CFB51 College Football Fan Community
The Power Five => Big Ten => Topic started by: Kris60 on December 26, 2019, 11:18:53 AM
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I got into a discussion with a guy on a WVU message board about the 1993 Mountaineer team and if they had any chance at a split NC if they had beaten UF in the Sugar. He reminded me of the Bowl Coalition that season where they added up the total points from the Coaches Poll and AP and pitted the top 2 teams against each other (I know the Big Ten and Pac Ten weren’t part of it).
That season it was Nebraska and FSU and he provided links that showed the Coaches had agreed to vote the winner of the Bowl Coalition game #1. However, in the final Coaches’ Poll that season ND received 25 first place votes. That flies in the face of the supposed agreement they had.
Does anyone have a better memory than I do of what happened that season? I remember feeling once FSU and Nebraska got matched that WVU’s chances of a NC were pretty much gone but have to admit I had forgotten about the Bowl Coalition and how that worked. How could the coaches agree to vote the winner #1 and then give ND 25 first place votes? Just looking for clarification.
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FSU was voted #1 after beating the Huskers in the ORange
Boo Hoo Lou Holst threw a fit, because the Irish were a one loss team that had beaten the Seminoles
I think there's a good chance of a split title if the Mountaineers had gone undefeated
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FSU was voted #1 after beating the Huskers in the ORange
Boo Hoo Lou Holst threw a fit, because the Irish were a one loss team that had beaten the Seminoles
I think there's a good chance of a split title if the Mountaineers had gone undefeated
Yeah, I know all that but I was wondering if people remembered the BC agreement and why the coaches basically ignored it. Because this final Coaches poll from the 1993 Season:
https://www.usatoday.com/sports/ncaaf/polls/amway-coaches-poll/1993-1994/1994-01-03/
Is in direct contrast to the information in here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bowl_Coalition
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https://www.usatoday.com/sports/ncaaf/polls/amway-coaches-poll/1993-1994/1994-01-03/
Sorry, that link didn’t work the first time.
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I got into a discussion with a guy on a WVU message board about the 1993 Mountaineer team and if they had any chance at a split NC if they had beaten UF in the Sugar. He reminded me of the Bowl Coalition that season where they added up the total points from the Coaches Poll and AP and pitted the top 2 teams against each other (I know the Big Ten and Pac Ten weren’t part of it).
That season it was Nebraska and FSU and he provided links that showed the Coaches had agreed to vote the winner of the Bowl Coalition game #1. However, in the final Coaches’ Poll that season ND received 25 first place votes. That flies in the face of the supposed agreement they had.
Does anyone have a better memory than I do of what happened that season? I remember feeling once FSU and Nebraska got matched that WVU’s chances of a NC were pretty much gone but have to admit I had forgotten about the Bowl Coalition and how that worked. How could the coaches agree to vote the winner #1 and then give ND 25 first place votes? Just looking for clarification.
I think some of them just didn't follow the agreement. I think that happened again when Auburn and USC had the split title later.
I remember that season pretty well. Ohio State started out ranked #17 and got up to 8-0 and #3 before a tie with Wisconsin dropped them to #5. In the November 2, 1993 poll Ohio State was #3 behind FSU and ND but we knew that they were scheduled to play later. WVU was 7-0 and #11 at that point.
In the November 9, 1993 poll WVU cracked the top-10 at #9 while tOSU dropped to #5. They stayed #5 and #9 in the November 16 poll even after FSU had lost to Notre Dame. The Seminoles only dropped from #1 to #2.
The next week WVU beat #4 Miami (FL) and Ohio State lost to unranked Michigan. The Mountaineers jumped to #5 while the Buckeyes fell basically out of contention to #12.
Then WVU backed up their win over #4 Miami with a win over #11 Boston College (who had just defeated ND) and moved up to #3 behind only FSU and Nebraska.
