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The Power Five => Big Ten => Topic started by: ELA on January 24, 2018, 08:17:27 AM

Title: OT - Nassar
Post by: ELA on January 24, 2018, 08:17:27 AM
I know we had a thread on the old board, then it sort of went away.  I think it's worth bringing up again now with it back in the news.  Obviously his crimes are horrific, but we've known about them for 18 months, and more or less nothing has changed there.  What changed was the bravery of those victims in putting a face to his crimes, and one by one making their stand.  I don't honestly think they are getting enough credit for what they are doing.

I don't want to brush past them, but this is a college football board, and honestly, is there any disagreement on anything I've said yet?

Which brings us to MSU.  I was willing to believe for a bit that is were not dotted and ts were not crossed.  That MSU's College of Orthopedic medicine wasn't communicating with MSU's Title IX department or with USA Gymnastics and vice versa.  That if any had known the other were investigating, they could have done more.  But having been personally involved with the Title IX department at MSU as well as at other universities I am well aware of how woefully under-equipped they are to do their job.  Essentially the federal government took one of their most difficult types of cases to prosecute and decided to dump it on underfunded departments within the universities, and slightly lower their burden, just so they could wash their hands of it.  I have yet to encounter one such department (and as far as Big Ten schools go, MSU and UMs are the only ones I'm familiar with) who are anywhere near competent enough at that job.  If it's a slam dunk case (either way), they have a prayer...unless one side is willing to pay big money in lawyering up, in which case you can bully them into pretty much anything you want.

So given what I know about these investigations at MSU, and elsewhere, I was willing to give some benefit of the doubt.  After all, this wasn't football.  This was gymnastics.  Why would MSU try and cover up on ongoing gymnastics scandal?  From the MSU gymnastics coach?  Sure.  Having the Team USA doctor on staff is probably not a half bad recruiting tool.  From the university?  Doesn't make sense.  So you combine a general departmental incompetence with a complete lack of motive, and I'd buy that this slipped through the cracks, and maybe was not a fireable offense.

After hearing these statements, that is not a defensible position.  It's still tough to formulate any sort of solid argument as to a cover up, but for that many people to make reports with low level staffers that went nowhere means you have a horrific lack of training in dealing with these types of matters, and/or a system for moving these reports up the chain that is inconceivably broken.

Beyond that, the handling this week is beyond horrifying, as too many people in key positions within the university showed their true colors, and they are no good.  There are just about 5 people in the entire MSU community who think President Simon deserves to keep her job, and unfortunately they are all on the Board of Trustees.  The MSU paper and MSU student government both unanimously support her dismissal, the faculty put for a vote of no confidence, my Social Media feeds from MSU friends has been universal in its horror at MSU leadership's take on this.  Yet, she remains.  Not only does she remain, but the Board issues a statement of support of her after DAY ONE of the statements.  Then you wonder why, and this asshat Trustee goes on the radio yesterday and says Simon is a great president, just look at the basketball arena renovations, MSU is "more than just this Nassar thing."

Yes, MSU is defined by more than one thing, and had MSU handled it appropriately in the beginning, they wouldn't be defined by it at all.  If they had even handled it better from 2014 (when somebody in power other than the gymnastics coach) was notified, it probably wouldn't define them.  But at this point, yes, it defines them.  I enjoy MSU sports.  But what I enjoy far more is the four years, with amazing opportunities to study, to work abroad, to obtain a degree that allowed me to pursue an advanced degree, begin my career, start my family and put a roof over their head.  That is all thanks to Michigan State University, not the MSU Spartans, and the absolute clown show running the university doesn't seem to get that in the least.

If I feel let down by them, I can only imagine how let down the real victims in all of this must feel.
Title: Re: OT - Nassar
Post by: UT-Erin03 on January 24, 2018, 12:07:24 PM
Almost all involvement of scandals can be overcome with the correct action and repercussions, unless you are the direct abuser and refuse to accept responsibility or consequence for your actions.   I can understand your feelings on this, and as a woman I will always stand by the victims and any actions taken against the ones who abused their power, or any others associated with the enabling and supporting of the abuser during the events that have been brought to light.

It's sickening how far this rabbit hole of abuse has gone, and it's devastating for all of the victims in this ring of horror.  I can only hope every sport in this country takes note and does better moving forward.  Unacceptable behavior for many associations and people, and it's gone on for too long.  Hopefully the victims can find some small solace or relief in Nassar's sentencing today, even though their lives will never be the same. 
 

Title: Re: OT - Nassar
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on January 24, 2018, 02:07:46 PM
Dude got 40-125 years. 

It probably didn't help that he bares an uncanny resemblance to Warren Jeffs.

:57:
Title: Re: OT - Nassar
Post by: HailHailMSP on January 24, 2018, 02:12:46 PM
Good summary and thoughts ELA.

It seems the survivor statements really expanded this story to a national scale. That, and of course some incredible investigative reporting by local newspapers like the IndyStar, Lansing State Journal, and others.

I cant begin to fathom the weight each of those individuals carried staring Nassar in the face in front of a full court room and national tv cameras focused on them. This one quote from one of the lesser known victims struck me the most. "Perhaps you have figured it out by now, but little girls don't stay little forever. They grow into strong women that return to destroy your world."

I don't know enough about it to get into the weeds on who knew what when for USA Gymnastics and MSU over the last two decades. What has blown my mind in all of this is how poorly Michigan State has managed the PR  the last 4-6 weeks. Hire a couple of very expensive PR consultants; it would have been well worth it.


The learning in all of this for me as a parent of course is to ask questions and be a little less trusting. Try to ensure your kids aren't in environments that leave them in closed 1 on 1 situations with adults. There was a lot of trust with an overall abusive culture in youth gymnastics that facilitated this.

Title: Re: OT - Nassar
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on January 24, 2018, 02:15:07 PM
I'll bet that gymnastics is a magnet for these types. 

Pretty blurry line between spotting and groping. 
Title: Re: OT - Nassar
Post by: MarqHusker on January 24, 2018, 02:49:50 PM
This has been one of those stories that's been covered, but people seem afraid to look at it too closely as it is so dang creepy and disgraceful.    The details in those first IndyStar stories on this were stunning to me, even though I always tell myself to never be surprised by human beings, they are capable of doing anything.

I know as a coach of young girls, not only do they remind us repeatedly not to even hold a practice alone as the solo coach (make sure some other parent is either helping, or at least in the gym, but to be alone with a player,  for pretty much any reason, no way.

I too don't really understand the approach MSU has taken on this.     If I don't have 'talking points' or some messaging here with my employer on any number of potential issues (real or perceived) I'm seeking them out before I utter a single syllable.   This is like 100X the typical white collar crisis management, yet there's no leadership.
Title: Re: OT - Nassar
Post by: ELA on January 24, 2018, 02:59:38 PM
The learning in all of this for me as a parent of course is to ask questions and be a little less trusting. Try to ensure your kids aren't in environments that leave them in closed 1 on 1 situations with adults. There was a lot of trust with an overall abusive culture in youth gymnastics that facilitated this.
One of the things that shocked me about this was how many victims said this happened when they were dropped off by their parents at Nassar's home for extra medical treatment.
Maybe more has changed in the past 5-10 years than I would think, but I would NEVER even fathom doing that with my children.
I think this all ties back to the conversation in the other thread about youth sports.  As bad as soccer, baseball, basketball, whatever is, you have time, and you have opportunities to be seen.  Hell these gymnasts are like 15 when they go to the Olympics, and that's all they've got, there is no professional gymnastics, which means you probably have to be known on the national scene by what?  10?  11?  You miss your shot, you've missed it.  The coach tells you to get this treatment, you do it.  You have a chance to be seen by the Team USA doctor, you do it.  It's also controlled by such a small number of people.  In basketball, you don't like what this AAU coach is doing, switch teams.  If you are on Geddert's bad side, you are done with USA Gymnastics.
It really was the perfect environment for a predator to thrive.  He's splitting time between three entities, so unless they compare notes...; he has two (the gym and USA Gymnastics) with a long history of turning a blind eye towards all kinds of mistreatment of kids, and a a third (MSU) which seems at best woefully incompetent and at best and negligent at worst; the nature of the sport means the majority of the athletes he's treating is minors, which are (a) what he wants and (b) less likely to report him; and you get parents who are willing to do anything to put their kids in this position.
Systemically what I hope for is an overhaul of the entire Title IX system for reporting this stuff on campus.
Title: Re: OT - Nassar
Post by: ELA on January 24, 2018, 03:03:42 PM
I too don't really understand the approach MSU has taken on this.     If I don't have 'talking points' or some messaging here with my employer on any number of potential issues (real or perceived) I'm seeking them out before I utter a single syllable.   This is like 100X the typical white collar crisis management, yet there's no leadership.
A lot of people have questioned it being a product of the academia mentality.  They are used to being able to do/say what they want, and while nobody has training for this, most people in the private sector would know not to do a lot of this.  I think there is one BOT member whose comments have made me think maybe he doesn't deserve to lose his job.  The rest?  Gone.  The President?  Gone.  The only one I'm waiting on to see what he knew/did is Hollis.  He's at least been smart enough to stay quiet.  But if he knew enough to have done more, he's gotta go too.  That would sting, he's a home grown, home educated AD< who has done amazing things for MSU.  I think just last summer he was ranked 2nd best AD in the nation by a survey of his peers.  MSU probably can never do better than him, certainly not one like him who is also an alum, not feeling pressure to jump to a Texas or a Florida if the money is there.
Title: Re: OT - Nassar
Post by: 847badgerfan on January 24, 2018, 03:17:55 PM
Have the lawsuits started yet, or it too early for that to happen?

I'm guessing the NCAA will stay away, given their epic fail in the PSU case...
Title: Re: OT - Nassar
Post by: MarqHusker on January 24, 2018, 03:28:47 PM
A lot of people have questioned it being a product of the academia mentality.  They are used to being able to do/say what they want, and while nobody has training for this, most people in the private sector would know not to do a lot of this. 
That's an excellent point.  I don't want to make this sound like a bash union/bash academia rant but this is definitely a shortcoming (accountability) at those levels.   We're getting this in our school district now,  the School District Super (Male, Phd. of course) was put on leave, and now has resigned, as has the District's HR Director (a woman).  The Board won't say boo.  Public is foaming.  sorry for the tangent. 
Title: Re: OT - Nassar
Post by: ELA on January 24, 2018, 03:48:20 PM
Have the lawsuits started yet, or it too early for that to happen?

I'm guessing the NCAA will stay away, given their epic fail in the PSU case...
Lawsuits are most certainly coming.  Rightfully so.
NCAA sent MSU a letter yesterday saying they were looking into it.  Just so happened to be a day after one of the braindead trustees went on the radio and basically laughed at the NCAA and siad if they didn't do anything about PSU, they aren't going to do anything here.
He's probably right, but the stupidity to force their hand like that is beyond words.  Particularly since the programs in question I guess would be gymnastics?  I would think they could go after MSU gymnastics without too much backlash.  To be honest, I don't know why MSU would keep the program after this.  There is no reputation there.  MSU gymnastics will forever be linked with only one thing, this.  I just think you have to wipe that off.
Title: Re: OT - Nassar
Post by: 847badgerfan on January 24, 2018, 04:10:47 PM
That's a good point.

Killing the program would send a message.
Title: Re: OT - Nassar
Post by: HailHailMSP on January 24, 2018, 04:22:47 PM
One of the things that shocked me about this was how many victims said this happened when they were dropped off by their parents at Nassar's home for extra medical treatment.
Maybe more has changed in the past 5-10 years than I would think, but I would NEVER even fathom doing that with my children.
I think this all ties back to the conversation in the other thread about youth sports.  As bad as soccer, baseball, basketball, whatever is, you have time, and you have opportunities to be seen.  Hell these gymnasts are like 15 when they go to the Olympics, and that's all they've got, there is no professional gymnastics, which means you probably have to be known on the national scene by what?  10?  11?  You miss your shot, you've missed it.  The coach tells you to get this treatment, you do it.  You have a chance to be seen by the Team USA doctor, you do it.  It's also controlled by such a small number of people.  In basketball, you don't like what this AAU coach is doing, switch teams.  If you are on Geddert's bad side, you are done with USA Gymnastics.
It really was the perfect environment for a predator to thrive.  He's splitting time between three entities, so unless they compare notes...; he has two (the gym and USA Gymnastics) with a long history of turning a blind eye towards all kinds of mistreatment of kids, and a a third (MSU) which seems at best woefully incompetent and at best and negligent at worst; the nature of the sport means the majority of the athletes he's treating is minors, which are (a) what he wants and (b) less likely to report him; and you get parents who are willing to do anything to put their kids in this position.
Systemically what I hope for is an overhaul of the entire Title IX system for reporting this stuff on campus.
You nailed it. Even taking Nassar out of the equation, the abusive nature created by Geddert alone was horrific enough. 
I have a young daughter that has fallen in love with dance (lucky me). There are some similarities at least on the smaller stage between dance and gymnastics. She's probably a few years away from practices that get lengthy on weekends (3-4 hrs), but it has me thinking what my wife and I will do if and when that time comes. Get to know the adults involved in coaching your kids. Ensure there are always two in the room with individuals. Be around practice as much as possible. Engage with your child. Etc. Etc. I do see parents just blindly drop their kid off at the door and then pick them up 4-6 hours later, not knowing who was involved with their kids. It's scary, especially in an environment where you have visiting coaches and instructors and have smaller breakout sessions happening. 
Title: Re: OT - Nassar
Post by: MaximumSam on January 24, 2018, 04:29:18 PM
It's really kind of bizarre.

1. Gordon Gee was run out of OSU for basically joking about Louisville's integrity.  That was pretty goofy, but you know, it's the age of political correctness.  Having an employee who rapes 150 people is a different sort of animal, and I'm shocked they haven't run the president out just over the optics of it.

2. The message coming out of there is also weird.  The president has done a good job with finances?  That's great, but... you know, address the whole thing.  Saying things like you barely even discussed it is not the sort of message one would want to send on this sort of matter.  OBVIOUSLY
Title: Re: OT - Nassar
Post by: ELA on January 24, 2018, 04:35:19 PM
MI State House votes 96-11 to pass a measure calling on MSU to fire Simon or for her to resign.  They had to know it was going down this path.  It was clear a week ago that this is what was right.  Hell, even if she did nothing wrong herself in the handling of it leading up to this, and that was determined at the end of a 3 year investigation, the optics of this alone still wouldn't have been worth keeping her.  But instead of doing the right thing on their own, now even when they correct it, it's the State telling them to do it.
Title: Re: OT - Nassar
Post by: HailHailMSP on January 24, 2018, 04:42:30 PM
Killing gymnastics would have broader ramifications than just that sport though. Unless, the university picked up a different sport quickly Title IX would dictate those scholarships would have to be equally displaced on the men's side as well. Not versed in B1G gymnastics to know if their is a men's program at Michigan State that might have to go down with the ship as well, or if they would have to look further beyond that. 
Title: Re: OT - Nassar
Post by: ELA on January 24, 2018, 04:46:48 PM
Killing gymnastics would have broader ramifications than just that sport though. Unless, the university picked up a different sport quickly Title IX would dictate those scholarships would have to be equally displaced on the men's side as well. Not versed in B1G gymnastics to know if their is a men's program at Michigan State that might have to go down with the ship as well, or if they would have to look further beyond that.
Yeah, that would be the flip side to it.  Maybe they could kill the hockey team while they are at it.
It wound hurt for the girls there now, but I would offer all of them full scholarships to stay and finish their studies at MSU, otherwise, obviously they would be permitted to transfer right away.
Not sure if you could do a 4 year phase out, offering no new scholarships, and letting the girls already there on scholarship finish out, and fill the other spots with on campus try outs?
Title: Re: OT - Nassar
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on January 24, 2018, 04:59:33 PM
I just checked, and they don't have men's gymnastics. 

If they did, that would open another can of worms, as I'm pretty sure the Big Ten only has 6 programs; the minimum for which they will sponsor a sport.

But yeah, good luck recruiting gymnasts after this. It'll be the first thing that pops up when googling "Michigan State Gymnastics"
Title: Re: OT - Nassar
Post by: 847badgerfan on January 24, 2018, 05:10:19 PM
Killing gymnastics would have broader ramifications than just that sport though. Unless, the university picked up a different sport quickly Title IX would dictate those scholarships would have to be equally displaced on the men's side as well. Not versed in B1G gymnastics to know if their is a men's program at Michigan State that might have to go down with the ship as well, or if they would have to look further beyond that.
Add women's hockey.
Title: Re: OT - Nassar
Post by: 847badgerfan on January 24, 2018, 05:11:54 PM
Yeah, that would be the flip side to it.  Maybe they could kill the hockey team while they are at it.
It wound hurt for the girls there now, but I would offer all of them full scholarships to stay and finish their studies at MSU, otherwise, obviously they would be permitted to transfer right away.
Not sure if you could do a 4 year phase out, offering no new scholarships, and letting the girls already there on scholarship finish out, and fill the other spots with on campus try outs?
They could also let them freely transfer and pay the cost of their tuition elsewhere, couldn't they? Or is there something in the NCAA books about that?
Title: Re: OT - Nassar
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on January 24, 2018, 05:14:29 PM
North Dakota just dropped Women's Hockey, so you could send them your gymnasts in exchange for their Hockey gals. 
Title: Re: OT - Nassar
Post by: CatsbyAZ on January 24, 2018, 05:48:18 PM
Yes, MSU is defined by more than one thing, and had MSU handled it appropriately in the beginning, they wouldn't be defined by it at all.  If they had even handled it better from 2014 (when somebody in power other than the gymnastics coach) was notified, it probably wouldn't define them.  But at this point, yes, it defines them.  I enjoy MSU sports.  But what I enjoy far more is the four years, with amazing opportunities to study, to work abroad, to obtain a degree that allowed me to pursue an advanced degree, begin my career, start my family and put a roof over their head.  That is all thanks to Michigan State University, not the MSU Spartans, and the absolute clown show running the university doesn't seem to get that in the least.

