CFB51 College Football Fan Community
The Power Five => Big Ten => Topic started by: bayareabadger on May 18, 2020, 12:14:08 PM
-
Hey friends, I was thinking about a former Badger and he made me think of an archetype. And I was wondering if anyone else had similar feelings. Maybe share your guy.
The player I was thinking about was Tyler Donovan. In my memory, he was kind of a disappointment. And looking back. He was good. Maybe pretty good. Not great. Not season-changing, but good.
His story: He was a four-star dual-threat QB, two things you rarely saw in Madison. He lost a QB battle as a RS freshman, then lost again the next year to a shaky starter, John Stocco, who suddenly blossomed and kept Donavan on the bench until his senior year (minus a two-year injury fill-in).
Donovan took the job as a senior and was part of a team heavy on expectations. They'd gone 12-1 and returned eight starters on offense, plus seven started from a monster defense. The team opened at No. 7, and this felt like a breakthrough year. They even started a rickety 5-0, but took an upset at unranked Illinois. Then they got gutted at PSU, rallied to finish 4-1 in the regular season, with the only loss at No. OSU. They lost the bowl with Donovan throwing a pick at the end of a 4-point game.
The thing with him was that he wasn't quite as accurate as we'd hoped. He didn't have a crispness with where he located passes. He also was a nice runner, but hardly a game-breaker. It was easy to blame him as a team with expectations was only 9-4ish.
But looking back, after another decade of QB play, he was pretty decent. He's still sixth in single-seaon yards in program history (was second when he left campus). He left third in TD passes for a season (now T-7). He's just outside the top-10 in season pass efficiency, and half the top-10 happened after he left. Combine that with being a gamer and a little running, he wasn't half bad.
If I were to look through the modern era, you're probably talking about it being in the convo for eighth best QB season in 30 years. In the 11-8 mix for sure.
And he had some adversity. The defense was not near the level it was supposed to be. His starting possession receiver tore an ACL in game 6. His other starting receiver missed games 3-7 and was a little limited after. His running game was not so effective (tight ends were good, OL decent). They had to roll into PSU with a mess at WR. but he was big in a couple understated fun wins, upending No. 13 Michigan in Madison and a weird shootout with Minnesota.
I complained about him, but he was pretty good. Not lead a breakthrough year good unless the team around him was also breakthrough good, which it was not.
Bonus pick: James White. He ran for 4,000 yards and was never really considered the best back on his team. The only time he led the team in rushing was as a freshman, when he started as a third-stringer. He also averaged 6.2 yards a carry and had 45 rushing TDs.
-
Terrell Davis would make my list. He got in Ray Goff's dog house for some reason and was infrequently used in college, even though he showed some real flashes when he got any chance. He was injured his senior year.
The other one would be Terry Hoague, who now runs a winery in California. I think we did appreciate him, but he was a bit hidden playing safety.
-
For Florida, it's my former high school teammate, Doug Johnson.
He was basically the bridge between Wuerffel and Grossman. Kind of a tough job.
He did have a tendency to make bad throws. He had some bad INTs. But he was good. His crime was failing to be great.
But here's the thing - at the end of his career, he would've ranked 1st or 2nd in career TD passes at every other SEC school.
But because he was at Florida, under Spurrier, after St. Danny and before Sexy Rexy, he was mostly shat on by the fans. It probably wasn't fair.
-
at UNL.. Jammal Lord. Guy was a stud in hindsight. He really carried UNL.
-
Johnson would have been fifth at Georgia in career TD passes, not second, third at Kentucky and fourth at Tennessee.
-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O8FLX6Mxbbw&feature=youtu.be (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O8FLX6Mxbbw&feature=youtu.be)
Lord in action
-
at UNL.. Jammal Lord. Guy was a stud in hindsight. He really carried UNL.
great runner, too bad he didn't have much arm talent
-
John Standeford (Purdue WR, 2000-2003).
He didn't stand out because he didn't lead the team in receptions in any one of his 4 years, but finished his career as the Big Ten's leader in career receptions and yards.
Purdue fans remember Vinny Sutherland, Tim Stratton (TE), and Seth Morales (Buckeye-killer) from the 2000 Rose Bowl year, and don't really remember Standeford despite him finishing second on the team in receptions that year as a freshman.
His Jr and Sr years were 1,000 yard receiving years, with his Jr year averaging 17.4 ypc and pulling in 13 TDs.
Taylor Stubblefied (who would go on to eclipse his receptions record the next year) was the one who usually "seemed" to be more integrated into the offense. He was more of a Julian Edelman time--always in the right place at the right time on 3rd down, despite being a short, slow, "possession" receiver.