Heading into the bowls the theoretically potential contenders were:
- 11-1 #1 Florida State playing #2 Nebraska in the Orange Bowl
- 11-0 #2 Nebraska playing #1 FSU in the Orange Bowl
- 11-0 #3 West Virginia playing #8 UF in the Sugar Bowl
- 10-1 #4 Notre Dame playing #7 aTm in the Cotton Bowl
- 11-0 #5 Auburn not playing a bowl due to sanctions
- 10-1 #7 Texas A&M playing #4 ND in the Cotton Bowl
Everybody else either had at least two losses or a loss and a tie (TN, UW, tOSU).
As a practical matter, nobody was going to pass the FSU/UNL winner. WVU had wins over:
- #10 Miami
- #15 Boston College
- #22 VaTech
- #25 Louisville
Had they beaten #8 Florida, the Gators would have likely landed somewhere in the 10-15 range. That is pretty good for that era but FSU had:
- #8 Florida
- #10 Miami
- #12 North Carolina
- #24 Clemson
FSU's one score loss at Notre Dame wasn't very damaging which is why they were still ranked ahead of undefeated teams Nebraska, WVU, and Auburn.
Nebraska had less quality wins but their bowl opponent would have been a much bigger scalp than WVU's. FSU had just defeated Florida in the swamp.
West Virginia couldn't realistically overtake the FSU/UNL winner no matter what they did to Florida.
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I think some of them just didn't follow the agreement. I think that happened again when Auburn and USC had the split title later.
I remember that season pretty well. Ohio State started out ranked #17 and got up to 8-0 and #3 before a tie with Wisconsin dropped them to #5. In the November 2, 1993 poll Ohio State was #3 behind FSU and ND but we knew that they were scheduled to play later. WVU was 7-0 and #11 at that point.
In the November 9, 1993 poll WVU cracked the top-10 at #9 while tOSU dropped to #5. They stayed #5 and #9 in the November 16 poll even after FSU had lost to Notre Dame. The Seminoles only dropped from #1 to #2.
The next week WVU beat #4 Miami (FL) and Ohio State lost to unranked Michigan. The Mountaineers jumped to #5 while the Buckeyes fell basically out of contention to #12.
Then WVU backed up their win over #4 Miami with a win over #11 Boston College (who had just defeated ND) and moved up to #3 behind only FSU and Nebraska.
Heading into the bowls the theoretically potential contenders were:
- 11-1 #1 Florida State playing #2 Nebraska in the Orange Bowl
- 11-0 #2 Nebraska playing #1 FSU in the Orange Bowl
- 11-0 #3 West Virginia playing #8 UF in the Sugar Bowl
- 10-1 #4 Notre Dame playing #7 aTm in the Cotton Bowl
- 11-0 #5 Auburn not playing a bowl due to sanctions
- 10-1 #7 Texas A&M playing #4 ND in the Cotton Bowl
Everybody else either had at least two losses or a loss and a tie (TN, UW, tOSU).
As a practical matter, nobody was going to pass the FSU/UNL winner. WVU had wins over:
- #10 Miami
- #15 Boston College
- #22 VaTech
- #25 Louisville
Had they beaten #8 Florida, the Gators would have likely landed somewhere in the 10-15 range. That is pretty good for that era but FSU had:
- #8 Florida
- #10 Miami
- #12 North Carolina
- #24 Clemson
FSU's one score loss at Notre Dame wasn't very damaging which is why they were still ranked ahead of undefeated teams Nebraska, WVU, and Auburn.
Nebraska had less quality wins but their bowl opponent would have been a much bigger scalp than WVU's. FSU had just defeated Florida in the swamp.
West Virginia couldn't realistically overtake the FSU/UNL winner no matter what they did to Florida.
