All Time Best Numbers (uPDATED)

[Kris61]

I'm a stats guy.  I'm aware Elway was thought of as a good runner, but he had negative rushing yardage every year in college (sacks).  Guys like Drew Brees even had a 500-yard rushing season - they took that skill and made it a positive that could be measured.  

Just as Raghib Ismail may not belong at #25, I definitely have a halo effect for him EVEN WHILE KNOWING HE ONLY SCORED 15 CAREER TDs, I just feel you have a similar effect with Elway.  I don't doubt for a minute that the consensus at the time was that he was an all-world great player, both ability and production-wise.  

But Wuerffel has better Heisman/awards data AND better passing data (both rate and percentage).  For me, that's it - case closed.  

Along the same lines, I don't think Randy Moss should stay on the list.  He had 2 huge years at a G5-type school.  He was good enough to play at ND or FSU, but he screwed up and ended up at Marshall.  So his highlights are vs Army and Ball State instead of Michigan and Miami.  His NFL HOF exploits shall not be taken into account, and his college production takes a hit due to the schedule he faced.


Disagree on Moss.  His pedigree preceded him at Marshall.   He wasn’t a guy no one heard of who just showed up at a small school and started putting up huge numbers like Troy Edwards. Nobody was wondering how this guy slipped through the fingers of power schools.  Lou Holtz said Moss was the best high school player he’s ever seen.  

What he did at Marshall just confirmed what people already believed about him.  He has the pedigree, stats, and hardware (Biletnikoff, Heisman finalist).  

I mean, if there are better or similar options at that number then they should be considered, including Jerry Rice.  The reason I went with Moss is that I think coming out of college he was considered a better WR than Rice.  I think there were questions if Rice was a product of his competition.  The only questions surrounding Moss were his character.

[OrangeAfroMan]

I put Keith Jackson, TE, Oklahoma there, but Moss works, too.

I'll never forget watching a random-ass Nebraska vs LA Tech game in which Edwards caught 400 yds worth of passes.  It was pure video game style.  

[Kris61]

Honestly, I think this accounts for your view of Elway. You knew him as a pro, not a collegiate player. Oddly, I followed very little of his pro career (though obviously I was aware of it). But he was really turning heads when he was in college.
That said, if he wore 15 or some other an number that is impacted with tons of the college greats, I wouldn't put him on the list. I just never thought of Wuerfful as the same kind of dominating as a guy like Manning, or Tebow, or Frazier (Wuerfful was obviously a better passer than those last two).  As another reference, if Brady and Wuerfful had worn the same number, I wouldn't have Brady in the discussion, even though he may be the NFL's GOAT.

At the risk of pissing off our Nebraska fans I gotta say something regarding Frazier.  He should not be mentioned with guys like Manning and Tebow whose production was through the roof.  Every time I see Tommie Frazier listed among the best college players who ever played I cringe a little.
He was a terrific player, no doubt.  But I find it funny you sort of knock Wuerffel because of the team he had around him despite the fact he also had stats to validate him.  Frazier doesn’t.  Pat White’s rushing and passing numbers dwarf Frazier’s.  Eric Crouch was a much more productive QB at Nebraska than Frazier.
I get Frazier had some injuries that slowed him down and he was considered a master of the option and sometimes that meant handing if off to fullbacks or pitching to I backs and giving up stats but c’mon.
Frazier’s reputation benefits more from the team that was around him than just about any player I can remember.  

[Kris61]

I put Keith Jackson, TE, Oklahoma there, but Moss works, too.

I'll never forget watching a random-ass Nebraska vs LA Tech game in which Edwards caught 400 yds worth of passes.  It was pure video game style.  

See, I sort of think we needed to see Jackson’s pro career to validate him a little too.  While his YPC was amazing a lot of that was OU would run option 40 times a game and lull safeties and linebackers to sleep and then pop Jackson behind them.
With him accumulating so few catches I’m not sure without his pro career if his college career is remembered so fondly.

[MarqHusker]

I put Keith Jackson, TE, Oklahoma there, but Moss works, too.

I'll never forget watching a random-ass Nebraska vs LA Tech game in which Edwards caught 400 yds worth of passes.  It was pure video game style.  

