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Topic: OT - Nassar

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ELA

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Re: OT - Nassar
« Reply #28 on: January 25, 2018, 10:54:32 AM »
Additional scholarships would give MSU gymnastics a competitive advantage, but it seems to me sexual abuse is a competitive disadvantage. More scholarships or some other remunerative thing to make up for past abuses would seem appropriate. My guess is it happened a lot more than 150 times amongst all women and girls he "treated." I would guess there are some too embarrassed to come forward to discuss this type of physical abuse.
Although the literature recognizes what he was doing, as a legitimate procedure, I would not be surprised to find other literature challenging the legitimacy of this procedure, or discouraging its use except in intractable situations.
Oh absolutely.
As to the first, there's no doubt.  While he treated people through his capacities as MSU and USA doctor, I actually read very few of the victims who spoke were MSU students/athletes or USA gymnasts.  A lot saw him through MSU medical, but not through the university.  So who would they have reported to?  I'm sure many, many, many, many more of them stayed silent.
As for the procedure itself.  The judge mentioned she was anticipating a medical defense was forthcoming and he pled instead.  I'm assuming that's because after the images on the computer, the fact that he did it alone, and without gloves, made it impossible to argue that it was medical.  Plus you throw in how many cases there were.  No way.  As you said, I can't imagine anyone advocating it as a first choice.  But I do anticipate it being brought up as a defense for MSU, and that's where we will determine what they knew and how valid it was.  If only a half dozen of the 14 reports made it above the assistant coach or trainer or whoever was initially told.  6 cases in 20 years, seems far more believable.  And who exactly are they going to turn to with MORE expertise than the USA doctor.  Again, this isn't me, this is me speculating as to their defense.  The real issues come from 2014 on, when they opened their investigation, and didn't have good collaboration between departments, and then didn't have anyone enforcing that he always had to be doing this with someone else in the room.  2014 on, I don't see what they could plausibly argue.  It's 1997-2014 that I presume we'll see this defense.
I also wonder how much is going to come back on disgraced former Ingham County prosecutor Stuart Dunnings, who was in office from 1997 until 2016 until arrested for solicitation.  Even prior to his arrest he had a very weird reputation.  There were rumors about him for years, but the locals loved him because he was very harsh on MSU.  MSU fans liked to say it was because he was a third generation UM alum, I think it was just more because as a whole East Lansing/Lansing area residents and MSU students do not get along, and he knew his voting base.  But here IIRC he said in two different instances when MSU police brought him Nassar related cases, that there wasn't enough to pursue it further.  If you are looking for a story to keep this going, I imagine the jailed former prosecutor who ignored MSU police will probably get hit at some point.

Hawkinole

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Re: OT - Nassar
« Reply #29 on: January 25, 2018, 11:24:20 AM »
There does tend to be a piling on effect as to disgraced people. But to your point, who do you go to, higher up than the USA Gymnastics doctor for opinion on the legitimacy of a treatment given to athletes? I don't think the local prosecuting attorney can be easily faulted, he would have to have an expert witness whose opinion is not just more sound by a preponderance of the evidence, than Nassar's, but more sound beyond a reasonable doubt. It is Nassar's computer and his repetitive abuse that brought this out. Otherwise he'd still be in the business of "Larry being Larry." And county prosecution budgets will not ordinarily be spent on speculative adventures. I think he'd need institutional help from elsewhere.

What seems so obvious after the fact is never as obvious as it seems at the time.

MSU and USA Gymnastics were in the best position to investigate and find the correct answer. In this case it was the journalism that led to more questions being asked. MSU and USA Gymnastics are institutions with funding. They had a duty of care to young girls and women making complaints of sexual abuse. You cannot expect victims to expend $10,000 or $20,000 or more on attorneys and expert opinions to determine, "Did this constitute abuse of your daughter?" A 20-year old  broke college student could not be expected to get an expert opinion to pursue this without the support of an institution that owes her a duty of care and help. The institutional support was lacking. An investigation will ultimately show why it was lacking . . . perhaps fear of denigrating a colleague, or fear of institutional embarrassment. We'll see what they find.

