CFB51 College Football Fan Community
The Power Five => Big Ten => Topic started by: Cincydawg on June 08, 2018, 04:08:01 PM
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What is the best player number at any position? The number with the most top players all time, or say back to oh 1960?
The only number I can think of that had some top players is 34.
What about at QB? We do not seem to focus on their numbers as much.
88?
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7 and 12 seem to be historic QB numbers.
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I'd say #15 for QBs
Tebow and Frazier
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I'll throw out #20
Earl Campbell
Billy Sims
Mike Garrett
Johnny Rogers
Billy Cannon
and for the Michigan fans
Mike Hart
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College takes a lot of thought because the numbers are all over the place. A guy wearing number 5 can play any position on defense or be a QB, WR, or RB on offense. There are also a lot of great players from the past that I have no idea what number they were in college.
In the NFL #12 is an iconic number for QB’s. Brady, Bradshaw, Staubach, Griese, Namath, Rodgers, Stabler, etc. That’s 16 Super Bowl wins right there. And that doesn’t include Jim Kelly and his 4 appearances and HOF credentials.
There was a period in the NFL record books where the top 3 all time NFL rushers all wore #32. Jim Brown, Franco Harris, OJ Simpson.
Idk. Tough question. That’s a pretty good list of college players wearing number 20.
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Who was the best college players to wear Number One?
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Sports Illustrated had this opinion............
ANTHONY CARTER, WR, MICHIGAN (1979-82)
The most exciting football player I've ever seen. That's how Michigan coach Lloyd Carr, then an assistant for Bo Schembechler, described the three-time All-America wideout. Carter was a touchdown-making machine for the Wolverines (he had 36 in his career) and finished in the top 10 in the Heisman Trophy voting his final three seasons. — Runner-up: Ernie Nevers, FB, Stanford (1923-25)
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I've found it hard enough to do a numerical all-star team for one school, much less a national team.
The biggest problem is when you have, say, a WR and a safety who both wear #2 and were all-time greats. The RB might be better than the safety was, but if you have several great other WRs to choose from and not another great safety, you'd apply the #2 distinction to the safety, despite him being slightly not as great as the WR.
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I'd start out with an all-star team, then sub out same-number players one by one.
That Athlon all-time team we had a thread about a few years ago:
QB - Tebow 15
RB - Walker 34
RB - Sanders 21
WR - Moss 88 Rodgers 20
WR - Fitzgerald 1
TE - Jackson 88
OL - Hannah 73
OL - Ogden 79
OL - Pace 75
OL - Munoz 77
OL - Rimington 50
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DE - Green 99
DE - White 94
DT - LR Selmon 93
DT - Suh 93 Emtman 90
LB - Thomas 55
LB - Taylor 98
LB - Bosworth 44
CB - Woodson 2 Newman 4
CB - Sanders 2
S - Lott 42
S - Easley 5
This is imperfect and not my choices, but it's a starting point. So we have 3 numerical duplicates and have to change out a WR/TE, DT, and CB. I'll go ahead and keep Selmon and Sanders, so while Suh and Woodson were great, they're off the team and I'll have to pick the next best guy. As for Moss and Jackson, I'm confident the next best WR is "better" than the next best TE, so I'll keep Jackson and look for the next best WR.
So it's doable, it's just a sonofabitch. Lots of google image searches, because collegefootballreference doesn't have jersey numbers going back further than the mid 2000s.
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QB - Tebow 15 Frazier 15
RB - Walker 34
RB - Sanders 21
WR - Moss 88 Rodgers 20
WR - Fitzgerald 1
TE - Jackson 88
OL - Hannah 73
OL - Ogden 79
OL - Pace 75 Dean Steinkuhler - 71 (gotta have a guard)
OL - Munoz 77
OL - Rimington 50
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DE - Green 99
DE - White 94
DT - LR Selmon 93
DT - Suh 93 Emtman 90
LB - Thomas 55
LB - Taylor 98
LB - Bosworth 44
CB - Woodson 2 Newman 4 (agreed)
CB - Sanders 2
S - Lott 42
S - Easley 5 Roy Williams - 38
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You can have a guard, but don't take out the best tackle to do it, lol.
With Suh back in, you now have 2 players with the same number again. ~??? You don't understand the goal, do you?
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easy fix, replace Lee Roy with Dewey #91
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You can have a guard, but don't take out the best tackle to do it, lol.
hah, did that for the Buck Nut fans here
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easy fix, replace Lee Roy with Dewey #91
Why don't you make your own all-time Big 8 team that you'll love so much?
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good idea!
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All-Time Numerical B10 Team:
QB - Barrett (OSU) 16
RB - Dayne (WIS) 33
RB - Griffin (OSU) 45
WR - Stubblefield (PU) 21
WR - Edwards (UM) 1
TE - Stratton (PU) 89
OL - Pace (OSU) 75
OL - Thomas (WIS) 72
OL - Parker (OSU) 62
OL - Long (UM) 77
C - Eslinger (MINN) 71
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DE - Smith (MSU) 35
DE - Bosa (OSU) 97
DT - Stillwagon (OSU) 68
DT - Gardner (ILL) 95
LB - Posluszny (PSU) 31
LB - Fitzgerald (NU) 51
LB - Cousineau (OSU) 36
CB - Woodson (UM) 2
CB - Brosky (ILL) 27
S - Tatum (OSU) 32
S - Leonhard (WIS) 18
-----------------------------
P - Roby (IOWA) 7
K - Nugent (OSU) 85
KR - Desmond Howard (UM) 21
PR - Tim Dwight (IOWA) 6
--------------------------------
Edit at your leisure.
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obviously, much less difficult than 1-99
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I wouldn't say easier, just quicker.
Everyone could pitch in with their school's best players and their numbers - that would make it easier. But that would require participation.
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Dick Butkus MLB, Illinois #50 (NO explanation necessary)
Alex Karras DT, Iowa #77 (Outland Award; 2nd in Heisman voting and a lineman; Webster's dad; Paper Lion)
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1-Larry Fitzgerald, WR, Pitt
2-Deion Sanders, CB, FSU
3-Carson Palmer, QB, USC
4-Champ Bailey, CB, Georgia
5-Reggie Bush, RB, USC Darren McFadden, RB, Arkansas
6-Baker Mayfield, QB, Oklahoma
7-Danny Wuerffel, QB, Florida
8-Marcus Mariota, QB, Oregon
9-Jim McMahon, QB, BYU
10-Derrick Brooks, LB, FSU
11-LaVar Arrington, LB, Penn St
12-Roger Staubach, QB, Navy
13-Dan Marino, QB, Pitt
14-Don Hutson, WR, Alabama
15-Tim Tebow, QB, Florida
16-Jim Plunkett, QB, Stanford
17-Charlie Ward, QB, FSU
18-Archie Manning, QB, Ole Miss
19-Eric Dickerson, RB, SMU
20-Earl Campbell, RB, Texas
21-Barry Sanders, RB, Oklahoma St
22-Doug Flutie, QB, Boston College
23-Leroy Keyes, RB, Purdue
24-Nile Kinnick, RB, Iowa
25-Melvin Gordon, RB, Wisconsin
26-Sean Taylor, S, Miami
27-Eddie George, RB, Ohio St
28-Marshall Faulk, RB, San Diego St
29-Rickey Dixon, S, Oklahoma
30-Mike Rozier, RB, Nebraska
31-Paul Posluszny, LB, Penn St
32-OJ Simpson, RB, USC
33-Ron Dayne, RB, Wisconsin
34-Herschel Walker, RB, Georgia
35-Alan Ameche, FB, Wisconsin
36-Chris Spielman, LB, Ohio St
37-Doak Walker, RB, SMU
38-George Rogers, RB, South Carolina
39-Curtis Enis, RB, Penn St
40-Howard Cassady, RB, Ohio St
41-Glenn Davis, RB, Army
42-Ronnie Lott, S, USC
43-Antonio Langham, CB, Alabama
44-Brian Bosworth, LB, Oklahoma
45-Archie Griffin, RB, Ohio St
46-Bob Ferguson, FB, Ohio St
47-David Pollock, DE, Georgia
48-Gale Sayers, RB, Kansas
49-Patrick Willis, LB, Ole Miss
50-Dick Butkus, C/LB, Illinois
51-Pat Fitzgerald, LB, Northwestern
52-Ray Lewis, LB, Miami
53-Randy Gradishar, LB, Ohio St....is half this list Buckeyes?!?