But Standeford was a playmaker. He didn't have the flashy "measurables" of some receivers (he was graded an F by some draft website (https://nflcombineresults.com/playerpage.php?i=6956)), but he was a heck of a football player.
He went undrafted and got at least a couple of cups of coffee in the NFL (actually playing during his time in Detroit).
-
Johnson would have been fifth at Georgia in career TD passes, not second, third at Kentucky and fourth at Tennessee.
He said at the end of his career, so through 1999.
-
Check. Got it. My bad.
-
Tom Brady. He came to Michigan in 1995 as a true freshman out of California as a lightly regarded recruit and was the 7th guy on the depth chart and had to bide his time and earn his way up the depth chart. Scott Dreisbach was one of the prized recruits in the entire nation in 1994, and Michigan stole him right out of Notre Dame's own backyard. After a year of redshirting in 1994, he was the guy in 1995. He was basically just handed the keys to the ferrari as a RS Frosh in 1995, there wasn't a real battle. After starting off hot in '95, Dreisbach got hurt, missed just over half the season that year and Brian Griese filled in while Tom Brady took a redshirt as a true frosh. So 1996 starts off and Scott Dreisbach is back from injury and his job as the starter for the entire season, was basically handed right back to him, and he doesn't miss a game. Griese and Brady barely play in 1996 except in garbage time.
Flash forward to 1997, Dreisbach gets injured again before the season starts, and the starting QB job is open for battle in 1997. Griese was a fifth year senior and Brady a RS Soph, it was a neck and neck battle in fall camp but Lloyd Carr picks Griese over Brady. Brady almost transfers, but decides to stick it out and stay and be the back-up. Michigan goes on to a 12-0 season and wins a MNC. Hard to argue with the choice of Griese after a season like that. 1998 rolls around, Scott Dreisbach is healthy enough to play again but has to compete with a RS Jr. Tom Brady and incoming phenom Drew Henson who was the #1 QB in all of high school and maybe even the #1 MLB prospect in high school- a true phenom that was on the cover of Sports Illustrated. Brady wins the starting job in 1998, he goes on to lead the team to a 10-3 record and #12 final rankings and complete 62% of his passes for 2,427 yards and throw 14 TD passes vs 10 INT's. Virtually same completion % as Griese in '97, same exact TD numbers but 400+ more yards and also 4 more INT's
1999 starts and instead of naming your returning 5th year senior returning starter QB that was named team captain for the upcoming 1999 season by his teammates, who had been the back-up in your 1997 MNC season and then go onto lead you to a 10-3 record and #12 ranking in 1998 as a starter- what does Lloyd Carr do? He decides to not name a starter and say there's a QB competition and that Drew Henson will play. Tom Brady starts every single game in 1999, but for the first 5 weeks of that season, Michigan goes 5-0 with Lloyd Carr deciding to yank Brady and insert Drew Henson- almost at completely random- and then give Henson long stretches of playing time and re-insert Brady or at times even let Henson finish games. In the 6th game of that season- on the road in East Lansing vs Michigan State- Michigan got down by 17 points playing the QB musical chair game. Carr did the first smart thing he had done all season and left Brady in to finish the final 18 minutes of play. Brady threw for 241 yards in those final 18 minutes and nearly brought Michigan back. Michigan lost 34-31 on the road. Maybe that's a game they win if Brady is getting 100% of the snaps. You'd think that would've put an end to Lloyd Carr's stupid ass musical chair QB system- but it didn't. The very next week vs Illinois they were doing it again- only for Brady to throw for 307 yards in a 6 point loss. After that game, Carr wised up and it ended. Brady was the starter of every offensive snap, no more Drew Henson except for a gadget play here or there. And Michigan never lost a game again after that. They went 5-0 from then on, with Brady having an epic 4th QTR comeback win vs then ranked #6 Penn State in Happy Valley, a win vs Ohio State, and then an epic game in the Orange Bowl vs Alabama where he lead two 14 point comebacks in the same game to win the game 35-34. Brady lead Michigan to a 10-2 season that year and a #5 final ranking. For his career he went 20-5 as a starter, threw for 4,773 passing yards, completed 62% of his passes, and threw 30 TD's vs 16 INT's (basically 2:1 TD INT RATIO).
The way Brady was disrespected by Lloyd Carr as a 5th year senior and then going in the 6th round put a massive giant sized chip on his shoulder and propelled him into becoming the greatest QB ever. And it might've cost Michigan a shot at playing for the title in 1999. And although I said it's hard to argue with Griese getting the nod in 1997 after the results- that team wasn't an offensive juggernaut by any stretch- the offense actually kind of stunk- and as long as Brady wasn't a turnover machine they probably win a share of the 1997 MNC if he's the starter too.