ELA

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Re: OT - Nassar
« Reply #30 on: January 25, 2018, 12:16:40 PM »
There does tend to be a piling on effect as to disgraced people. But to your point, who do you go to, higher up than the USA Gymnastics doctor for opinion on the legitimacy of a treatment given to athletes? I don't think the local prosecuting attorney can be easily faulted, he would have to have an expert witness whose opinion is not just more sound by a preponderance of the evidence, than Nassar's, but more sound beyond a reasonable doubt. It is Nassar's computer and his repetitive abuse that brought this out. Otherwise he'd still be in the business of "Larry being Larry." And county prosecution budgets will not ordinarily be spent on speculative adventures. I think he'd need institutional help from elsewhere.

What seems so obvious after the fact is never as obvious as it seems at the time.

MSU and USA Gymnastics were in the best position to investigate and find the correct answer. In this case it was the journalism that led to more questions being asked. MSU and USA Gymnastics are institutions with funding. They had a duty of care to young girls and women making complaints of sexual abuse. You cannot expect victims to expend $10,000 or $20,000 or more on attorneys and expert opinions to determine, "Did this constitute abuse of your daughter?" A 20-year old  broke college student could not be expected to get an expert opinion to pursue this without the support of an institution that owes her a duty of care and help. The institutional support was lacking. An investigation will ultimately show why it was lacking . . . perhaps fear of denigrating a colleague, or fear of institutional embarrassment. We'll see what they find.
I meant more in the court of public opinion.  "Disgraced, jailed, former DA ignored MSU Police's request to investigate" seems like a forthcoming headline.
As to everything you said, I agree.

Geolion91

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Re: OT - Nassar
« Reply #31 on: January 25, 2018, 12:31:12 PM »
Only because Penn State let them.  The second Penn State changed their mind, the NCAA backed down in a heartbeat.

And I'm not saying they shouldn't have.  My position on that has been consistently that the NCAA could not have handled that worse.  Either say it's a criminal matter and stay out of it, or say it isn't, and impose your sanctions.  But to sanction them, then get scared in the face of a lawsuit, and instead of saying you were wrong, say after 2 years that everything is better and you are removing the sanctions was laughable.
Absolutely agree.  The Board of Trustees stuck their collective tail between their legs.  I wasn't disagreeing with you, but the reference to the MSU trustee.

ELA

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Re: OT - Nassar
« Reply #32 on: January 25, 2018, 02:12:36 PM »
Absolutely agree.  The Board of Trustees stuck their collective tail between their legs.  I wasn't disagreeing with you, but the reference to the MSU trustee.
And the other problem in the NCAA doing it this way is maybe the end result is fine...if this never happens again.  Cool, we rolled back the penalties without having to actually admit we were wrong.  Except now it happened again.  And the NCAA never admitted to overstepping its bounds.  So now it has to either do something or be accused of a double standard.  Like I said, I think their way out is that it was gymnastics, and I doubt they'll get a ton of backlash.  They can impose a fine on the school, and penalize gymnastics.  Then it would be in line with the PSU initial punishment of fining the school, but only punishing the sport responsible on the field.  Again, the problem is maybe they dodge another bullet...until this happens again (and it will) with a football or basketball program.

medinabuckeye1

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Re: OT - Nassar
« Reply #33 on: January 25, 2018, 02:19:15 PM »
This whole thing is just unreal.  

I think most people will want to vilify the various administrators and prosecutors involved but, for the reasons given by some of our lawyers above I can understand why charges were not brought.  Where would a local prosecutor go to find a doctor with more authority than the team Doc for the USA Gymnastics team?  That would be a tough nut to crack.  

When you look at everything in combination:
  • all the accusations (not just one or two), AND
  • the child porn on his PC
Obviously when you are looking at all of this together the case against him is pretty easy.  The problem is that nobody was looking at all of this together until recently.  

I agree with the comments in this thread.  MSU's mishandling of the PR on this is astounding.  