I was at that game. Solich HC debut. Nebraska won by 30.  Rattay threw for 550+.  Edwards had 21 for 405 and oh by the way ran back a punt for td.  Also dropped a bomb for a td.  Edwards wore #16.  He looked so exhausted after the game.  It was a hot humid late afternoon August kickoff.
And Keith Jackson owns #88.

[OrangeAfroMan]

At the risk of pissing off our Nebraska fans I gotta say something regarding Frazier.  He should not be mentioned with guys like Manning and Tebow whose production was through the roof.  Every time I see Tommie Frazier listed among the best college players who ever played I cringe a little.
He was a terrific player, no doubt.  But I find it funny you sort of knock Wuerffel because of the team he had around him despite the fact he also had stats to validate him.  Frazier doesn’t.  Pat White’s rushing and passing numbers dwarf Frazier’s.  Eric Crouch was a much more productive QB at Nebraska than Frazier.
I get Frazier had some injuries that slowed him down and he was considered a master of the option and sometimes that meant handing if off to fullbacks or pitching to I backs and giving up stats but c’mon.
Frazier’s reputation benefits more from the team that was around him than just about any player I can remember.  

Well for 25 years, I was assured he was an all-time great, mainly because he was such a winner.  Yet today I learned that that's only a negative when rating a QB.  If Nebraska stunk and Frazier led them to a 5-6 record, then he'd truly be great.

Nebraska beat #10 KSU with a walk-on 3rd string QB and their backup helped them win 8 games.  Undefeated without Frazier....yet being a winner is his biggest selling point?

So here I sit, confused.

[SFBadger96]

At the risk of pissing off our Nebraska fans I gotta say something regarding Frazier.  He should not be mentioned with guys like Manning and Tebow whose production was through the roof.  Every time I see Tommie Frazier listed among the best college players who ever played I cringe a little.
He was a terrific player, no doubt.  But I find it funny you sort of knock Wuerffel because of the team he had around him despite the fact he also had stats to validate him.  Frazier doesn’t.  Pat White’s rushing and passing numbers dwarf Frazier’s.  Eric Crouch was a much more productive QB at Nebraska than Frazier.
I get Frazier had some injuries that slowed him down and he was considered a master of the option and sometimes that meant handing if off to fullbacks or pitching to I backs and giving up stats but c’mon.
Frazier’s reputation benefits more from the team that was around him than just about any player I can remember.  

That's fair. 

[FearlessF]

not gonna piss off this Husker fan knocking Tommie Frazier, but simply looking at production numbers is no more telling than simply looking at championships won or the strength of the team around Frazier

Weighing the entire career of Frazier, it's worth mentioning that he took over the leadership of the team as a freshman and elevated that 92 team.  It wasn't just the 94 and 95 championship teams that he is known for.

just an example:

In a big game in 92, #8 Nebraska hosted #8 Colorado.  Frazier split time with starting QB Mike Grant.

Colorado was ranked in the top 20 for all defensive categories, yet NU dominated the game and held the ball nearly 43 minutes. The win ended CU's 25-game unbeaten conference streak and ended NU's eight-game winless streak vs. Top 20 teams.

NU's frosh QB, Tommie Frazier, rushed for 86 yards, and completed two touchdown passes. 

As a frosh Tommie had 10 TD passes vs 1 INT.

the offense he ran really didn't give the opportunities for high production numbers, but w/o Frazier the offense just didn't perform as well.

Thinking about QB production numbers in 1992, how about Charlie Ward #17

[FearlessF]

and I agree that is fair

other players that may have benefitted from the team around them might be a RB such as Ron Dayne - Ron might have had a pretty decent O-line and an offense suited specifically for him to rack up production numbers.

[Kris61]

I get all that with Frazier and think there is merit to it.  I think Frazier should be remembered as an excellent college player but not one of the best of all time like he is frequently mentioned.

[SFBadger96]

and I agree that is fair

other players that may have benefitted from the team around them might be a RB such as Ron Dayne - Ron might have had a pretty decent O-line and an offense suited specifically for him to rack up production numbers.

I agree--though we was unquestionably a beast as a college running back.

