open letter to Coach Butch Jones

[847badgerfan]

Guys like David Shaw, Chris Peterson and Gary Patterson come to mind. Even Dantonio, who had a bad year last season, is in that tier. Franklin?

BUT

Would those guys leave their spot for a job at Tennessee, LSU or Nebraska? That is the big question.


Dabo is probably in that first tier. Maybe Fisher?

Saban is not in a tier. Saban doesn't need a tier. He's in his own world, with Bryant, Paterno and the other all-time greats.

1st tier is Urban, Fisher and Dabo.

2nd tier is much bigger and includes guys I mentioned above, along with guys like Richt, Snyder, Gundy, Mullen, Leach, Gus, Petrino, Ferentz, and yes, Jim Harbaugh.

Not sure what to do with guys like Fitzgerald and Cutcliffe, and then the other guys who have not done it very long but show great signs.

Then you have a guy like Bielema. Good coach, good program manager? Was his success in Madison because of the program his boss built? It's starting to look that way from where I sit. Where he sits might be getting a little hot.

This reasoning is why I'm not including the current UW coach in that tier - yet. We'll see what happens, but I do know he's had to remake/correct a lot of things when he got back home and that he's not done yet.

[Cincydawg]

I would hate to be an AD looking for a new HC in 2017/8.  I would have a lot of company.

[847badgerfan]

From the SEC, you're probably gonna have a few. Mizzou? Ole Miss? A&M?

The seats in Fayetteburgh and Knoxboro are probably warming up. Anyone else?

I think all the coaches in the B1G are safe right now, sans Riley at Nebraska.

In the XII maybe a few like Kansas and ISU and Baylor. Who wants those jobs though?

Seems like the only hot seat in the ACC could be NCSU. He's had a lot of time there and hasn't been able to push through. BC maybe?

The PAC has the most, probably. Mora, Andersen, RichRod and Graham are feeling the heat.

The most attractive openings could be A&M, UNL and UCLA.

The guys who coach at places like Memphis and SDSU are licking their chops.

[Cincydawg]

In the SEC, I'd say ADs will be under pressure to fire and hire at:

Ole Miss
Mizzou
A&M
Tennessee
Auburn
LSU

I'm not saying they will all pull the trigger of course.  South Carolina is probably two years away, I'm not at all sold on their coach and their loss at home to UK is pretty bad.  Florida, UGA, and Vandy are safe (though the Vandy coach might listen to offers, the other side to this is that a program loses a coach).

But, the other factor is that several of those programs listed above are "name programs" and have some ability to offer megabucks.

Nationally, I think Notre Dame might be looking depending.  They are something like 6-19 over their last set of games.

[MikeDeTiger]

Is he on the next tier down? No conference titles. No division titles. Don't you at least have to win something in college to be on the next tier down?

So after all that, you agree he's on the next tier down from Urbz.  

It's like you want me to waste keystrokes.  

If you wanted to note your distinction between Saban and Urbz, you should've done that up front, we could've avoided all this.  

I'll say fair enough for now, while noting that Saban's titles at two different schools have come over a longer period of time than Urban has been going at two different schools, and Urban's not done yet.  As is Saban.  I don't know that there's the distinction you think there is, but I'm not convinced there's not, either.  

[MikeDeTiger]

CD, 

LSU is not going to be looking for a coach at the end of the year.  We could go 0-8 in the conference and it's not going to happen.  Not even Alleva is that dumb.  

[MikeDeTiger]

I still don't get rtf4's and Badger's insistence that championships are a definitive criteria.  You guys are arguing that Miles is a better coach/higher tier than Harbaugh, you realize that, don't you?  I can't see marrying myself to that idea.  

This is the type of thinking that says Robert Horry is better than Michael Jordan, and Brady is 2.5x better than Manning, who is 2x as good as Brees.  

[847badgerfan]

So after all that, you agree he's on the next tier down from Urbz.  

It's like you want me to waste keystrokes.  

If you wanted to note your distinction between Saban and Urbz, you should've done that up front, we could've avoided all this.  

I'll say fair enough for now, while noting that Saban's titles at two different schools have come over a longer period of time than Urban has been going at two different schools, and Urban's not done yet.  As is Saban.  I don't know that there's the distinction you think there is, but I'm not convinced there's not, either.  

He's pretty far down in that next tier and has a long, long way to go to get in the higher one. Getting into the lower one is probably more likely, in my opinion.

He gets high marks for improving programs, no doubt. It's the "win something" thing that is holding him back.

What do you guys make of my thoughts on Bielema?