If I feel let down by them, I can only imagine how let down the real victims in all of this must feel.
As an alum I've also been angered by the lack of control the U of Arizona Athletic Dept has had over it's sports. We had a Women's Track and Field Coach go "Nassar" on a smaller scale with his female athletes. The Basketball program is now under long term investigation for a pay-for-player scheme. And the football coach was just fired for predatory negligence (?), if you can call it that. And certain characters within the dept had enough knowledge this was going on.

Watching the live Nassar case feeds today, I was suddenly glad Arizona didn't go to trial to fire RichRod for the sake of his buyout. The PR would've been awful, might've gone national, and the civil courts are coming anyway. Just cut your losses and move on.

I hear the NCAA is now investigating MSU, but my first thought was similar. It won't bleed into the TV sports we love - football & basketball. What matters even more to MSU are civil cases. 150 Nassar victims will might risk half a billion $$$ in settlements. Can a University handle that without dipping into its endowment? 

My reaction was almost word for word the same as yours. For five years of my life, probably the best years, I have nothing but treasured memories of my time as a U of Arizona student. Not to mention my education there has set me up for success in the ensuing years. To have all that goodwill get challenged by what's been allowed to fester within the institution hurts.
Title: Re: OT - Nassar
Post by: Hawkinole on January 25, 2018, 01:41:39 AM
I started the Nassar thread on the prior board. I was reluctant to pile on. But, I am opinionated on this, but it is hard to derive ultimate conclusions from these opinions. In no particular order here are some of my thoughts:
First, this was a difficult case to examine from a medical / osteopathic standpoint. I believe Nassar is an osteopath meaning he had chiropractic training. And this was some sort of transvaginal adjustment he was using that is supported by literature. I think from what I previously read, anal penetration is the first method and vaginal penetration is the alternative method, and so here is the literature as insincere as the literature may be: Look here: Journal of the American Chiropractic Association, Feb. 2003 (https://www.coccyx.org/medabs/stclaire.htm) So Nassar can point to trade literature to support his treatments, and it is very difficult for nonmedical, and even medical people to attack his "treatments" since he has education and doctors who support him, and coaches and gymnastics people (I practice law, believe me, it does).
Second, what brought down the house of cards was when during the investigation the feds found child porn on his computer. Otherwise, he would have had doctors running to his defense, and a jury would have a difficult time with the case, although they might be conflicted on the home treatments, as those seemed more dubious than the office treatments.
Third, my daughter was in tumbling and took it up in some gymnastics studios, and I see how hard these girls work (kind of wished I had hung around the North Gym of the Iowa Field House when I was in college). I admire these girls, and their work ethics. My daughters experiences and contacts with gymnasts lead me to have a great deal of empathy for these victims.
Fourth, I would feel horrible for the women/girls of State of Michigan if they took away the gymnastics program or their scholarships as it is punishing them for the sins of Larry Nassar. I feel as if the NCAA should force MSU to give more scholarships for women's gymnastics, or retroactively give scholarships to women who had less than a full ride and were adversely effected by Nassar, and pay off their student loans, or something more positive than ruining the program.
Fifth, although there is something to be said for having your day in court, I did not understand how 150 women were allowed to come and give victim impact statements when there were just 7 convictions. I read that the defendant agreed to victim impact statements. If he agreed to statements from people other than the 7 for which he was convicted, perhaps his attorneys ought to have their heads examined.
Sixth, Nassar's letter to the judge during sentencing that the judge was drawing attention to herself I thought was spot-on. I have never seen a defendant placed on the witness stand while witnesses gave statements from a podium so as to allow the defendant and judge to be recorded on video. And to make statements that the defendant would not get out of prison before the defendant even gave a statement showed to me this was a bit of a kangaroo court justice system. If these things happened in Iowa I think the sentence would be vacated and it really ought to be sent back to the trial court after appeal for re-sentencing without all the shenanigans. Nassar seems to deserve a lengthy sentence, but there is something to be said for following proper judicial process, blind justice, and without all media enhancement that went into this with some of the people apparently unwilling to even come forward earlier coming in later to give victim impact statements. So -- not only should there be a healthy review of MSU and its responses to the 14 complaints, but a healthy review of the sentencing court and its procedures are in order, as well.
Sixth, at PSU there was some sort of huge financial penalty paid, and I don't think it was truly a sports related event at PSU. This was a sports related thing at MSU. I don't know what penalties are in order, but banning coaches who didn't listen. That would be high on the list. Could the NCAA urge MSU to waive statutes of limitations in order to continue competing at NCAA events so that financial remuneration could be received by women whose complaints were poo pooed? Financial reimbursement to victims are probably the best way to discourage this conduct into the future. The statute of limitations has probably passed on many of these claims. If the NCAA could compel MSU to waive the limitations period as a condition of competing in the NCAA, that would be thinking outside the box. I think probably this should be done given the extent to which MSU supported Nassar which aided him in committing sexual abuse on women and juvenile girls.
Seventh, ELA, I am sorry this happened at your university. I would hate for this to have happened at my alma mater. My sympathies to you, as well, and you have well-stated your frustration with this whole thing.
Title: Re: OT - Nassar
Post by: ELA on January 25, 2018, 08:10:40 AM
First, this was a difficult case to examine from a medical / osteopathic standpoint. I believe Nassar is an osteopath meaning he had chiropractic training. And this was some sort of transvaginal adjustment he was using that is supported by literature. I think from what I previously read, anal penetration is the first method and vaginal penetration is the alternative method, and so here is the literature as insincere as the literature may be: Look here: Journal of the American Chiropractic Association, Feb. 2003 (https://www.coccyx.org/medabs/stclaire.htm) So Nassar can point to trade literature to support his treatments, and it is very difficult for nonmedical, and even medical people to attack his "treatments" since he has education and doctors who support him, and coaches and gymnastics people (I practice law, believe me, it does).

Second, what brought down the house of cards was when during the investigation the feds found child porn on his computer. Otherwise, he would have had doctors running to his defense, and a jury would have a difficult time with the case, although they might be conflicted on the home treatments, as those seemed more dubious than the office treatment
I think we are going to delve more deeply into this in civil court.  I have to imagine this is what MSU is going to say.  That when you line up 150 girls over 4 days, mixed with what they found on his computer, it seems like it should have been obvious.  But there were 14 actual reports made I think?  And some were to a softball assistant or a rowing trainer, etc.., so they didn't all go to the same person.  And it was based on a legitimate medical procedure.  So was any single person aware of more than a half dozen reports?  I don't know, that needs to be fleshed out.  But 150+ girls, and the stuff at his house, it's obvious, and that he was using that as an excuse, that there is no way that many needed that sort of treatment.  But if you are aware of 6-10 over the course of 20 years.  I can see how that would seem legitimate.  And it's not like he was some med student, or local quack.  He was the doctor for team USA.  If you weren't going to trust him as to the treatments chosen, who would you trust?  I'm not saying I necessarily buy any of this, simply that is HAS to be MSU's defense, so I'm sure we'll hear more about it

Fourth, I would feel horrible for the women/girls of State of Michigan if they took away the gymnastics program or their scholarships as it is punishing them for the sins of Larry Nassar. I feel as if the NCAA should force MSU to give more scholarships for women's gymnastics, or retroactively give scholarships to women who had less than a full ride and were adversely effected by Nassar, and pay off their student loans, or something more positive than ruining the program.
It's kind of a weird situation.  When it's football or basketball, we have no problem taking away scholarships, punishing the program, punishing the athletes and fans who weren't involved.  Now we get a female non-revenue sport, and it changes everything.  I'm not sure if there's some societal sexism there ("Poor innocent girls, we can't punish them"), in viewing them different from male athletes who had nothing to do with whatever scandal took place at their school.  I threw out the idea on the CFN board that gymnastics cost MSU money, and wasn't even any good, so relieving them of paying those scholarships for X many years on probation might not really be a penalty, and that maybe forcing them to fully fund scholarships for the entire gymnastics team for 5 years, or whatever, would actually be a penalty.  That idea got shot down because people thought it would give MSU an advantage in gymnastics.  So I don't know the answer.  Take away the whole PSU question of "is this an NCAA matter?" and it's still difficult because I don't think we've ever had a major scandal that has hit a non-revenue program like this.  You of course have the Twitter asshats, who are like "I don't like MSU, but I don't care about gymnastics, so you should give them basketball probation."  But in fairness, I'm sure some percentage of the MSU fanbase currently grandstanding is only doing so because they truly don't care what happens with the gymnastics program.  That it might be a tad different with football or basketball.

Seventh, ELA, I am sorry this happened at your university. I would hate for this to have happened at my alma mater. My sympathies to you, as well, and you have well-stated your frustration with this whole thing.

I think what is most disappointing from an alma mater sense is the reaction over the past week.  It's made me question everyone in charge from both a PR and a general human decency sense.  You get someone like Trustee Ferguson saying that we are more than "this Nassar thing," check out our sweet basketball arena.  How can anyone give a shit about the basketball arena right now?  And even if that's just who you are, how can you be dumb enough to say it?  I don't trust a damn person over there, because they are all seemingly too much of an ass or too stupid or both, to be in charge.  This was going to be news either way.  The victim impact statements made it more.  We are a messed up nation, and sex sells.  Even like this.  This news story is going to get clicks.  It would have cycled out of the mainstream in a week, you'd get an OTL in a week or two looking more into it, dragging out the old Appling/Payne story, discussing the 4 players kicked off the football team last summer for sexual assault, then that would cycle out too.  But it would all be based on rehashing old stories, or examining behaviors that occurred in the past.  They now gave them all the ammunition they needed to wonder why we should think anything has changed, and that maybe we can reevaluate how we felt about those past stories.  Fair or not to those involved there, MSU has put themselves in a position where I don't blame anyone for not trusting them.
Title: Re: OT - Nassar
Post by: Geolion91 on January 25, 2018, 08:14:48 AM

NCAA sent MSU a letter yesterday saying they were looking into it.  Just so happened to be a day after one of the braindead trustees went on the radio and basically laughed at the NCAA and siad if they didn't do anything about PSU, they aren't going to do anything here.
Didn't do anything?  Penn State lost 2 years of bowl eligibility, 20 scholarships a year for a couple years, then transitioning back to 85, and $60 million (which at least went to children's programs, so it was a good place for the money to go).
Title: Re: OT - Nassar
Post by: ELA on January 25, 2018, 08:17:35 AM
Didn't do anything?  Penn State lost 2 years of bowl eligibility, 20 scholarships a year for a couple years, then transitioning back to 85, and $60 million (which at least went to children's programs, so it was a good place for the money to go).
Only because Penn State let them.  The second Penn State changed their mind, the NCAA backed down in a heartbeat.

And I'm not saying they shouldn't have.  My position on that has been consistently that the NCAA could not have handled that worse.  Either say it's a criminal matter and stay out of it, or say it isn't, and impose your sanctions.  But to sanction them, then get scared in the face of a lawsuit, and instead of saying you were wrong, say after 2 years that everything is better and you are removing the sanctions was laughable.
Title: Re: OT - Nassar
Post by: Hawkinole on January 25, 2018, 10:07:32 AM

It's kind of a weird situation.  When it's football or basketball, we have no problem taking away scholarships, punishing the program, punishing the athletes and fans who weren't involved.  Now we get a female non-revenue sport, and it changes everything.  I'm not sure if there's some societal sexism there ("Poor innocent girls, we can't punish them"), in viewing them different from male athletes who had nothing to do with whatever scandal took place at their school.  I threw out the idea on the CFN board that gymnastics cost MSU money, and wasn't even any good, so relieving them of paying those scholarships for X many years on probation might not really be a penalty, and that maybe forcing them to fully fund scholarships for the entire gymnastics team for 5 years, or whatever, would actually be a penalty.  That idea got shot down because people thought it would give MSU an advantage in gymnastics.  So I don't know the answer.  Take away the whole PSU question of "is this an NCAA matter?" and it's still difficult because I don't think we've ever had a major scandal that has hit a non-revenue program like this.  You of course have the Twitter asshats, who are like "I don't like MSU, but I don't care about gymnastics, so you should give them basketball probation."  But in fairness, I'm sure some percentage of the MSU fanbase currently grandstanding is only doing so because they truly don't care what happens with the gymnastics program.  That it might be a tad different with football or basketball.

Additional scholarships would give MSU gymnastics a competitive advantage, but it seems to me sexual abuse is a competitive disadvantage. More scholarships or some other remunerative thing to make up for past abuses would seem appropriate. My guess is it happened a lot more than 150 times amongst all women and girls he "treated." I would guess there are some too embarrassed to come forward to discuss this type of physical abuse.
Although the literature recognizes what he was doing, as a legitimate procedure, I would not be surprised to find other literature challenging the legitimacy of this procedure, or discouraging its use except in intractable situations.
Title: Re: OT - Nassar
Post by: Reyd on January 25, 2018, 10:39:08 AM
It seems that MSU's defense is they did nothing wrong.

They did nothing, and that was wrong.
Title: Re: OT - Nassar
Post by: ELA on January 25, 2018, 10:54:32 AM
Additional scholarships would give MSU gymnastics a competitive advantage, but it seems to me sexual abuse is a competitive disadvantage. More scholarships or some other remunerative thing to make up for past abuses would seem appropriate. My guess is it happened a lot more than 150 times amongst all women and girls he "treated." I would guess there are some too embarrassed to come forward to discuss this type of physical abuse.
Although the literature recognizes what he was doing, as a legitimate procedure, I would not be surprised to find other literature challenging the legitimacy of this procedure, or discouraging its use except in intractable situations.
Oh absolutely.
As to the first, there's no doubt.  While he treated people through his capacities as MSU and USA doctor, I actually read very few of the victims who spoke were MSU students/athletes or USA gymnasts.  A lot saw him through MSU medical, but not through the university.  So who would they have reported to?  I'm sure many, many, many, many more of them stayed silent.
As for the procedure itself.  The judge mentioned she was anticipating a medical defense was forthcoming and he pled instead.  I'm assuming that's because after the images on the computer, the fact that he did it alone, and without gloves, made it impossible to argue that it was medical.  Plus you throw in how many cases there were.  No way.  As you said, I can't imagine anyone advocating it as a first choice.  But I do anticipate it being brought up as a defense for MSU, and that's where we will determine what they knew and how valid it was.  If only a half dozen of the 14 reports made it above the assistant coach or trainer or whoever was initially told.  6 cases in 20 years, seems far more believable.  And who exactly are they going to turn to with MORE expertise than the USA doctor.  Again, this isn't me, this is me speculating as to their defense.  The real issues come from 2014 on, when they opened their investigation, and didn't have good collaboration between departments, and then didn't have anyone enforcing that he always had to be doing this with someone else in the room.  2014 on, I don't see what they could plausibly argue.  It's 1997-2014 that I presume we'll see this defense.
I also wonder how much is going to come back on disgraced former Ingham County prosecutor Stuart Dunnings, who was in office from 1997 until 2016 until arrested for solicitation.  Even prior to his arrest he had a very weird reputation.  There were rumors about him for years, but the locals loved him because he was very harsh on MSU.  MSU fans liked to say it was because he was a third generation UM alum, I think it was just more because as a whole East Lansing/Lansing area residents and MSU students do not get along, and he knew his voting base.  But here IIRC he said in two different instances when MSU police brought him Nassar related cases, that there wasn't enough to pursue it further.  If you are looking for a story to keep this going, I imagine the jailed former prosecutor who ignored MSU police will probably get hit at some point.
Title: Re: OT - Nassar
Post by: Hawkinole on January 25, 2018, 11:24:20 AM
There does tend to be a piling on effect as to disgraced people. But to your point, who do you go to, higher up than the USA Gymnastics doctor for opinion on the legitimacy of a treatment given to athletes? I don't think the local prosecuting attorney can be easily faulted, he would have to have an expert witness whose opinion is not just more sound by a preponderance of the evidence, than Nassar's, but more sound beyond a reasonable doubt. It is Nassar's computer and his repetitive abuse that brought this out. Otherwise he'd still be in the business of "Larry being Larry." And county prosecution budgets will not ordinarily be spent on speculative adventures. I think he'd need institutional help from elsewhere.

What seems so obvious after the fact is never as obvious as it seems at the time.

MSU and USA Gymnastics were in the best position to investigate and find the correct answer. In this case it was the journalism that led to more questions being asked. MSU and USA Gymnastics are institutions with funding. They had a duty of care to young girls and women making complaints of sexual abuse. You cannot expect victims to expend $10,000 or $20,000 or more on attorneys and expert opinions to determine, "Did this constitute abuse of your daughter?" A 20-year old  broke college student could not be expected to get an expert opinion to pursue this without the support of an institution that owes her a duty of care and help. The institutional support was lacking. An investigation will ultimately show why it was lacking . . . perhaps fear of denigrating a colleague, or fear of institutional embarrassment. We'll see what they find.
Title: Re: OT - Nassar
Post by: ELA on January 25, 2018, 12:16:40 PM
There does tend to be a piling on effect as to disgraced people. But to your point, who do you go to, higher up than the USA Gymnastics doctor for opinion on the legitimacy of a treatment given to athletes? I don't think the local prosecuting attorney can be easily faulted, he would have to have an expert witness whose opinion is not just more sound by a preponderance of the evidence, than Nassar's, but more sound beyond a reasonable doubt. It is Nassar's computer and his repetitive abuse that brought this out. Otherwise he'd still be in the business of "Larry being Larry." And county prosecution budgets will not ordinarily be spent on speculative adventures. I think he'd need institutional help from elsewhere.

What seems so obvious after the fact is never as obvious as it seems at the time.