54-Lee Roy Jordan, LB, Alabama
55-Derrick Thomas, LB, Alabama
56-Michael Barrow, LB, Miami
57-Dwight Stevenson, C, Alabama
58-Rey Maualuga, LB, USC
59-Percy Snow, LB, Michigan St
60-Tommy Nobis, LB, Texas
61-Tom Brown, G, Minnesota
62-Jim Parker, T, Ohio St
63-Mike Singletary, LB, Baylor
64-Jim Lachey, G, Ohio St
65-
66-Will Shields, G, Nebraska
67-Russell Maryland, DT, Miami
68-Jim Stillwagon, MG, Ohio St
69-
70-
71-Merlin Olsen, DT, Utah St
72-Bronco Nagurski, FB/DT, Minnesota
73-John Hannah, T, Alabama
74-Tracy Rocker, DT, Auburn
75-Orlando Pace, OT, Ohio St
76-Warren Sapp, DT, Miami
77-Red Grange, RB, Illinois
78-Bruce Smith, DE, Virginia Tech
79-Bill Fralic, OT, Pitt
80-Eric Curry, DE, Alabama
81-Alan Page, DT, Notre Dame
82-Leon Hart, E, Notre Dame
83-Richard Wood, LB, USC
84-Corey Davis, WR, Western Michigan
85-Charles Young, TE, USC
86-Courtney Brown, DE, Penn St
87-Herman Moore, WR, Virginia
88-Keith Jackson, TE, Oklahoma
89-Ross Browner, DE, Notre Dame
90-Steve Emtman, DT, Washington
91-Dewey Selmon, DT, Oklahoma
92-Reggie White, DT, Tennessee
93-Lee Roy Selmon, DT, Oklahoma
94-Jared DeVries, DT, Iowa
95-Bubba Smith, DE, Michigan St
96-Cortez Kennedy, DT, Miami
97-Cornelius Bennett, LB, Alabama
98-Lawrence Taylor, LB, North Carolina
99-Hugh Green, DE, Pitt
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1-Anthony Carter
2-Deion Sanders
3-Joey Harrington
4-
5-Reggie Bush
6-Jerome Bettis
7-Danny Wuerffel
8-
9-
10-Derrick Brooks
11-
12-
13-
14-Eric Berry
15-Tim Tebow
16-Peyton Manning
17-
18-
19-Ike Hilliard
20-Bernie Kosar
21-Barry Sanders
22-Doug Flutie
23-
24-
25-Raghib Ismail
26-Rod Woodson
27-
28-Marshall Faulk
29-
30-
31-Paul Posluszny
32-OJ Simpson
33-Ron Dayne
34-Herschel Walker
35-Bubba Smith
36-
37-Shaun Alexander
38-
39-
40- Mike Alstott
41-
42-Ronnie Lott
43-
44-Brian Bosworth
45-Archie Griffin
46-
47-Michael Irvin
48-
49-
50-Dick Butkus
51-Brandon Spikes
52-
53-
54-
55-Marvin Jones
56-Michael Barrow
57-
58-
59-
60-
61-
62-Mike Singletary
63-
64-
65-
66-Will Shields
67-Russell Maryland
68-
69-
70-
71-
72-
73-
74-
75-Orlando Pace
76-Warren Sap
77-
78-
79-
80-
81-Tim Brown
82-
83-
84-
85-
86-
87-
88-Randy Moss
89-
90-
91-
92-
93-Lee Roy Sselmon
94-
95-
96-
97-
98-
99-
Off the cuff, unresearched, before I go to work, filling in some numbers off the top of my head.
8- Marcus Mariotta
9- Jim McMahon
11- Antoine Winfield (I loved this guy). Lavar Arrington if you prefer though.
12- Andrew Luck
13- Dan Marino
17- Charlie Ward?
18- Archie Manning
27- Irving Fryar
29- Curtis Martin
30- Mike Rozier
36- Chris Spielmann
43- Antonio Langham
52- Ray Lewis
70- Sam Huff (had to get a WVU guy in here).
77- Jake Long
78- Anthony Munoz (did he wear this in college?)
79- Bill Fralic
86- Courtney Brown? (Damn good in college).
90- Steve Emtman
93- Aundray Bruce (I think he wore this at Auburn).
96- Cortez Kennedy
What number did guys like Derrick Thomas and Cornelius Bennett wear at Alabama? I can’t remember.
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A few more.
4- Champ Bailey
97- Cornelius Bennett
98- Lawrence Taylor
99- Hugh Green
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4 Jamelle Holieway
5 Michael Crabtree (since some people want to wipe Bush off the books)
29 Rickey Dixon
40 Luke Kuechly
43 Terrell Farley
60 Tommy Nobis
71 Merlin Olsen
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See, this always happens - we get guys like Dan Marino and Curtis Martin on these COLLEGE lists, and it becomes an NFL list.
Yes, Marino and Martin were very good in college. But they made like one fringe All-American team for one year. Yes, they went on to have Hall of Fame NFL careers, but in this exercise, that is meaningless!
Perfect illustration: Look at 51 and 52.
Everybody knows Ray Lewis. HOF NFL LB. Great at Miami, small, fast, was an AA one year. But his college resume is dwarfed by a less-known LB in the same state: Brandon Spikes. Hell, even Takeo Spikes of Auburn is probably better known. But Brandon Spikes was a 3x AA at Florida. So if he and Ray Lewis had the same jersey number, for this exercise, Spikes should make the list.
Just for future reference. We have Marino and Martin on the list, and they'll stay on it, until they're replaced by someone better (college considerations only).
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To back up my point: Anthony Munoz doesn't belong on any all-time greats college football lists. He was hurt half the time and made zero all-american teams. This is a college list. No Tom Brady, no Joe Montana.
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Keep posting suggestions, and we'll keep the updated list as the first 1-99 that was my post. I changed a few and added a few old-timers.
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Kris, sorry, Sam Huff wore 75 at WVU. He ain't replacing Orlando Pace.
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Another NCAA > NFL self edit example: Michael Irvin had a very strong college career....but it doesn't come close to DE David Pollock's of UGA. Yes, he's now the talking head on ESPN Gameday and Irvin is an NFL HOFer, but that doesn't matter for this list.
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Bubba Smith is listed as #35 for some reason, he should be #95, which is open.
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Thank you. Alan Ameche slides into #35. Or should it be Doc Blanchard?
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Bubba Smith is listed as #35 for some reason, he should be #95, which is open.
To add more MSU...