MarqHusker

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Re: OT - Nassar
« Reply #34 on: January 25, 2018, 04:30:16 PM »
Not to sidetrack this, but I'd like to underscore Hawkinole's comments on the Judge.  Her sentencing was quite....unusual.   I've read a few very negative takes on her handling of the allocution, particularly her rather self indulgent remarks.  I sure hope it doesn't lead to an appellate issue.

847badgerfan

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Re: OT - Nassar
« Reply #35 on: January 25, 2018, 04:39:53 PM »
Only because Penn State let them.  The second Penn State changed their mind, the NCAA backed down in a heartbeat.

And I'm not saying they shouldn't have.  My position on that has been consistently that the NCAA could not have handled that worse.  Either say it's a criminal matter and stay out of it, or say it isn't, and impose your sanctions.  But to sanction them, then get scared in the face of a lawsuit, and instead of saying you were wrong, say after 2 years that everything is better and you are removing the sanctions was laughable.
This. The PSU brass knew their goose was going to be cooked so they took the path of least resistance and sacrificed an entire program to try and save themselves. That's how it looks from here anyway.

MF'ers need to be tarred and feathered.
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847badgerfan

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Re: OT - Nassar
« Reply #36 on: January 25, 2018, 04:42:02 PM »
Not to sidetrack this, but I'd like to underscore Hawkinole's comments on the Judge.  Her sentencing was quite....unusual.   I've read a few very negative takes on her handling of the allocution, particularly her rather self indulgent remarks.  I sure hope it doesn't lead to an appellate issue.
I felt like I was watching a movie - wondering if that judge was a paid actor or an actual judge. It was weird. Very weird.

"I just signed your death warrant."

Really?? That does not seem "judgely" to me.
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PSUinNC

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Re: OT - Nassar
« Reply #37 on: January 25, 2018, 04:51:18 PM »
And the other problem in the NCAA doing it this way is maybe the end result is fine...if this never happens again.  Cool, we rolled back the penalties without having to actually admit we were wrong.  Except now it happened again.  And the NCAA never admitted to overstepping its bounds.  So now it has to either do something or be accused of a double standard.  Like I said, I think their way out is that it was gymnastics, and I doubt they'll get a ton of backlash.  They can impose a fine on the school, and penalize gymnastics.  Then it would be in line with the PSU initial punishment of fining the school, but only punishing the sport responsible on the field.  Again, the problem is maybe they dodge another bullet...until this happens again (and it will) with a football or basketball program.
I believe the situations greatly differ b/c of the publicity involved in them. 
The minute Sandusky was arrested, the media swooped in and made a HUGE deal of this.  The four-letter basically set up a State College satellite office, the PSU logo was over Brian Williams' shoulder to start the nightly news EVERY night for 2-3 weeks.  It involved St. Joe of State College, his Camelot, and it was "juicy" (by media standards) to see it crumble.  The NCAA IMMEDIATELY got involved and put the pressure on PSU.  We'll never really know what the likes of Ed Ray and the NCAA brash were threatening to Penn State at the time, the DP to a massive revenue generator for the school was completely on the table.  I'll agree - Penn State's leadership tucked tail, but given the circumstances and the intense public outcry who knows what else may have happened had they not in that immediacy.  
Fast forward to 2016 when this all came out at first - we had the most ludicrous election in our country's modern history and ever since we've had a media that's focused on one thing and one thing only - TRUMP.  This was maybe a blip on the radar until what, a month or two ago?  Even at that time, this hasn't been topic #1 on mainstream media for even a few weeks now, and frankly only in the last 2 weeks when all of these girls had the incredible courage to MAKE it a story and bring the necessary attention to it.  THEY are the ones forcing it and making the media take notice of this, while the media worries about what porn star Trump had sex with in 1991.  That's the shame in all of this.  Point blank - this story wasn't click-bait enough for mainstream media until about 2 weeks ago.  It 'only' involved gymnastics and some doctor no one ever heard about.  God Bless those courageous young women for what they did the past two weeks.  
My point to this is mainly directed at the media and the coverage; that's why the NCAA hasn't gotten too involved.  They don't want to deal with this again and it wasn't at the forefront of every damn news outlet every damn night like PSU was in 2011/2012.  But now may not have any choice to get involved b/c of what was previously said regarding a double standard if they don't.  Once again, the NCAA will massively screw this up.  
I don't want to see a great institution like Michigan St. battered like Penn St was; it wasn't fair then it isn't fair now.  The ones in charge, that's another story.  The ones in charge at Penn State paid and are paying the price (Paterno would be included if he was still alive).  The same thing should happen to anyone at MSU and USAG as well.  
To hell with the media in our country and the fact they seem to think they can control the narrative anymore.  