Heading into the bowls Nebraska was #1 in both polls. FSU was #2 in the AP and #3 in the Coaches and WVU was the inverse of FSU in both polls. I remember thinking the AP was obviously a done deal with the top 2 teams matching up. I also remember feeling hopeless that WVU had any chance in the coaches even they were #2 and it probably centered around the agreement that I had since forgotten.
But then I saw that the coaches far from unanimously voted FSU #1 and it got my curiosity up.
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If the Mountaineers had walloped the Gators 41-7, Nehlen could have cried to the pollsters and media like Boo Hoo Lou
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When #1 and #2 play, no, #3 isn't going to win any NC. The 25 coaches that voted for ND were either taking a stand or some of them honestly probably forgot. Those types of guys don't like being told what to do, remember. And they were probably told they had to vote so-and-so #1 at the beginning of the year and not reminded of it by anyone that mattered.
As for WV, no, they had no shot at a NC. Maybe an obscure computer poll would award them the NC 12 years later, but that's about it. Even if you're really trying to push WV up there, the problem was that their 2 best wins (if they had won the Sugar) would have been against two teams FSU also beat (Miami and Florida).
As it was, the Mountaineers got pantsed by 2-loss Florida in Nawlins'.
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When #1 and #2 play, no, #3 isn't going to win any NC. The 25 coaches that voted for ND were either taking a stand or some of them honestly probably forgot. Those types of guys don't like being told what to do, remember. And they were probably told they had to vote so-and-so #1 at the beginning of the year and not reminded of it by anyone that mattered.
As for WV, no, they had no shot at a NC. Maybe an obscure computer poll would award them the NC 12 years later, but that's about it. Even if you're really trying to push WV up there, the problem was that their 2 best wins (if they had won the Sugar) would have been against two teams FSU also beat (Miami and Florida).
As it was, the Mountaineers got pantsed by 2-loss Florida in Nawlins'.
But the thing is, WVU wasn’t #3 in the coaches poll. They were number 2, ahead of FSU. And if you look at what the coaches did with ND after the polls it isn’t inconceivable to think they could have taken a stand or forgotten or whatever and just kept an undefeated WVU over a 1 loss FSU.
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But the thing is, WVU wasn’t #3 in the coaches poll. They were number 2, ahead of FSU. And if you look at what the coaches did with ND after the polls it isn’t inconceivable to think they could have taken a stand or forgotten or whatever and just kept an undefeated WVU over a 1 loss FSU.
I'm with @OrangeAfroMan (https://www.cfb51.com/index.php?action=profile;u=58) on this one and mostly for the reason that he stated. Ok, with a win over UF, WVU's two best wins would have been over teams that FSU also beat. WVU's other wins over ranked teams were:
- #15 Boston College, #13 final
- #22 VaTech, #22 final
- #25 Louisville, #24 final
FSU's other wins over ranked teams were:
- #2/3 Nebraska, #3 final
- #12 UNC, #19 final
- #24 Clemson, #23 final
The bottom two for each (VaTech/UNC and Clemson/Louisville) are comparable but FSU's win over Nebraska is WAY better than WVU's win over BC. Granted, WVU would have been undefeated but they also wouldn't have played any teams anywhere near as good as the one that beat FSU (final #2 ND) or the best team that FSU did beat (final #3 UNL).
Assuming that Florida would have dropped to #12 with a loss to WVU (a good guess since they would have been 10-3 and Tennessee was #12 at 9-2-1), the bottom line would have been:
Against teams that finished (AP) ranked #1-11:
- FSU: 1-1 (lost at ND, beat UNL)
- WVU: crickets
Against teams ranked #12-18:
- FSU: 2-0 (UF, Mia)
- WVU: 2-0 (UF, Mia)
Against teams ranked #19-#25:
- FSU: 2-0 (UNC, Clemson)
- WVU: 2-0 (VaTech, Louisville)
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I'm with @OrangeAfroMan (https://www.cfb51.com/index.php?action=profile;u=58) on this one and mostly for the reason that he stated. Ok, with a win over UF, WVU's two best wins would have been over teams that FSU also beat. WVU's other wins over ranked teams were:
- #15 Boston College, #13 final
- #22 VaTech, #22 final
- #25 Louisville, #24 final
FSU's other wins over ranked teams were:
- #2/3 Nebraska, #3 final
- #12 UNC, #19 final
- #24 Clemson, #23 final
The bottom two for each (VaTech/UNC and Clemson/Louisville) are comparable but FSU's win over Nebraska is WAY better than WVU's win over BC. Granted, WVU would have been undefeated but they also wouldn't have played any teams anywhere near as good as the one that beat FSU (final #2 ND) or the best team that FSU did beat (final #3 UNL).
