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Topic: College football players and politics ....

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BrownCounty

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Re: College football players and politics ....
« Reply #14 on: July 20, 2018, 03:25:43 PM »
So first off, if Tom Herman expresses any contempt for this, his recruiting is done at Texas.  So there's that.

Secondly... the National Anthem before sporting events was not instigated as some sort of evil Hitlerian plot.  It was just a nice way for us to come together and honor our Flag and Country before a ball game.  Back in the pre-social media days of World Wars, Vietnam, factory jobs and farming, people had respect for our Country.  Not because they were forced to, but because they appreciated what separated America from other places, and they appreciated the sacrifice it takes to maintain.

Fast-forward to today, a bunch of low-IQ millionaires that play ball for living like we all wish we could do, have found a reason to be discontent.  Mostly due to being goaded by an anti-American undercurrent, which resents being back-seated now that voters have assessed what's going on.

So now on to Lil' college kid football player Humphrey, who of course couldn't attend U of Texas in his wildest dreams lest it be for his exceptional God-given athletic ability that the vast majority were not blessed with.  How many people were denied admission to UT with scores and grades twice that of Lil Jordan?

If being patriotic is just too much to ask anymore, we should discontinue the National Anthem before games.  Here's hoping Lil' Jordan is a just college flash who never plays a down in the NFL.  He doesn't deserve pomp and glory and millions, he deserves the humble life that most of us are blessed with.  And we stand for the Anthem.

Mr Tulip

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Re: College football players and politics ....
« Reply #15 on: July 20, 2018, 03:45:56 PM »
Playing the National Anthem isn't some plot to authoritarianism. Neither is kneeling for the anthem a rejection of America or its ideals.

You give those players the stage. You give them the "pomp" and the "millions". None of them do anything more than play a game, yet you watch. You care.

NFL players are free to negotiate whatever fee the market will bear for their services. Because of their unique skills (and the affection the public shows for them), that's usually a lot of money. However, some of them wish to use the light they're given to cast light on members of America not afforded those freedoms. Some were shot and killed because the organ of authority thought they looked dangerous. While these are isolated incidents and can't be used to condemn any systems in the whole, America gets stronger when we realize that part of America exists, and we work to lift it up.

BrownCounty

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Re: College football players and politics ....
« Reply #16 on: July 20, 2018, 04:27:07 PM »
You give those players the stage. You give them the "pomp" and the "millions". None of them do anything more than play a game, yet you watch. You care.

NFL players are free to negotiate whatever fee the market will bear for their services.

I think it's only fair to say no - no I don't watch, and no I don't care.  The NFL that is.

I agree that players are free to negotiate a contract, and I don't begrudge that in the least.  Any country that affords one the right to be a millionaire while playing a game should seem like Utopia to said ball player.  But alas, the venomous re-programming of identity politics can poison the purest of its consumers.

The market is also free to say the heck with this, and the market is also free to create the XFL where players are forced to stand, and anyone with a criminal record is not allowed to be employed.

I'll cheer for the market.


CharleyHorse46

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Re: College football players and politics ....
« Reply #17 on: July 20, 2018, 04:32:50 PM »
Eh

The world is full of stupid people with stupid notions who get butt hurt over stupid things.

Meanwhile the truly machiavellian ones just love the distractions.

I'd rather live, let live, mind my own business and talk football.

BrownCounty

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Re: College football players and politics ....
« Reply #18 on: July 20, 2018, 05:37:51 PM »
I'd rather live, let live, mind my own business...

Yeah I agree, that's the best way to be.  I just had a slight relapse.

I think that guy that started the "you know what I hate" thread started rubbing off on me.

I need to play it cool like you do.