847badgerfan

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Re: OT - Nassar
« Reply #38 on: January 25, 2018, 04:55:53 PM »
To hell with the media in our country and the fact they seem to think they can control the narrative anymore.  

So.. This could be a whole separate topic by itself, but it would probably have to end up on the board on the "south" side of this site that is not moderated.

Heh.
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SFBadger96

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Re: OT - Nassar
« Reply #39 on: January 25, 2018, 05:27:56 PM »
Not to sidetrack this, but I'd like to underscore Hawkinole's comments on the Judge.  Her sentencing was quite....unusual.   I've read a few very negative takes on her handling of the allocution, particularly her rather self indulgent remarks.  I sure hope it doesn't lead to an appellate issue.
I don't know how much discretion trial judges get in Michigan, but if I were the defense attorney I would sure be looking at an appeal challenging her partiality and asking for a new sentencing hearing with a new judge. That was my immediate reaction to her  comments about the 8th amendment.  Just a little judicial restraint would have gone a long way.


As for the media...one of the reasons we're all here is that we don't really buy into the media's narratives. Nonetheless, we shouldn't forget that it was the media that finally got the ball rolling against Nassar.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2018, 05:32:24 PM by SFBadger96 »

ELA

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Re: OT - Nassar
« Reply #40 on: January 25, 2018, 05:51:51 PM »
I don't know how much discretion trial judges get in Michigan, but if I were the defense attorney I would sure be looking at an appeal challenging her partiality and asking for a new sentencing hearing with a new judge. That was my immediate reaction to her  comments about the 8th amendment.  Just a little judicial restraint would have gone a long way.


As for the media...one of the reasons we're all here is that we don't really buy into the media's narratives. Nonetheless, we shouldn't forget that it was the media that finally got the ball rolling against Nassar.
Investigative journalism is still pretty good, but the news industry is in such a bad way, and it simply doesn't sell nearly enough to be worth the cost of those types of pieces.  Hell, I bet they got more clicks with a headline stating "I've just signed your death sentence," than they did for the initial investigative piece in the Indy Star.
I recall while watching Spotlight (which is one of the best movies I've seen the past couple years) how there is no way that could have happened today.  To have that many people, and that many resources committed to a story for months before anything got printed.  The had an uphill battle then, and now it would be downright impossible.  Can't blame the decision makers either when sensationalist news sells more, and all the time and resources they put into other stuff is free everywhere within minutes.

betarhoalphadelta

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Re: OT - Nassar
« Reply #41 on: January 25, 2018, 07:07:29 PM »
Investigative journalism is still pretty good, but the news industry is in such a bad way, and it simply doesn't sell nearly enough to be worth the cost of those types of pieces.  Hell, I bet they got more clicks with a headline stating "I've just signed your death sentence," than they did for the initial investigative piece in the Indy Star.
I recall while watching Spotlight (which is one of the best movies I've seen the past couple years) how there is no way that could have happened today.  To have that many people, and that many resources committed to a story for months before anything got printed.  The had an uphill battle then, and now it would be downright impossible.  Can't blame the decision makers either when sensationalist news sells more, and all the time and resources they put into other stuff is free everywhere within minutes.
It's one of the reasons I got out of blogging. One of the other writers at the site would through out some 300 word piece of political fluff and get a bunch of hits and comments. I'd put together a well thought out and researched 2000 word article and crickets. 
People just don't have the attention span any more.

 

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