I'd take Percy Snow over Derrick Rodgers for #59. ROdgers was 1st team AA as a LB. So was Snow, but Snow is one of 4 players in history to win both the Lombardi and the Butkus in the same year, and he was elected into the College Football Hall of Fame in 2013.
I'm assuming someone will trump him but since it's open, I'll submit Don Coleman for #78. He was MSU's first unanimous AA, and finished runner up for the Outland Trophy. Rumor is Bear Bryant told him the only reason he didn't win it was because he was black, and that Bryant would have integrated his team just to add him.
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To back up my point: Anthony Munoz doesn't belong on any all-time greats college football lists. He was hurt half the time and made zero all-american teams. This is a college list. No Tom Brady, no Joe Montana.
On that point, at least for the B1G conference list, it should be Drew Brees over JT Barrett. Barrett played on a better team, of course. But Brees was IMHO a better QB, and owns most of the all-time Big Ten records... In fact, the one that Barrett holds (touchdown passes) would be Brees' if he was a 4-year player. He only started from his Soph through Sr year.
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Here's some to vote on:
8 - Davey O'Brien
3 - Carson Palmer
10 - Vince Young (remember, career, not just one game, lol)
14 - Don Hutson (first productive WR, look it up)
23 - Leroy Keyes, RB, Purdue
24 - Kinnick
27 - Eddie George
28 - Adrian Peterson OR Anthony Davis, RB, USC
38 - George Rogers, RB, S.Carolina
43 - Terry Kinard, S, Clemson
44 - Jim Brown (remember, college only)
47 - Bennie Oosterbaan, E, Michigan
49 - Bob Chappuis, RB, Michigan
50 - Rimington
57 - Steve Kiner, LB, Tennesse OR Dwight Stevenson, C, Alabama
60 - Bednarik C/LB, Penn St
64 - Lachey, G, Ohio St
66 - George Gipp, RB, Notre Dame
71 - Tony Boselli
72 - Nagurski FB/DT, Minnesota OR Bob Lilly, DT, TCU
74 - Tracy Rocker, DT, Auburn OR John Hicks, T, Ohio St
77- Red Grange
78 - Bruce Smith, DT, VA Tech (college only)
82 - Ozzie Newsome, TE, Alabama
83 - Richard Wood, LB, USC
84 - Jerry Robinson, LB, UCLA
87 - Chad Hennings, DE, USAFA
92 - Tony Casillas, DT, Oklahoma
94 - Randy White, DT, Maryland
96 - Danny Stubbs, DE, Miami
98 - Tom Harmon, RB, Michigan
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Which of these (if any) should be included instead of who's there now?
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Jerry Rice wore 88 in college and I don’t think he replaces Randy Moss at that number. If that leaves 80 open then a name that pops to mind for me is Eric Curry. AA DE on Bama’s 92 National Title team. I’m just trying to think of guys without doing a lot of research.
Gino Toretta wore #13 in college if someone wants to replace Marino, although I personally wouldn’t.
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On that point, at least for the B1G conference list, it should be Drew Brees over JT Barrett. Barrett played on a better team, of course. But Brees was IMHO a better QB, and owns most of the all-time Big Ten records... In fact, the one that Barrett holds (touchdown passes) would be Brees' if he was a 4-year player. He only started from his Soph through Sr year.
You're entitled to your opinion, and Brees certainly leads in volume stats. Maybe Brees wins in the eye test, but for me, I'll take the more efficient QB (also with plenty of volume). I think you're description of Brees is misleading, though. He leads in attempts, completions, and yards. But that's it.
Brees vs Barrett
x comp
x att
comp% x
x yds
yds/att x <<<very important and overlooked
TD x
x INT (as in more)
Rating x <<<<by 20 pts
And let's not forget
Rush Yds x
Rush YPC x
Rush TD x
For me, and you can't go wrong with Brees, I'll take the more efficient passer with the much better TD:INT ratio, who can also run.
One was beloved and the other shat on most of his career, so there's that, too.
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Jerry Rice wore 88 in college and I don’t think he replaces Randy Moss at that number. If that leaves 80 open then a name that pops to mind for me is Eric Curry. AA DE on Bama’s 92 National Title team. I’m just trying to think of guys without doing a lot of research. Thank you.
Gino Toretta wore #13 in college if someone wants to replace Marino, although I personally wouldn’t.
How dare you.
I remember Curry & Copeland. Curry was bigger, but Copeland was better, imo. I think they both disappeared in the NFL.
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I think a pretty good argument could be made for Curtis Enis over Cunningham at #39.
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7 - Joe Theismann (Notre Dame, NOT a Heisman winner, but awfully good [edit re the post below, because I'm an idiot]) over Wuerffel. Or John Elway, Stanford (played on a crappy team, still received Heisman consideration).
16 - Jim Plunkett: an actual Heisman winner, beat out Theismann and Archie Manning; took Stanford to Rose Bowl victory over Ohio State. I know Peyton Manning is an all-time great, but again, college...Plunkett deserves consideration despite the natural recency bias and the way the QB position has changed.
But I'll put down my ND/Stanford homerism to bring up my Wisconsin homerism:
25 - Melvin Gordon
Speaking of running backs and Heisman Winners: Alan Ameche over Bubba Smith for 35?
Elroy Hirsch or Ed McCaffrey at 40?
Mike Webster at 51?
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7 - Joe Theismann (Notre Dame, Heisman winner) over Wuerffel. Or John Elway, Stanford (played on a crappy team, still received Heisman consideration).
16 - Jim Plunkett: an actual Heisman winner, beat out Theismann and Archie Manning; took Stanford to Rose Bowl victory over Ohio State. I know Peyton Manning is an all-time great, but again, college...Plunkett deserves consideration despite the natural recency bias and the way the QB position has changed.
But I'll put down my ND homerism to bring up my Wisconsin homerism:
25 - Melvin Gordon
Speaking of running backs and Heisman Winners: Alan Ameche over Bubba Smith for 35?
Elroy Hirsch or Ed McCaffrey at 40?
Mike Webster at 51?
Theismann didn’t win the Heisman.
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Heh--I even said so in my own post. Thought he had won it a different year, but sure enough, you're right.
Hate it when I'm dumb.
And I'm picking Elway at #7 anyway. Stanford needs some love on this list.
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See, this always happens - we get guys like Dan Marino and Curtis Martin on these COLLEGE lists, and it becomes an NFL list.
100% support this.
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Heh--I even said so in my own post. Thought he had won it a different year, but sure enough, you're right.
Hate it when I'm dumb.
And I'm picking Elway at #7 anyway. Stanford needs some love on this list.
I find it odd how most people most of the time use winning as the ultimate concern for QBs.....except when they don't. There is only one reason to choose Elway over someone like Wuerffel - NFL success. Their college resumes are a mismatch, sorry.
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Other possible Domers:
14 - Johnny Lattner (Heisman winner and two-time all-American).
32 - Johnny Lujack (Heisman winner, quarterback and defensive back, played on three MNC teams)
81 - An embarrassment of riches for the Irish, in addition to Tim Brown are Alan Page and George Connor (2-time all-American and Outland Trophy winner, whose Irish never lost, '46-'48). FWIW, Alan Page and George Connor are often considered among ND's top ten players ever, sometimes (often?) listed above Tim Brown.
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I find it odd how most people most of the time use winning as the ultimate concern for QBs.....except when they don't. There is only one reason to choose Elway over someone like Wuerffel - NFL success. Their college resumes are a mismatch, sorry.