I don't remember Dayne's time as well as I was overseas for some of it, and cable TV options weren't what they are now. The year the Badgers' backfield was Clay, Ball, and White I remember marveling at the lanes they had to run through. All three were good college running backs, but none was an all-timer (despite Ball's TD records).
It's hard to balance how good a player was against how good a team it was that was around him. In any team sport the two are inextricably linked. Good players make teams better; good teams make players better. But sometimes no matter how good a player is, they can't make the team any better than it is; and sometimes no matter how good a team is, they can't make the individual player any better. There's no science to figuring out which is which, so people will continue to disagree about such things as who the best college QB to wear #7 was. 
We can agree it wasn't Jimmy Clausen--or even John Stocco. 

[FearlessF]

I get all that with Frazier and think there is merit to it.  I think Frazier should be remembered as an excellent college player but not one of the best of all time like he is frequently mentioned.

I guess it depends on your opinion. and your criteria.  Is a QB with a laser arm that can't run a better college football player than a QB that can't throw well but can run?  Is the better athlete a better football player or the better leader or the more intelligent.
I think most think of Frazier as one of the best option/running QBs, but Oklahoma had QBs that were faster and shiftier in the open field.
Obviously many folks put not only winning, but winning championships high on their list of criteria.  With Tommie's 2 national titles, 3 MVP performances in National championships bowl games and a 4 year record of 45-4, some folks are going to give him credit as a great player.
I'm not saying that it's right or wrong, it's just an opinion.
In my opinion the hypesman trophy should be awarded to a Linebacker, running back, safety, Defensive End or Tight End instead of a QB.
The best football players are guys that can Hit and take hits, block, tackle, run, and jump.  Not fragile QBs with a great arm.
Tebow, Frazier, Newton, Charlie Ward, Frost, Crouch, and many others as college QBs are very good examples of football players.  IMO

[Kris61]

I guess it depends on your opinion. and your criteria.  Is a QB with a laser arm that can't run a better college football player than a QB that can't throw well but can run?  Is the better athlete a better football player or the better leader or the more intelligent.
I think most think of Frazier as one of the best option/running QBs, but Oklahoma had QBs that were faster and shiftier in the open field.
Obviously many folks put not only winning, but winning championships high on their list of criteria.  With Tommie's 2 national titles, 3 MVP performances in National championships bowl games and a 4 year record of 45-4, some folks are going to give him credit as a great player.
I'm not saying that it's right or wrong, it's just an opinion.
In my opinion the hypesman trophy should be awarded to a Linebacker, running back, safety, Defensive End or Tight End instead of a QB.
The best football players are guys that can Hit and take hits, block, tackle, run, and jump.  Not fragile QBs with a great arm.
Tebow, Frazier, Newton, Charlie Ward, Frost, Crouch, and many others as college QBs are very good examples of football players.  IMO

You know how QB’s get too much credit when a team is really good?  I think Frazier gets an inordinate amount of credit even by QB standards.  Frazier and Tebow shouldn’t even be a debate.  It’s Tebow.  That’s a one second discusssion.
Idk.  I’ve seen and heard stuff over the years with Frazier that seems crazy to me.  He was the 2nd Team QB on SI’s Team of the Century.  I mean, WTF?  CFN named him the 33rd best college football player ever in 2004.
When I compare my memory of watching him play with the numbers he put up those kind of accolades don’t make sense to me.  He was good, but not THAT good.

[Kris60]

I'm gonna backtrack a little on my criticism of Frazier because I realize that I have largely been comparing his numbers to dual threat QB's that came along during this era of HUNH, spread, point a minute offenses and there is really no comparison.

When Frazier finished his career in 1995 his career numbers were actually considered pretty good for a dual threat guy who didn't throw it a lot.  Only six years earlier when Major Harris finished his career at WVU he became only the second player ever to finish with 5000 career passing yards and 2000 yards rushing.  Those numbers seem quaint now and so do Frazier's.

The numbers that guys like Tebow, Watson, Newton, Prescott, Barrett, and Braxton Miller put up blow away guys from the 80s and 90s.

When Frazier was named the 2nd team All Century QB in 1999 it probably made a lot more sense then than it does now.