CFB51 College Football Fan Community
The Power Five => Big Ten => Topic started by: OrangeAfroMan on July 01, 2022, 09:56:24 PM
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Hmmmm
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I say join the B1G. Independent and/or remaining tied to the ACC just won't cut it long term, and the B1G is a more natural fit than the SEC for numerous reasons.
Oh the times, they are a'changin'.
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The last year for Notre Dame's NBC-TV contract is 2025. Contracts can be renegotiated at any time. But this seems like the ideal time for Notre Dame to determine where it will land.
Conference realignments have tended to happen suddenly, and unexpectedly, then there is a cooling-off period. This next year is the cooling-off period. Notre Dame will test NBC on how much it will pay. And it will not be able to bankroll Notre Dame's independence.
The Big Ten, being the first nationwide sea to signing sea conference, Notre Dame will have the opportunity to select the 18th team to be given an invitation to jointly join Notre Dame in joining the Big Ten. Notre Dame will choose Stanford. Both will join for the 2026 season. Notre Dame will explain to its faithful that it has preserved its national schedule, as it can now play Maryland, Rutgers, USC, Stanford, and its traditional Big Ten rivals, too.
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Notre Dame could fall into the fold faster than I surmised above, or put Washington and Oregon in a holding pattern for another year: College football news: Big Ten waiting to hear from one major program - College Football HQ (si.com) (https://www.si.com/fannation/college/cfb-hq/ncaa-football/college-football-news-big-ten-expansion-notre-dame)
Big Ten reportedly waiting on Notre Dame before adding Washington, Oregon (yahoo.com) (https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/big-ten-reportedly-waiting-notre-192455372.html)
I continue to believe Notre Dame comes in with Stanford in 2026.
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Hawkinole,
This sounds very possible, perhaps very probable
I voted "stays Independent" just because this has always been the way of the Irish and I assume that would be their first choice
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How much of an audience does ND have nationally these days? Has it slid some?
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it may have slid some, but not much
like any helmet, a couple shiny seasons resulting in a playoff berth or near miss and the fans come right back in numbers
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How much of an audience does ND have nationally these days? Has it slid some?
It takes decades for that to really slide, until people age out (die). ND might as well be BYU to 25 year olds, but the Irish are still special to 50 year olds, who will continue watching and clicking for 30 more years.
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the Irish will always be "special" to Catholics
a sizable group
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It takes decades for that to really slide, until people age out (die). ND might as well be BYU to 25 year olds, but the Irish are still special to 50 year olds, who will continue watching and clicking for 30 more years.
Notre Dame was in the CFP 1.5 years ago and 3.5 years ago. They're plenty relevant to 25 year olds.
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much more so than BYU
and BYU's religious group isn't nearly as large
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Notre Dame was in the CFP 1.5 years ago and 3.5 years ago. They're plenty relevant to 25 year olds.
How'd that work out for them?
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the Irish will always be "special" to Catholics
a sizable group
I'll never understand this. The players aren't catholic. If they didn't go to ND, then it's not representative of them. I know, I know the retort, but still. Senseless.
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How'd that work out for them?
Same as every other team that didn't win the playoff. But they're still as relevant as the other top tier teams in recent years.
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How'd that work out for them?
Better than it has for Florida, Wisconsin, Texas, USC, PSU, UNL, etc.
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Every thread has way too much Fro, these days.
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Better than it has for Florida, Wisconsin, Texas, USC, PSU, UNL, etc.
sad but true
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Every thread has way too much Fro, these days.
Might be true, but in all fairness, OAM did actually start THIS thread...
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How much do you personally care where ND ends up? Do you want them in the B1G? Good addition from a money standpoint, and adds another power (BB) to the conference. But if they don't, do you view it as a significant missed opp? Or just meh?
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How much do you personally care where ND ends up? Do you want them in the B1G? Good addition from a money standpoint, and adds another power (BB) to the conference. But if they don't, do you view it as a significant missed opp? Or just meh?
Are you asking everyone, or just OP?
I'll answer with my opinion-- I don't personally care. They've always been independent, they've always had some sort-of rivalries with B1G schools like Michigan and Purdue, and some non-B1G rivalries with Stanford and USC. They could still maintain these games either as a B1G member, or as an independent.
I think these days a lot of people want to see ND fully join a conference, to eliminate the "special consideration" they perceive ND receives when it comes to CFP and/or bowl selection.
But personally, that's never bothered me so it's not a motivating factor for me.
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You don't live next to them and hear their bloviating
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You don't live next to them and hear their bloviating
...and making fun of us for rooting for them when they play the Wolverines.
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much more so than BYU
and BYU's religious group isn't nearly as large
Mormons aren't as numerous but I think that they are, on average, more dedicated to their religion.
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I personally do not care, at all. B1G, ACC, Indy, fine with me, whatever.
I know there are monetary considerations obviously, and it would probably value up whatever conference they joined. That's about it.
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Think pretty soon they’ll have no choice but to join the B1G.
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What is Notre Dame "worth"?
The good:
Notre Dame has a massive nationwide following. They also have a ton of "anti-fans", people like me who don't like them. These "anti-fans", however, are almost as good as normal fans from a ratings perspective. Ie, one viewer is one viewer regardless of whether they are watching to root for or against Notre Dame.
An illustration of Notre Dame's draw:
I own a lot of Ohio State gear. However, I only own a VERY few shirts specifically commemorating specific individual games. The few of that type that I do own are tied to games that won an NC or got tOSU to a NC game. The exceptions are that I own a shirt for each of Ohio State's four wins over Notre Dame.
Their undergraduate academics are very good and would certainly be a credit to the B1G.
They have significant history with multiple current or about-to-be league members:
- ND's second most frequent with 92 games is USC
- ND's third most frequent opponent with 84 games is Purdue
- ND's fourth most frequent opponent with 73 games is MSU
- ND's seventh most frequent opponent with 47 games is Northwestern
- ND's eighth most frequent opponent with 38 games is Michigan
- ND's fourteenth most frequent opponent with 25 games is Indiana
- ND's fifteenth most frequent opponent with 24 games is Iowa
- Penn State (19), Wisconsin (17), Nebraska (16), and Illinois (11) have also each played the Irish at least 11 times.
Only Ohio State (6), Minnesota (5), Rutgers (5), UCLA (4), and Maryland (2) have not frequently played the Irish.