MSU and USA Gymnastics were in the best position to investigate and find the correct answer. In this case it was the journalism that led to more questions being asked. MSU and USA Gymnastics are institutions with funding. They had a duty of care to young girls and women making complaints of sexual abuse. You cannot expect victims to expend $10,000 or $20,000 or more on attorneys and expert opinions to determine, "Did this constitute abuse of your daughter?" A 20-year old  broke college student could not be expected to get an expert opinion to pursue this without the support of an institution that owes her a duty of care and help. The institutional support was lacking. An investigation will ultimately show why it was lacking . . . perhaps fear of denigrating a colleague, or fear of institutional embarrassment. We'll see what they find.
I meant more in the court of public opinion.  "Disgraced, jailed, former DA ignored MSU Police's request to investigate" seems like a forthcoming headline.
As to everything you said, I agree.
Title: Re: OT - Nassar
Post by: Geolion91 on January 25, 2018, 12:31:12 PM
Only because Penn State let them.  The second Penn State changed their mind, the NCAA backed down in a heartbeat.

And I'm not saying they shouldn't have.  My position on that has been consistently that the NCAA could not have handled that worse.  Either say it's a criminal matter and stay out of it, or say it isn't, and impose your sanctions.  But to sanction them, then get scared in the face of a lawsuit, and instead of saying you were wrong, say after 2 years that everything is better and you are removing the sanctions was laughable.
Absolutely agree.  The Board of Trustees stuck their collective tail between their legs.  I wasn't disagreeing with you, but the reference to the MSU trustee.
Title: Re: OT - Nassar
Post by: ELA on January 25, 2018, 02:12:36 PM
Absolutely agree.  The Board of Trustees stuck their collective tail between their legs.  I wasn't disagreeing with you, but the reference to the MSU trustee.
And the other problem in the NCAA doing it this way is maybe the end result is fine...if this never happens again.  Cool, we rolled back the penalties without having to actually admit we were wrong.  Except now it happened again.  And the NCAA never admitted to overstepping its bounds.  So now it has to either do something or be accused of a double standard.  Like I said, I think their way out is that it was gymnastics, and I doubt they'll get a ton of backlash.  They can impose a fine on the school, and penalize gymnastics.  Then it would be in line with the PSU initial punishment of fining the school, but only punishing the sport responsible on the field.  Again, the problem is maybe they dodge another bullet...until this happens again (and it will) with a football or basketball program.
Title: Re: OT - Nassar
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on January 25, 2018, 02:19:15 PM
This whole thing is just unreal.  

I think most people will want to vilify the various administrators and prosecutors involved but, for the reasons given by some of our lawyers above I can understand why charges were not brought.  Where would a local prosecutor go to find a doctor with more authority than the team Doc for the USA Gymnastics team?  That would be a tough nut to crack.  

When you look at everything in combination:
Obviously when you are looking at all of this together the case against him is pretty easy.  The problem is that nobody was looking at all of this together until recently.  

I agree with the comments in this thread.  MSU's mishandling of the PR on this is astounding.  
Title: Re: OT - Nassar
Post by: MarqHusker on January 25, 2018, 04:30:16 PM
Not to sidetrack this, but I'd like to underscore Hawkinole's comments on the Judge.  Her sentencing was quite....unusual.   I've read a few very negative takes on her handling of the allocution, particularly her rather self indulgent remarks.  I sure hope it doesn't lead to an appellate issue.
Title: Re: OT - Nassar
Post by: 847badgerfan on January 25, 2018, 04:39:53 PM
Only because Penn State let them.  The second Penn State changed their mind, the NCAA backed down in a heartbeat.

And I'm not saying they shouldn't have.  My position on that has been consistently that the NCAA could not have handled that worse.  Either say it's a criminal matter and stay out of it, or say it isn't, and impose your sanctions.  But to sanction them, then get scared in the face of a lawsuit, and instead of saying you were wrong, say after 2 years that everything is better and you are removing the sanctions was laughable.
This. The PSU brass knew their goose was going to be cooked so they took the path of least resistance and sacrificed an entire program to try and save themselves. That's how it looks from here anyway.

MF'ers need to be tarred and feathered.
Title: Re: OT - Nassar
Post by: 847badgerfan on January 25, 2018, 04:42:02 PM
Not to sidetrack this, but I'd like to underscore Hawkinole's comments on the Judge.  Her sentencing was quite....unusual.   I've read a few very negative takes on her handling of the allocution, particularly her rather self indulgent remarks.  I sure hope it doesn't lead to an appellate issue.
I felt like I was watching a movie - wondering if that judge was a paid actor or an actual judge. It was weird. Very weird.

"I just signed your death warrant."

Really?? That does not seem "judgely" to me.
Title: Re: OT - Nassar
Post by: PSUinNC on January 25, 2018, 04:51:18 PM
And the other problem in the NCAA doing it this way is maybe the end result is fine...if this never happens again.  Cool, we rolled back the penalties without having to actually admit we were wrong.  Except now it happened again.  And the NCAA never admitted to overstepping its bounds.  So now it has to either do something or be accused of a double standard.  Like I said, I think their way out is that it was gymnastics, and I doubt they'll get a ton of backlash.  They can impose a fine on the school, and penalize gymnastics.  Then it would be in line with the PSU initial punishment of fining the school, but only punishing the sport responsible on the field.  Again, the problem is maybe they dodge another bullet...until this happens again (and it will) with a football or basketball program.
I believe the situations greatly differ b/c of the publicity involved in them. 
The minute Sandusky was arrested, the media swooped in and made a HUGE deal of this.  The four-letter basically set up a State College satellite office, the PSU logo was over Brian Williams' shoulder to start the nightly news EVERY night for 2-3 weeks.  It involved St. Joe of State College, his Camelot, and it was "juicy" (by media standards) to see it crumble.  The NCAA IMMEDIATELY got involved and put the pressure on PSU.  We'll never really know what the likes of Ed Ray and the NCAA brash were threatening to Penn State at the time, the DP to a massive revenue generator for the school was completely on the table.  I'll agree - Penn State's leadership tucked tail, but given the circumstances and the intense public outcry who knows what else may have happened had they not in that immediacy.  
Fast forward to 2016 when this all came out at first - we had the most ludicrous election in our country's modern history and ever since we've had a media that's focused on one thing and one thing only - TRUMP.  This was maybe a blip on the radar until what, a month or two ago?  Even at that time, this hasn't been topic #1 on mainstream media for even a few weeks now, and frankly only in the last 2 weeks when all of these girls had the incredible courage to MAKE it a story and bring the necessary attention to it.  THEY are the ones forcing it and making the media take notice of this, while the media worries about what porn star Trump had sex with in 1991.  That's the shame in all of this.  Point blank - this story wasn't click-bait enough for mainstream media until about 2 weeks ago.  It 'only' involved gymnastics and some doctor no one ever heard about.  God Bless those courageous young women for what they did the past two weeks.  
My point to this is mainly directed at the media and the coverage; that's why the NCAA hasn't gotten too involved.  They don't want to deal with this again and it wasn't at the forefront of every damn news outlet every damn night like PSU was in 2011/2012.  But now may not have any choice to get involved b/c of what was previously said regarding a double standard if they don't.  Once again, the NCAA will massively screw this up.  
I don't want to see a great institution like Michigan St. battered like Penn St was; it wasn't fair then it isn't fair now.  The ones in charge, that's another story.  The ones in charge at Penn State paid and are paying the price (Paterno would be included if he was still alive).  The same thing should happen to anyone at MSU and USAG as well.  
To hell with the media in our country and the fact they seem to think they can control the narrative anymore.  
Title: Re: OT - Nassar
Post by: 847badgerfan on January 25, 2018, 04:55:53 PM
To hell with the media in our country and the fact they seem to think they can control the narrative anymore.  

So.. This could be a whole separate topic by itself, but it would probably have to end up on the board on the "south" side of this site that is not moderated.

Heh.
Title: Re: OT - Nassar
Post by: SFBadger96 on January 25, 2018, 05:27:56 PM
Not to sidetrack this, but I'd like to underscore Hawkinole's comments on the Judge.  Her sentencing was quite....unusual.   I've read a few very negative takes on her handling of the allocution, particularly her rather self indulgent remarks.  I sure hope it doesn't lead to an appellate issue.
I don't know how much discretion trial judges get in Michigan, but if I were the defense attorney I would sure be looking at an appeal challenging her partiality and asking for a new sentencing hearing with a new judge. That was my immediate reaction to her  comments about the 8th amendment.  Just a little judicial restraint would have gone a long way.


As for the media...one of the reasons we're all here is that we don't really buy into the media's narratives. Nonetheless, we shouldn't forget that it was the media that finally got the ball rolling against Nassar.
Title: Re: OT - Nassar
Post by: ELA on January 25, 2018, 05:51:51 PM
I don't know how much discretion trial judges get in Michigan, but if I were the defense attorney I would sure be looking at an appeal challenging her partiality and asking for a new sentencing hearing with a new judge. That was my immediate reaction to her  comments about the 8th amendment.  Just a little judicial restraint would have gone a long way.


As for the media...one of the reasons we're all here is that we don't really buy into the media's narratives. Nonetheless, we shouldn't forget that it was the media that finally got the ball rolling against Nassar.
Investigative journalism is still pretty good, but the news industry is in such a bad way, and it simply doesn't sell nearly enough to be worth the cost of those types of pieces.  Hell, I bet they got more clicks with a headline stating "I've just signed your death sentence," than they did for the initial investigative piece in the Indy Star.
I recall while watching Spotlight (which is one of the best movies I've seen the past couple years) how there is no way that could have happened today.  To have that many people, and that many resources committed to a story for months before anything got printed.  The had an uphill battle then, and now it would be downright impossible.  Can't blame the decision makers either when sensationalist news sells more, and all the time and resources they put into other stuff is free everywhere within minutes.
Title: Re: OT - Nassar
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on January 25, 2018, 07:07:29 PM
Investigative journalism is still pretty good, but the news industry is in such a bad way, and it simply doesn't sell nearly enough to be worth the cost of those types of pieces.  Hell, I bet they got more clicks with a headline stating "I've just signed your death sentence," than they did for the initial investigative piece in the Indy Star.
I recall while watching Spotlight (which is one of the best movies I've seen the past couple years) how there is no way that could have happened today.  To have that many people, and that many resources committed to a story for months before anything got printed.  The had an uphill battle then, and now it would be downright impossible.  Can't blame the decision makers either when sensationalist news sells more, and all the time and resources they put into other stuff is free everywhere within minutes.
It's one of the reasons I got out of blogging. One of the other writers at the site would through out some 300 word piece of political fluff and get a bunch of hits and comments. I'd put together a well thought out and researched 2000 word article and crickets. 
People just don't have the attention span any more.
Title: Re: OT - Nassar
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on January 25, 2018, 10:36:57 PM
I'm not sure if it was hard luck or poetic Justice that he wound up with a spikey feminist as a judge. 

Both, perhaps?
Title: Re: OT - Nassar
Post by: Hawkinole on January 26, 2018, 12:00:37 AM
I felt like I was watching a movie - wondering if that judge was a paid actor or an actual judge. It was weird. Very weird.

"I just signed your death warrant."

Really?? That does not seem "judgely" to me.
He should probably get a new judge on a re-sentencing hearing. Can you imagine the double down the media would have on re-sentencing, even if the prosecution were allowed only to call the 7 victims for whom there were convictions rather than the gauntlet of 156, I think I read about today?
The likelihood "Larry" survives beyond his federal sentence to serve any part of his state sentence is low. But process matters. 
It would be interesting to see the past reviews this judge received from attorneys who practice in front of her. Do any of the Michigan residents here have a link? The Iowa State Bar Association has judicial pleblescites with attorneys surveyed ranking the judges in about 8 or so categories for their competence.
I don't want a system that makes it more important to splash headlines, or put the trial judges in a position where they are television producers. Just do your jobs and fairly and judiciously dispense justice.
If your goal is to go into television, apply there. Don't do it on a state court or federal court bench. That's not your job.
Title: Re: OT - Nassar
Post by: GopherRock on January 26, 2018, 12:11:20 AM
^Both.

I get where the attorneys on here are coming from. I’ve seen defense counsel say some highly unsavory stuff when defending their client. And could the judge have taken a little bit off of her rant? Sure. But I’m also looking at the guy sitting in the dock that pled guilty to all of these crimes, and can’t dredge up so much as an ounce of sympathy.

Is it safe to say that all of this wouldn’t have seen the light of day had the judge done a straightforward sentencing sans victim statements? The terms of his plea deal called for these proceedings from any victims. MSU, USAG, the NCAA, the USOC, et al. seemed ready and willing to treat him like a spy who got caught and totally disavow him. But a week of very public testimony, including multiple Olympic medalists ripping the entire system, and things took on a life of their own. It’s not a stretch to think that nothing happens without the week of catharsis.

None of the resignations at MSU below President should have been accepted. They needed to be fired for cause.

No heads roll if the laundry isn’t very publicly aired.

Speaking of which, the USOC ordered the entire governing staff of USAG to quit by the end of February or they’ll be decertified. A little bit late but better than nothing.
Title: Re: OT - Nassar
Post by: Hawkinole on January 26, 2018, 12:37:40 AM
I have not seen the agreement between prosecution and defense for victim statements. The media reports it was to allow victim impact statements. But, at least in this state, that means from the victims of the crime for which the defendant is convicted.

That doesn't mean everyone from your kindergarten teacher to your crossing guard to everyone you treated in professional practice. And if that agreement was that broad, then the defense counsel were incompetent. But you saw where the defendant sat in the witness box while victims stood at a podium and television cameras were there to view the judge and defendant. That is staged. Court proceedings are not for voyeurs. They are for dispensing justice.
Title: Re: OT - Nassar
Post by: ELA on January 26, 2018, 10:56:54 AM
Sounds like AD Mark Hollis is tendering his resignation today.

That is a CRUSHING blow to athletics, he has been amazing.

But if he's culpable, he's gotta go.
Title: Re: OT - Nassar
Post by: 847badgerfan on January 26, 2018, 11:21:56 AM
Sounds like AD Mark Hollis is tendering his resignation today.

That is a CRUSHING blow to athletics, he has been amazing.

But if he's culpable, he's gotta go.
Is Izzo taking heat for his comments too? I can't believe he said what he did.

Losing Hollis is very bad. I'm sorry for you ELA. I can't imagine how I'd feel if this was my school.
Title: Re: OT - Nassar
Post by: ELA on January 26, 2018, 11:59:38 AM
Is Izzo taking heat for his comments too? I can't believe he said what he did.

Losing Hollis is very bad. I'm sorry for you ELA. I can't imagine how I'd feel if this was my school.
Some heat?  I think a little.  I think it was pretty obvious it came out wrong.  I think everyone knew WHO did it, he meant he hopes everyone involved gets caught, and clarified the same.  It seems clear at this point they are.
Title: Re: OT - Nassar
Post by: 847badgerfan on January 26, 2018, 12:02:45 PM
OK, that's good.

Of course there is no headline on the clarifications. Only the headline from the girl's mother's twitter.
Title: Re: OT - Nassar
Post by: ELA on January 26, 2018, 12:09:50 PM
We were discussing the medical defense he used earlier.  Seems like that's what stopped the 2014 investigation, and what his 2016 accuser came prepared for.  She can't get enough credit

https://www.lansingstatejournal.com/story/news/local/2018/01/26/larry-nassar-michigan-state-investigation/1064914001/

The troubling thing is, if this was some random doctor accused of doing this, and it went to trial, Nassar would probably be about as good an expert witness as you could get on the matter.  As mentioned earlier, who the hell was going to challenge him on best practices?
Title: Re: OT - Nassar
Post by: ELA on January 26, 2018, 12:15:40 PM
Some snips from his retirement PC.  Seems like the first guy who actually gets it.  Which also means he also gets why he has to go, no matter what he knew

Hollis: "Michigan State is a great institution. And its greatest strength is the people who call themselves Spartans." Says "my heart breaks" hearing what Nassar victims said.

Mark Hollis: "Our campus and beyond has been attacked by evil."

Hollis: "We must listen and learn lessons. Only then can we truly begin the process of healing."

ollis: "I've always been a Spartan, and I always will be. It's been an absolute honor to guide the athletic dept for a decade."

Mark Hollis: "I'm not running away from anything, I'm running towards something."

Mark Hollis: "Let me be clear, that in retirement, I will cooperate with these and any investigations."

Hollis on Nassar: I did not know about this prior to the Sept. 2016 article. I was not informed of 2014 investigation.

Hollis: I was not asked or pressured to resign

Mark Hollis: "Many people told me that I should not (retire). I know this is the right time."

Hollis: "I know it's the right time to let people heal. I know this is the right time for me, for (wife) Nancy. I have three children, they're incredible kids. I don't like to see them in pain, either."

Hollis reiterates that he doesn't believe he ever met Larry Nassar. That's consistent with what he told police.

Hollis asked why he does not stay on as athletic director. "Because I care."

Hollis says he hopes his retirement helps healing process. Presser is over. He hugs his wife on the way out the door.