All things considered, Brady was pretty damn good at Michigan and underappreciated. Even his #'s at the time were inline for some of the best ever at Michigan- at the time. They just didn't throw the ball that much back in the 80s and 90s, and no QB has ever put up earth shattering numbers at Michigan. Ever. John Navarre's 2003 season in which he put up 3,331 passing yards is still the single season passing yards record at Michigan. Chad Henne's 2004 season in which he threw for 25 passing TD's is still the single season TD pass record at Michigan. Shea Patterson's 2019 season of 3,061 passing yards is the 2nd most ever in a single season. And his 23 TD passes in the 3rd most ever in a Michigan single season. This is pathetic. Michigan football- particularly it's passing offense needs to get with the times and into the 21st century. But that's a topic for another discussion entirely.
-
Bam Childress
-
Currently on the Team:
I think I will go with RB Journey Brown. He was a 3* running back out of high school, and the lowest rated recruit in a room filled with 4 and 5 star talent.
Last season true freshman and all world recruit Noah Cain burst onto the scene and continuously churned out tough yards and seemed to be the best back in the "running back by committee" room. Then he got injured and the 3 remaining backs split about equal time. Journey Brown, however, seemed to get better and better each game. In the bowl game he ran for over 200 yards, finished the season with almost 900 rushing yards, and averaged almost 7 yards per carry. His average of 6.9 yards per rush was better than Jonathan Taylor and JK Dobbins.
He also ran a verified 4.29 40 time and is the all time PA high school state record holder in the 100M dash.
Nobody seems to be talking about JB. He probably won't make any pre-season lists. Penn State also returns 4 offensive lineman, so he will likely have a very good year. (And he'll probably still split a ton of carries with at least 3 other guys). I think he may be the best back in conference, with the possible exception of teammate Noah Cain. Yes, I'm a homer, but I don't think I'm being overly homer'd here.
Past players:
This is tough. Perhaps John Shaffer, Penn State QB in the late 1980s. He wasn't fast. He didn't have a great arm. However, I don't think there has ever been a more clutch player. He wasn't drafted and finished his high school and college career with a 66-1 record. He went 25-1 as Penn State's QB, including a national championship.
-
Johnson would have been fifth at Georgia in career TD passes, not second, third at Kentucky and fourth at Tennessee.
Uhhh, no.
Think about it, you'll figure it out.
Hint: time travel isn't possible
-
He said at the end of his career, so through 1999.
Don't mind him. He's just in a hurry to say "NUH UH!" to whatever I post.
-
at UNL.. Jammal Lord. Guy was a stud in hindsight. He really carried UNL.
That's a good one.. put in a no win spot at PSU early that season kind of caused many to give up on him.
-
J
T
B
A
R
R
E
T
T
-
Lord is a good one.
Brady is interesting because in the current era, he'd be the guy who got jumped by a talented up and comer, which fanbases often lose. Granted back then you had things like Brady and Major Applewhite.
-
Brady is interesting because in the current era, he'd be the guy who got jumped by a talented up and comer, which fanbases often lose. Granted back then you had things like Brady and Major Applewhite.
What are you talking about? Brady never got jumped by Henson. Brady started every single game his last two seasons at Michigan. In 1999, Brady was the starter, but Lloyd Carr would insert Drew Henson in the 2nd QTR and then in the 2nd half he'd put Brady back in the game. This went on for the first 6 games of the year. After Michigan lost a couple of games and Lloyd Carr was facing a pissed off locker-room and Brady had separated himself from Henson by playing a lot better on the field than Henson- Carr knocked the bullshit off.
Drew Henson was a spectacularly talented player but he was nowhere near ready to be a starting QB back then. Henson missed all of spring ball and summer workouts in 1999 because he was off in Florida playing baseball for the Yankees farm team. Carr did what he did in '99 to appease Drew Henson's father Dan. Drew Henson was maybe the #1 HS football prospect AND the #1 baseball prospect in the entire country in the class of 1998. He probably would've been drafted in the 1st round of the MLB draft had he not signed his LOI to play college football with Michigan. As it stood the Yankees still drafted him in the 3rd round and gave him a $3 million contract to play minor league baseball.