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What is Notre Dame "worth":
The bad:
I continue to believe that as generations go by the fewer and fewer remaining catholics will continue to see their religion as less and less of a differentiating characteristic. That in turn makes them less likely to root for the Catholic school.
I tend to think that a lot of Notre Dame's "anti-fans" are anti-fans at least in part because of their perceived "special status" which essentially disappears the instant they join a league.
Their graduate/research programs are pathetic compared to the rest of the league.
While their national draw is great for overall ratings it doesn't necessarily deliver any metro areas that the B1G doesn't already control.
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It would be a nice addition for the B1G moneywise, and a great addition for the ACC. I agree sooner or very sooner they join either. The ACC is a good match academically with some schools that are quite good undergrad but not great grad.
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What is Notre Dame "worth":
The bad:
I continue to believe that as generations go by the fewer and fewer remaining catholics will continue to see their religion as less and less of a differentiating characteristic. That in turn makes them less likely to root for the Catholic school.
I tend to think that a lot of Notre Dame's "anti-fans" are anti-fans at least in part because of their perceived "special status" which essentially disappears the instant they join a league.
Their graduate/research programs are pathetic compared to the rest of the league.
While their national draw is great for overall ratings it doesn't necessarily deliver any metro areas that the B1G doesn't already control.
Agree overall with your points. I'll just point out that in the post-cable-subscriber-model world, "controlling" metro areas doesn't really matter, as far as choosing which schools to add. Total television ratings/fan engagement are most important, now.
At least, until something truly disrupts the current broadcasting model. It'll be interesting to see if/when/how the streaming services will, or won't, change the overall model.
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Wouldn't make any sense for them to join the SEC. Geographically....the Big Ten makes far more sense....including two in-state Big Ten teams. I don't think they have any rivalries with any SEC teams....while they do with USC, Purdue, Michigan, MSU, and Northwestern. They also have a serious hockey program and already compete in the Big Ten hockey conference.
Basically....once ND decides to join a conference....I'd say there's little chance they go to the SEC over the Big Ten.
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Wouldn't make any sense for them to join the SEC. Geographically....the Big Ten makes far more sense....including two in-state Big Ten teams. I don't think they have any rivalries with any SEC teams....while they do with USC, Purdue, Michigan, MSU, and Northwestern. They also have a serious hockey program and already compete in the Big Ten hockey conference.
Basically....once ND decides to join a conference....I'd say there's little chance they go to the SEC over the Big Ten.
Agree with all of this, 100%.
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I'd agree the SEC is not a real option here. The B1G brings the money, and they have a bit of history with the ACC who would love to have them fully on board.
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Wouldn't make any sense for them to join the SEC. Geographically....the Big Ten makes far more sense....including two in-state Big Ten teams. I don't think they have any rivalries with any SEC teams....while they do with USC, Purdue, Michigan, MSU, and Northwestern. They also have a serious hockey program and already compete in the Big Ten hockey conference.
Basically....once ND decides to join a conference....I'd say there's little chance they go to the SEC over the Big Ten.
You're arguing geography 3 days after USC and UCLA joined the Big Ten.
Mkay.
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I could argue geology, I suppose, but I resist throwing rocks. The sedimentary nature of my lifestyle prohibits it. I try and be gneiss. I suppose this will metamorph into a chili thread.
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You're arguing geography 3 days after USC and UCLA joined the Big Ten.
Mkay.
It isn't an argument. It's an observation. One of the three I made. Got anything to say about Notre Dame's rivalries? The fact that two other in state D1 football programs are in the Big Ten? That Notre Dame has a hockey program and competes in the Big Ten hockey conference?
But thanks for the input. High level stuff.
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well, arguing geography is in play, but it's now one or the other
Big or SEC
those are the choices
so, it does matter a bit
the money is very similar in either case so geography might be the deciding factor or academics or something else
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well, arguing geography is in play, but it's now one or the other
Big or SEC
those are the choices
so, it does matter a bit
the money is very similar in either case so geography might be the deciding factor or academics or something else
Right. As I said....there are multiple factors. For Notre Dame....geographical distance probably isn't a giant one. Even hockey probably isn't a deal breaker. But I'd say the fact that they have rivalries with USC, Michigan, MSU, and Purdue is huge. Preserve those rivalries and expand them by joining the Big Ten....or potentially lose them altogether.
With the super conferences coming....lots of historical rivalries are going to be tossed out. Don't see why ND wouldn't have that as one of their top considerations.
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notre dame seems like a no brainer to join the BIG
if not, probably the ACC to put things off for a few years until the next network contract negotiation
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It is kind of funny that most of the posters that bellyached about Rutgers and Maryland being too far out of the footprint are elated at USC and UCLA.
It's all about the branding.
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I could argue geology, I suppose, but I resist throwing rocks.
You can't even throw gravel Niekro
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It is kind of funny that most of the posters that bellyached about Rutgers and Maryland being too far out of the footprint are elated at USC and UCLA.
If you're going to reach at least grab something worth it
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It isn't an argument. It's an observation. One of the three I made. Got anything to say about Notre Dame's rivalries? The fact that two other in state D1 football programs are in the Big Ten? That Notre Dame has a hockey program and competes in the Big Ten hockey conference?
But thanks for the input. High level stuff.
Hockey is about as relevant as fuck-all, so I'm not sure why you bothered typing about it.
Rivalries.....hmmmm....rivalries. If only there was a way for a team to schedule whoever they wanted to play for 1/3 of their season. Hmmm.
Damn, I got nothing.
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WAIT! I GOT IT! Non-conference games!!! Oh shit! ND has no conference rivals it'd be leaving, as it's not in a conference!!! It could play Stanford and USC and Navy whenever it wanted! And Purdue! Michigan! MSU!
Sweet! It's a non-issue. FANTASTIC!
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Hockey is about as relevant as fuck-all, so I'm not sure why you bothered typing about it.
Rivalries.....hmmmm....rivalries. If only there was a way for a team to schedule whoever they wanted to play for 1/3 of their season. Hmmm.
Damn, I got nothing.
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WAIT! I GOT IT! Non-conference games!!! Oh shit! ND has no conference rivals it'd be leaving, as it's not in a conference!!! It could play Stanford and USC and Navy whenever it wanted! And Purdue! Michigan! MSU!
Sweet! It's a non-issue. FANTASTIC!