Title: Re: OT - Nassar
Post by: MaximumSam on January 26, 2018, 12:23:54 PM
I'm still not sure what to think about this on MSU's end.  It sounds like police and whatnot were informed and investigated.  They chose not to file charges.  That is wholly different than not notifying anyone (re: PSU).  I'm not sure how hard I can hammer administration for basically following proper channels and getting the wrong result.  Maybe I'm missing something.
Title: Re: OT - Nassar
Post by: SFBadger96 on January 26, 2018, 12:26:53 PM
Proof that Hollis was good: true leaders take responsibility for things that happen under them, even if they weren't involved.
Title: Re: OT - Nassar
Post by: ELA on January 26, 2018, 12:30:59 PM
Proof that Hollis was good: true leaders take responsibility for things that happen under them, even if they weren't involved.
Agreed.  The problem is he more and more seems like the only person aware enough (woke enough as the kids say) that I'd trust to guide MSU through the next steps, which means he was the only one aware enough to step down.  Now this whole ship is driven by the ego-maniacal BOT who are too far up their own asses to step down, and are only going to make matters worse.  I sort of wish he had announced his retirement effective 6 months or a year or something.  Maybe the optics there are still bad?  I don't know, but it seems like him stepping aside isn't going to help with the investigation.  Oh well.
I was going to go into a coaching thing, but that belongs in the offseason thread.  I don't want this to take a left turn into on the field stuff, which really isn't important here.
Title: Re: OT - Nassar
Post by: ELA on January 26, 2018, 02:10:30 PM
The ESPN report today is not good.  The basketball one they dug up from 7 years ago is old news, and there's a reason ESPN had refused to run it until now.  So between that and some personal knowledge of the incident, that one doesn't get much credit.

But the football stuff that wasn't known about until now.  That's no good.  Dantonio was applauded last summer for immediate dismissal of four players.  But this outlines 5 previous violent incidents that were not known about.  ESPN does note that in all cases they went to EL or MSU PD, and that in none of the cases were charges ever filed.  They even note that there was no proof any of that news ever made it to the coach.  That what needs to be investigated, did he know?  That's where the investigation better turn.  Did he know?  If not, why?  Why were there no charges filed?  Was there nothing there, or was local PD pressuring women into not pressing charges?  This is nowhere near being over.
Title: Re: OT - Nassar
Post by: PSUinNC on January 26, 2018, 02:11:38 PM
The four letter's involved now....

http://www.espn.com/espn/story/_/id/22214566/pattern-denial-inaction-information-suppression-michigan-state-goes-larry-nassar-case-espn

Title: Re: OT - Nassar
Post by: PSUinNC on January 26, 2018, 02:12:41 PM
The four letter's involved now....

http://www.espn.com/espn/story/_/id/22214566/pattern-denial-inaction-information-suppression-michigan-state-goes-larry-nassar-case-espn


Sorry ELA, I think you posted literally seconds before I did.
Title: Re: OT - Nassar
Post by: PSUinNC on January 26, 2018, 02:39:45 PM
The ESPN report today is not good.  The basketball one they dug up from 7 years ago is old news, and there's a reason ESPN had refused to run it until now.  So between that and some personal knowledge of the incident, that one doesn't get much credit.

But the football stuff that wasn't known about until now.  That's no good.  Dantonio was applauded last summer for immediate dismissal of four players.  But this outlines 5 previous violent incidents that were not known about.  ESPN does note that in all cases they went to EL or MSU PD, and that in none of the cases were charges ever filed.  They even note that there was no proof any of that news ever made it to the coach.  That what needs to be investigated, did he know?  That's where the investigation better turn.  Did he know?  If not, why?  Why were there no charges filed?  Was there nothing there, or was local PD pressuring women into not pressing charges?  This is nowhere near being over.
State College and PSU police both knew about Sandusky.  Hell, the DA investigated him.  And about the coaches, isn't the the whole crux of the Paterno involvement - how didn't he know??  Using this in MSU's defense won't get them very far, I'm afraid.  
Wow this is starting to get so very vividly and unfortunate mirror the deal with Sandusky....
Title: Re: OT - Nassar
Post by: ELA on January 26, 2018, 02:52:22 PM
State College and PSU police both knew about Sandusky.  Hell, the DA investigated him.  And about the coaches, isn't the the whole crux of the Paterno involvement - how didn't he know??  Using this in MSU's defense won't get them very far, I'm afraid.  
Wow this is starting to get so very vividly and unfortunate mirror the deal with Sandusky....
I thought the crux was that he definitely knew, and that he only reported it to his superiors, and didn't follow up with police when nothing happened?  I could be misremembering.
To me, what is most troubling is how bad it is campus wide.  They studied 150 cases and found TWENTY PERCENT were grossly mishandled?  It takes it becoming a sports story for anyone to care (apparently both within MSU and at large) but that is absolutely unacceptable from a campus wide standpoint.
Title: Re: OT - Nassar
Post by: ELA on January 26, 2018, 03:00:29 PM
Sort of stream of consciousness is that whether the coaches knew, it seems clear that athletes went through a different process than regular students.  I can't imagine they didn't know that.  And there's no way that's anything bad awful.

Taking back my thought about Hollis, good riddance.

I also, upon re-read noticed that while the complainant asked in all 6 cases not to press charges, that they had to report it to MSU (I'm assuming to Title IX?).  Now that is confidential, so that doesn't mean anyone would know.  But I think it's important to know if that was followed or not.  If not...all six times.  That suggests something more nefarious to me too.  In the end, even if Izzo/Dantonio didn't know, or acted appropriately in the case they did, it seems like MSU went to a lot of trouble to make sure they wouldn't know, give them plausible deniability.
Title: Re: OT - Nassar
Post by: CatsbyAZ on January 26, 2018, 04:16:10 PM

Fourth, I would feel horrible for the women/girls of State of Michigan if they took away the gymnastics program or their scholarships as it is punishing them for the sins of Larry Nassar. I feel as if the NCAA should force MSU to give more scholarships for women's gymnastics, or retroactively give scholarships to women who had less than a full ride and were adversely effected by Nassar, and pay off their student loans, or something more positive than ruining the program.
Disagree. It is worth scrapping the whole gymnastics program. There is zero sense in feeling sorry for the current gymnasts in context of the bigger picture. For the current athletes this isn't even as bad as your typical job layoff. In similar situations where current athletes absorb collateral damage the NCAA allows the scholarship to stand and the student to transfer without the one year waiting period. Or grandfather out the program if the current athletes are that big of a sentimental deal.
Title: Re: OT - Nassar
Post by: SFBadger96 on January 26, 2018, 05:26:18 PM
Although I, too, wonder about how the judge conducted herself, it is worth reading this and contemplating how it all fits together:

https://www.cnn.com/2018/01/24/us/rachael-denhollander-full-statement/index.html
Title: Re: OT - Nassar
Post by: Hawkinole on January 26, 2018, 07:04:53 PM
Rachael Denhollander is really the hero here. She appears to be very intelligent. She anticipated there were other victim complainants whose complaints must have been given short shrift. She thought this through about as completely as one could think it. Denhollander brought with her literature that contravenes the literature she anticipated Larry Nassar must be  relying upon to defend himself.

She had her medical records, her old journals prepared a decade earlier regarding her experience and her feelings in the aftermath. Denhollander was prepared to show her medical records did not contain evidence of penetration and that Nassar was concealing from his records what he did to her.

The Olympians who were abused but whose complaints to USA Gymnastics were ignored have this non-Olympian's "Olympic" effort to thank for bringing this to the attention to law enforcement and prosecutors. She thought like a lawyer, and survivor.

She alone -- well working with others -- but without her it wouldn't have stopped -- likely saved 100s of women and juvenile females from sexual abuse.

This is a worthwhile read:


https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation-now/2018/01/26/larry-nassar-michigan-state-university-investigation/1069151001/
Title: Re: OT - Nassar
Post by: Hawkinole on January 26, 2018, 07:26:44 PM
If you are a coach, or administrator at MSU, and you had knowledge (even if only 2nd-hand) of abuse involving Nassar, or knowledge of other abuses of women or girls remotely tied to the athletic department, the aura of uncertainty must be palpable.

A resignation could help make it more difficult for investigators at MSU to unearth persons having second hand knowledge. Well-Timed retirements or resignations may salvage reputations. I would guess there could be others still searching their consciences about what to do relative to their professional life.

I have a bad feeling the aftermath will be lengthy, and brutal, and almost as highly publicized as this week's sentencing proceedings. We will see.
Title: Re: OT - Nassar
Post by: MaximumSam on January 26, 2018, 08:23:10 PM
Not wildly impressed by the OTL report.  Again, when the police conclude there was no criminal activity, it is very difficult for non police people to react in a satisfactory way.  You can either just conclude the opposite and treat everyone as guilty, you can toss it under the rug, you can make people run sprints.  

Honestly, I'm thinking the criticism here is less about process and more about just being upset that Nassar got away with it for so long.  But he was investigated repeatedly and authorities kept concluding he was not sexually abusing people until they found a bunch of child porn.  I'm sure digging deep enough will uncover enough to fault somebody for something, but as an overall process I'm not convinced there were major problems.
Title: Re: OT - Nassar
Post by: 847badgerfan on January 26, 2018, 08:32:42 PM
One of two things needs to happen here for MSU.

First, I'm going to completely dismiss the EfuPN garbage. They are just garbage, just above (maybe) TMZ.

Now...

Either Dantonio or Izzo needs to step up and go the Alvarez route. Be the AD and still coach, while grooming the next coach. That to me is the only way MSU athletics continues to thrive.

And yeah, get rid of gymnastics.

All the "old man coach hugging young girl stuff" has always creeped me out anyway.

Bye.
Title: Re: OT - Nassar
Post by: 847badgerfan on January 26, 2018, 08:51:51 PM
By the way... Sometimes I feel like I need to get my law degree to continue to post here.

I took some law (one class) in my last semester of engineering at UW (got admitted to the law school, needed an elective) but I didn't like to read. That was HARD on me.

I think I might have the patience to read now. Maybe I'll do it when I'm out of my company in 4 years. I'll need something to do anyway, and then I could keep up here.
Title: Re: OT - Nassar
Post by: mcwterps1 on January 26, 2018, 08:56:46 PM
It's all okay though. 

All you have to do is say, "fake news", and it's fine. 

Deny it fully, and forget it ever happened. 

I personally don't believe Dantonio is in any wrong, just mirroring the sadness of today's climate. 
Title: Re: OT - Nassar
Post by: 847badgerfan on January 26, 2018, 09:14:18 PM
Ummm...
Title: Re: OT - Nassar
Post by: CatsbyAZ on January 26, 2018, 10:23:43 PM
I personally don't believe Dantonio is in any wrong, just mirroring the sadness of today's climate.
I also don't think the heat Dantonio is taking is entirely fair either. ESPN is just using the heat of the moment to pile on and get clicks.
They have this big expose lambasting Dantonio (and Izzo) for ignoring sexual assaults. The problem is two-fold:
1) Crimes of rape and sexual assault always play out in the gray area of he-said, she-said. Both coaches don't have the time to become their program's defense attorneys on such subjective cases.
2) ESPN's expose works hard to establish MSU as some sort of hotbed for these crimes, while outside of the Nassar stuff, do they take any time to look at whether these same type of cases come about as evenly in the money sports of any other program? There's probably plenty of Athletic departments where the football coach cracks down while the basketball coach doesn't, and vice versa.
But all in all, dump the gymnastics program.
Title: Re: OT - Nassar
Post by: Hawkinole on January 27, 2018, 12:16:07 AM
This editorial from Rachael Denhollander is a worthwhile read. My previous post implies she took a lawyer-like approach to coming forward. Voila, she is a lawyer.

I don't agree with all of what she says but she makes some good observations. I am not one to grant special statutes of limitations. The limitations periods serve a purpose.

I once heard someone claim she now remembered she was sexually abused as a 2-year old after seeing a counselor. There really is a purpose to statutes of limitations cutting off stale claims. We have extended statutes of sexual abuse already in many cases, and I don't think we should give one class of personal injury claimants one statute, and another statute for those injured by a physician who did something that you discover 10-years later caused a severe problem.
Title: Re: OT - Nassar
Post by: Honestbuckeye on January 27, 2018, 07:35:43 AM
It's all okay though.

All you have to do is say, "fake news", and it's fine.

Deny it fully, and forget it ever happened.

I personally don't believe Dantonio is in any wrong, just mirroring the sadness of today's climate.
Today’s climate being sad...at least you got that right.  
Seems like all you have to do today is claim “sources” and you can say anything or accuse someone of anything, and never be held accountable because all of the negative attention is on the accused, in today’s mob media mentality.   
Title: Re: OT - Nassar
Post by: 847badgerfan on January 27, 2018, 09:26:09 AM
95 percent of the "news" today is fake.
Title: Re: OT - Nassar
Post by: FearlessF on January 27, 2018, 09:45:50 AM

They have this big expose lambasting Dantonio (and Izzo) for ignoring sexual assaults. The problem is two-fold:
1) Crimes of rape and sexual assault always play out in the gray area of he-said, she-said. Both coaches don't have the time to become their program's defense attorneys on such subjective cases.
time is only one reason coaches shouldn't be in charge of criminal activity
turn it over to the proper authorities immediately
Title: Re: OT - Nassar
Post by: Honestbuckeye on January 27, 2018, 10:09:54 AM
The feaux outrage at Dantonio and Izzo, is disgusting. 

Go to a UM fan board- they want blood.  Do you think it is for the reason they claim?  Hell no, those two coaches are simply high value targets in their personal war that is fandom/rivalry. 

Were any of those guys calling for the head coach for basketball or gymnastics at PSU when that was all going down?  Of course not, and I rest my case.  
Title: Re: OT - Nassar
Post by: SuperMario on January 27, 2018, 10:20:23 AM
Although I, too, wonder about how the judge conducted herself, it is worth reading this and contemplating how it all fits together:

https://www.cnn.com/2018/01/24/us/rachael-denhollander-full-statement/index.html
This was a worthwhile read. Having a young daughter myself, it’s very sad to feel the pain in her words. What she experienced seems to have crept into and changed so many areas of her life, most notably trusting people.
I simply cannot comprehend the failure to protect children.
Title: Re: OT - Nassar
Post by: LittlePig on January 27, 2018, 11:45:56 AM
Based on the OTL report, there appears to be a culture of cover-up and lack of transperency in MSU atheltics.  MSU needs to clean house to change the culture and that could mean both possibly Dantonio and Izzo must go
Title: Re: OT - Nassar
Post by: iahawk15 on January 27, 2018, 12:41:57 PM
Based on the OTL report, there appears to be a culture of cover-up and lack of transperency in MSU atheltics.  MSU needs to clean house to change the culture and that could mean both possibly Dantonio and Izzo must go
Key phrase bolded, and that's not nearly enough for me.
Title: Re: OT - Nassar
Post by: OrangeAfroMan on January 27, 2018, 12:58:27 PM
95 percent of the "news" today is fake.
Fake stat.
Title: Re: OT - Nassar
Post by: OrangeAfroMan on January 27, 2018, 12:59:47 PM
What comes to my mind during these horrible stories is the CERTAINTY that there are dozens (if not hundreds) of other Nassars out there.  Smaller profile, smaller school monsters doing this, getting away with it, and never coming to justice.
Title: Re: OT - Nassar
Post by: LittlePig on January 27, 2018, 01:35:43 PM
Key phrase bolded, and that's not nearly enough for me.
Fair enough.  We will wait to see what other information will come out.  But sometimes once the dominos start to fall, its hard to know where it all stops.
Title: Re: OT - Nassar
Post by: Entropy on January 27, 2018, 02:05:18 PM
One of the issues is the NCAA and colleges have yet to collectively decide the balance between an individuals rights of innocence until proven guilty and the perception of winning at all costs.      I'd guess there are wide variations in the quality of processes and policies to deal with sexual assaults accusations.   Hopefully, if the lesson hasn't been learned yet, schools exclude coaches from the review process.   And boards begin to take this issues more seriously as well.
Title: Re: OT - Nassar
Post by: mcwterps1 on January 27, 2018, 02:08:12 PM
95 percent of the "news" today is fake.
That's only what dictators say. 
Title: Re: OT - Nassar
Post by: 847badgerfan on January 27, 2018, 02:20:47 PM
Fake stat.
Bullshit.

Anyone with a computer is a "journalist" now, and 95 percent of them have an agenda.
Title: Re: OT - Nassar
Post by: HailHailMSP on January 27, 2018, 02:21:39 PM
The feaux outrage at Dantonio and Izzo, is disgusting.

Go to a UM fan board- they want blood.  Do you think it is for the reason they claim?  Hell no, those two coaches are simply high value targets in their personal war that is fandom/rivalry.

Were any of those guys calling for the head coach for basketball or gymnastics at PSU when that was all going down?  Of course not, and I rest my case.  
That’s a broad sweeping generalization against a fan base. I’m a Michigan fan, and I want done what is right. Most alumni from Michigan I have talked to have stated the same, that goes for Spartans I know too. ESPN has its flaws, but it also looks very bad to take the news source and immediately scream fake news.
I’m not calling for resignations or terminations yet, but the onion should be peeled back on this. If, and it’s a big if, the Travis Walton stuff is true, this looks very bad for Izzo. It also looks pretty terrible that the prosecuting attorney that chose not to pursue charges against Appling and Payne was hired a short while later by MSU as a Title IX employee. And as a coach you take responsibility for bringing someone like Auston Robertson to campus, given his history. When he committed a disgusting act I didn’t see anyone stepping out to apologize or take accountability.
I say this not as a fan, but as a father. I was disgusted with details on Brendan Gibbons for “my” school. More recently I was dismayed with how MN has handled Reggie Lynch as well, as a passive hometown fan. Stand up and take accountability as an adult and a coach and a father. I’m troubled that in many cases this hasn’t happened, including possibly with Dantonio and Izzo. It shouldn’t be too much to ask of program leaders making millions a year. It’s sad. It’s not being out for blood with a frivolous sports rivalry. A low rent reaction from a handful of basement message board and tweeter types may be disgusting, but Nassar and adults not taking accountability is afar more disgusting.
Title: Re: OT - Nassar
Post by: SuperMario on January 27, 2018, 04:16:29 PM
That’s a broad sweeping generalization against a fan base. I’m a Michigan fan, and I want done what is right. Most alumni from Michigan I have talked to have stated the same, that goes for Spartans I know too. ESPN has its flaws, but it also looks very bad to take the news source and immediately scream fake news.
I’m not calling for resignations or terminations yet, but the onion should be peeled back on this. If, and it’s a big if, the Travis Walton stuff is true, this looks very bad for Izzo. It also looks pretty terrible that the prosecuting attorney that chose not to pursue charges against Appling and Payne was hired a short while later by MSU as a Title IX employee. And as a coach you take responsibility for bringing someone like Auston Robertson to campus, given his history. When he committed a disgusting act I didn’t see anyone stepping out to apologize or take accountability.
I say this not as a fan, but as a father. I was disgusted with details on Brendan Gibbons for “my” school. More recently I was dismayed with how MN has handled Reggie Lynch as well, as a passive hometown fan. Stand up and take accountability as an adult and a coach and a father. I’m troubled that in many cases this hasn’t happened, including possibly with Dantonio and Izzo. It shouldn’t be too much to ask of program leaders making millions a year. It’s sad. It’s not being out for blood with a frivolous sports rivalry. A low rent reaction from a handful of basement message board and tweeter types may be disgusting, but Nassar and adults not taking accountability is afar more disgusting.
This is a really well spoken take, especially describing peeling the onion. There are definitely red flags that make me question the culture and demand further investigation, regardless of the school name and mascot.
My only contention is confusing an individual’s age with them being an adult. A person willing to do what Nassar did, or cover his actions, never reached adulthood. 
Title: Re: OT - Nassar
Post by: Honestbuckeye on January 27, 2018, 04:36:05 PM
Yes, it’s a good take.  Always peel the onion.