Completely disagree. Nothing to do with NFL success. Elway was #2 in the Heisman voting in 1982 behind Herschel Walker despite playing on a losing football team. He was the best quarterback in the country on a crappy team.
Danny Wuerffel played on great Florida teams. Those teams made Wuerffel better. Elway's teams made him worse--and he was still the best QB in the country.
To use your own analogy, you're using Florida's winning to justify Wuerffel over a better quarterback on a team that sucked.
Some fun things to know about Elway's college career. In addition to being a consensus All-American his senior year, he won the Sammy Baugh trophy for best passer in the country, and, as noted, was #2 in the Heisman voting despite playing on a losing team. Recall that only Paul Hornung (with a little ND bias) has won a Heisman from a losing team. He was the 1980 and 1982 Pac-10 player of the year, despite playing on 6-5 and 5-6 teams, respectively. In case you're wondering who else played in the Pac-10 in 1980, this kid Marcus Allen (you may remember him from the '81 Heisman trophy) was in the backfield at USC--and Ronnie Lott played his last season at USC that year, too, before being the 49ers 1st round NFL pick (8th overall). Elway set Pac-10 records for passing yardage, passing touchdowns, and completions, and was #2 in completion percentage behind Heisman winner Jim Plunkett.
The year after Elway graduated, Stanford dropped from 5-6 to 1-10. The year after Wuerffel graduated, Florida dropped, too--from 12-1 to 10-2.
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I saw a post about Butkus upthread. #50 played offense and defense for the Illini but garnished most of his collegiate awards for playing center.
I normally don't care for wiki, but this is a solid entry:
College career[edit (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Dick_Butkus&action=edit§ion=2&editintro=Template:BLP_editintro)]
Butkus played center (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Center_(American_football)) and linebacker from 1962 through 1964 at the University of Illinois (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Illinois) for the Illinois Fighting Illini football (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illinois_Fighting_Illini_football) team. In his first year on the varsity team, he was named to the 1962 All-Big Ten Conference football team (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1962_All-Big_Ten_Conference_football_team) as the third-team center by the Associated Press (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Associated_Press) (AP) and second-team center by United Press International (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Press_International) (UPI).[7] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dick_Butkus#cite_note-8)[8] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dick_Butkus#cite_note-9) In 1963 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1963_Illinois_Fighting_Illini_football_team), Illinois compiled an 8–1–1 record and defeated Washington (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1963_Washington_Huskies_football_team) in the 1964 Rose Bowl (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1964_Rose_Bowl). Butkus was named the team's most valuable player for the season, and was awarded the Chicago Tribune Silver Football (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicago_Tribune_Silver_Football) as the Big Ten's most valuable player.[9] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dick_Butkus#cite_note-10) He was a unanimous choice (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_unanimous_All-Americans_in_college_football) as a center for the 1963 College Football All-America Team (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1963_College_Football_All-America_Team), earning first-team honors from all seven major selectors.[10] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dick_Butkus#cite_note-11)
As a senior in 1964 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1964_Illinois_Fighting_Illini_football_team), Butkus was named the team's co-captain along with safety George Donnelly (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Donnelly_(American_football)).[11] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dick_Butkus#cite_note-Liska-12) UPI deemed Butkus college football's Lineman of the Year (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UPI_College_Football_Lineman_of_the_Year) for 1964,[12] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dick_Butkus#cite_note-13) and he was named the player of the year by the American Football Coaches Association (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Football_Coaches_Association) and The Sporting News (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sporting_News).[13] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dick_Butkus#cite_note-14) For the second consecutive season he was deemed the Illini's most valuable player. He was chosen for the 1964 All-America team (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1964_College_Football_All-America_Team) by five of the six major selectors. In a cover story for Sports Illustrated (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sports_Illustrated) that season, sportswriter Dan Jenkins (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dan_Jenkins) remarked, "If every college football team had a linebacker like Dick Butkus of Illinois, all fullbacks soon would be three feet tall and sing soprano."[14] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dick_Butkus#cite_note-Rosenthal-15) Butkus also finished sixth in Heisman Trophy (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heisman_Trophy) balloting in 1963 and third in 1964, rare results both for a lineman and a defensive player.[15] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dick_Butkus#cite_note-Britannica-16) According to statistics kept by the university, he completed his college career with 374 tackles: 97 in 1962, 145 in 1963, and 132 in 1964.[16] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dick_Butkus#cite_note-17)
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Yeah, it’s easy to get in the weeds with accomplishment vs. ability. Wuerffel accomplished more in college than Elway but it’s hard to deny a big part of that was the team around him. And despite all of that it was never in question about who was actually the better player even before either of them took an NFL snap.
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See, this always happens - we get guys like Dan Marino and Curtis Martin on these COLLEGE lists, and it becomes an NFL list.
Yes, Marino and Martin were very good in college. But they made like one fringe All-American team for one year. Yes, they went on to have Hall of Fame NFL careers, but in this exercise, that is meaningless!
Perfect illustration: Look at 51 and 52.
Everybody knows Ray Lewis. HOF NFL LB. Great at Miami, small, fast, was an AA one year. But his college resume is dwarfed by a less-known LB in the same state: Brandon Spikes. Hell, even Takeo Spikes of Auburn is probably better known. But Brandon Spikes was a 3x AA at Florida. So if he and Ray Lewis had the same jersey number, for this exercise, Spikes should make the list.
Just for future reference. We have Marino and Martin on the list, and they'll stay on it, until they're replaced by someone better (college considerations only).
Before you get too preachy on this you might want to explain why you have Jerome Bettis listed over someone like Baker Mayfield.
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Completely disagree. Nothing to do with NFL success. Elway was #2 in the Heisman voting in 1982 behind Herschel Walker despite playing on a losing football team. He was the best quarterback in the country on a crappy team.
Danny Wuerffel played on great Florida teams. Those teams made Wuerffel better. Elway's teams made him worse--and he was still the best QB in the country.
To use your own analogy, you're using Florida's winning to justify Wuerffel over a better quarterback on a team that sucked.
Some fun things to know about Elway's college career. In addition to being a consensus All-American his senior year, he won the Sammy Baugh trophy for best passer in the country, and, as noted, was #2 in the Heisman voting despite playing on a losing team. Recall that only Paul Hornung (with a little ND bias) has won a Heisman from a losing team. He was the 1980 and 1982 Pac-10 player of the year, despite playing on 6-5 and 5-6 teams, respectively. In case you're wondering who else played in the Pac-10 in 1980, this kid Marcus Allen (you may remember him from the '81 Heisman trophy) was in the backfield at USC--and Ronnie Lott played his last season at USC that year, too, before being the 49ers 1st round NFL pick (8th overall). Elway set Pac-10 records for passing yardage, passing touchdowns, and completions, and was #2 in completion percentage behind Heisman winner Jim Plunkett.
The year after Elway graduated, Stanford dropped from 5-6 to 1-10. The year after Wuerffel graduated, Florida dropped, too--from 12-1 to 10-2.
Okay, so I read all of that and see that Elway had one great year. Woo-hoo!
Statistically, Elway's best year resembles Wuerffel's worst, so I wouldn''t cite stats.
My whole life, Joe Montana was always held is such higher esteem than Dan Marino, despite Marino's stats dwarfing Montana's. Either winning matters for a QB or it doesn't.
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If Elway doesn't measure up when it comes to stats or winning, then the only reason he's noteworthy is his tools. Perhaps the best "arm talent" of all-time. Great. But admit that. If he threw wounded ducks with the same exact stats and wins, he wouldn't even get a mention here. If he didn't win 2 Super Bowls....if his last name was Smith his college career was largely unremarkable.