What do you think happens when conferences go to 20 teams? Will the conference schedules expand? The answer to that riddle is....YES. Then you have to consider whether teams will want to schedule other high end P5 opponents with their two or three non-con games. Hell....the SEC is still scheduling FCS teams towards the backend of the year as a faux bye week. But yeah....Notre Dame is going to schedule USC and Michigan to go along with a ten game SEC schedule. Or....they could simply play their rivals as part of the conference....which would make a ton more sense.
Also....just because you've never seen ice and cannot fathom how hockey works doesn't mean that the rest of the country doesn't care about it at all.
lol....come back to reality.
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never understood this
nebraska is playing Oklahoma this year and played them last season
why not 1998 and 1999?
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Hockey is about as relevant as fuck-all, so I'm not sure why you bothered typing about it.
Rivalries.....hmmmm....rivalries. If only there was a way for a team to schedule whoever they wanted to play for 1/3 of their season. Hmmm.
Damn, I got nothing.
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WAIT! I GOT IT! Non-conference games!!! Oh shit! ND has no conference rivals it'd be leaving, as it's not in a conference!!! It could play Stanford and USC and Navy whenever it wanted! And Purdue! Michigan! MSU!
Sweet! It's a non-issue. FANTASTIC!
They are going to maintain all six of those annual OOC rivalries? Is the SEC going to dial it back to just six conference games again?
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They are going to maintain all six of those annual OOC rivalries? Is the SEC going to dial it back to just six conference games again?
I feel like the next argument will be that rivalries really don't matter. :34:
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They can schedule whoever they want OOC. That's the point.
Back to the point, I don't recall suggesting ND is likely to join the SEC. I merely put it as a choice to vote on.
But it has to turn into a whole big argument. You're arguing a ghost.
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I suspected that you didn't actually think that Notre Dame was going to the SEC.
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No one bothered asking which option I voted for, did they?
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I was simply trying to give you the benefit of the doubt in hopes that you weren't actually THAT dumb. But you are a pretty big SEC honk, so there was still a slim possibility that you had actually talked yourself into it.
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Now I do think it would be a shrewd coup of sorts for the SEC to grab ND and UNC......I think that would be an ultimate trump card, but of course it's highly unlikely.
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and if that happened, you would blame the SEC for the end of college football as we have known it?
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I'd look at it like the little brother overstepping his bounds, grabbing USC/UCLA and the big brother saying, "okay, you want to play THAT game?"
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so, what's the big brother's next move???
ND is the only other value
ya REALLY think big bother can get the Irish???
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I'd look at it like the little brother overstepping his bounds, grabbing USC/UCLA and the big brother saying, "okay, you want to play THAT game?"
The SEC grabbing the two most powerful Big 12 programs....and thus decimating an entire conference is cool. The Big Ten doing something similar is "overstepping his bounds".
If you didn't have double standards....I'm guessing you wouldn't have standards at all.
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It's all about footprint and the status quo. The SEC didn't do anything radical compared to what had already previously happened.
What the B1G just did cannot be described as such. You guys are in full-blown denial mode right now.
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Eh, both conferences made moves solely for money and sold out tradition along the way.
No difference between the two.
And every single person on this thread is a fan of a school that is complicit.
Acting otherwise is disingenuous, and/or stupid.
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The breadth of the SEC, Columbia, SC and Austin, TX are 1100 miles apart.
It's twice that distance from Columbus, OH to Los Angeles.
What the B1G just did is a paradigm shift. To deny that is to lie.
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so, what's the big brother's next move???
ND is the only other value
ya REALLY think big bother can get the Irish???
Probably not.
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The breadth of the SEC, Columbia, SC and Austin, TX are 1100 miles apart.
It's twice that distance from Columbus, OH to Los Angeles.
What the B1G just did is a paradigm shift. To deny that is to lie.
Still divided neatly along Civil War lines. The geography hasn't been broken yet.
The Confederacy was just kinda tiny, compared to the Union. Probably why y'all lost.
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geography in this day and age is a paradigm shift???
a few thousand miles???
So, if big brother can't pull the last jewel, is he still big brother?
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Still divided neatly along Civil War lines. The geography hasn't been broken yet.
The Confederacy was just kinda tiny, compared to the Union. Probably why y'all lost.
where does LA fall in line with the civil war and slavery?
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The SEC is more responsible than any in what is happening. They steamrolled an entire conference in their move to becoming a super conference. Big Ten is simply following suit.
To say otherwise is to be living in denial.
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where does LA fall in line with the civil war and slavery?
Southern California tended toward secessionist. Northern California did not.
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damn, we're living with racists
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The SEC has a better railroad system now...
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The SEC is more responsible than any in what is happening. They steamrolled an entire conference in their move to becoming a super conference. Big Ten is simply following suit.
To say otherwise is to be living in denial.
Meh, the B1G realignment taking PSU in 1990 prompted the SEC's reactive movement to take Arkansas and South Carolina in 1992.
The B1G announcement of realignment in 2009 and subsequent taking of Nebraska in 2010, prompted the SEC's response to take A&M and Mizzou in 2011.
The 2022 move of Texas and OU to the SEC, is the first time the SEC actually moved before the B1G.
So like I said before, both conferences and all schools associated with either conference, are equally complicit.
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I agree and most other rational folks will agree
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Meh, the B1G realignment taking PSU in 1990 prompted the SEC's reactive movement to take Arkansas and South Carolina in 1992.
The B1G announcement of realignment in 2009 and subsequent taking of Nebraska in 2010, prompted the SEC's response to take A&M and Mizzou in 2011.
The 2022 move of Texas and OU to the SEC, is the first time the SEC actually moved before the B1G.
So like I said before, both conferences and all schools associated with either conference, are equally complicit.
I mean....Penn State was an independent....so it's not really the same thing. Nebraska was taken to establish divisions and a championship game. But yes....basically all of these moves have been to maximize revenue. Not for what is in the best interest of the league. Neither the Big Ten nor the SEC are innocent.
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I mean....Penn State was an independent....so it's not really the same thing. Nebraska was taken to establish divisions and a championship game. But yes....basically all of these moves have been to maximize revenue. Not for what is in the best interest of the league. Neither the Big Ten nor the SEC are innocent.
That's my only point here. Pointing fingers is silly when they're all just doing the same thing, doing what they can to increase revenue.