But I stand behind my comments.  Associating Nassar directly with either Izzo or Dantonio is dead wrong, and assuming assuming that either of them is guilty of anything, is wrong. And to say it mildly that is what they are doing.
Title: Re: OT - Nassar
Post by: iahawk15 on January 27, 2018, 04:38:14 PM
Fair enough.  We will wait to see what other information will come out.  But sometimes once the dominos start to fall, its hard to know where it all stops.
Yes, exactly. I'm not grabbing my pitchfork based exclusively on an OTL segment.
Title: Re: OT - Nassar
Post by: Honestbuckeye on January 27, 2018, 04:40:51 PM
That's only what dictators say.
So, is Schiano guilty of any wrongdoing while he coached at PSU- because some hack journalist with a clear agenda says so?  Despite the fact that he never was a coach there at the same time as the creep?
Come on man wake up.  If you have today’s digital age, social media, main stream media competing for clicks and viewers, and no accountability- you get a mob mentality. And to be clear, it has no political boundaries.
Title: Re: OT - Nassar
Post by: Honestbuckeye on January 27, 2018, 04:46:50 PM
What comes to my mind during these horrible stories is the CERTAINTY that there are dozens (if not hundreds) of other Nassars out there.  Smaller profile, smaller school monsters doing this, getting away with it, and never coming to justice.

That is scary, and sad. But likely true.
Title: Re: OT - Nassar
Post by: HailHailMSP on January 27, 2018, 05:21:34 PM
So, is Schiano guilty of any wrongdoing while he coached at PSU- because some hack journalist with a clear agenda says so?  Despite the fact that he never was a coach there at the same time as the creep?
Come on man wake up.  If you have today’s digital age, social media, main stream media competing for clicks and viewers, and no accountability- you get a mob mentality. And to be clear, it has no political boundaries.
Let us not forget that without a couple courageous survivors and a couple “hack” journalists from the Indy star Larry Nassar is still out in the free world doing his thing.
https://t.co/9jPjNj1Wyu (https://t.co/9jPjNj1Wyu). How many times did the victims speak to someone about Nassar before two journalists said to themselves this doesn’t feel right.
Travis Walton should have been suspended. Auston Robertson should not have been recruited or admitted. Brendan Gibbons and Taylor Lewan (supressing Gibbons accuser) should have been suspended. Reggie Lynch should have been suspended and also never admitted. Tom Izzo, Mark Dantonio, Dave Brandon, Richard Pitino, and Mark Coyle failed us and our daughters. The buck could have stopped with them. They are powerful and make millions. They chose not to be accountable or act. 
Title: Re: OT - Nassar
Post by: Honestbuckeye on January 27, 2018, 05:55:45 PM
Let us not forget that without a couple courageous survivors and a couple “hack” journalists from the Indy star Larry Nassar is still out in the free world doing his thing.
https://t.co/9jPjNj1Wyu (https://t.co/9jPjNj1Wyu). How many times did the victims speak to someone about Nassar before two journalists said to themselves this doesn’t feel right.
Travis Walton should have been suspended. Auston Robertson should not have been recruited or admitted. Brendan Gibbons and Taylor Lewan (supressing Gibbons accuser) should have been suspended. Reggie Lynch should have been suspended and also never admitted. Tom Izzo, Mark Dantonio, Dave Brandon, Richard Pitino, and Mark Coyle failed us and our daughters. The buck could have stopped with them. They are powerful and make millions. They chose not to be accountable or act.
Sweet.  Next time I need quick Justice, I know where to go to for sheriff, judge and jury.
Title: Re: OT - Nassar
Post by: ELA on January 27, 2018, 06:03:56 PM
FTR, I was HIGHLY critical on CFN at the time that Dantonio should have booted Winston and Rucker immediately.  I thought Winston's crime was too serious to get a second chance, and Rucker didn't deserve a third chance.

And I agree not recruited Robertson.  But he literally did the exact same thing that Grant Perry did, and Perry pled guilty to a felony.  Let's be careful about glass houses there.  If that one is on Dantonio, and I agree it is, Perry playing this year is equally on Harbaugh.

The whole thing stinks, and it's why big time athletics needs to be taken out of universities.

MSU has a major culture problem.  Is it just as bad anywhere else you dug?  I don't personally care, MSU is bad and that's enough.  People don't care, they care about sports.  Fire Izzo, fire Dantonio, everyone is happy.  Then MSU can just keep on like the fixed the problem?  Sorry, no.  The private investigation said MSU had a major university wide problem.  The DOE has them on heightened monitoring due to campus wide issues.  That's what bothers me.  That I don't want to wear my MSU pullover to run errands.  That I don't know what the client who walks into my office thinks when they see my MSU diploma.  You want blood, you want to fire the coaches, go for it.  If they are a symptom of the problem, that solves nothing.  MSU has to fix the problem, starting at the top down, and fortunately, that's where they've started.

The same ESPN journalist who released this, had an article two years ago saying the results of her investigation into MSU was that football players were not prosecuted at a lower level than regular students.  Every piece of evidence suggests it's not a sports problem, it's an MSU problem.  Is it a nation wide problem?  Probably.  Don't care.  It's an MSU problem.  If the optics of firing coaches appeases some, and the optics look good, go for it.  But if you'd rather fix the image, than fix the problem, no thanks.  Fix the goddamned problem.
Title: Re: OT - Nassar
Post by: 847badgerfan on January 27, 2018, 06:20:32 PM
Extreme would be to castrate any sexual offender.

But it might be a damn effective deterrent.
Title: Re: OT - Nassar
Post by: OrangeAfroMan on January 27, 2018, 06:44:24 PM
Punishable by death.  You get 1 appeal.  The end.  
Title: Re: OT - Nassar
Post by: ELA on January 27, 2018, 07:01:16 PM
FTR, I was HIGHLY critical on CFN at the time that Dantonio should have booted Winston and Rucker immediately.  I thought Winston's crime was too serious to get a second chance, and Rucker didn't deserve a third chance.

And I agree not recruited Robertson.  But he literally did the exact same thing that Grant Perry did, and Perry pled guilty to a felony.  Let's be careful about glass houses there.  If that one is on Dantonio, and I agree it is, Perry playing this year is equally on Harbaugh.

The whole thing stinks, and it's why big time athletics needs to be taken out of universities.

MSU has a major culture problem.  Is it just as bad anywhere else you dug?  I don't personally care, MSU is bad and that's enough.  People don't care, they care about sports.  Fire Izzo, fire Dantonio, everyone is happy.  Then MSU can just keep on like the fixed the problem?  Sorry, no.  The private investigation said MSU had a major university wide problem.  The DOE has them on heightened monitoring due to campus wide issues.  That's what bothers me.  That I don't want to wear my MSU pullover to run errands.  That I don't know what the client who walks into my office thinks when they see my MSU diploma.  You want blood, you want to fire the coaches, go for it.  If they are a symptom of the problem, that solves nothing.  MSU has to fix the problem, starting at the top down, and fortunately, that's where they've started.

The same ESPN journalist who released this, had an article two years ago saying the results of her investigation into MSU was that football players were not prosecuted at a lower level than regular students.  Every piece of evidence suggests it's not a sports problem, it's an MSU problem.  Is it a nation wide problem?  Probably.  Don't care.  It's an MSU problem.  If the optics of firing coaches appeases some, and the optics look good, go for it.  But if you'd rather fix the image, than fix the problem, no thanks.  Fix the goddamned problem.
Forde with an article I agree with.  That there were two parts of the story.  The Izzo/Dantonio part that was tenuous at best, but DOES DESERVE FURTHER INVESTIGATION.  Then the troubling part that is getting ignored because it involves faceless administration.  This is what concerns me as an alum.  That firing two coaches appeases the masses, the story dies down and nothing gets fixed.
https://sports.yahoo.com/becoming-clear-michigan-state-prized-image-protection-far-truth-233843392.html
Title: Re: OT - Nassar
Post by: Hawkinole on January 28, 2018, 12:20:16 AM
Forde with an article I agree with.  That there were two parts of the story.  The Izzo/Dantonio part that was tenuous at best, but DOES DESERVE FURTHER INVESTIGATION.  Then the troubling part that is getting ignored because it involves faceless administration.  This is what concerns me as an alum.  That firing two coaches appeases the masses, the story dies down and nothing gets fixed.
https://sports.yahoo.com/becoming-clear-michigan-state-prized-image-protection-far-truth-233843392.html
From the linked article about the 2014 Thomashow complaint:
"The newspaper got both copies of the report. The one that was sent to Thomashow had the following conclusion: 'We cannot find that the conduct was of a sexual nature. Thus, it did not violate the Sexual Harassment Policy. However, we find the claim helpful in that it allows us to examine certain practices at the MSU Sports Medicine Clinic.'
The conclusion in the copy that was sent to the others went much further:"
Quote

“We cannot find that the conduct was of a sexual nature. Thus, it did not violate the Sexual Harassment Policy. However, we find the claim helpful in that it brought to light some significant problems that the practice will want to address.
“We find that whether medically sound or not, the failure to adequately explain procedures such as these invasive, sensitive procedures, is opening the practice up to liability and is exposing patients to unnecessary trauma based on the possibility of perceived inappropriate sexual misconduct. In addition, we find that the failure to obtain consent from patients prior to the procedure is likewise exposing the practice to liability. If procedures can be performed skin-on-skin or over clothes in the breast or pelvic floor area, it would seem patients should have the choice between the two. Having a resident, nurse or someone in the room during a sensitive procedure protects doctors and provides patients with peace of mind. If ‘touching is what DO’s do’ and that is not commonly known, perhaps the practice will want to consider a disclaimer or information sheet with that information provided to the patient up front.
“Finally, we believe the practice should consider whether its procedure for intake of complaints about physicians’ behavior is adequate. Ms. Thomashow claims she tried to file a complaint with the front desk receptionist, telling her that she was canceling her appointment because she felt ‘violated.’ Whether this triggers a reporting protocol should be examined by the practice.”
My legal conclusion: MSU did an investigation. MSU reports to the victim there was no sexual abuse, and turns around and reports to the medical clinic you did not get informed consent for this procedure. Failure to get informed consent is what is known in the civil law as "medical battery." And while it is rarely prosecuted, it is also a crime.
This is unbelievable what they wrote to Thomashow, versus what they wrote to the clinic. And, failed to report to law enforcement.
Title: Re: OT - Nassar
Post by: SuperMario on January 28, 2018, 01:56:16 AM
Decent article from Andy Staples:

https://www.si.com/college-football/2018/01/26/michigan-state-mark-dantonio-tom-izzo-espn-report (https://www.si.com/college-football/2018/01/26/michigan-state-mark-dantonio-tom-izzo-espn-report)

I thought the last two paragraphs were spot on. As Staples noted, it’s important to recognize that the OTL report was not definitive.

ELA - keep your head up. While the Nassar situation is likely not common, it’s difficult for me to believe that the culture of covering up for athletes is solely an MSU problem. This could have happened and likely does happen at many institutions.
Title: Re: OT - Nassar
Post by: OrangeAfroMan on January 28, 2018, 05:15:03 AM
This is the same as the sexual harassment thing - it happens EVERYWHERE.  Nassar's the bad guy, he's the big story, going to jail with fire and brimstone from the judge........he just happens to be one that got caught.

MSU is guilty of doing what too many places are doing, too.  Hopefully for them, they're not made the example of and hopefully more Nassars are exposed and going forward, the vacuum in which his filthy ilk works in is eliminated everywhere.
Title: Re: OT - Nassar
Post by: CatsbyAZ on January 28, 2018, 09:00:46 AM
MSU has a major culture problem.  Is it just as bad anywhere else you dug? ...The DOE has them on heightened monitoring due to campus wide issues.  That's what bothers me.  That I don't want to wear my MSU pullover to run errands.  That I don't know what the client who walks into my office thinks when they see my MSU diploma.  You want blood, you want to fire the coaches, go for it.  If they are a symptom of the problem, that solves nothing.  MSU has to fix the problem, starting at the top down, and fortunately, that's where they've started.
The good news, in the sense of fandom and educational associations with MSU, is that the masses forget and move on from these scandals quickly. The only time I ever hear hostilities about Penn St is from my Michigan fan relatives who bring it up because don't like Penn St anyway, and that whole fallout was only 6 years ago.
Title: Re: OT - Nassar
Post by: Temp430 on January 29, 2018, 08:48:14 AM
Institutions like MSU have procedures to handle allegations of sexual assault.  If Izzo and Dantonio followed them and did not try to cover anything up they're fine.  Only want to see those who deserve to have their lives ruined get it.  Innocent until proven guilty.
Title: Re: OT - Nassar
Post by: ELA on January 29, 2018, 09:02:17 AM
Institutions like MSU have procedures to handle allegations of sexual assault.  If Izzo and Dantonio followed them and did not try to cover anything up they're fine.  Only want to see those who deserve to have their lives ruined get it.  Innocent until proven guilty.
Yeah, I'm cringing at the people ready to bury them, and the MSU fans who are already supporting them.  I don't really get any take right now, other than "lets take a look at this."  I think the OTL report has major, major flaws, but there's way too much smoke for anyone to be out publicly supporting either of them right now either.
Title: Re: OT - Nassar
Post by: PSUinNC on January 29, 2018, 09:42:03 AM
My understanding is that OTL got the lion's share of its information from the legwork done by the Indianapolis Star.  OTL just put it together more for a national delivery.

It's not unlike the work done by the Harrisburg Patriot News, who 'broke' the Sandusky scandal wide open (and Ganim won the Pullitzer Prize for).

Title: Re: OT - Nassar
Post by: PSUinNC on January 29, 2018, 09:45:57 AM
Institutions like MSU have procedures to handle allegations of sexual assault.  If Izzo and Dantonio followed them and did not try to cover anything up they're fine.  Only want to see those who deserve to have their lives ruined get it.  Innocent until proven guilty.
Joe Paterno, to the letter of law and procedure, did exactly this at Penn State.  Who here is ready to retroactively give Paterno a pass based on a statement like this?  I'm not myself.
That said, I also gave Paterno the benefit of innocence until guilt proven and came to my own conclusion he was 'guilty' of not having done more than he was capable of doing, even if he did follow procedure and protocol.  I have a feeling I'll come to the same conclusion with Tom Izzo and Mark Dantonio.  
Title: Re: OT - Nassar
Post by: PSUinNC on January 29, 2018, 09:50:32 AM
Yeah, I'm cringing at the people ready to bury them, and the MSU fans who are already supporting them.  I don't really get any take right now, other than "lets take a look at this."  I think the OTL report has major, major flaws, but there's way too much smoke for anyone to be out publicly supporting either of them right now either.
So did the Freeh report and look at the fallout from that?  
On a whole, I find it Interesting the narrative that's evolving about this as opposed to what it was 5-6 years ago with Penn State.  Being a Penn State fan is a very interesting (and unfortunate) place to be watching this unfold.  
Maybe we learned something from that situation to take a deep breath and let the facts come out before we as a society pass judgment bearing pitchforks and torches.  Those who needed to be punished ultimately were (Curley, Shutlz and Spanier), but in the court of public opinion they never received due process; they were guilty the day Sandusky was taken in to custody.  
Title: Re: OT - Nassar
Post by: SFBadger96 on January 29, 2018, 12:33:31 PM
For the extreme punishment crowd:

1) Plenty of governments have tried; it doesn't work;

2) Sure puts a lot of faith in the government to get prosecutions right. That's one of the things that led to the rebellion from Britain. It's an American tradition to distrust the government, but it's funny, the same people who don't trust authorities in one circumstance, often believe its our patriotic duty to support the authorities in another.

It feels good to say, but the devil is in the details. And I suspect you don't really mean it, but it still bugs me to read it.
Title: Re: OT - Nassar
Post by: CatsbyAZ on January 29, 2018, 01:47:42 PM
For the extreme punishment crowd:

1) Plenty of governments have tried; it doesn't work;
Extreme punishments (hand severing for stealing, death for drug moving) don't work because of the psychological nature of crime. Crime, especially as it gets more severe, is at heart a narcisstic act. Those committing murder hardly think to look into the legal blowback; the thought process never gets that far because they genuinely believe they cannot be caught. The prospect of the death penalty is limited as a preventative affect.
Title: Re: OT - Nassar
Post by: ELA on January 29, 2018, 04:06:45 PM
No surprise, but the AGs investigation is starting with

1.)the gymnastics coach

2.) the Dean of the School of Ortho, and 

3.) the MSU doctor and former co-worker of Nassar who apparently removed certain files at Nassar's request, and was told by Nassar of USA Gymnastics investigation of him, and didn't report this fact to MSU

Those are the three that seem most unable to escape some level of prosecution, so start there, see what they'll give up in exchange for leniency.
Title: Re: OT - Nassar
Post by: ELA on January 29, 2018, 05:50:14 PM
MSU interim President says school plans to hire a new AD in the next 24 to 48 hours.