Wuerffel won 4 straight SEC championships along with the '96 NC. The 4 years before he was there and the 4 years after, Florida only one 1 SEC championship each. He replaced the 3x SEC Player of the Year and took UF to another level. And yes, there was quite a drop-off when he left. Thankfully those '97 and '98 Gators teams had great defenses.
Elway was an all-time great NFL QB. But this isn't an NFL list, sorry. You could find a dozen college QBs with similar careers as his who fans deem unremarkable.
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Before you get too preachy on this you might want to explain why you have Jerome Bettis listed over someone like Baker Mayfield.
LOL. Because he was the first guy to pop in my head. I'd love for half the list to be improved upon (including Bettis) because, you know, participation is fun!
But as I've previously said, this isn't an NFL list. I'll gladly put Mayfield in for #6 now, because it make sense.
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Yeah, it’s easy to get in the weeds with accomplishment vs. ability. Wuerffel accomplished more in college than Elway but it’s hard to deny a big part of that was the team around him. And despite all of that it was never in question about who was actually the better player even before either of them took an NFL snap.
Indeed. There's a reason Elway was the #1 draft pick.
It wasn't just 1982; he was Pac-10 player of the year in 1980, too.
You've got your Florida bias and your national championship. Elway had the whole country believing he was the best in college at the time.
Here's another perspective supporting my Stanford love:
https://www.si.com/college-football/photos/2008/12/01best-college-qb-of-all-time#3
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Please don't disrespect me and suggest I'm being a homer here. There are about 2 QBs in history with a better resume than Wuerffel, and they both wore #15.
Let's have fun with this - I have 2 questions:
1 - if Elway was the best QB ever by 1982, who did he replace at the top?
2 - Willie Tuitama, Steve Stenstrom, Tom Ramsey....look them up and tell me how Elway's any different, besides Heisman voters' being enamored with his "arm talent".
btw, your link lists 18 QBs at random, including Wuerffel, lol.
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You could find a dozen college QBs with similar careers as his who fans deem unremarkable.
Name two. Your criteria are: two-time conference player of the year (not at their position, for all positions), and Heisman trophy runner-up/consensus All-American, while playing for a losing team.
Go...
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See, your criteria are exclusively based on voting......not with what Elway did on the field. You don't see a problem there?
I'm foolishly looking at TD/INT ratio, QB rating, and other measurables.
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Please don't disrespect me and suggest I'm being a homer here. There are about 2 QBs in history with a better resume than Wuerffel, and they both wore #15.
Let's have fun with this - I have 2 questions:
1 - if Elway was the best QB ever by 1982, who did he replace at the top?
2 - Willie Tuitama, Steve Stenstrom, Tom Ramsey....look them up and tell me how Elway's any different, besides Heisman voters' being enamored with his "arm talent".
btw, your link lists 18 QBs at random, including Wuerffel, lol.
He wasn't the best QB ever (I don't think); he was the best in college football in 1982 (and probably while he was in college, so 1979-82), and the best college player I'm aware of to wear #7.
Tom Ramsey is a good one to juxtapose, because he looks a lot more like Wuerffel, playing on #5 UCLA and putting up solid stats. Yet the Pac-10 voters, the All-American voters, and the Heisman voters all thought Elway was the better quarterback. That wasn't because of what he did in the NFL--he wasn't there yet.
You're looking for the best player to wear a number, not the best player on a great team to wear a given number. If the latter were your criteria, Theismann is probably back in the running, and Wuerffel has a great argument. If you're looking for the best player--in college--Elway takes it.
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Name two. Your criteria are: two-time conference player of the year (not at their position, for all positions), and Heisman trophy runner-up/consensus All-American, while playing for a losing team.
Go...
So he gets credit for losing?!? Why? Was he not a good-enough leader? lol Was he lacking the 'eye of the tiger'?
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See, your criteria are exclusively based on voting......not with what Elway did on the field. You don't see a problem there?
I'm foolishly looking at TD/INT ratio, QB rating, and other measurables.
What do you think those voters (for All-American and Pac-10 conference honors in addition to the Heisman) were basing their votes on? Future wins in the NFL? Sure, that makes sense.
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He wasn't the best QB ever (I don't think); he was the best in college football in 1982 (and probably while he was in college, so 1979-82), and the best college player I'm aware of to wear #7.
Tom Ramsey is a good one to juxtapose, because he looks a lot more like Wuerffel, playing on #5 UCLA and putting up solid stats. Yet the Pac-10 voters, the All-American voters, and the Heisman voters all thought Elway was the better quarterback. That wasn't because of what he did in the NFL--he wasn't there yet.
You're looking for the best player to wear a number, not the best player on a great team to wear a given number. If the latter were your criteria, Theismann is probably back in the running, and Wuerffel has a great argument. If you're looking for the best player--in college--Elway takes it.
Alright, great. Lets remove all the players from the list, 1-99, who played for winning teams. Well shit, we're back at square one.
Have you read Moneyball? We're not selling jeans, here. All of Elway's "support" involves voters because Elway's strength was looking the part. Ramsey ended his career with a better passer rating than Elway, but since he didn't have a hyper-strong arm, he didn't impress voters. And he had the biggest strike against him - HE WON!
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What do you think those voters (for All-American and Pac-10 conference honors in addition to the Heisman) were basing their votes on? Future wins in the NFL? Sure, that makes sense.
Please don't play dumb.
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So he gets credit for losing?!? Why? Was he not a good-enough leader? lol Was he lacking the 'eye of the tiger'?
This ain't tennis. Teams of players determine the wins and losses, not single players. To receive the kind of college accolades Elway did while playing on a bad team is nearly unheard of--unless you played for Notre Dame in the old days, and 1982 Stanford sure as heck wasn't Notre Dame.
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All-Time Losers Uniform list:
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2-
3-
4-
5-
6-Jay Cutler, QB, Vanderbilt
7-John Elway, QB, Stanford
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9-
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11-Antwaan Randle El, QB/WR, Indiana
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This ain't tennis. Teams of players determine the wins and losses, not single players. To receive the kind of college accolades Elway did while playing on a bad team is nearly unheard of--unless you played for Notre Dame in the old days, and 1982 Stanford sure as heck wasn't Notre Dame.
But don't you understand that probably hundreds of good, quality QBs were stuck on crappy teams and because they didn't have otherworldly arm talent, didn't stand out to voters?!? Yet their production was similar to that of Elway...
This is so plainly obvious to me....
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Why is Montana "better" than Marino, as an NFL QB??? It ain't tennis, yet this remains......something is backwards here....
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John Elway = Jay Cutler
=Anthony Thompson
=Paul Palmer
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Jay Cutler may actually fill in your #6 roster spot, since you're looking based on his college body of work. I don't know a lot of great #6's, but his college career was better than Jerome Bettis's.
Anthony Thompson of IU fame? He wore 32 and 34. I doubt he goes above O.J. Simpson, Johnny Lujack, or Herschel Walker, but yeah, he was a heck of a player.
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Oh how i wish CFR had similarity scores like BBR does.....I'll create Elway's list here. Based on production:
Willie Tuitama, Arizona
Steve Stenstrom, Stanford
Tom Ramsey, UCLA
Jay Cutler, Vanderbilt
Chad Henne, Michigan
Shane Matthews, Florida
Bo Wallace, Ole Miss
Rex Grossman, Florida
Jacory Harris, Miami
Trevone Boykin, TCU
David Klingler, Houston
These are not bad QBs. They're really good. But they're not Danny Wuerffel. They're not the best player ever who wore their jersey number.