This is the blessing, and the curse, of the 1984 court cases against the NCAA that wrested television rights away from that organization, and granted them back to the schools, or rather the schools' designated agents-- the conferences.
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So OU and UGA are to blame!?!?! :96:
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so, we blame Georgia and Oklahoma
and therefore, Bobby Stoops
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I'm just going to blame the Sun Belt and Conference USA. And why not toss a little of that blame towards the Big Sky and the SWAC too....while I'm at it.
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Eastern Michigan started all of this.
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Agree overall with your points. I'll just point out that in the post-cable-subscriber-model world, "controlling" metro areas doesn't really matter, as far as choosing which schools to add. Total television ratings/fan engagement are most important, now.
At least, until something truly disrupts the current broadcasting model. It'll be interesting to see if/when/how the streaming services will, or won't, change the overall model.
You may be right, I don't know what controlling media markets will be worth going forward.
It clearly isn't what it once was but I don't think it is completely irrelevant either.
I don't know how much of this there is, but I'm thinking of a guy who isn't a serious CFB fan, maybe more of an NFL fan but when he finishes mowing his yard on Saturday and flips on the TV he'll watch whatever is on. I think media market "control" matters for that guy but I have no idea how many of him there are.
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I mean....Penn State was an independent....so it's not really the same thing. Nebraska was taken to establish divisions and a championship game. But yes....basically all of these moves have been to maximize revenue. Not for what is in the best interest of the league. Neither the Big Ten nor the SEC are innocent.
South Carolina was also independent, and Arky was about to be with the SWC folding.
The ACC truly started the trend of raiding other conferences when they trashed the Big East. FSU was independent so it did not start there.
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I was thinking if Penn State was voted into the Big East, it would have provided some stability. That being said, the poaching among conferences and/or the seeking out greener pastures by individual programs was born of some conferences being stronger and others being weaker.
So if the SWC could have just handled their business and not have been such a lawless mess, maybe none of it would have happened.
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With the expanded Big East in '91 - Miami, VT, Pitt, Syracuse....with Penn St being there as well, it might have even lured ND in. If that had happened, I don't think we'd have these waves of realignment dominoes falling every so often.
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I was thinking if Penn State was voted into the Big East, it would have provided some stability. That being said, the poaching among conferences and/or the seeking out greener pastures by individual programs was born of some conferences being stronger and others being weaker.
So if the SWC could have just handled their business and not have been such a lawless mess, maybe none of it would have happened.
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With the expanded Big East in '91 - Miami, VT, Pitt, Syracuse....with Penn St being there as well, it might have even lured ND in. If that had happened, I don't think we'd have these waves of realignment dominoes falling every so often.
That would have never happened because PSU joined the Big Ten before the BE was formalized.
JoePa wanted to do a conference with Pitt, VT, WVU, Cuse, Rutgers, and BC and the idea was shot down.
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What is Notre Dame "worth"?
The good:
Notre Dame has a massive nationwide following. They also have a ton of "anti-fans", people like me who don't like them. These "anti-fans", however, are almost as good as normal fans from a ratings perspective. Ie, one viewer is one viewer regardless of whether they are watching to root for or against Notre Dame.
An illustration of Notre Dame's draw:
I own a lot of Ohio State gear. However, I only own a VERY few shirts specifically commemorating specific individual games. The few of that type that I do own are tied to games that won an NC or got tOSU to a NC game. The exceptions are that I own a shirt for each of Ohio State's four wins over Notre Dame.
Their undergraduate academics are very good and would certainly be a credit to the B1G.
They have significant history with multiple current or about-to-be league members:
- ND's second most frequent with 92 games is USC
- ND's third most frequent opponent with 84 games is Purdue
- ND's fourth most frequent opponent with 73 games is MSU
- ND's seventh most frequent opponent with 47 games is Northwestern
- ND's eighth most frequent opponent with 38 games is Michigan
- ND's fourteenth most frequent opponent with 25 games is Indiana
- ND's fifteenth most frequent opponent with 24 games is Iowa
- Penn State (19), Wisconsin (17), Nebraska (16), and Illinois (11) have also each played the Irish at least 11 times.
Only Ohio State (6), Minnesota (5), Rutgers (5), UCLA (4), and Maryland (2) have not frequently played the Irish.
I remember as a kid in a Catholic grade school (1-8) one of the 8th graders singing the ND Fight Song in the locker room. Sort of neat, but we were in Dubuque, Iowa. I was a Hawkeye fan, but lived in a Catholic community with a lot of Notre Dame people. Notre Dame played Iowa in Iowa's rivalry week for about 20-years, and after 1968, the series suddenly stopped.
In 1963 the game was canceled. One of my now buddies who is a mentor, was in law school then. He went to the Iowa Memorial Union and obtained a game day program from a big stack of programs since after JFK was assassinated the game was called off - it was supposed to have been an Iowa home game. The program cover hangs in his office, along with his season ticket.
After I attended an FSU @ ND game I found that the same cover of the Iowa game day program from 1963 for a game that wasn't played, also hangs in Notre Dame Stadium, but it is bigger. I took this photo in 2018 as I left an FSU disaster. As much as I hate Notre Dame, it does suck losing your rival. It is sort of like, your brother vacated, and never said good-bye.
Notre Dame is worth a lot for the Big Ten. I would like to think Iowa is worth something to Notre Dame, but it isn't.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52195215494_88dcd652e7_o.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2nwj87w)46222709_10212179490391458_6851366997771419648_n (https://flic.kr/p/2nwj87w) by Mark Roeder (https://www.flickr.com/photos/82428620@N00/), on Flickr
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It was Notre Dame snubbing the Big 10. They were stuck on 11, and had to get the next best Midwestern brand in order to have a CCG, and that was Nebraska.
Then the divisions would have been really imbalanced with OSU, Michigan, Penn St and Notre Dame, all in the B1G East; with no Rutgers or Maryland. B1G West would be the same, minus Nebraska.
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In Kinnick Stadium the following relief is posted of Nile Kinnick's winning TD against ND in 1939. Iowa-Notre Dame was a storied rivalry that disappeared. Iowa State replaced Notre Dame as a nonconference rivalry game. It is not a quid-pro-quo. It is a step down.
This is not my photo, so you must click on it:
KinnickNDrelief - Kinnick Stadium - Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinnick_Stadium#/media/File:KinnickNDrelief.jpg)
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That would have never happened because PSU joined the Big Ten before the BE was formalized.