Not sure how I feel about that.  I get that you need someone in charge for something like this, and given the nature it probably shouldn't (for optics) be someone on the inside, but this job is going to extend beyond these issues, and that seems incredibly fast to conduct any sort of legitimate search.
Title: Re: OT - Nassar
Post by: ELA on January 30, 2018, 11:18:22 AM
FWIW, Travis Walton's statement

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DUzQrqRWkAAgkeA.jpg)
Title: Re: OT - Nassar
Post by: HailHailMSP on January 30, 2018, 01:23:57 PM
It's always amazing what a creative PR type and a lawyer can draft up, when put in a room together.


I hate it when I am talking to a woman in a bar and she just randomly throws a drink in my face unprovoked. I usually walk out right away. Happens all the time.


And maybe not an employee, but:

 it was Coach Izzo who stepped in and made Travis an offer he couldn’t refuse. “I was nine hours short of graduation,” Walton says. “Coach Izzo encouraged me to return to MSU, work with him as a student assistant coach, and earn my degree.”
Walton moved into Izzo’s basement and spent the year completing his degree, learning the art of coaching
http://www.limaohio.com/sports/281851/tom-izzos-coaching-dna-runs-deep-in-travis-walton (http://www.limaohio.com/sports/281851/tom-izzos-coaching-dna-runs-deep-in-travis-walton)
Title: Re: OT - Nassar
Post by: ELA on January 30, 2018, 01:48:16 PM
It's clear you've made up your mind, as I said earlier I find it odd that anyone can have done that either way (I said I cringe at the MSU fans posting blind support of Izzo online too).  I'm just posting the continuing details as reported for anyone who doesn't feel like following, without opinion.

It also seems like the AG made a weird choice for lead investigator, considering it seems like he may have some former ties to MSU's top donor.  So I imagine we might get a replacement there soon.
Title: Re: OT - Nassar
Post by: SFBadger96 on January 30, 2018, 01:55:27 PM
The frustrating thing about the truth is that it's not always what is easy or what we want.

I want to believe the women because there is so much evidence that there is so much abuse directed at them, so generally I do. Nonetheless, I know--as does any thinking person--that in any individual case the truth may be somewhat different. I firmly believe that the overwhelming majority of accusers are truthful. I think the facts bear that out (surely there is some research on this point). I also believe there are instances (Aziz Ansari comes to mind) in which each party has a completely different understanding of what happened, despite experiencing the same event (shoot, this even happens to fans watching a football game). And finally, there are actual false accusations. Duke Lacrosse comes to mind, and much closer to home, SFIrish investigated just such an incident as an officer in the Army.

I very much doubt a woman just randomly threw a beer in someone's face, but what it took to encourage her to let fly could obviously be a lot less than an assault.
Title: Re: OT - Nassar
Post by: HailHailMSP on January 30, 2018, 02:23:37 PM
I can't say I have made up my mind. I get a kick out statements like that though. Makes me wonder what Mixon's statements would have been absent video in the OK case.

ESPN has a lot of holes in their content. The unfortunate thing in this is that ESPN will follow their typical model of creating news. I get the sense that they are holding back some info on this "investigation" and will release it bit by bit, some if will be substantive, much of it won't. The problem for Michigan State will be, it is going to be death by a thousand paper cuts, with other media outlets glomming on to the "news of the day."

I would say I see the same as you, albeit maybe from a slightly different lens. Wait it out. If I was leaning one way or the other though, I think Izzo comes out of this ok if he wants to stick it out, Dantonio not as much. But that's just a hunch. Izzo seems more emotional and beaten down by this. Dantonio more confrontational. While Izzo's statements have been spun every which way, it comes across as genuine. Could be my biased lens though since I've met Izzo a few times via family friends and he comes across as a genuinely good person. While football is a bigger program Dantonio has more "instances" he will have to respond to in the coming weeks, and I think his personality may get the best of him.

Bacon reconciled at least some of my thoughts on this, including the NCAA involvement. http://michiganradio.org/post/bacon-izzo-dantonio-need-be-ready-some-tough-and-necessary-questions (http://michiganradio.org/post/bacon-izzo-dantonio-need-be-ready-some-tough-and-necessary-questions)
Title: Re: OT - Nassar
Post by: ELA on January 30, 2018, 03:13:48 PM
My wild speculation is that Hollis is going to be the one coming out of this the worst.  The fact that people I consider legitimate insiders, not just message board insiders, but guys who don't let stuff go anywhere online were surprised by a couple of these things, and how Dantonio handled the only two incidents that ESPN could actually lie him to having any knowledge to, mixed with Hollis' immediate resignation make me think he was running stuff from the ADs chair.  Either because he had the power to do so, or he wanted to give his coaches plausible deniability.  In a lot of ways that is far scarier to me.  Coaches are in the trenches, and a lot of things certain coaches have gotten swept up I think look a lot owrse from the outside than when you are in the moment.  The idea of an AD controlling certain things from that position makes me really uneasy, and if so, I don't know what the penalties for MSU would be, it's new territory, but I think they have to be harsh.  You can't let programs get by by making sure the individual sports aren't involved.  So how do you punish?  Something like a massive fine and an athletics department wide postseason ban?  Again, this is just my speculation, but gun to my head where this is going, that's where I'm leaning, to a department wide type penalty.
Title: Re: OT - Nassar
Post by: ELA on January 30, 2018, 03:16:35 PM
MSU appoints former Governor John Engler as interim President, with his predecessor, Jim Blanchard as his top advisor.  So the two guys who served MI as governor for the entirety of 1983-2003, one R, one D, both MSU alums, now running the school.
Title: Re: OT - Nassar
Post by: Geolion91 on January 31, 2018, 09:11:01 AM
I'm still not sure what to think about this on MSU's end.  It sounds like police and whatnot were informed and investigated.  They chose not to file charges.  That is wholly different than not notifying anyone (re: PSU).  I'm not sure how hard I can hammer administration for basically following proper channels and getting the wrong result.  Maybe I'm missing something.
Actually, the police were notified in 1998, and chose not to prosecute after a brief investigation.
Title: Re: OT - Nassar
Post by: PSUinNC on January 31, 2018, 11:00:32 AM
Actually, the police were notified in 1998, and chose not to prosecute after a brief investigation.
http://www.post-gazette.com/home/2011/12/18/Retired-detective-describes-1998-Sandusky-investigation/stories/201112180175
And as stated above, whether you agree or disagree that he "should have done more" given his standing in the community, to the letter of procedure in place at the time, Joe Paterno his supervisor of the matter.  C/S/S were all convicted (or pled, in Curley and Shultz's matter) of failing to further report the 2001 McQuery incident to law enforcement.  Paterno was harshly rebuked by the judge as well, but I've read that legally he likely wouldn't have been prosecuted if he had been alive since he did follow protocol (again, not saying I agree that he shouldn't and couldn't have done more, just speaking in pure legal stance here).
I have to be honest - I'm struggling a bit with this board's reaction to this whole thing.  There was a decent amount of divisiveness on this board in 2011/2012 as to what should happen to both PSU's program as well as the individuals.  More than one poster thought the DP and literally full shutdown was in order; some thought the NCAA had no right to intervene but that Paterno should go to jail.  I frankly don't see that with regard to MSU - why is that?  If Dantonio and Izzo were possibly involved in coverups, how's that different here?
I'm not posting this to downplay what happened at PSU, or in any way to say "Well, if Penn State got punished so should MSU."  I'm simply trying to understand what seems to be a much milder response to this universally - both here and in the media - than what happened at Penn State.  The situations seem extraordinarily similar, but frankly seems the Penn State situation is seen as much more devious, turning a blind eye, cover-up, etc.  
Am I missing something? 
Title: Re: OT - Nassar
Post by: ELA on January 31, 2018, 11:01:36 AM
My wild speculation is that Hollis is going to be the one coming out of this the worst.  
My slightly more than two cents of elaboration on this point...
Background into the ESPN story.  There was a story a few years back about how at UF and FSU, football and basketball players were prosecuted at a far lower rate than when charges were brought against members of the student body as a whole.  ESPN wanted to investigate whether this was a UF/FSU problem, or a major college sports problem (I think we all know it's a pretty across the board thing, but you need proof).  MSU was one of the schools they picked as a comparison point, as another large state school.   That is where the brunt of this legwork came from.  The result of that was a 2015 story that concluded the MSU athletes faced the same prosecution rate as non-athletes, but that their findings were not totally conclusive because of redacted reports.  I believe the only new story in the new ESPN report were the 2 assaults last year, involving 4 players, all 4 were suspended immediately, and then were kicked off the team permanently, as soon as charges were filed, before their first court appearance.

So to the charges in the ESPN story

-5 incidents (3 assault, 2 sexual assualt) involving football players where no charges were filed, no evidence Dantonio was alerted

-1 incident (sexual assault) in 2007 involving football players, where nothing was ever reported to anyone, and was only discovered in 2014 when her parents read her diary, at which point police investigated

-2 2016 incidents (sexual assault) involving 4 football players, mentioned above, all suspended immediately, then kicked out, plus the firing of his top recruiter for not reporting the incident to Dantonio immediately, and trying to handle it himself

-Appling/Payne 2010 (Sexual assault) incident which was known, and investigated by both the DAs office, and the MSU Title IX, which led to nothing

-two Travis Walton incidents (one assault, one sexual assault), which occurred after he was done playing, while he was a student assistant.  One was pled down to littering due to conflicting witness reports.  The second of which, according to ESPN he was fired as soon as the accusation happened, even though that allegation went nowhere.  Oddly ESPN claims MSU fired him, Walton claims he wasn't in any official capacity and had always planned on just leaving when he graduated.

First, ESPN doesn't really state their thesis.  Is it that violence by MSU athletes is a problem?  Is it that MSU athletics is covering up?  Is it that MSU is coercing law enforcement in their handling?

For the first, we'd need a wider investigation, to get some sort of a comparison.  I agree any violence is too much.

Is it that MSU athletics is covering it up?  Of the 11 incidents mentioned above, the police were involved immediately every time, except the time where the incident wasn't discovered until reading her diary 7 years later, at which point it was investigated.

So I guess it has to be some sort of MSU/law enforcement coercion.  It seems odd considering their 2015 story says athletes and non-athletes were prosecuted at the same rate, and the only new incidents involved all 4 athletes being arrested, charged and kicked off the team, with the additional firing of a coach for mis-handling it.  Not sure how that has made things worse.  I think it has more to do with ESPN trying to give legs to a Nassar story, by giving it new legs.  That said, I agree MSU has a problem with handling these.  You don't have to take my word for it.  The Department of Education and an independent Pepper Hamilton investigation that were both focused on the school as a whole have said as much.  So if they are mis-handling cases at large, it stands to reason they are mis-handling these too.

But that brings me back to Hollis.  I don't think the Nassar thing was on him nearly enough for an immediate resignation.  I don't even think Simon's resignation was forced by MSU's bumbling of Nassar so much has badly they continued to bumble it while it was in the nation's eye.  I'm not sure that level of MSU-wide PR, and control over the Board of Trustees was coming down on the Athletic Director.  I think Hollis was 100% tied to this story.  And again, the facts as I've laid them out above, aren't enough to lose a job over.  11 incidents over the course of a decade, where the police were involved every time.  So there has to be something more there.  I would say the red flag to me is the lack of prosecution on all but the 2016 cases (9 of 11).  Again, none of the cases as of the 2015 ESPN report were prosecuted, and they said it was fine then, but that's where something smells to me.  They can't find any proof that MD knew, but they don't say one way or the other about the AD.  If he also didn't know, I see no reason to immediately resign over this.  So that's me speculating.

My questions going forward has to do with the 5 unreported football player incidents, and the Walton stuff.  (1) Did Dantonio or Hollis know about those 5 incidents?  Why did the victim decline to bring charges in those cases.  Even if charges weren't brought, was there enough that MSU should have still punished them from the football side?  (2) With the Walton incidents, why were the charges reduced?  What were those conflicting witness reports?  And what did Izzo think.  Maybe the attorneys are telling him to say absolutely nothing, but a statement of "I had a player on my team for four years, a captain, who was helping out after using up his eligibility.  I asked him, I trusted him, and the lack of charges brought backed up his story.  When he was accused a second time, I removed him from the team.  I regret trusting him the first time, and if I could go back I wish I hadn't, but based on our relationship, and the actions of the police, I felt comfortable at the time.  When it happened again, he had broken that trust."  Based on the facts, that seems like a perfectly reasonable statement to me.  But he hasn't made it.  Is it because they've told him to say absolutely nothing, or is it because it isn't true?  My gut feeling based on the silence, and Hollis' actions, is that he knew and did something well below board.

From a purely athletics standpoint, those are the two major questions I want answered.  From an MSU-wide standpoint, there are major, major issues.  Both in terms of leadership and handling of sexual assault.  While the public probably doesn't care about MSU aside from how they do on a football field/basketball court, those things are WAAAAAAY down the list for me.  MSU can appease the interwebz by having Dantonio and Izzo follow Simon and Hollis out the door, but if they think firing a couple of coaches fixes anything, they are wrong, and that's what scares me.  That MSU's PR is so bad right now, that the decisions moving forward are going to have more to do with fixing the image than fixing the problem, and we'll be right back here in 7 years.  To go with that, there are multiple facets to running a university, and the movement from within to purely promote a female faculty member to fix the sexual assault problem is very shortsighted.  Hire someone with a background there to do that job.  Give her that title, and give her power.  But the role of the President needs to be much broader than that, and with the spectrum of investigations coming MSU's way, a professor is nearly the last person who should be running those things.
Title: Re: OT - Nassar
Post by: ELA on January 31, 2018, 11:10:02 AM
I have to be honest - I'm struggling a bit with this board's reaction to this whole thing.  There was a decent amount of divisiveness on this board in 2011/2012 as to what should happen to both PSU's program as well as the individuals.  More than one poster thought the DP and literally full shutdown was in order; some thought the NCAA had no right to intervene but that Paterno should go to jail.  I frankly don't see that with regard to MSU - why is that?  If Dantonio and Izzo were possibly involved in coverups, how's that different here?
I'm not posting this to downplay what happened at PSU, or in any way to say "Well, if Penn State got punished so should MSU."  I'm simply trying to understand what seems to be a much milder response to this universally - both here and in the media - than what happened at Penn State.  The situations seem extraordinarily similar, but frankly seems the Penn State situation is seen as much more devious, turning a blind eye, cover-up, etc.  
Am I missing something?
I don't recall much divisiveness, I think most here found the backlash against PSU as a whole deplorable.  I also think maybe being a little more disconnected from it, you don't notice it as much.  I've seen far more vitriol towards MSU online than I did towards PSU, but it could be I'm more tuned into it, and it's the nature of the people I follow on social media are more apt to chime in on MSU than they were on PSU.
I think part of it is that I don't think we know enough yet with MSU.  PSU, Baylor and MSU are all getting lumped together, but really the issues were very different, aside from the fact that the underlying crime was sexual assault.  And I'm speaking just to the coaches here, Paterno, Briles and Dantonio/Izzo
The Paterno question was always did he have a moral obligation to do more than the bare minimum legally/professionally.  There nobody questioned that he did what he had to do, but did he do as much as he should have done?  Briles was actively hindering investigations by handling things internally rather than going to police, that's why there is almost no split on his treatment.
Here, as I posted above, we don't know.  We know they certainly didn't go as far as Briles, the police were involved every time.  But we also don't know what they knew, which brings us more into the Paterno realm.  If legally MSU dotted all the is and crossed all the ts, but the coaches still knew more and should have punished more internally, that's one question.  If they were in some way hindering investigations or suppressing potential charges, either at the coaches level or the administrators level, we are closer to the Briles realm
Title: Re: OT - Nassar
Post by: PSUinNC on January 31, 2018, 11:23:41 AM
I don't recall much divisiveness, I think most here found the backlash against PSU as a whole deplorable.  I also think maybe being a little more disconnected from it, you don't notice it as much.  I've seen far more vitriol towards MSU online than I did towards PSU, but it could be I'm more tuned into it, and it's the nature of the people I follow on social media are more apt to chime in on MSU than they were on PSU.
I think part of it is that I don't think we know enough yet with MSU.  PSU, Baylor and MSU are all getting lumped together, but really the issues were very different, aside from the fact that the underlying crime was sexual assault.  And I'm speaking just to the coaches here, Paterno, Briles and Dantonio/Izzo
The Paterno question was always did he have a moral obligation to do more than the bare minimum legally/professionally.  There nobody questioned that he did what he had to do, but did he do as much as he should have done?  Briles was actively hindering investigations by handling things internally rather than going to police, that's why there is almost no split on his treatment.
Here, as I posted above, we don't know.  We know they certainly didn't go as far as Briles, the police were involved every time.  But we also don't know what they knew, which brings us more into the Paterno realm.  If legally MSU dotted all the is and crossed all the ts, but the coaches still knew more and should have punished more internally, that's one question.  If they were in some way hindering investigations or suppressing potential charges, either at the coaches level or the administrators level, we are closer to the Briles realm
Great response, appreciate the thought you put into this.  And I think you're right - I'm not as sensitive and tuned into this as I was with Penn State, so there's definitely an angle to that.  The only thing I will disagree about is that there were definitely some on here (or the old board, I should say) who were calling to burn State College down.  Don't recall screen names, but it did happen.