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I’d still vote Wuerffel because I do think Elway’s HOF NFL career biases us. If Elway blows out his knee his rookie year and never plays again I don’t think this is a discussion.
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Stop being a homer, Kris.:72:
The more I research this, one thing becomes clear: to find a program with such a good QB who still sucks is difficult to do. So I gather 2 new hypotheses from this:
1 - Stanford's coach in 1982 must've been a dumbshit
2 - John Elway was most certainly the best QB ever, when only considering schools like Vandy and Indiana.
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I’d still vote Wuerffel because I do think Elway’s HOF NFL career biases us. If Elway blows out his knee his rookie year and never plays again I don’t think this is a discussion.
Along the same lines if Andre Ware had a couple of Super Bowl MVP’s I bet his name is bantered about on here. And now that I think about it is his college career really inferior to Steve Spurrier’s at #11? Probably not. I still say Lavar Arrington and Antoine Winfield were better choices at that number than Spurrier.
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I was thinking Arrington, but then I wondered, is having a Heisman a trump card? I say no, because Heismans are only awarded to 3 positions.
My issue with Ware is that it's hard to remember Houston was a "P5" team back then, in the SWC. I'm a total conference quality/schedule quality snob, so I harshly discount G5-type teams and players. And while the SWC may not have been especially strong, it was on par with the others, in terms of opportunity.
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I thought I'd get grief for #57, as he was a good player who is mostly a place-holder. But no. LOL
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All good players. Best at their position for their number? No (except maybe Cutler?). Henne, Ramsay, and Matthews--particularly Matthews--are pretty much the opposite of Elway: they received the attention they did because they were on good teams, not bad ones (don't get me wrong, anybody who can earn an NFL paycheck is a freak of nature). Don't know why you have Tuitama and Stenstrom on there. No one called them all-worldly in college. Good? Yes. The kind of accolades Elway got? Not even close.
Cutler is a good comparison, though, and maybe does belong as the #6 representative. Got a better one?
Best at his college number? Elway was better in college than Wuerffel. I have no problem reaching that conclusion. Florida 1993-1996 was much better than Stanford 1979-1982, though.
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1 - Stanford's coach in 1982 must've been a dumbshit
Well, he wasn't very good, that's for sure.
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I was thinking Arrington, but then I wondered, is having a Heisman a trump card? I say no, because Heismans are only awarded to 3 positions.
I think they can be but every Heisman season is different. Spurrier’s wasn’t so mind blowing that it shoots him to the top, IMO. Especially considering his college career overall was just ok.
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All good players. Best at their position for their number? No (except maybe Cutler?). Henne, Ramsay, and Matthews--particularly Matthews--are pretty much the opposite of Elway: they received the attention they did because they were on good teams, not bad ones (don't get me wrong, anybody who can earn an NFL paycheck is a freak of nature). Don't know why you have Tuitama and Stenstrom on there. I edited my post so you might understand better. No one called them all-worldly in college. Good? Yes. The kind of accolades Elway got? Not even close.
Cutler is a good comparison, though, and maybe does belong as the #6 representative. Got a better one?
Best at his college number? Elway was better in college than Wuerffel. I have no problem reaching that conclusion. Florida 1993-1996 was much better than Stanford 1979-1982, though. You have a claim. And a lack of evidence, imo.
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I think they can be but every Heisman season is different. Spurrier’s wasn’t so mind blowing that it shoots him to the top, IMO. Especially considering his college career overall was just ok.
Already changed it to Arrington.
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All good players. Best at their position for their number? No (except maybe Cutler?). Henne, Ramsay, and Matthews--particularly Matthews--are pretty much the opposite of Elway: they received the attention they did because they were on good teams, not bad ones (don't get me wrong, anybody who can earn an NFL paycheck is a freak of nature). Don't know why you have Tuitama and Stenstrom on there. No one called them all-worldly in college. Good? Yes. The kind of accolades Elway got? Not even close.
Cutler is a good comparison, though, and maybe does belong as the #6 representative. Got a better one?
Best at his college number? Elway was better in college than Wuerffel. I have no problem reaching that conclusion. Florida 1993-1996 was much better than Stanford 1979-1982, though.
Yes, Baker Mayfield belongs at #6 and it ain’t close.
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Why isn't there a role-reversal here for #22? I'd love to stick Emmitt Smith on there, but I acknowledge his college career, while great, wasn't all-time best. It's funny, I have a bias apparently, but I'm not advocating for a Gator great who had a HOF pro career.
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These are not bad QBs. They're really good. But they're not Danny Wuerffel. They're not the best player ever who wore their jersey number.
Neither was Danny Wuerffel. :)
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I think I default to early 90s players, because that's who I probably have on a pedestal. I definitely have a recency bias against players who are fresh in my mind.
Much like baseball HOF voters have a 1980s blind spot.
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Yes, Baker Mayfield belongs at #6 and it ain’t close.
Yeah, that makes sense.
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Neither was Danny Wuerffel. :)
If you don't stop it, I'm going to throw someone like Eric Crouch on the list !!!!
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Yes, Baker Mayfield belongs at #6 and it ain’t close.
But he won too much.....:djparty:
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I think I default to early 90s players, because that's who I probably have on a pedestal. I definitely have a recency bias against players who are fresh in my mind.
Much like baseball HOF voters have a 1980s blind spot.
Honestly, I think this accounts for your view of Elway. You knew him as a pro, not a collegiate player. Oddly, I followed very little of his pro career (though obviously I was aware of it). But he was really turning heads when he was in college.
That said, if he wore 15 or some other an number that is impacted with tons of the college greats, I wouldn't put him on the list. I just never thought of Wuerfful as the same kind of dominating as a guy like Manning, or Tebow, or Frazier (Wuerfful was obviously a better passer than those last two). As another reference, if Brady and Wuerfful had worn the same number, I wouldn't have Brady in the discussion, even though he may be the NFL's GOAT.
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I'm a stats guy. I'm aware Elway was thought of as a good runner, but he had negative rushing yardage every year in college (sacks). Guys like Drew Brees even had a 500-yard rushing season - they took that skill and made it a positive that could be measured.
Just as Raghib Ismail may not belong at #25, I definitely have a halo effect for him EVEN WHILE KNOWING HE ONLY SCORED 15 CAREER TDs, I just feel you have a similar effect with Elway. I don't doubt for a minute that the consensus at the time was that he was an all-world great player, both ability and production-wise.
But Wuerffel has better Heisman/awards data AND better passing data (both rate and percentage). For me, that's it - case closed.
Along the same lines, I don't think Randy Moss should stay on the list. He had 2 huge years at a G5-type school. He was good enough to play at ND or FSU, but he screwed up and ended up at Marshall. So his highlights are vs Army and Ball State instead of Michigan and Miami. His NFL HOF exploits shall not be taken into account, and his college production takes a hit due to the schedule he faced.
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Please vote on the polls I created. We'll do 4 numbers every 4 days, if people participate.
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I'm a stats guy. I'm aware Elway was thought of as a good runner, but he had negative rushing yardage every year in college (sacks). Guys like Drew Brees even had a 500-yard rushing season - they took that skill and made it a positive that could be measured.
Just as Raghib Ismail may not belong at #25, I definitely have a halo effect for him EVEN WHILE KNOWING HE ONLY SCORED 15 CAREER TDs, I just feel you have a similar effect with Elway. I don't doubt for a minute that the consensus at the time was that he was an all-world great player, both ability and production-wise.