JoePa wanted to do a conference with Pitt, VT, WVU, Cuse, Rutgers, and BC and the idea was shot down.
The Big East voted on Penn State joining in 1982, for non-football sports. They missed it by 1 vote. If PSU was in the Big East for basketball et al, when the Big East football conference came to be, PSU would naturally have been in it.
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Could ND reasonably stay Indy at this point? I suppose it's possible of course, but you'd say unlikely very?
$$$$$
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The Big East voted on Penn State joining in 1982, for non-football sports. They missed it by 1 vote. If PSU was in the Big East for basketball et al, when the Big East football conference came to be, PSU would naturally have been in it.
About 10ish years ago I think it was ESPN that ran a retrospective on this. Paterno wanted an Eastern all sports league and the Big East missed becoming such by one vote.
I think that is probably the most consequential realignment decision of the last 50 years because most of what has happened since would have been different if PSU was anchoring an expanded Big East.
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Cons:
Staying independent is very important to Notre Dame.
There would be a significant buyout to separate from the ACC.
Pros:
Rivalries are important to Notre Dame, most of their rivals are/will be in the B1G.
Staying relevant to any national playoff is important, may not be possible as an independent.
Money or staying in the black is important to Notre Dame, they stand to make about twice what they're getting from NBC.
Notre Dame has already joined the Big Ten for hockey.
Notre Dame has already kind of joined a conference for football.
It would seem the logical thing to do would be for the Irish to join the B1G. But this is Notre Dame we're talking about. As prickly and narcissistic school as there is. I don't see the Irish joining the Big Ten at this time. I wish they would if that would mean a frequent if not annual Michigan-Notre Dame game.
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This half in half out stuff is weird to me. It comes down to money, I think, no matter how narcissistic and special they are, and the B1G is money.
They have to go 12-0 to be considered for the playoff in most years. A conference team obviously can go 12-1 and get in.
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money will eventually push the Irish into a conference, unless they decide to go the way of the Ivy League schools
I'm just not sure it will be within the next 5 years
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@Hawkinole (https://www.cfb51.com/index.php?action=profile;u=25) has mentioned this Iowa/ND rivalry and it is something I had never heard of other than in his posts on this board so I looked up the history. They have played 24 times with Notre Dame holding a 13-8-3 advantage:
- Iowa won the first three, a one-off in Iowa City in 1921 and a H&H in 1939/40
- They played annually for 20 years from 1945-1964 with the exception of 1963 (canceled due to JFK assassination, see above from Hawkinole). These games were in October initially then moved to November and rivalry week starting in 1949. Notre Dame held a 11-5-3 advantage in these games.
- They played a H&H in 1967/68 with Notre Dame winning both games.
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another thing ND enjoys about independence...
They can cut off an often played opponent at anytime for any reason
this also happened with Nebraska back in 1925 after 11 straight seasons
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Georgia Tech wouldn't play either Mississippi schools for decades while in the SEC. Of course, "rules" back then weren't.
The odd history between Tech, Mississippi State, Ole Miss (ajc.com) (https://www.ajc.com/sports/college-football/the-odd-history-between-tech-mississippi-state-ole-miss/zUwORXYzjdL2W1z4HmSsPJ/)
During his legendary 22-year tenure as Georgia Tech coach, Bobby Dodd took his team across the Southeast, to Dallas to play SMU, to South Bend, Ind., for Notre Dame and across the country to play USC.
But, though Tech was an SEC member for most of Dodd’s career, he never deigned to play Mississippi State, the Yellow Jackets’ opponent in the Dec. 31 Orange Bowl. Tech played Ole Miss but twice, once in a bowl game and once in a regular-season game scheduled by Dodd’s predecessor, William Alexander.
“Whatever is there to go to Mississippi for?” Dodd was quoted as saying. “We like to take our fans to exciting places and Mississippi isn’t one.”
Tech was not the only SEC team to take a pass on one or both of the Mississippi schools, though none to the same degree. Georgia has only played Mississippi State 23 times and didn’t play at all between 1915 and 1949. Vanderbilt and Mississippi State didn’t play each other between 1943 and 1969. Florida and Ole Miss have played each other 23 times, facing each other just eight times between 1936 and 1971.
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Only tangentially related to the topic of this thread but, Iowa's Last regular season game (not including games at Hawaii and the goofy COVID year) for 100 years:
- Nebraska, 2011-present
- Minnesota, 2005-2010
- Wisconsin, 2003-2004
- Minnesota, 2002
- Iowa State, 2001
- Minnesota, 1983-2000
- Michigan State, 1973-1982
- Illinois, 1967-1972
- Miami, FL, 1966
- NCST, 1965
- Notre Dame, 1951-1964 (not played in 1963)
- Miami, FL, 1950
- Notre Dame, 1949
- Boston University, 1948
- Minnesota, 1946-1947
- Nebraska, 1945
- Iowa Pre-Flight, 1944
- Nebraska, 1943
- Michigan, 1942
- Nebraska, 1941
- Illinois, 1940
- Northwestern, 1939
- Nebraska, 1937-1938
- Temple, 1936
- Northwestern, 1935
- Ohio State, 1934 (This was the last year before THE GAME was moved to the end of the season)
- Nebraska, 1933
- Northwestern, 1931-1932
- Nebraska, 1930
- Michigan, 1928-1929
- Northwestern, 1926-1927
- Southern California, 1925
- Michigan, 1924
- Northwestern, 1921-1923
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Just put everyone in a few conferences. Then break them up into divisions that look suspiciously like 1991 conferences.
Who says no?
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Yeah, that seems to be where it's headed, more or less, we end up back in 1991.
I have thought 12 was a good number for a conference, 6 on a side. Are any programs in danger of being tossed? I don't think so.
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Just put everyone in a few conferences. Then break them up into divisions that look suspiciously like 1991 conferences.
Who says no?