[847badgerfan]

I still don't get rtf4's and Badger's insistence that championships are a definitive criteria.  You guys are arguing that Miles is a better coach/higher tier than Harbaugh, you realize that, don't you?  I can't see marrying myself to that idea.  

This is the type of thinking that says Robert Horry is better than Michael Jordan, and Brady is 2.5x better than Manning, who is 2x as good as Brees.  

It's not fair to compare player accomplishments with coaching accomplishments.

At some point, your bite has to match your bark and JH is not there yet.

Miles was a great coach. He just got dated. It happens. That run he had, in THAT conference no less, was pretty incredible.

[OrangeAfroMan]

Miles' issue was that he couldn't keep up with his own history.  That happens.  If your first 5 years are better than your second 5 years, no matter how good those 2nd-five years are, people start talking.  It's not fair, but for the money they get paid, fair doesn't matter.

Fulmer had the same issue.  

Personally, more than championships, in college football - specifically - you have to matter in November.  Doesn't matter if you're 3rd in the country or 11th or with 2 losses or undefeated, if you routinely get to November with your goals still in play, you matter and you're safe.

[Cincydawg]

Yeah, Richt also suffered in his last few years compared with his first ten or so.  There was the impression the Dawgs were sliding backwards (more than an impression).  They were 20-6 in his last two seasons and it wasn't sufficient.

[Drew4UTk]

It wasn't Fulmer, per say.. it was the trio of cutcliff/FULMER/chavis ... together, they were magic.  apart, they're just okay. 

Miles played with fire constantly... I imagine him sneaking out the back of his folk's house when he was a child with a dollhouse swiped from his sister under one arm, a bottle of grill lighter fluid in the opposing paw, and a magnifying glass in his back pocket headed toward the shed his pa keeps volatile chemicals and explosives in..... so he can have some privacy... Live by the sword, die by the sword- and that's what happened to him by my reckoning. 

Richt is an interesting study to me... the man is/was a great OC- and a great just plain human being... His team's were well coached, but his lack of killer instinct manifest itself by giving coaches more rope after they'd proven they weren't up to the task- and speaking of up to the task- Richt's gameplan was his demise imHo.  It's NOT that is was bad- to the contrary- it was good bordering great... to the point it required only a little adjustment to break into great... perpetually... and that did it... the 'study' i mentioned is the trap he fell in- he was almost a champion.. enough to believe in what he had going instead of chopping it and going back to the drawing board.  a ball bounced this way, or a call wen that way, and his team didn't make the championship- outside his control almost- inside his control were things like doggedly repeating game plans (they worked, why not, right?) and building a well documented attack that could be anticipated and likely not shut down by many (lessor East opponents) but could consistently be shut down by the other SEC threats... it was almost, all the time... and I'd rather have something going that is an obvious failure so that i'd know it needed to be abandoned rather than what he had- something that perpetually almostworked.  

what the SEC had a few years ago was amazing... Myer, Saben, Miles, Fulmer, Spurrier, Tubberville, Richt.... I don't know if that could possibly be repeated. 

[MikeDeTiger]

You guys seem to have a lot more respect for Miles than most of the LSU fans I've ever known.  Most of them would tell you all his successes are due to Saban and all his shortcomings were his own doing.  As a microcosm of that, every game LSU won was in spite of his coaching and every game LSU lost was because of his coaching.  My dad swears that Miles only succeeded because of the strong program Saban left him with, and the historic loss to MSU Saturday was because O is having to deal with the mess Miles left him (10-3 and a talented roster is a mess).  I'd have to say he's more the rule than the exception.  

I don't know how to argue with that, but you can't deny it is a neat bit of mental gymnastics wherein you create a scenario where your opinion about him can't be wrong.  

I heard clips of callers to an Ohio State radio talk show after the OU loss and those idgits were calling for Urban to be fired.  Maybe all fans are nuts.  

[rolltidefan]

I still don't get rtf4's and Badger's insistence that championships are a definitive criteria.  You guys are arguing that Miles is a better coach/higher tier than Harbaugh, you realize that, don't you?  I can't see marrying myself to that idea.  

This is the type of thinking that says Robert Horry is better than Michael Jordan, and Brady is 2.5x better than Manning, who is 2x as good as Brees.  

i'd like to take a second moment to mention that rolltidefan (me, formerly rolltidefan4 or rtf4) and rolltidefan2 are separate people.
second, i agree with both of you to an extent. like rtf2 and badger, i'd say coaches with titles is a good starting point.
but i don't think it's a good end point either. sustaining success, or reemerging from a down period is another strong point. and just because a coach hasn't wont a title doesn't mean he isn't upper echelon. no better example than ksu's snyder, who is arguably one of the best ever.