But Wuerffel has better Heisman/awards data AND better passing data (both rate and percentage). For me, that's it - case closed.
Along the same lines, I don't think Randy Moss should stay on the list. He had 2 huge years at a G5-type school. He was good enough to play at ND or FSU, but he screwed up and ended up at Marshall. So his highlights are vs Army and Ball State instead of Michigan and Miami. His NFL HOF exploits shall not be taken into account, and his college production takes a hit due to the schedule he faced.
Disagree on Moss. His pedigree preceded him at Marshall. He wasn’t a guy no one heard of who just showed up at a small school and started putting up huge numbers like Troy Edwards. Nobody was wondering how this guy slipped through the fingers of power schools. Lou Holtz said Moss was the best high school player he’s ever seen.
What he did at Marshall just confirmed what people already believed about him. He has the pedigree, stats, and hardware (Biletnikoff, Heisman finalist).
I mean, if there are better or similar options at that number then they should be considered, including Jerry Rice. The reason I went with Moss is that I think coming out of college he was considered a better WR than Rice. I think there were questions if Rice was a product of his competition. The only questions surrounding Moss were his character.
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I put Keith Jackson, TE, Oklahoma there, but Moss works, too.
I'll never forget watching a random-ass Nebraska vs LA Tech game in which Edwards caught 400 yds worth of passes. It was pure video game style.
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Honestly, I think this accounts for your view of Elway. You knew him as a pro, not a collegiate player. Oddly, I followed very little of his pro career (though obviously I was aware of it). But he was really turning heads when he was in college.
That said, if he wore 15 or some other an number that is impacted with tons of the college greats, I wouldn't put him on the list. I just never thought of Wuerfful as the same kind of dominating as a guy like Manning, or Tebow, or Frazier (Wuerfful was obviously a better passer than those last two). As another reference, if Brady and Wuerfful had worn the same number, I wouldn't have Brady in the discussion, even though he may be the NFL's GOAT.
At the risk of pissing off our Nebraska fans I gotta say something regarding Frazier. He should not be mentioned with guys like Manning and Tebow whose production was through the roof. Every time I see Tommie Frazier listed among the best college players who ever played I cringe a little.
He was a terrific player, no doubt. But I find it funny you sort of knock Wuerffel because of the team he had around him despite the fact he also had stats to validate him. Frazier doesn’t. Pat White’s rushing and passing numbers dwarf Frazier’s. Eric Crouch was a much more productive QB at Nebraska than Frazier.
I get Frazier had some injuries that slowed him down and he was considered a master of the option and sometimes that meant handing if off to fullbacks or pitching to I backs and giving up stats but c’mon.
Frazier’s reputation benefits more from the team that was around him than just about any player I can remember.
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I put Keith Jackson, TE, Oklahoma there, but Moss works, too.
I'll never forget watching a random-ass Nebraska vs LA Tech game in which Edwards caught 400 yds worth of passes. It was pure video game style.
See, I sort of think we needed to see Jackson’s pro career to validate him a little too. While his YPC was amazing a lot of that was OU would run option 40 times a game and lull safeties and linebackers to sleep and then pop Jackson behind them.
With him accumulating so few catches I’m not sure without his pro career if his college career is remembered so fondly.
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I put Keith Jackson, TE, Oklahoma there, but Moss works, too.
I'll never forget watching a random-ass Nebraska vs LA Tech game in which Edwards caught 400 yds worth of passes. It was pure video game style.
I was at that game. Solich HC debut. Nebraska won by 30. Rattay threw for 550+. Edwards had 21 for 405 and oh by the way ran back a punt for td. Also dropped a bomb for a td. Edwards wore #16. He looked so exhausted after the game. It was a hot humid late afternoon August kickoff.
And Keith Jackson owns #88.
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At the risk of pissing off our Nebraska fans I gotta say something regarding Frazier. He should not be mentioned with guys like Manning and Tebow whose production was through the roof. Every time I see Tommie Frazier listed among the best college players who ever played I cringe a little.
He was a terrific player, no doubt. But I find it funny you sort of knock Wuerffel because of the team he had around him despite the fact he also had stats to validate him. Frazier doesn’t. Pat White’s rushing and passing numbers dwarf Frazier’s. Eric Crouch was a much more productive QB at Nebraska than Frazier.
I get Frazier had some injuries that slowed him down and he was considered a master of the option and sometimes that meant handing if off to fullbacks or pitching to I backs and giving up stats but c’mon.
Frazier’s reputation benefits more from the team that was around him than just about any player I can remember.
Well for 25 years, I was assured he was an all-time great, mainly because he was such a winner. Yet today I learned that that's only a negative when rating a QB. If Nebraska stunk and Frazier led them to a 5-6 record, then he'd truly be great.
Nebraska beat #10 KSU with a walk-on 3rd string QB and their backup helped them win 8 games. Undefeated without Frazier....yet being a winner is his biggest selling point?
So here I sit, confused.
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At the risk of pissing off our Nebraska fans I gotta say something regarding Frazier. He should not be mentioned with guys like Manning and Tebow whose production was through the roof. Every time I see Tommie Frazier listed among the best college players who ever played I cringe a little.
He was a terrific player, no doubt. But I find it funny you sort of knock Wuerffel because of the team he had around him despite the fact he also had stats to validate him. Frazier doesn’t. Pat White’s rushing and passing numbers dwarf Frazier’s. Eric Crouch was a much more productive QB at Nebraska than Frazier.
I get Frazier had some injuries that slowed him down and he was considered a master of the option and sometimes that meant handing if off to fullbacks or pitching to I backs and giving up stats but c’mon.
Frazier’s reputation benefits more from the team that was around him than just about any player I can remember.
That's fair.
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not gonna piss off this Husker fan knocking Tommie Frazier, but simply looking at production numbers is no more telling than simply looking at championships won or the strength of the team around Frazier
Weighing the entire career of Frazier, it's worth mentioning that he took over the leadership of the team as a freshman and elevated that 92 team. It wasn't just the 94 and 95 championship teams that he is known for.
just an example:
In a big game in 92, #8 Nebraska hosted #8 Colorado. Frazier split time with starting QB Mike Grant.
Colorado was ranked in the top 20 for all defensive categories, yet NU dominated the game and held the ball nearly 43 minutes. The win ended CU's 25-game unbeaten conference streak and ended NU's eight-game winless streak vs. Top 20 teams.
NU's frosh QB, Tommie Frazier, rushed for 86 yards, and completed two touchdown passes.
As a frosh Tommie had 10 TD passes vs 1 INT.
the offense he ran really didn't give the opportunities for high production numbers, but w/o Frazier the offense just didn't perform as well.
Thinking about QB production numbers in 1992, how about Charlie Ward #17
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and I agree that is fair
other players that may have benefitted from the team around them might be a RB such as Ron Dayne - Ron might have had a pretty decent O-line and an offense suited specifically for him to rack up production numbers.
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I get all that with Frazier and think there is merit to it. I think Frazier should be remembered as an excellent college player but not one of the best of all time like he is frequently mentioned.
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and I agree that is fair
other players that may have benefitted from the team around them might be a RB such as Ron Dayne - Ron might have had a pretty decent O-line and an offense suited specifically for him to rack up production numbers.
I agree--though we was unquestionably a beast as a college running back.