That's exactly what I suggested
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Only tangentially related to the topic of this thread but, Iowa's Last regular season game (not including games at Hawaii and the goofy COVID year) for 100 years:
- Nebraska, 2011-present
- Minnesota, 2005-2010
- Wisconsin, 2003-2004
- Minnesota, 2002
- Iowa State, 2001
- Minnesota, 1983-2000
- Michigan State, 1973-1982
- Illinois, 1967-1972
- Miami, FL, 1966
- NCST, 1965
- Notre Dame, 1951-1964 (not played in 1963)
- Miami, FL, 1950
- Notre Dame, 1949
- Boston University, 1948
- Minnesota, 1946-1947
- Nebraska, 1945
- Iowa Pre-Flight, 1944
- Nebraska, 1943
- Michigan, 1942
- Nebraska, 1941
- Illinois, 1940
- Northwestern, 1939
- Nebraska, 1937-1938
- Temple, 1936
- Northwestern, 1935
- Ohio State, 1934 (This was the last year before THE GAME was moved to the end of the season)
- Nebraska, 1933
- Northwestern, 1931-1932
- Nebraska, 1930
- Michigan, 1928-1929
- Northwestern, 1926-1927
- Southern California, 1925
- Michigan, 1924
- Northwestern, 1921-1923
In 2001 the Iowa State game was moved to the end of the season because of 9-11. So that one should maybe get the Covid treatment.
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In 2001 the Iowa State game was moved to the end of the season because of 9-11. So that one should maybe get the Covid treatment.
I forgot that was why but you are right. Their last scheduled game in 2001 was Minnesota same as all other seasons from 1983-2002.
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does anyone think that Iowa will be a regular opponent for ND, if ND joins the Big?
it would seem to me that with USC and UCLA joining the West with Iowa, if ND were to join, they would end up in the East.
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does anyone think that Iowa will be a regular opponent for ND, if ND joins the Big?
it would seem to me that with USC and UCLA joining the West with Iowa, if ND were to join, they would end up in the East.
Doubtful.
That said, with a 20 team conference I think you HAVE to have pods. If you went with divisions of 10 then even with nine league games you'd still never play any of the teams from the other division.
I think you'd need four five-team pods that rotated to form divisions.
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why do you or should you try to play the other teams in a 20 team conference?
10 teams in a division - 9 conference games. Round robin schedule for the division. The winners of each division meet in the champ game.
the winner of the champ game plays the winner of the SEC for the MNC
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@Hawkinole (https://www.cfb51.com/index.php?action=profile;u=25) has mentioned this Iowa/ND rivalry and it is something I had never heard of other than in his posts on this board so I looked up the history. They have played 24 times with Notre Dame holding a 13-8-3 advantage:
- Iowa won the first three, a one-off in Iowa City in 1921 and a H&H in 1939/40
- They played annually for 20 years from 1945-1964 with the exception of 1963 (canceled due to JFK assassination, see above from Hawkinole). These games were in October initially then moved to November and rivalry week starting in 1949. Notre Dame held a 11-5-3 advantage in these games.
- They played a H&H in 1967/68 with Notre Dame winning both games.
I don't want to overstate anything. The rivalry week games were Iowa's rivalry week. Notre Dame typically played USC the following week.
I believe the rivalry ended in part due to the "fainting Irish" game in the 1950s when Notre Dame, ranked #1, feigned injuries in the final seconds of each half when they were driving near the goal line, to get timeouts when they had none. Notre Dame scored two touchdowns in this manner. The game ended in a tie. Notre Dame was excoriated by Grantland Rice. Iowa ended the season 5-3-1, but was ranked #9. Maryland won the MNC at 10-1, and Notre Dame was #2 at 9-0-1 because of the fiasco. Maryland's loss was in its bowl game. Back then the AP final poll was before the bowl games.
Forest Evashevski was Iowa's coach in 1953. He was Iowa's athletic director when the series ended, and my suspicion is it was ended in part because of 1953. He didn't forget a slight.
After the game he said: "When the One Great Scorer comes to write against our name, He won't write whether we won or lost, but how come we got gypped at Notre Dame."[25] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forest_Evashevski#cite_note-Maly,_p._131-25) Evashevski said, "Don't celebrate a tie; celebrate a victory. I was there Saturday, and if ever a team won a game, Iowa won a victory at Notre Dame Saturday." School officials eventually ordered Evashevski to apologize for his remarks. Forest Evashevski - Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forest_Evashevski) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forest_Evashevski#cite_note-28)
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I forgot that was why but you are right. Their last scheduled game in 2001 was Minnesota same as all other seasons from 1983-2002.
Minnesota is regarded by many in Iowa as being Iowa's rival. The Iowa-Minnesota border in Iowa's 2nd longest border behind the Iowa-Missouri border - but Missouri is seldom played.
When Hayden Fry was coach, and Lou Holtz was Minnesota's coach it was decided this might become a meaningful game, and the Iowa-Minnesota game was moved to rivalry week, which worked out well. Iowa fans travel, and the HHH dome made for a fair weather game at the end of the season. But Lou Holtz left.
The Wisconsin game is also a big one, and the Big Ten decided Wisconsin-Iowa made the best rivalry week game for Iowa. Then Nebraska joined, and that ended the Wisconsin rivalry week game.
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Back to Notre Dame. It appears their athletic department is holding tight to independence, for now. Notre Dame will need some kind of inducement to join the Big Ten. Not sure what that will be.
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Until there's some sort of playoff requiring conference affiliation, what do they care?
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I chose ND stays independent. Because they like it. And because they still have as much access to the playoff/NC as they ever have.
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I predict the B12 adds UA, ASU, Utah, CU, UW, and Oregon.
ND stays independent.
The B1G adds Stanford and Cal.
The ACC freaks out and becomes a free-for-all.
The SEC adds FSU, Miami, Clemson and there's a fight over UNC, with the B1G.
The B1G adds Pitt, Syracuse, Virginia, and UNC.
The SEC adds GT or NCST or VT.
The B12 adds WSU/ORST or SDST/Boise
.
(https://i.imgur.com/4gcndYd.jpg)
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I also think as EVERYONE gets much richer and ND falls behind, they'll start going 4-8 and 3-9 every year about 8-10 years from now.
They will have chosen poorly.
(https://i.imgur.com/g8UBVaK.jpg)
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Notre Dame will need some kind of inducement to join the Big Ten. Not sure what that will be.
How about this 🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕🖕 from each team in the conference 🖕🖕 and this for when USC/UCLA join
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I chose ND stays independent. Because they like it. And because they still have as much access to the playoff/NC as they ever have.
Not with the conferences being condensed,they may stay Indy but they'll get bounced from playoff consideration.The Committee is tired of their automatc "L"
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I chose ND stays independent. Because they like it. And because they still have as much access to the playoff/NC as they ever have.