Lloyd Carr was strong-armed by Drew Henson's psycho father Dan Henson into playing Drew in 1999 or else they were going to lose Drew for good to the MLB. Dan Henson was a lunatic. He went to every Michigan practice to watch Drew. He made Lloyd Carr promise them not to sign another QB recruit in the class before Drew or in the same class as Drew. He argued with Lloyd Carr about them not playing Drew enough. He was a white LaVarr Ball before LaVarr Ball. Lloyd Carr is a fool for putting up with that bullshit and always caving in. What happened? Henson kept bailing on spring ball and summer workouts in order to play minor league baseball- time that he should've been putting in with his teammates at Michigan to make the team better- and he wound up quitting football at Michigan a year early anyway to go and sign a $20 million contract with the Yankees. Henson still had maybe the best year I've ever seen by a Michigan QB that junior year. I'll always contend that if he didn't have a psycho for a father and had he given up the baseball dreams and stuck around to commit to football 100% his Sr year he'd have been the #1 pick in the 2002 NFL draft and had a long NFL career.
-
Maybe Brian Hartline. I just thought of him as just a guy and scoffed when he left early for the NFL, but he had a pretty decent little career there and I think still holds a Dolphins record for yards in a game. Plus he's seems like a pretty good coach, too.
-
A WR named Khori Ivy who played in the late 90s. When he graduated in 2000 he was in the top 3 for career receptions, receiving yards, and TD receptions. But when he came here he was playing behind two upperclassmen who also went on to finish their careers in the top 3 of those categories. So he started his career as a third option and even after the other two left and he matched their production I never quite put him in their category even though he deserved to be.
-
Maybe Brian Hartline. I just thought of him as just a guy and scoffed when he left early for the NFL, but he had a pretty decent little career there and I think still holds a Dolphins record for yards in a game. Plus he's seems like a pretty good coach, too.
Not to mention the guy can recruit his ass off. Ohio State has landed more stud WR recruits than any program in the nation since they hired him as the WR’s coach.
-
What are you talking about? Brady never got jumped by Henson. Brady started every single game his last two seasons at Michigan. In 1999, Brady was the starter, but Lloyd Carr would insert Drew Henson in the 2nd QTR and then in the 2nd half he'd put Brady back in the game. This went on for the first 6 games of the year. After Michigan lost a couple of games and Lloyd Carr was facing a pissed off locker-room and Brady had separated himself from Henson by playing a lot better on the field than Henson- Carr knocked the bullshit off.
Drew Henson was a spectacularly talented player but he was nowhere near ready to be a starting QB back then. Henson missed all of spring ball and summer workouts in 1999 because he was off in Florida playing baseball for the Yankees farm team. Carr did what he did in '99 to appease Drew Henson's father Dan. Drew Henson was maybe the #1 HS football prospect AND the #1 baseball prospect in the entire country in the class of 1998. He probably would've been drafted in the 1st round of the MLB draft had he not signed his LOI to play college football with Michigan. As it stood the Yankees still drafted him in the 3rd round and gave him a $3 million contract to play minor league baseball.
Lloyd Carr was strong-armed by Drew Henson's psycho father Dan Henson into playing Drew in 1999 or else they were going to lose Drew for good to the MLB. Dan Henson was a lunatic. He went to every Michigan practice to watch Drew. He made Lloyd Carr promise them not to sign another QB recruit in the class before Drew or in the same class as Drew. He argued with Lloyd Carr about them not playing Drew enough. He was a white LaVarr Ball before LaVarr Ball. Lloyd Carr is a fool for putting up with that bullshit and always caving in. What happened? Henson kept bailing on spring ball and summer workouts in order to play minor league baseball- time that he should've been putting in with his teammates at Michigan to make the team better- and he wound up quitting football at Michigan a year early anyway to go and sign a $20 million contract with the Yankees. Henson still had maybe the best year I've ever seen by a Michigan QB that junior year. I'll always contend that if he didn't have a psycho for a father and had he given up the baseball dreams and stuck around to commit to football 100% his Sr year he'd have been the #1 pick in the 2002 NFL draft and had a long NFL career.
I didn't phrase it the best, but basically this.
In our current era, and at times historically, fans have been very quick to hope a "talented" player brimming with potential surpasses (or sometimes rotates) a player with a higher ceiling and lower floor. I wasn't paying attention back then, but would've been interest to see if that wasn't or was the case (you're telling me it was not in the moment, I think?).
-
What are you talking about? Brady never got jumped by Henson. Brady started every single game his last two seasons at Michigan. In 1999, Brady was the starter, but Lloyd Carr would insert Drew Henson in the 2nd QTR and then in the 2nd half he'd put Brady back in the game.
They'd each get a quarter, and then he'd let the one who did better carry on.