I simply cannot believe that Art Briles isn't in jail.  I can't.  Then again, I also see that the state of Texas subpoenaed a few ex Baylor higher ups the other day.  But man, Baylor has gotten a massive amount of leniency to this that I simply can't understand.  
Title: Re: OT - Nassar
Post by: MaximumSam on January 31, 2018, 11:53:09 AM
I don't know if it is that complicated.  Child molesters are pretty much the lowest of the low.  Sandusky and Nassar are child molesters.  However, there was a lot of smoke that something was going on that wasn't reported.  Sandusky wasn't just some random dude - he worked closely with Paterno for years.  

Nassar is a similar monster, but I don't know what that has to do with Izzo and Dantonio.  The OTL report seems like it was trying to piggy back domestic violence and sexual violence onto Nassar's crimes.  That makes no sense.  Most of the reports were investigated by law enforcement or MSU's administration separate from the coaches.  

To me the difference is that you can very clearly draw a straight line in the PSU case between inaction by the people in the football program and Sandusky, and there is no line between Nassar and people in the popular sports at MSU. 
Title: Re: OT - Nassar
Post by: 847badgerfan on January 31, 2018, 12:01:12 PM
I actually supported Paterno until it became impossible to do. I also, from the start and through today, never believed it was an NCAA matter, but rather civil. I'll take that to my grave.

IF, and only IF, this MSU thing comes to show that kids were protected by Izzo and Dantonio for the sole purpose of keeping them eligible, I would say it's an NCAA matter. Until then, it's a civil matter and even still, has nothing to do with Nasser, unless a school-wide culture of turning the other way comes to light.

We have to wait and see what comes of all of this. There is no judgement to pass yet.
Title: Re: OT - Nassar
Post by: ELA on January 31, 2018, 12:10:30 PM
Walton's accuser posted her initial police report online, which mirrors what she told ESPN
Title: Re: OT - Nassar
Post by: 847badgerfan on January 31, 2018, 12:49:48 PM
Please save me from giving ESfuPN a click. Thanks.
Title: Re: OT - Nassar
Post by: ELA on January 31, 2018, 01:02:19 PM
Please save me from giving ESfuPN a click. Thanks.
He was hitting on her, wouldn't leave her alone, she took a swipe at him, more of a "back off" swipe, then he hit her.  He denies it.  She filed a police report stating as much.  Police said they reduced the charges after getting conflicting witness reports.

What actually happened isn't really the important part now for all of this.  The questions are why were the charges dropped, were the conflicting witness accounts legit, and was Izzo involved in that process of getting them reduced?  If Izzo's career ends because he helped cover up an assault of a former player, 8 years ago, after said players career was over, that would be one of thee great idiotic moves of all time on his part.

But see my post above, now buried on the last page, for my thoughts overall on what I want from this investigation.
Title: Re: OT - Nassar
Post by: 847badgerfan on January 31, 2018, 01:05:57 PM
It may have been said here but I think University Police should be done away with.

These are not sovereign nations. Law enforcement in the city/county/state in which the school operates should be the end game.
Title: Re: OT - Nassar
Post by: PSUinNC on January 31, 2018, 01:08:00 PM
It may have been said here but I think University Police should be done away with.

These are not sovereign nations. Law enforcement in the city/county/state in which the school operates should be the end game.
Totally agreed
Title: Re: OT - Nassar
Post by: PSUinNC on January 31, 2018, 01:08:42 PM
I don't know if it is that complicated.  Child molesters are pretty much the lowest of the low.  Sandusky and Nassar are child molesters.  However, there was a lot of smoke that something was going on that wasn't reported.  Sandusky wasn't just some random dude - he worked closely with Paterno for years.  

Nassar is a similar monster, but I don't know what that has to do with Izzo and Dantonio.  The OTL report seems like it was trying to piggy back domestic violence and sexual violence onto Nassar's crimes.  That makes no sense.  Most of the reports were investigated by law enforcement or MSU's administration separate from the coaches.  

To me the difference is that you can very clearly draw a straight line in the PSU case between inaction by the people in the football program and Sandusky, and there is no line between Nassar and people in the popular sports at MSU.
But there is a clear line between Nassar, the MSU gymnastics program and other powerful figures (Hollis, Simon) similarly (almost identically) as there was between Sandusky, football and Curley and Spanier.
The OTL report was trying to tie together a 'culture' that facilitated this, not direclty link Izzo/Dantonio to Nassar.  It tried to pull a link between what happened with Nassar as part of the athletics dept AND the 'similar' allegations of assault in the football/basketball programs.  Isn't that exactly what the Freeh report supposedly did at Penn State - linked things Sandusky did (even outside of Penn State's four walls) to Paterno and the PSU brass?
This all to me begs a big question - is it because MSU doesn't directly involve an icon and b/c it's a sport that publicly people care very little about?
Title: Re: OT - Nassar
Post by: ELA on January 31, 2018, 01:11:48 PM
It may have been said here but I think University Police should be done away with.

These are not sovereign nations. Law enforcement in the city/county/state in which the school operates should be the end game.
Absolutely.  In East Lansing, it's at least a little clearer because campus and city are totally separated, but I know in Ann Arbor, where the two are far more geographically intertwined, it always got murkier as to where lines of jurisdiction ended.  I know the police themselves disliked it, although AAPD enjoyed not having to deal with dorm disturbances.
Title: Re: OT - Nassar
Post by: FearlessF on January 31, 2018, 02:04:46 PM
It may have been said here but I think University Police should be done away with.

These are not sovereign nations. Law enforcement in the city/county/state in which the school operates should be the end game.
yes, campus police have their roll.
stolen bikes, drunk & disorderly. food fights
nothing of a serious or violent nature
Title: Re: OT - Nassar
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on January 31, 2018, 02:08:56 PM
I'm not posting this to downplay what happened at PSU, or in any way to say "Well, if Penn State got punished so should MSU."  I'm simply trying to understand what seems to be a much milder response to this universally - both here and in the media - than what happened at Penn State.  The situations seem extraordinarily similar, but frankly seems the Penn State situation is seen as much more devious, turning a blind eye, cover-up, etc.  
Am I missing something?
Well, I think that pretty much everyone has said that anyone involved in the Nassar portion of it should be tossed out on their asses by MSU and possibly into jail by authorities.
This is for a few reasons.

Much of that matches the Sandusky stuff. It was someone who was in an official capacity, not an athlete. It involved minors. And of course it was creepy.

The difference is that Sandusky was part of the FOOTBALL program, whereas Nassar was not. Nassar was part of the Gymnastics program.

So nothing Izzo or Dantonio were involved in is DIRECTLY related to the Nassar stuff in the same way that Paterno et al. were related to the Sandusky stuff. The issue is whether they are emblematic of and complicit in a wider problem involving the entire athletic department. If they were actively involved in covering things up or in affecting police investigations, they should go. 
Title: Re: OT - Nassar
Post by: HailHailMSP on January 31, 2018, 03:21:52 PM
It seems like the ESPN OTL roadmap appears to be that this is a combo platter of Penn State (Sandusky = Nassar) + Baylor (Football, Bball assaults) and they are trying to tie it all together into some superstory of previously unseen magnitude.

The severity and magnitude of Baylor's issues go far beyond the worst of what ESPN is tying together for football and basketball at Michigan State at the moment. Much of what ESPN has aired could be found to be overblown and false or we could find out it is more troublesome than the original indictment. But to get to Baylor level it would have to go FAR BEYOND anything that is currently being reported. The Baylor story was big, but I don't get how it wasn't bigger at the time. It really was unprecedented and horrific.
Title: Re: OT - Nassar
Post by: 847badgerfan on January 31, 2018, 04:14:04 PM
If this was going on at Bama or Georgia or ... you get it.. You'd hear:

<<<crickets>>>

from ESfuPN.

Title: Re: OT - Nassar
Post by: CatsbyAZ on January 31, 2018, 05:34:00 PM
Nassar is a similar monster, but I don't know what that has to do with Izzo and Dantonio.  The OTL report seems like it was trying to piggy back domestic violence and sexual violence onto Nassar's crimes.  That makes no sense.  Most of the reports were investigated by law enforcement or MSU's administration separate from the coaches.  

To me the difference is that you can very clearly draw a straight line in the PSU case between inaction by the people in the football program and Sandusky, and there is no line between Nassar and people in the popular sports at MSU.
There's no line to draw between Nassar and Dantonio, but ESPN is trying to because the OTL report is nothing more than a hit piece against the football program. Dantonio has, in fact, dismissed a number his players recently, and for exactly the type of assault crimes ESPN is trying to sensationalize the football program over. Dantonio shouldn't have to field question about whether he "can survive this." Besides, much of OTL's details against the football program were connected by ESPN reporting last September. Hey, I wonder why those details were repackaged into a bigger report and released last week?
Title: Re: OT - Nassar
Post by: 847badgerfan on January 31, 2018, 06:19:04 PM
Hey, I wonder why those details were repackaged into a bigger report and released last week?
Because it's MSU and not msu/cowbell?
Title: Re: OT - Nassar
Post by: SuperMario on January 31, 2018, 10:55:14 PM
I don't know if it is that complicated.  Child molesters are pretty much the lowest of the low.  Sandusky and Nassar are child molesters.  However, there was a lot of smoke that something was going on that wasn't reported.  Sandusky wasn't just some random dude - he worked closely with Paterno for years.  

Nassar is a similar monster, but I don't know what that has to do with Izzo and Dantonio.  The OTL report seems like it was trying to piggy back domestic violence and sexual violence onto Nassar's crimes.  That makes no sense.  Most of the reports were investigated by law enforcement or MSU's administration separate from the coaches.  

To me the difference is that you can very clearly draw a straight line in the PSU case between inaction by the people in the football program and Sandusky, and there is no line between Nassar and people in the popular sports at MSU.
Great post!
I’ll happily admit that I was in the camp of burn PsU to the ground solely because I felt many supporting PSU were making football more important than the protection of innocent children. Priorities seemed backwards and it made me sick. I’m not saying our PSU posters on the board were at that level, but there were many PSU fans/alumni that felt protecting Paterno and his legacy was more important than the innocence of children. 
Based on the current state of PSU football, one could argue they got a slap on the wrist. Think that’s unfair, ask the victims if they got over their abuse as quickly as the program and school recovered.
Title: Re: OT - Nassar
Post by: GopherRock on February 01, 2018, 07:32:29 AM
Nice work, BoT

http://www.bridgemi.com/public-sector/msu-interim-president-john-engler-was-dismissive-sexual-assault-claims-governor
Title: Re: OT - Nassar
Post by: ELA on February 01, 2018, 12:48:51 PM
Hey, Nassar's attorney, could you say anything to make this worse?

http://www.espn.com/olympics/gymnastics/story/_/id/22286229/lawyer-shannon-smith-doubts-larry-nassar-assaulted-all-accusers
Title: Re: OT - Nassar
Post by: 847badgerfan on February 01, 2018, 01:15:27 PM
Why the F would she even go there now? It's done. Even with an appeal, he done. He's doing 60 for child porn anyway. This is VERY poor taste on the part of that attorney. Hopefully it affects her career and nobody would hire her, ever again.
Title: Re: OT - Nassar
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on February 01, 2018, 01:26:40 PM
It is sorta surprising that they ran this through the courts after he was already doing 60 for having CP on the PC. 

The odds of him surviving that sentence are pretty slim, I'd imagine. 
Title: Re: OT - Nassar
Post by: ELA on February 01, 2018, 01:27:11 PM
Yeah, I get that it's been hard for her, she's had death threats, and it sucks that people don't see the point of the job she had to do, and frankly we as Americans should be thankful that role is there.  But why go above and beyond like this?  Come on.
Title: Re: OT - Nassar
Post by: MaximumSam on February 01, 2018, 01:55:01 PM
Why the F would she even go there now? It's done. Even with an appeal, he done. He's doing 60 for child porn anyway. This is VERY poor taste on the part of that attorney. Hopefully it affects her career and nobody would hire her, ever again.
I don't know that people charged with crimes are looking for attorneys who won't defend them
Title: Re: OT - Nassar
Post by: ELA on February 01, 2018, 01:57:41 PM
I don't know that people charged with crimes are looking for attorneys who won't defend them
I think there's a difference in when you say it.  After all this, after sentencing, what's the point?
Title: Re: OT - Nassar
Post by: MaximumSam on February 01, 2018, 02:13:34 PM
I think there's a difference in when you say it.  After all this, after sentencing, what's the point?
Honestly, it sounds to me like she is defending all the people surrounding Nassar more than him.  That's an important message to put out, especially now.  He was a charming guy that everyone liked and was good at his job, which was why reports about him didn't go anywhere for so long.  In all these efforts to find other people to blame, they ignore the other victims, which were the people who defended him in good faith because they honestly thought everything was ok.  It may not be popular, but it is true, and that should be put forth whether people like it or not.
Title: Re: OT - Nassar
Post by: ELA on February 01, 2018, 04:33:24 PM
I don't know that people charged with crimes are looking for attorneys who won't defend them
Except even Nassar is like, nah, I'm the worst
https://twitter.com/DanMurphyESPN/status/959167667260329985
Title: Re: OT - Nassar
Post by: Hawkinole on February 02, 2018, 01:09:07 AM
This lawyer is very young, and inexperienced. That said, what experience could you have that would totally prepare you for these events. She is stating things now because she recognizes she didn't help him and possibly hurt him. There is very little lawyers in many states can say to the media -- until the case is concluded. But, without doubt, she could have done more to protect his image in state court.
From all appearances, Nassar is a guy mostly having high social intelligence. If you met him, most likely you would be drawn to him. She probably likes her client, and feels badly for letting 156 women give statements when that seems to have been a foible on her part, and she didn't anticipate how bad it would reflect on him. But who knows what led to all this . . . maybe he wanted that and felt he needed to hear it . . . but . . . that amount of publicity, even in protective custody, could endanger one's very existence in prison. Nassar has endured in this litigation more than most men could endure and not commit self-harm.
His life is in prison now.
I think I'd like to help someone write a book on preparing for prison life, someday. We see reports of suicides by people in that position. The least of us may deserve scorn. But the very least of us may also deserve compassion, as well.
Almost all of us have capacity for redemption, and to improve the lives of others, as well as our own. I hope Nassar can in some way redeem himself, but if that happens there will be little fanfare about it.
Title: Re: OT - Nassar
Post by: PSUinNC on February 02, 2018, 12:04:16 PM
Great post!
I’ll happily admit that I was in the camp of burn PsU to the ground solely because I felt many supporting PSU were making football more important than the protection of innocent children. Priorities seemed backwards and it made me sick. I’m not saying our PSU posters on the board were at that level, but there were many PSU fans/alumni that felt protecting Paterno and his legacy was more important than the innocence of children.
Based on the current state of PSU football, one could argue they got a slap on the wrist. Think that’s unfair, ask the victims if they got over their abuse as quickly as the program and school recovered.

So, basically, the two situations are not analogous and Michigan State University is in the clear of being complicit with what Larry Nassar was doing?
Title: Re: OT - Nassar
Post by: Geolion91 on February 02, 2018, 12:58:02 PM
I don't know if it is that complicated.  Child molesters are pretty much the lowest of the low.  Sandusky and Nassar are child molesters.  However, there was a lot of smoke that something was going on that wasn't reported.  Sandusky wasn't just some random dude - he worked closely with Paterno for years.  

Nassar is a similar monster, but I don't know what that has to do with Izzo and Dantonio.  The OTL report seems like it was trying to piggy back domestic violence and sexual violence onto Nassar's crimes.  That makes no sense.  Most of the reports were investigated by law enforcement or MSU's administration separate from the coaches.  

To me the difference is that you can very clearly draw a straight line in the PSU case between inaction by the people in the football program and Sandusky, and there is no line between Nassar and people in the popular sports at MSU.
Yes and no.  Sandusky retired from coaching in 1998, or 1999, not sure which.  After that he was no longer an active coach under Paterno, it was also well known that he and Paterno were not really friendly towards each other.  Paterno kept him there because he was a good coach.
Actually, what bothers me most about the PSU scandal is that a lot of people that hated PSU already were twisting the facts.  I had seen many message board posts, blogs, etc. claiming that Paterno was a molester.
I think the BoT used the scandal as an excuse to fire Paterno, they had been at odds with him for several years.  I think he should have stepped down anyway, as he had said would, but the BoT made a big show of firing him out of spite.
Title: Re: OT - Nassar
Post by: Hawkinole on February 03, 2018, 12:18:34 AM
It is potentially hurtful to an investigation to have an Attorney General probing sexual abuse issues in a highly public way while running for governor. Here is a quotable quote if there ever were one:

“What you have is an attorney general running for governor,” said John Truscott, speaking on behalf on the new president, former Michigan Gov. John Engler.

Almost makes your head spin how politically charged this could become. Is the investigator trying to help his campaign and get publicity for it? Or, he is ferreting out crime. I am not so sure there is crime to ferret out here. What is needed is an independent outside investigation for the public to have confidence in it, under the circumstances. https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/michigan-ag-has-police-seize-evidence-msu-over-nassar-scandal-n844331
Title: Re: OT - Nassar
Post by: ELA on February 03, 2018, 01:48:33 PM
Wasn't that the issue in the Duke lacrosse scandal too?  I seem to recall something about the political ambitions of the DA there.
Title: Re: OT - Nassar
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on February 03, 2018, 02:31:47 PM
Heh, Nancy Grace et al were just relentless with the Duke Lacrosse case. Nonstop, for like six months. Then when it all turned out to be BS, they quietly moved onto the next hot button topic without so much as an apology. 
Title: Re: OT - Nassar
Post by: 847badgerfan on February 03, 2018, 02:41:54 PM
Heh, Nancy Grace et al were just relentless with the Duke Lacrosse case. Nonstop, for like six months. Then when it all turned out to be BS, they quietly moved onto the next hot button topic without so much as an apology.
I have no use for that woman.
Title: Re: OT - Nassar
Post by: ELA on February 03, 2018, 03:36:34 PM
Just looking at the Nassar coverage it's nuts how obviously biased all of even the mainstream media is.

