CFB51 College Football Fan Community
The Power Five => Big Ten => Topic started by: OrangeAfroMan on December 18, 2021, 08:01:58 AM
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Well, it's not "all-time," but I went back to the mid-60s, looking at 1st place votes. Before then, the positions get a little vague and even platoon football was spotty.
I focused on 1st place votes because overall points grows over time and one year there's a runaway winner and the next it's close....I just wanted to see how many individuals thought these non-skill position guys were the best player in the country.
I started in 1988 and went forward and backward in time from there. Why? Because Derrick Thomas and his 27 sacks got 3 first-place votes and Deion Sanders got none.
Here's the list of most 1st-place votes:
433 Charles Woodson, CB, UM
321 Manti Te'o, LB, ND
179 Hugh Green, DE, Pitt
161 Ndamukong Suh, DT, Neb
114 John Hicks, T, OSU
99 Rich Glover, MG, Neb
87 Orlando Pace, T, OSU
81 Marvin Jones, LB, FSU
78 Aidan Hutchinson, DE, UM
61 Mike Reid, DT, PSU
55 Ken MacAfee, TE, ND
.
These are the only ones over 50 votes. A few guys had 2 years of a handful of votes, like Bill Fralic, Chris Spielman, and Jack Tatum.
Do you notice anything about the list? All but one of these guys played in the midwest. I find that very interesting.
Some other notes:
The most Leroy Selmon got was 7, but his brother Lucious had 39.
Terrell Buckley, CB, FSU got 1 vote. 12 INTs, including 2 while covering Heisman-winner Desmond Howard. But Howard got 640.
The only defensive player for USC under Pete Carroll getting 1st place votes was LB Rey Maualuga. I found that odd.
It seemed like any time there were multiple non-skill position guys getting 1st place votes one year, there would be none the next year. As if the voters were overcorrecting or something.
The great Chase Young had 20.
Of course, Charles Woodson won it in 1997, with 433 1st place votes. The very next year, Champ Bailey received 6 votes. Bailey had far more catches and yards receiving, was a better punt returner, and QBs avoided him (3 INTs). Woodson had 7, but I've been told over and over that you can't just look at the stats.
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Of course, Charles Woodson won it in 1997, with 433 1st place votes. The very next year, Champ Bailey received 6 votes. Bailey had far more catches and yards receiving, was a better punt returner, and QBs avoided him (3 INTs). Woodson had 7, but I've been told over and over that you can't just look at the stats.
this is just not accurate. Bailey was a kick returner, he hardly returned punts. Woodson was a punt returner, he never returned kicks at all. So you can't really compare them as return specialists. They are two different disciplines. What you can compare is: Bailey never had a kick return for a TD. Woodson? Well he only had an epic punt return vs Ohio State which helped win his team the game.
Woodson did not play nearly as much on offense as Bailey, so it's not really fair to compare offensive numbers. Woodson only had 11 catches but he averaged 21+ yards per catch and scored 3 TD's on offense. Bailey had over 5x as many offensive touches and only scored...2 more TD's. Woodson was far more big-play and impactful with his offensive touches.
Woodson had 8 INT's in '97 and he was avoided more than Bailey and still had 5 more INT's...which is a lot more....and including maybe the most iconic INT ever when he went up and 1 handed a ball that MSU QB was just trying to throw out of bounds and somehow managed to get both feet in and bring it down. He also had an INT in the end-zone vs OSU which erased points for them.
Woodson won the award because he was a dominant three tool player who came up big for his team in the biggest moments of the biggest games.
You suck at this. Stick to crying over COVID.
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Well, it's not "all-time," but I went back to the mid-60s, looking at 1st place votes. Before then, the positions get a little vague and even platoon football was spotty.
Here's the list of most 1st-place votes:
nice work
interesting
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this is just not accurate. Bailey was a kick returner, he hardly returned punts. Woodson was a punt returner, he never returned kicks at all. So you can't really compare them as return specialists. They are two different disciplines. What you can compare is: Bailey never had a kick return for a TD. Woodson? Well he only had an epic punt return vs Ohio State which helped win his team the game.