CousinFreddie

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Re: College football players and politics ....
« Reply #19 on: August 09, 2018, 02:34:54 PM »
I agree with Erin's take. 
And, I'll add that kneeling in front of the flag is not a sign of disrespect.  They're not flipping off or mooning the flag or doing a drunken Rosanne Barr rendition of the anthem, and it's not intended against the country or anything any one of us who have served in the armed forces have defended.  It's simply a passive and respectful posture to state that something in their opinion is not right and needs to get fixed in this free society we have.  In fact, it's the kind of freedom we hope to have, to be able to express one's opinion respectfully in a free and open society. 
If we want to talk respect for the flag, what I was taught in the USMC is that you're not to treat the flag like clothing or let it drag on the ground or present it a flippant way or the like.  Yet you see people from all walks of life doing this, using the image of the flag for a beer coozy or a bandana or a pair of pants, and yet no one criticizes them.  I personally don't offended by that, but I find it ironic when you see someone who is literally using the flag as a pair of britches criticize someone else for disrespect for that same flag. 
And, I'll have to say that I'm really tired of the over-patriotizing and over-politicizing of sporting events in general.  It used to be that we had a single national anthem and we all recognized the country and then we got on with the fun of the game and that was it.  Now, you go to a MLB game and every time you turn around, it's time to honor another veteran (all well deserved of course, but still), and in the 7th inning stretch now we're told to stand and take off our caps and honor the country for God Bless America, which we just got through doing 6 and half innings ago with the anthem.  What happened to Take Me Out to the Ballgame?  What happened to being able to go to a game and just lose yourself in it?  A game is supposed to be a fun and carefree time, not a constant reminder of duty and sacrifice.

utee94

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Re: College football players and politics ....
« Reply #20 on: August 09, 2018, 03:22:28 PM »
I agree with Erin's take.  
And, I'll add that kneeling in front of the flag is not a sign of disrespect.  They're not flipping off or mooning the flag or doing a drunken Rosanne Barr rendition of the anthem, and it's not intended against the country or anything any one of us who have served in the armed forces have defended.  It's simply a passive and respectful posture to state that something in their opinion is not right and needs to get fixed in this free society we have.  In fact, it's the kind of freedom we hope to have, to be able to express one's opinion respectfully in a free and open society.  
If we want to talk respect for the flag, what I was taught in the USMC is that you're not to treat the flag like clothing or let it drag on the ground or present it a flippant way or the like.  Yet you see people from all walks of life doing this, using the image of the flag for a beer coozy or a bandana or a pair of pants, and yet no one criticizes them.  I personally don't offended by that, but I find it ironic when you see someone who is literally using the flag as a pair of britches criticize someone else for disrespect for that same flag.  
And, I'll have to say that I'm really tired of the over-patriotizing and over-politicizing of sporting events in general.  It used to be that we had a single national anthem and we all recognized the country and then we got on with the fun of the game and that was it.  Now, you go to a MLB game and every time you turn around, it's time to honor another veteran (all well deserved of course, but still), and in the 7th inning stretch now we're told to stand and take off our caps and honor the country for God Bless America, which we just got through doing 6 and half innings ago with the anthem.  What happened to Take Me Out to the Ballgame?  What happened to being able to go to a game and just lose yourself in it?  A game is supposed to be a fun and carefree time, not a constant reminder of duty and sacrifice.

But you see, neither you nor I get to tell the people that are offended by it, the people that believe to be disrespectful, that their opinions are wrong.  That's the whole point of it all. The kneeling protesters are free to their beliefs, but the people that find it disrespectful are free to theirs as well.
I can't tell the "kneeling protester" that he shouldn't feel aggrieved by the problems he sees in society, but I also can't tell the "offended patriot" that he shouldn't find it disrespectful.  You don't get to make that determination.  None of us do.
In general, I agree with the sentiment of your post.  But what I highlighted above and what I responded to, are something really key that the "kneeling protesters"-- and those that agree with them-- just keep on missing.
It's important to point out that the kneeling protesters are doing this deliberately, in order to gain attention and press their point.  They're not doing it unknowingly, it's precisely because it's such a volatile issue, that they choose to do it.  So let's not pretend they're just casually kneeling around. I don't seem them doing it during the Budweiser commercial or the Dr. Pepper halftime football toss contest to win $20,000 and free Dr. Pepper for life.  They're choosing to do it specifically during the singing of the national anthem, because they know that is the most highly charged choice they can make, and therefore gain attention for their cause.
All of that is fine from a First Amendment perspective, the government can't throw then in jail for it.  But that doesn't mean that their choices and political statements won't have consequences.  One of which, is that it IS considered disrespectful by, and it DOES offend, various groups of American citizens.
And nobody-- NOBODY-- has the right to tell them they can't be offended by it.

CousinFreddie

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Re: College football players and politics ....
« Reply #21 on: August 09, 2018, 03:41:09 PM »
I agree that this cuts both ways.  I never said anything about those offended by the protests.  They have the right to counter-protest, of course, in the same passive, non-violent way at least.  No argument from me.