In the '99 loss at MSU, that was Henson, then Henson crapped the bed, Brady went back in, and almost brought them back.
I think that was the end of it, and against Illinois the next week it was all Brady...and Illinois won. The fans were livid and wanted Henson. Everyone wanted the local wonderkid with the crazy high ceiling. Not the stopgap borderline NFL player from California.
-
Marcus Rush.
He was undersized, and early in his career was nearly useless in short yardage situations. I think in the 2011 Wisconsin regular season game, MSU had to take Rush out, because UW was just running at him every play. But he was a 4 time HM All-Big Ten player, who had the fortune/misfortune of playing opposite Will Gholston and then Shilique Calhoun, possibly the two best DE during that time. That meant he was never going to be the guy opponents worried about, but it also probably jaded my opinion of what a good DE should be.
-
J
T
B
A
R
R
E
T
T
A person has to arrive at the feelings on their own. Can't push them.
-
I didn't phrase it the best, but basically this.
In our current era, and at times historically, fans have been very quick to hope a "talented" player brimming with potential surpasses (or sometimes rotates) a player with a higher ceiling and lower floor. I wasn't paying attention back then, but would've been interest to see if that wasn't or was the case (you're telling me it was not in the moment, I think?).
Oh ok. I got you now.
It absolutely was that way in the moment. The fan treatment of Brady wasn’t great. They absolutely wanted Drew Henson to be the guy. They all wanted the shiny new OMG 5 STARZ! to play. Drew Henson was a huge deal back in the day. He was a super-star recruit before the internet recruiting sites and YouTubes and social media.
This guy was on the cover of Sports Illustrated as a high school senior being hyped as the next John Elway. He broke the National high school home run record in baseball and was also being hailed as the top QB prospect in a decade.
Carr caved into the pressure from Henson’s lunatic father and maybe even the pressure from the fan base. The head coach however should know better though. Head coach should never let a player or parent of a player hold him hostage. And the head coach should be smart enough to see the experienced guy (Brady) was busting his ass to get better in spring ball and summer workouts and leading the team in the off-season (which is why he was named team captain) - while the other younger guy with zero experience was off in Florida playing baseball during spring ball and summer workouts.
Carr really just screwed the entire situation up to be honest. He handled it like a moron. And he was so scared of losing Henson- and what happened? He wound up losing him a year early anyway.
I don’t think it can be stated enough though just how insanely gifted Henson was. The guy was an Adonis. A handful of QBs have been compared to Elway- Henson is the only one I’ve seen on that level talent wise. He really was the next Elway. And he threw it all away to play a sport he loved more but wasn’t quite as special at. His skill set in baseball was high level- don’t get me wrong. But his skill set at QB was out of this world. 6’4, 230 with an ungodly arm but he also threw with great accuracy and touch and he could really run. Andrew Luck was called the closest thing to Elway but he wasn’t to me. Luck never had that rarefied arm. Henson had that arm plus all the size and athleticism.
-
They'd each get a quarter, and then he'd let the one who did better carry on.
In the '99 loss at MSU, that was Henson, then Henson crapped the bed, Brady went back in, and almost brought them back.
I think that was the end of it, and against Illinois the next week it was all Brady...and Illinois won. The fans were livid and wanted Henson. Everyone wanted the local wonderkid with the crazy high ceiling. Not the stopgap borderline NFL player from California.
This is correct.
Michigan went 5-0 doing the two QB system where Brady would start the game and Henson would get the 2nd QTR and then the coaches would go with who they thought had been playing better. During the first 5 games- Brady got the 2nd half nod. It was the 6th game of the year vs MSU and the first time that season that they decided to give Henson the 2nd half nod. Henson shit the bed and Michigan got down big with Henson playing the 2nd and 3rd QTR and Carr put Brady back in the game with 3 mins left in the 3rd QTR and Brady threw for 241 yards and put up 17 points in the final 18 mins of play and nearly brought them back.
Henson still got reps in the 2nd QTR vs Illinois- but that L wasn’t really the fault of the dumb 2 QB system like the MSU loss arguably was. Michigan was up 20 points with just 4 mins to go in the 3rd QTR and the defense blew a 20 point lead at home vs a team that they were way better than and 25 point favorites over. That was just typical Lloyd Carr for you though. He ALWAYS found ways to lose games to way inferior teams. Aside from that miracle 1997 season- Carr literally had one or two games like this every single year he was coach.
You’re 100% right though. All the fans wanted to see Henson play. Problem was Henson just wasn’t ready to play. Missing spring ball and summer workouts to play minor league baseball in Florida was seriously stunting his progress.