Woodson did not play nearly as much on offense as Bailey, so it's not really fair to compare offensive numbers. Woodson only had 11 catches but he averaged 21+ yards per catch and scored 3 TD's on offense. Bailey had over 5x as many offensive touches and only scored...2 more TD's. Woodson was far more big-play and impactful with his offensive touches.
Woodson had 8 INT's in '97 and he was avoided more than Bailey and still had 5 more INT's...which is a lot more....and including maybe the most iconic INT ever when he went up and 1 handed a ball that MSU QB was just trying to throw out of bounds and somehow managed to get both feet in and bring it down. He also had an INT in the end-zone vs OSU which erased points for them.
Woodson won the award because he was a dominant three tool player who came up big for his team in the biggest moments of the biggest games.
You suck at this. Stick to crying over COVID.
One of us is objective and the other is you.
Thank you for the correction on the kick vs punt returns. I mixed them up. But Bailey did average 12 yards per punt return to Woodson's 8.4, but in limited returns.
But look at the bold sentence above....who the fuck said anything is FAIR?!? I'm talking about WHAT THEY DID. Why is this so hard for you to understand?!?
In red, I've highlighted something you're going to need to quantify and provide evidence for. If you can't, then there's no reason to believe it.
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One of us is objective and the other is you.
I wouldn't go that far.
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:043: the old I'm a Tee Pee - a Wigwam,A Tee Pee,a Wigwam
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Well look at it. I don't LIKE Champ Bailey. He played for the enemy.
But he had a similar season to Woodson and the vote discrepancy was 433 to 6. Should I apologize that it stands out to me? lol
99% of the actual reality of the explanation was that Heisman voters felt like they
A - gave defensive players a bone in 1997
and
B - didn't love the uproar it caused (not that it was good or bad attention, I just don't think they were ready for it or particularly liked it)
But I know, since I suggested it, someone here will say I'm wrong.
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Well look at it. I don't LIKE Champ Bailey. He played for the enemy.
But he had a similar season to Woodson and the vote discrepancy was 433 to 6. Should I apologize that it stands out to me? lol
99% of the actual reality of the explanation was that Heisman voters felt like they
A - gave defensive players a bone in 1997
and
B - didn't love the uproar it caused (not that it was good or bad attention, I just don't think they were ready for it or particularly liked it)
But I know, since I suggested it, someone here will say I'm wrong.
Probably A and B and then, most importantly:
C. Georgia was 9-3 and not part of the NC race.
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Good point.
I'm certain QBs get too much of the credit for good seasons and too much blame for bad ones, but to credit/debit a CB...that's different.
I bet Michigan's pedestrian offense was a major cause as well. If they were scoring 40 points per game, there wouldn't be as much credit to fall on Woodson's shoulders, even if he played exactly the same.
People aren't good at context.
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I think if you did go back all time you would run into the problem of what to do with the players that played both ways.
Heisman winner Nile Kinnick, for example, played just about every position possible for Iowa. QB, RB, DB, PR, KR, etc.
Kinnick still holds the all time Iowa record for interceptions by a DB in a career (18) and a season (8) and was named to the all time Big Ten team recently as a DB! Kinnick also held records for a long time for punt return yards and kick return yards.
So when you look at Kinnick historically, do you think of him as what, exactly? Not just a runner or a passer, but a guy that could do everything.
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speaking of Woodson and the Heisman, this is the greatest joke ever done at a bs event/awards ceremony...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c9EsIFBs26o
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Norm had a special place in his heart for OJ jokes. RIP
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I think if you did go back all time you would run into the problem of what to do with the players that played both ways.
Heisman winner Nile Kinnick, for example, played just about every position possible for Iowa. QB, RB, DB, PR, KR, etc.
Kinnick still holds the all time Iowa record for interceptions by a DB in a career (18) and a season (8) and was named to the all time Big Ten team recently as a DB! Kinnick also held records for a long time for punt return yards and kick return yards.
So when you look at Kinnick historically, do you think of him as what, exactly? Not just a runner or a passer, but a guy that could do everything.
Uhh, well, I guess if you're going back 80 years and everyone played both ways, it doesn't really matter, does it? There's no problem.