By the same token, of course, I have the right to my opinion that it's not a sign of disrespect to kneel (the text you highlighted).

We should be able to agree to disagree agreeably.  Society should remain civil and we can air our differences.  That's the whole point.

« Last Edit: August 09, 2018, 03:46:20 PM by CousinFreddie »

FearlessF

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Re: College football players and politics ....
« Reply #22 on: August 09, 2018, 03:46:45 PM »
But that doesn't mean that their choices and political statements won't have consequences. 


there ya go
"Courage; Generosity; Fairness; Honor; In these are the true awards of manly sport."

utee94

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Re: College football players and politics ....
« Reply #23 on: August 09, 2018, 03:57:34 PM »
I agree that this cuts both ways.  I never said anything about those offended by the protests.  They have the right to counter-protest, of course, in the same passive, non-violent way at least.  No argument from me.

By the same token, of course, I have the right to my opinion that it's not a sign of disrespect to kneel (the text you highlighted).

We should be able to agree to disagree agreeably.  Society should remain civil and we can air our differences.  That's the whole point.


But what I see primarily, is a complete lack of sympathy/understanding on the part of the kneelers and the kneeling-sympathizers.
You asserted that "kneeling in front of the flag is not a sign of disrespect" but that's not only a charged statement, it's also a fundamentally incorrect one.
The way to say it, is "I don't find it disrespectful."
Disagreeing agreeably can only begin with text that is open to the disagreement and not assertive in nature.
And while I do find the kneeling mildly disrespectful, I'm not going to turn off a football game or stop watching certain players if they're doing it.  As long as they're doing it peacefully, it's fine with me.  But I'm sympathetic to those that find it offensive, and I know and their rights to enact that however they see fit as long as they, too, are peaceful and respectful.

utee94

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Re: College football players and politics ....
« Reply #24 on: August 09, 2018, 04:34:24 PM »
But I completely agree on the over-patriotism and over-politicizing of sporting events, which are supposed to be fun, and an escape.

Although I really like the singing of the national anthem, if it's going to become divisive, then perhaps it's no longer a useful activity at a sporting event.

And I also agree that there are people that are paying lip service to "disrespecting the flag" in this specific case, either because they simply want to be contentious, or they are overtly racist, or various other reasons.  Using the flag as a koozie, or as a bandana, could certainly be viewed as disrespectful to the flag.  Similarly, continuing your purchase of a hot dog, or your conversation, or leaving your hat on your head, could also be viewed as disrespectful of the national anthem.  

I have no problem if people apply their views consistently, but calling out NFL players for kneeling, while simultaneously purchasing a soft pretzel and stuffing your pie hole with it during that song, is hypocrisy of a high order.

CousinFreddie

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Re: College football players and politics ....
« Reply #25 on: August 09, 2018, 04:43:27 PM »
But what I see primarily, is a complete lack of sympathy/understanding on the part of the kneelers and the kneeling-sympathizers.
You asserted that "kneeling in front of the flag is not a sign of disrespect" but that's not only a charged statement, it's also a fundamentally incorrect one.
The way to say it, is "I don't find it disrespectful."
Disagreeing agreeably can only begin with text that is open to the disagreement and not assertive in nature.
And while I do find the kneeling mildly disrespectful, I'm not going to turn off a football game or stop watching certain players if they're doing it.  As long as they're doing it peacefully, it's fine with me.  But I'm sympathetic to those that find it offensive, and I know and their rights to enact that however they see fit as long as they, too, are peaceful and respectful.
I was just stating my opinion, and whether I put "I don't find it" in front of that opinion or not changes nothing - it's just an opinion. 

I am not offended by the kneeling, and think they have a right to do so, and expressed that as opinion that "it's not a sign of disrespect".  Obviously that's a subjective statement and an expression of my point of view. 

I didn't say anything about those who feel differently.  They obviously have the right to their opinions, and I don't need them to say "I find it to be" in front "it's a show of disrespect" for their opinion to be legitimate.

Believe me, I am related to a number of people who are offended, and I don't think anything lesser of them because they are.  It's their right to be offended.  But I'm not.

utee94

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Re: College football players and politics ....
« Reply #26 on: August 09, 2018, 07:05:33 PM »
Fair enough.

Kneeling when the national anthem is played is disrespectful.


CousinFreddie

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Re: College football players and politics ....
« Reply #27 on: August 09, 2018, 07:26:19 PM »
Fair enough.

 

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