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I predict the B12 adds UA, ASU, Utah, CU, UW, and Oregon.
ND stays independent.
The B1G adds Stanford and Cal.
The ACC freaks out and becomes a free-for-all.
The SEC adds FSU, Miami, Clemson and there's a fight over UNC, with the B1G.
The B1G adds Pitt, Syracuse, Virginia, and UNC.
The SEC adds GT or NCST or VT.
The B12 adds WSU/ORST or SDST/Boise
.
[img width=500 height=311.992]https://i.imgur.com/4gcndYd.jpg[/img]
(https://c.tenor.com/eC0kei6wQ7oAAAAM/alright-jennifer-lawrence.gif)
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i think they stay ind as long as they have access to the po and major bowls. eventually they will be forced into one i think (?). i do not think it’s the smart play but they seem to value their independence enough to do it - it’s been more lucrative to join a league for awhile now. i also think circumstances will dictate which league they end up in.
the $ could force their hand as the gap continues to widen.
i wouldn’t discount the sec as a player in this. mainly bc at this point there doesn’t seem to be any limit to what tv can necessarily orchestrate in the background anymore regardless of what otherwise makes more sense (big ten or acc if the latter can survive).
guessing the big ten waits them out for the time being.
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As long as the ACC exists and/or good programs aren't gobbled up by another conference, ND can be independent. There's talk of FSU, Clemson, Miami, UNC, UVA VT going here or there, but in the eastern half of the country (if that still matters), there are still decent programs that are unlikely to just fade away.
GT, NCST, Pitt, etc aren't the same as Wazzou or Oregon State. They matter and unless any future playoff requires a conference championship, these programs may hang on. They're not the steak or potatoes, but they're not nothing, either. ND is an island and if there's an archipelago of teams like it, it may extend their isolation.
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A lot of ACC schools such as Duke, Virginia, Georgia Tech, UNC, don't seem like good academic fits for the SEC.
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Ultimately I think that Notre Dame will feel it necessary to join either the B1G or the SEC for reasons of money and CFP access but once they join I think they'll regret it.
As baffling as this is to me, I realize that some posters here actually think that Cincinnati was a legitimate top-5 team last year but they weren't and Cincy last year makes for a great comparison.
In 2021 Cincinnati beat Indiana in a competitive game:
- Indiana led at the half.
- Indiana led going into the fourth quarter.
- Indiana was either ahead or within one score for all but the final 2:37.
- Cincinnati won by 14.
In 2021 Cincinnati beat Notre Dame in a less competitive game:
- Notre Dame never led.
- After halftime Notre Dame was only within one score for about three minutes.
- Cincinnati won by 11.
Indiana went 0-9 in the B1G in 2021 with losses:
- To tOSU by 47
- To Purdue by 37
- To Rutgers by 35
- To Iowa by 28
- To Penn State by 24
- To Michigan by 22
- To Minnesota by 21
- To MSU by 5
- To UMD by 3
I'm not saying that Notre Dame would have gone 0-9 in the B1G in 2021 but they would have been lucky to finish over .500.
I also think that in the long run Notre Dame will not be anywhere near as valuable as they currently seem because the very act of taking them will largely eliminate their "special" status which is one of the primary drivers of their existing value/ratings draw.
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@Temp430 (https://www.cfb51.com/index.php?action=profile;u=131) Sure, but it depends on the point of view....maybe the SEC wants more Floridas and fewer Arkansas'. Or perhaps UVA or GT would like to be among the best within its conference academically, instead of middle-of-the-road.
If an ACC school doesn't want to be mired in academic mediocrity, it may have to, with no other options.
But you're right.
Clemson is more SEC-y. FSU, too. Idk about Miami.
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Notre Dame is trying to squeeze $75 million per year out of NBC. The Irish will schedule some Big 12 games.
https://twitter.com/dennisdoddcbs/status/1549113956169572354 (https://twitter.com/dennisdoddcbs/status/1549113956169572354)
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they might get it from the LIV Golf league
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Or perhaps UVA or GT would like to be among the best within its conference academically, instead of middle-of-the-road.
Isn't UVA considered one of the top public universities academically in the nation? Wouldn't they be near the top in any football conference?
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Isn't UVA considered one of the top public universities academically in the nation? Wouldn't they be near the top in any football conference?
From what I've gathered here, over the course of numerous realignment threads, is that UVA is similar to ND - great undergrad academics (and rankings), but not so much on the research bit.
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I think their research bit is quite a bit better than NDs, and overall they rank pretty high among publics, and are AAU. ND is not.
ND is more akin to say Miami. UVA is more akin to Michigan or UCalBerkley. UVA would rank near the top of any football conference.
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Since Notre Dame gets a new media rights contract in 2025, I expect them to make some kind of move in 2024 (we have to be patient). The Irish seem to like their Independence, so unless pressure (real or imagined) is applied, why should they change?
They have to think they might get left out of future playoff opportunities, if they don’t join, one of the two proposed super-conferences. So, in order to motivate ND, the B1G and SEC should act publicly, like they are fully behind the Super-Conference idea, and those that don’t join, “will be on the outside looking in”. Once Notre Dame moves, it should start an avalanche of realignment activity, the collapse of the ACC among them.
I think that this is very bad for the future of the sport, but wonderful if you are a television executive.
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From what I've gathered here, over the course of numerous realignment threads, is that UVA is similar to ND - great undergrad academics (and rankings), but not so much on the research bit.
I think their research bit is quite a bit better than NDs, and overall they rank pretty high among publics, and are AAU. ND is not.
ND is more akin to say Miami. UVA is more akin to Michigan or UCalBerkley. UVA would rank near the top of any football conference.
I looked this up a long time ago and from what I remember you two pretty well have it. UVA is somewhat like ND in that their undergraduate academics are stellar (would be one of the best in any league) and their graduate/research programs are MUCH better than ND's but still nowhere close to their undergraduate rankings.
An interesting wrinkle is VaTech. VaTech's graduate/research programs IIRC, are better than UVA's which indicates that VaTech may be a better B1G fit than UVA.
UVA isn't "akin to Michigan or Cal-Berkley" in that UVA's research is nowhere close to either of those schools. OTOH, it isn't as weak as ND either.
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The are akin to those two schools in university rankings, which could imply their undergrad must be SUPERB to compensate for inferior graduate research programs.