Assuming that Florida would have dropped to #12 with a loss to WVU (a good guess since they would have been 10-3 and Tennessee was #12 at 9-2-1), the bottom line would have been:
Against teams that finished (AP) ranked #1-11:
- FSU: 1-1 (lost at ND, beat UNL)
- WVU: crickets
Against teams ranked #12-18:
- FSU: 2-0 (UF, Mia)
- WVU: 2-0 (UF, Mia)
Against teams ranked #19-#25:
- FSU: 2-0 (UNC, Clemson)
- WVU: 2-0 (VaTech, Louisville)
Yeah, I can see it playing out like that too. Like I said, I distinctly remember desperately wanting to get Nebraska in the Orange. When FSU got matched up with them my hopes were pretty much dashed. But after talking to the guys on the other message board it made me wonder if that was because of the still fairly new BC agreement that over time I had forgotten. Then someone else posted the final coaches poll which confused me.
But if you throw out any agreement and just entertain the hypothetical if WVU had won I don’t think it’s a stretch to assume WVU would have stayed ahead of FSU and finished #1 in the coaches, especially considering what they did with ND after the bowls.
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I'm with @OrangeAfroMan (https://www.cfb51.com/index.php?action=profile;u=58) on this one and mostly for the reason that he stated. Ok, with a win over UF, WVU's two best wins would have been over teams that FSU also beat. WVU's other wins over ranked teams were:
- #15 Boston College, #13 final
- #22 VaTech, #22 final
- #25 Louisville, #24 final
FSU's other wins over ranked teams were:
- #2/3 Nebraska, #3 final
- #12 UNC, #19 final
- #24 Clemson, #23 final
apparently, this line of thinking didn't go back to 1984
WVU was undefeated going into the Sugar bowl vs a top ten ranked team
BYU was undefeated going into the Holiday Bowl vs an unranked Michigan
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There was also FSU worship in '93. They were viewed as invincible. The loss at ND deflated the greatest of all time chatter but there was still FSU drooling. They were 17 1/2 favorites over #1/#2 Nebraska. Part of that was Nebraska losing a zillion Jan 1 bowl games in a row to FSU, Miami and one to GT.
WVU needed to hammer Fla. They did get a relatively cheap FSU close win, in which they were outplayed and Frazier won the Orange Bowl MOP. I don't think WVa would've finished #1 but they would get some votes.
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Yeah, I think helmet would have won out. Although, I do believe the coaches' poll did purposely vote the "other" deserving team #1 when the AP vote was predictable. If you don't just look at the week-to-week and final polls, but you look at the points and 1st place votes through history, the voters are very devious. They've take a hard left turn in their final ballot many times.
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That all being said, just looking at 1993's Coaches' poll...WV at 2 and FSU at 3. WV beating Florida would have improved their resume AND not helped their case to remain ranked ahead of FSU at the same time. Florida had already been beaten by FSU in the Swamp. FSU beating #1 Nebraska would have easily been enough to push the darlings of '93 up past WV. The Mountaineers would have been in the same boat as 94 Penn St and 04 Auburn in our minds as an undefeated P5 team with no trophy.
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There was also FSU worship in '93. They were viewed as invincible.
Yup