CBS focuses more on the Olympic side, as does FOX, who is more and more in bed with MSU and the Big Ten.

While NBC, with their Olympic coverage starting next week, and ABC, and their ties to ESPN, has covered the MSU side more.
Title: Re: OT - Nassar
Post by: ELA on February 03, 2018, 03:39:48 PM
Just looking at the Nassar coverage it's nuts how obviously biased all of even the mainstream media is.

CBS focuses more on the Olympic side, as does FOX, who is more and more in bed with MSU and the Big Ten.

While NBC, with their Olympic coverage starting next week, and ABC, and their ties to ESPN, has covered the MSU side more.
And I'm not diving into political biases, nor am I interested in going there, there's another board for that, I just mean the other business interests of all of these media conglomerates.
Title: Re: OT - Nassar
Post by: PSUinNC on February 09, 2018, 10:51:11 AM
Heh, Nancy Grace et al were just relentless with the Duke Lacrosse case. Nonstop, for like six months. Then when it all turned out to be BS, they quietly moved onto the next hot button topic without so much as an apology.
Al Shapton, quite literally, stood on a podium in front of the Durham Co courthouse with his arm around the alleged 'victim' and destroyed those boys.  
He certainly never came back to apologize, even privately, after it was all over.  
Title: Re: OT - Nassar
Post by: PSUinNC on February 09, 2018, 10:52:11 AM
And I'm not diving into political biases, nor am I interested in going there, there's another board for that, I just mean the other business interests of all of these media conglomerates.
Said this a few pages ago, that the media is driving this narrative completely.  
Title: Re: OT - Nassar
Post by: PSUinNC on February 09, 2018, 10:53:32 AM
So, basically, the two situations are not analogous and Michigan State University is in the clear of being complicit with what Larry Nassar was doing?
Bumping this b/c I never got an answer from SuperMario.  
Title: MSU to pay half a Billion (with a "B") to settle Larry Nassar victim cases
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on May 16, 2018, 04:12:27 PM
I do not mean to say that the victims do not deserve it, given what happened to them, but WOW, that is a lot of coin.  

https://www.cnn.com/2018/05/16/us/larry-nassar-michigan-state-settlement/index.html
Title: Re: OT - Nassar
Post by: CatsbyAZ on May 16, 2018, 04:15:38 PM
$$$ FIVE HUNDRED MILLION $$$



https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2018/05/16/us/larry-nassar-michigan-state-settlement/index.html
Title: Re: MSU to pay half a Billion (with a "B") to settle Larry Nassar victim cases
Post by: ELA on May 16, 2018, 04:38:38 PM
That's actually less than half of what was being speculated
Title: Re: OT - Nassar
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on May 16, 2018, 04:46:25 PM
That's actually less than half of what was being speculated
Thanks for merging.  I didn't see this and couldn't find the old thread.  I guess I forgot it was titled "Nassar".  
Title: Re: OT - Nassar
Post by: Hawkinole on May 17, 2018, 01:36:24 AM
If equally divided, that would be over $1M per victim, and the average victim would clear at least $1M after attorney's fees. And, the attorneys didn't have to do much discovery, or try their case.
Michigan State really wants to put this behind them. But, liability is probably not limited to MSU. Reviewing the article it appears the victims preserved their right to pursue other defendants, rather than giving MSU the right to pursue contribution claims against other potential defendants, but then I am not sure a news writer would understand litigation and liability sufficiently to parse that out and write about it.
Title: Re: OT - Nassar
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on May 17, 2018, 11:19:22 AM
If equally divided, that would be over $1M per victim, and the average victim would clear at least $1M after attorney's fees. And, the attorneys didn't have to do much discovery, or try their case.
Michigan State really wants to put this behind them. But, liability is probably not limited to MSU. Reviewing the article it appears the victims preserved their right to pursue other defendants, rather than giving MSU the right to pursue contribution claims against other potential defendants, but then I am not sure a news writer would understand litigation and liability sufficiently to parse that out and write about it.
I agree that the reporter likely wouldn't know enough to write about it, but what you are saying makes sense.  Even if there were other, collectible defendants that MSU could go after they likely wouldn't want the bad press of never-ending lawsuits against other defendants anyway so giving away that right in the settlement would have been a logical move for MSU.  
I think the fund for other potential victims was probably pushed for by MSU for the same reason, it insulates MSU from further litigation.  If a new victim steps forward tomorrow, instead of suing MSU they just make a claim to the fund.  That protects MSU from further bad press because a new victim suing MSU would lead to another headline naming MSU but a new victim making a claim to the fund probably results in no coverage at all.  
Title: Re: OT - Nassar
Post by: ELA on May 17, 2018, 02:21:31 PM
I thought I read somewhere that it also won't be equal, but the judge will determine the distribution.  I can't imagine how one would go about weighing the harm caused to each on a scale, over that many victims.
Title: Re: OT - Nassar
Post by: OrangeAfroMan on May 18, 2018, 12:05:23 AM
Heh, Nancy Grace et al were just relentless with the Duke Lacrosse case. Nonstop, for like six months. Then when it all turned out to be BS, they quietly moved onto the next hot button topic without so much as an apology.
They're definitely worse, but those types compare almost exactly with the sports talking heads making predictions that never get reviewed or checked back on.  They just go on forward, never looking back.
I guess that's an easy way to make sure you have plenty of "experts" to trot out there day after day, huh?  We're all experts if we're never held accountable.
Title: Re: OT - Nassar
Post by: OrangeAfroMan on May 18, 2018, 12:06:26 AM
I thought I read somewhere that it also won't be equal, but the judge will determine the distribution.  I can't imagine how one would go about weighing the harm caused to each on a scale, over that many victims.
Well you were only anally raped, and that's less horrific than multiple vaginal probings, so you get 83% of what she got......
no.
Title: Re: OT - Nassar
Post by: Hawkinole on May 18, 2018, 12:11:03 AM
ELA, and Medina, You each make good points.
Very wise on MSU's part to have a $75M fund for victims who have not stepped forward. I can't speak for women, but I would think I would not want my very private business published as this was for those who attended the sentencing hearings, and it would make sense that others stood back. Stepping forward, if you are interested in compensation might have appeared the wise thing to do. But this settlement probably does not penalize those who desire privacy.
Sometimes in settlements like this (for instance the 9/11/2001 fund) a special master is appointed to determine a fair settlement for each person. It is a difficult task, but I think the special master cannot let that weigh him down, because the process can be streamlined compared to a trial.
Title: Re: OT - Nassar
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on May 18, 2018, 10:26:11 AM

Next up, Cal Berkeley 

:57:

https://www.eastbaytimes.com/2018/05/17/claims-of-sexual-abuse-from-former-cal-student-athletes-substantiated/

After a months-long investigation sparked by a star basketball player’s allegations of sexual assault, UC-Berkeley has fired a longtime official in its athletic department for conduct involving at least seven women athletes, bringing the university’s long struggles with sexual harassment into the #metoo era.
Mohamed Muqtar, 61, who served as assistant director of student services, was let go May 11, a story first reported by ESPN. It is not clear when the university was first informed of claims against him; ESPN reported that a former Cal instructor said she had twice in the past raised concerns with the athletic department after hearing from female athletes but was told nothing could be done unless the athletes themselves came forward.
Title: Re: OT - Nassar
Post by: ELA on August 23, 2018, 11:34:45 AM
Former gymnastics coach Kathy Klages, who told her team to not only lie, but show vocal support for Nassar, has been charged with 2 counts of lying to an officer, one a felony, one a misdemeanor, punishable by up to 6 years in jail.
Title: Re: OT - Nassar
Post by: Entropy on August 23, 2018, 11:55:58 AM
I have no use for that woman.
you said it in a much more compassionate way than I would have stated it...
Title: Re: OT - Nassar
Post by: Anonymous Coward on August 23, 2018, 12:19:53 PM
Former gymnastics coach Kathy Klages, who told her team to not only lie, but show vocal support for Nassar, has been charged with 2 counts of lying to an officer, one a felony, one a misdemeanor, punishable by up to 6 years in jail.
Six years doesn't sound like much justice for the victims but it's a start.
Title: Re: OT - Nassar
Post by: Anonymous Coward on August 23, 2018, 12:21:05 PM
Also: I wasn't aware of this thread. Sorry for spoiling the MSU preseason thread with Nassar/Engler/BoT disappointments.
Title: Re: OT - Nassar
Post by: FearlessF on August 23, 2018, 12:37:27 PM
Six years doesn't sound like much justice for the victims but it's a start.
probably a year of probation
Title: Re: OT - Nassar
Post by: ELA on August 24, 2018, 01:40:17 PM
Sigh. It's a small story but reminds us how openness and healing were never even on Engler's or the BoT's radar of interests.

https://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/2018/08/15/msu-alumni-mag-focuses-positives/987621002/
State News (MSU student paper) obtained and published a today a copy of the version that Engler killed.  Good on a bunch of 20 year olds being real journalists.  Too bad that they most likely won't get jobs in the industry, and if they do, they will be discouraged from doing things like this in favor MOAR HOT TAKES!
Title: Re: OT - Nassar
Post by: ELA on August 30, 2018, 11:30:34 AM
FWIW, the NCAA completed its probe today for both (i) Nassar; and (ii) the ESPN article involving handling of allegations against football and basketball players, and found no NCAA violations in either case.  Not that I really expected much differently after they indirectly admitted they shouldn't have gone down that road with Penn State.
Title: Re: OT - Nassar
Post by: Anonymous Coward on August 30, 2018, 12:26:58 PM
Aside from Title IX malfeasance: Just as with PSU and football, I'd argue that violations for gymnastics competitive advantage would have been legitimate (hiding an environment dangerous to the students they protect because being open would be bad for the AD and relevant sports). But that was always impossible on precedent because the NCAA didn't go after PSU for competitive advantage but for coach hero worship ... which isn't within a mile of the rule book and inevitably had to be repealed.
Title: Re: OT - Nassar
Post by: ELA on August 30, 2018, 12:31:06 PM
I think there was a definite competitive advantage to what Klages did, there was no other explanation for it.  I have to imagine having the USA Gymnastics doctor working with the team like that was certainly a selling point to recruits, not that MSU gymnastics was any good under her.  But it's not like they had a long standing relationship, where they were friends and willing to suspend belief.
Title: Re: OT - Nassar
Post by: rolltidefan on August 30, 2018, 12:33:23 PM
Aside from Title IX malfeasance: Just as with PSU and football, I'd argue that violations for gymnastics competitive advantage would have been legitimate (hiding an environment dangerous to the students they protect because being open would be bad for the AD and relevant sports). But that was always impossible on precedent because the NCAA didn't go after PSU for competitive advantage but for coach hero worship ... which isn't within a mile of the rule book and inevitably had to be repealed.
i agree with this.
Title: Re: OT - Nassar
Post by: ELA on August 30, 2018, 02:16:48 PM
Also worth noting that of the three investigations (NCAA, AG, Title IX), this was always the most likely to go nowhere.
Title: Re: OT - Nassar
Post by: Anonymous Coward on August 30, 2018, 02:28:53 PM
Absolutely. Though Engler has done plenty to obstruct the AG as well.
Title: Re: OT - Nassar
Post by: Anonymous Coward on January 30, 2019, 06:34:55 PM
The ongoing story has added more serious news.

On Jan 16, MSU's interim president, John Engler, resigned. He was under threat of being fired after Englering one time too many. This time he spoke of Nassar victims relishing the "spotlight" ("still enjoying that moment at times, you know, the awards and recognition"). What was different was that he made that mistake after the November elections  reconstituted the BoT.

Link (https://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/college/ct-spt-michigan-state-john-engle-larry-nassar-20190116-story.html)

Now, the US Department of Education is reporting that MSU has serially violated the Clery Act, systematically underreported crimes and demonstrated a "lack of institutional control." Also that they exhibited "lack of administrative capability," an impairment that the report noted was "one of the most serious findings that can result from a campus safety program review."

Link (http://www.espn.com/espn/story/_/id/25885611/us-department-education-cites-michigan-state-university-clery-act-violations-espn-lines)

Key excerpt: As a result of the findings in the report, the university's application for re-certification to receive federal financial aid is on hold; the university is currently participating in the program on a month-to-month basis.
Title: Re: OT - Nassar
Post by: ELA on January 30, 2019, 08:02:21 PM
I pointed this out long ago.  This was a sports issue if you chose to only look at athletics.  But if you looked at any singular department at MSU you would find the same problems, because it was a massive University wide issue.  60 Minutes reported on it like three years ago, but nobody outside of MSU cared until you attached sports rivalries to it.  But it's a major problem.  It is mildly humorous that ESPN is reporting it, but I'm surprised it didn't get wider coverage.  Again, because sadly nobody cares about this sort of thing if it doesn't impact their sports team, or girls on a stand are giving salacious details.  Engler was the right guy to deal with the political fallout, but was an absolute PR disaster.  I'm guessing the final hire will probably be the exact opposite of that, and I'm not sure what that means for the future of the university.
Title: Re: OT - Nassar
Post by: 847badgerfan on January 30, 2019, 09:12:27 PM
Is there any danger with accreditation here??
Title: Re: OT - Nassar
Post by: MarqHusker on January 30, 2019, 09:31:08 PM
Well said ELA.   This was all under various noses, much like other bad acts which are known but we look the other way or don't notice because reasons, or it isn't a chip to play at a particular time or not ripe for hobby horsing.
Title: Re: OT - Nassar
Post by: CatsbyAZ on January 31, 2019, 04:35:20 AM
OT: Not to bring You-know-who into this, but if we’re going to talk about a lack of media coverage, I honestly think all the media coverage is so focused on one guy and his Twitter account that it completely sucks the air out of the room on stories that deserve much more coverage. The Michigan St scandal, El Chapos trial, the collapse of Venezuela. And even when other events get coverage, such as the Kashogi murder, it’s first and foremost covered in context of a reactionary media obsession with You-know-who and his latest Tweets. 
Title: Re: OT - Nassar
Post by: MarqHusker on January 31, 2019, 08:41:50 AM
Very true.   
Title: Re: OT - Nassar
Post by: Anonymous Coward on January 31, 2019, 08:46:36 AM
Is there any danger with accreditation here??
Maybe but so far we've only heard about the FAFSA and federal funding risks.
Title: Re: OT - Nassar
Post by: Anonymous Coward on January 31, 2019, 10:49:15 AM
It is mildly humorous that ESPN is reporting it, but I'm surprised it didn't get wider coverage.
It's definitely unusual for a sports outlet to break stories like this, but given recent events, it's also predictable. Not because of some "ESPN always had it out for us" conspiracy but as an inevitable outcome of MSU stonewalling (and ultimately failing in court) to squash so many ESPN FOIA requests. That, and MSU trying to sue ESPN (only to have it dismissed), was the kind of strange antagonism that would inevitably lead to more ESPN distrust, attention, FOIAs, and investigations. Organizations who act strange and guilty are always paid that kind of attention. Making it super normal for ESPN to get this story first because it got the FOIA first. 

The moral is obvious: Don't serially make poor decisions; negative attention begets negative attention. PR matters.

Anyway: My guess is that other outlets, starting with small local beats, will repeat the report.
Title: Re: OT - Nassar
Post by: ELA on January 31, 2019, 01:42:16 PM
It's definitely unusual for a sports outlet to break stories like this, but given recent events, it's also predictable. Not because of some "ESPN always had it out for us" conspiracy but as an inevitable outcome of MSU stonewalling (and ultimately failing in court) to squash so many ESPN FOIA requests. That, and MSU trying to sue ESPN (only to have it dismissed), was the kind of strange antagonism that would inevitably lead to more ESPN distrust, attention, FOIAs, and investigations. Organizations who act strange and guilty are always paid that kind of attention. Making it super normal for ESPN to get this story first because it got the FOIA first.

The moral is obvious: Don't serially make poor decisions; negative attention begets negative attention. PR matters.

Anyway: My guess is that other outlets, starting with small local beats, will repeat the report.
I could be wrong, but I believe MSU released the report themselves yesterday, and nobody but ESPN picked it up
Title: Re: OT - Nassar
Post by: ELA on January 31, 2019, 07:07:31 PM
This is positive, now if Ferguson would just resign, we'd really have something

https://twitter.com/DianneByrum/status/1090737403059417093?s=19
Title: Re: OT - Nassar
Post by: CatsbyAZ on January 31, 2019, 07:47:40 PM
I could be wrong, but I believe MSU released the report themselves yesterday, and nobody but ESPN picked it up
...because, again, everybody else is spending the 24 hour news cycle obsessing over one guy and his twitter account.
Title: Re: OT - Nassar
Post by: 847badgerfan on January 31, 2019, 07:59:11 PM
...because, again, everybody else is spending the 24 hour news cycle obsessing over one guy and his twitter account.
Don't forget the Polar Vortex from HELL!!!
Title: Re: OT - Nassar
Post by: Anonymous Coward on January 31, 2019, 08:23:56 PM
I could be wrong, but I believe MSU released the report themselves yesterday, and nobody but ESPN picked it up
That wasn't my understanding, but even if true it doesn't change the fact that MSU's suspicious aggression against ESPN's FOIAs inevitably kept ESPN poised for all developments related to stories of abuse in EL.
So either way, this story would come from the sports network. It's a self-inflicted continuation of bad PR: MSU hoist by its own petard.
Title: Re: OT - Nassar
Post by: Anonymous Coward on January 31, 2019, 08:25:54 PM
This is positive, now if Ferguson would just resign, we'd really have something

https://twitter.com/DianneByrum/status/1090737403059417093?s=19
Yeah that's a big deal. One of the healthiest signals in some time.