Engineering schools tend to be better in graduate programs than "liberal arts" schools of course, Tech is better than UGA for example. UGA is pretty good undergrad and not nearly that good graduate.
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An interesting update:
UVA has surpassed VaTech in research spending. Back in 2014 VaTech was ranked #39 while UVA was #61 but UVA moved ahead in 2018 and in the 2020 (most recent available) rankings UVA was #44 while VaTech was #49.
Notre Dame was #109.
Notre Dame's academics:
According to USNWR undergraduate rankings, Notre Dame is #19. In the B1G that would be second best behind only #9 Northwestern. It is also behind #6 Chicago but Chicago isn't an athletic member so second best among those competing in B1G sports.
Their research spending, however, would be dead last and it isn't even close. Notre Dame ranks #109 nationally with 2020 research spending of $227,535M. That is almost a hundred million less than the B1G's current basement of #81 Nebraska.
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Ranking of schools that compete in major sports by research spending:
- #2 Michigan
- #5 Washington
- #7 UCLA
- #8 Wisconsin
- #10 Stanford
- #11 DOOK
- #13 UNC
- #14 aTm
- #15 Pitt
- #16 Maryland
- #19 GaTech
- #20 Minnesota
- #22 Penn State
- #24 Ohio State
- #26 Florida
- #27 USC
- #29 Northwestern
- #30 UC-Berkley
- #31 Vanderbilt
- #34 Texas*
- #35 Arizona
- #37 Indiana
- #38 Michigan State
- #39 Illinois
- #40 Rutgers
*It was brought to my attention in the past that Texas is penalized here by the fact that their medical research is listed separately. Indeed, the UT MD Anderson Cancer Center is #18 on the list and the combined total for that and #34 UT-Austin would be #2 behind John's Hopkins but ahead of Michigan.
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UNL's medical is also separate
but, in realignment talk, it's obvious that the networks don't give a damn about academics or research programs or geography
they only care about football content for TV ratings and TV $$$
UVA isn't even close to ND in this one value - neither is any other program not in the SEC or Big Ten
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Medical spending can be a large portion of overall, if counted of course. UGA med school is in Augusta. UGA engineering school is in Atlanta.
I'm surprised to see Vandy that high, private schools usually have less R&D stuff. I'm surprised UNC is ahead of UVA.
I posted a link on SI's ranking of "program value" somewhere, not because I thought it "correct", but it's mildly interesting and provides some information.
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An interesting update:
UVA has surpassed VaTech in research spending. Back in 2014 VaTech was ranked #39 while UVA was #61 but UVA moved ahead in 2018 and in the 2020 (most recent available) rankings UVA was #44 while VaTech was #49.
Notre Dame was #109.
Notre Dame's academics:
According to USNWR undergraduate rankings, Notre Dame is #19. In the B1G that would be second best behind only #9 Northwestern. It is also behind #6 Chicago but Chicago isn't an athletic member so second best among those competing in B1G sports.
Their research spending, however, would be dead last and it isn't even close. Notre Dame ranks #109 nationally with 2020 research spending of $227,535M. That is almost a hundred million less than the B1G's current basement of #81 Nebraska.
Careful with the sloppy research of USNWR prints.
Of Note. Nebraska lost it's AAU standing (and ~100 Mil accounted research dollars) when it's Medical campus, was listed by AAU as a branch campus and not part of their main. (They didn't really lose the money it's just now considered part of the branch campus research dollars not main.) The same thing has happened to Va Tech, their medical campus research dollars are not included.
And while that sucks for those two schools who now seem more middle of the road higher learning instructions, it has been a huge boon for Ohio State, who now looks a lot better because it can include it's medical research dollars (top 5 last time I looked) as part of the academic main campus.
I think with this last round of expansion, all those Red Herrings of "Border State", Academic Alliance" "Flagship University" "AAU Status" Research Dollars" all mean squat. All that matters is will the inclusion of your university bring a larger TV football contract.
It's Simple, If Notre Dame can get a TV contract on Par with B1G/SEC they won't join a conference.
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Since Notre Dame gets a new media rights contract in 2025, I expect them to make some kind of move in 2024 (we have to be patient). The Irish seem to like their Independence, so unless pressure (real or imagined) is applied, why should they change?
They have to think they might get left out of future playoff opportunities, if they don’t join, one of the two proposed super-conferences. So, in order to motivate ND, the B1G and SEC should act publicly, like they are fully behind the Super-Conference idea, and those that don’t join, “will be on the outside looking in”. Once Notre Dame moves, it should start an avalanche of realignment activity, the collapse of the ACC among them.
I think that this is very bad for the future of the sport, but wonderful if you are a television executive.
I don't think this is feasible, as the B1G and SEC aren't allies when it comes to ND. Each would take the Irish, which means neither wants ND to go to the other.
And for the SEC, the status quo = ND not joining the B1G. Good for the SEC.
Basically, they're both thinking, "Hey ND, you should join a conference....as long as it's ours."
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If ND joined the SEC, I'd be quite shocked. I think the odds of that are near zero.
I don't think it's an option worth contemplating more than a nanosecond.
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ND joining the ACC as a full member would likely make that conference "safe" for a while.
As it is now, it's not safe at all. I could see the B1G and SEC wrecking it pretty easily. All it would take is for the SEC to grab Clemson and FSU. Game over.
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I am fairly sure the ND goes to the B1G or nowhere. The ACC doesn't strike me as a fit in any respect for full. They are similar academically I suppose.
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ND joining the ACC as a full member would likely make that conference "safe" for a while.
As it is now, it's not safe at all. I could see the B1G and SEC wrecking it pretty easily. All it would take is for the SEC to grab Clemson and FSU. Game over.
they could also wreck it by grabbing ND
I don't think the ACC will get a TV deal to share with ND that ND can't get on it's own.
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They would probably have to pay ND a double share, and also let ND keep NBC.
They might bend over like that.
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One of the options should be ND forming their own conference, cherry picking all the Helmets and near helmets, as a way of ditching all the Vanderbilt and Rutgers types from this future media conglomeration.
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the SEC and Big already own all the helmets that aren't golden
who's ND going to get?
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The helmet conference would be ND and the usual critters, not that it would happen.
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bama isn't leaving the SEC
Ohio St. and Michigan aren't leaving the Big
Now, Texas, USC, and Nebraska might listen if the money was quite a bit better