I don't remember Dayne's time as well as I was overseas for some of it, and cable TV options weren't what they are now. The year the Badgers' backfield was Clay, Ball, and White I remember marveling at the lanes they had to run through. All three were good college running backs, but none was an all-timer (despite Ball's TD records).
It's hard to balance how good a player was against how good a team it was that was around him. In any team sport the two are inextricably linked. Good players make teams better; good teams make players better. But sometimes no matter how good a player is, they can't make the team any better than it is; and sometimes no matter how good a team is, they can't make the individual player any better. There's no science to figuring out which is which, so people will continue to disagree about such things as who the best college QB to wear #7 was.
We can agree it wasn't Jimmy Clausen--or even John Stocco. ;)
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I get all that with Frazier and think there is merit to it. I think Frazier should be remembered as an excellent college player but not one of the best of all time like he is frequently mentioned.
I guess it depends on your opinion. and your criteria. Is a QB with a laser arm that can't run a better college football player than a QB that can't throw well but can run? Is the better athlete a better football player or the better leader or the more intelligent.
I think most think of Frazier as one of the best option/running QBs, but Oklahoma had QBs that were faster and shiftier in the open field.
Obviously many folks put not only winning, but winning championships high on their list of criteria. With Tommie's 2 national titles, 3 MVP performances in National championships bowl games and a 4 year record of 45-4, some folks are going to give him credit as a great player.
I'm not saying that it's right or wrong, it's just an opinion.
In my opinion the hypesman trophy should be awarded to a Linebacker, running back, safety, Defensive End or Tight End instead of a QB.
The best football players are guys that can Hit and take hits, block, tackle, run, and jump. Not fragile QBs with a great arm.
Tebow, Frazier, Newton, Charlie Ward, Frost, Crouch, and many others as college QBs are very good examples of football players. IMO
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I guess it depends on your opinion. and your criteria. Is a QB with a laser arm that can't run a better college football player than a QB that can't throw well but can run? Is the better athlete a better football player or the better leader or the more intelligent.
I think most think of Frazier as one of the best option/running QBs, but Oklahoma had QBs that were faster and shiftier in the open field.
Obviously many folks put not only winning, but winning championships high on their list of criteria. With Tommie's 2 national titles, 3 MVP performances in National championships bowl games and a 4 year record of 45-4, some folks are going to give him credit as a great player.
I'm not saying that it's right or wrong, it's just an opinion.
In my opinion the hypesman trophy should be awarded to a Linebacker, running back, safety, Defensive End or Tight End instead of a QB.
The best football players are guys that can Hit and take hits, block, tackle, run, and jump. Not fragile QBs with a great arm.
Tebow, Frazier, Newton, Charlie Ward, Frost, Crouch, and many others as college QBs are very good examples of football players. IMO
You know how QB’s get too much credit when a team is really good? I think Frazier gets an inordinate amount of credit even by QB standards. Frazier and Tebow shouldn’t even be a debate. It’s Tebow. That’s a one second discusssion.
Idk. I’ve seen and heard stuff over the years with Frazier that seems crazy to me. He was the 2nd Team QB on SI’s Team of the Century. I mean, WTF? CFN named him the 33rd best college football player ever in 2004.
When I compare my memory of watching him play with the numbers he put up those kind of accolades don’t make sense to me. He was good, but not THAT good.
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I'm gonna backtrack a little on my criticism of Frazier because I realize that I have largely been comparing his numbers to dual threat QB's that came along during this era of HUNH, spread, point a minute offenses and there is really no comparison.
When Frazier finished his career in 1995 his career numbers were actually considered pretty good for a dual threat guy who didn't throw it a lot. Only six years earlier when Major Harris finished his career at WVU he became only the second player ever to finish with 5000 career passing yards and 2000 yards rushing. Those numbers seem quaint now and so do Frazier's.
The numbers that guys like Tebow, Watson, Newton, Prescott, Barrett, and Braxton Miller put up blow away guys from the 80s and 90s.
When Frazier was named the 2nd team All Century QB in 1999 it probably made a lot more sense then than it does now.
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Some people dismiss Tebow as a system QB. I guess....if your system heaps more responsibility and play-calls onto the QB's shoulders, I guess that's a system.
Anywho, I wanted to see the great Tebow stacked against Barrett - not to diss Barrett, I'm seemingly his only supporter, but to see the difference between a QB with elite talent around him and a QB with elite talent around him. Right?
Tebow's stats:
661 for 995 (66.4%), 9,285 at 9.3 ypa. 88 TD, 16 INT = 170.8 Rating
692 rush attempts for 2,947 yards (4.3 ypc) and 57 TD
Barrett:
769 for 1,211 (63.5%), 9,434 at 7.8 ypa. 104 TD, 30 INT = 152.3 Rating
656 rush attempts for 3,263 yards (5.0 ypc) and 43 TD
Wow, I had no idea Barrett had so many touches. I recall Meyer scaling back Tebow's plays purposely from his huge soph Heisman year. Looks like he rode Barrett like a horse. Interesting.
I think the two were used very differently as runners - Barrett often in a 5-wide shotgun draw (OSU fans correct me) and Tebow often in a 2-TE, 3rd-and-1 dive play. That could explain both the yards-per-carry and rush TD discrepancies. One difference - Tebow led Florida in rush attempts his 3 years as starting QB, and was 2nd his FR year. Barrett only led OSU in attempts once, but was 2nd the other years. He had a "dude" at RB, while Tebow did not.
The point is, both Ohio State and Florida were great under these guys. tOSU was 50-6 in Barrett's 4 years (he didn't start them all, I know). Florida was 35-6 in Tebow's starting seasons, 48-7 in his 4 years.
Tebow was a Heisman finalist all 3 years he started, Barrett got one 5th-place finish. Tebow was the superior passer, I think it's fair to say, an all-time great short-yardage runner. Barrett's 43 TD and 5 yards per carry are right between Randle El and Denard Robinson as all-time top 3 in the B10. Tebow's 57 TD are 2nd all-time for a P5 QB, between Crouch and KSU's Klein - 2 option QBs, in the classic sense of the word.
But look back at Tebow and Barrett's numbers......both at elite programs, same coach, same system, both ultra-successful, so that's a push. Barrett had kind of an INT issue compared to Tebow, and Tim has a big lead in yards per pass, but otherwise, they're the same.
I don't know what all this means, but the busy-ness of team quality, schedule, stats, and such is a freakin' maze and IMO common knowledge isn't exactly spot-on.
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Tebow was a beast. Full stop.
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as a UNL fan.. I'd still take Gill over Frazier. One QB in UNL's history that doesn't get enough love is Lord. He had very little around him and almost beat a good Texas team in Lincoln. If he played for TO, I think he would have been a legend.
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I'm gonna backtrack a little on my criticism of Frazier because I realize that I have largely been comparing his numbers to dual threat QB's that came along during this era of HUNH, spread, point a minute offenses and there is really no comparison.
When Frazier finished his career in 1995 his career numbers were actually considered pretty good for a dual threat guy who didn't throw it a lot. Only six years earlier when Major Harris finished his career at WVU he became only the second player ever to finish with 5000 career passing yards and 2000 yards rushing. Those numbers seem quaint now and so do Frazier's.
The numbers that guys like Tebow, Watson, Newton, Prescott, Barrett, and Braxton Miller put up blow away guys from the 80s and 90s.
When Frazier was named the 2nd team All Century QB in 1999 it probably made a lot more sense then than it does now.
This was a point I was about to type in my response above, but you already mentioned it. You have to look at how they compared to their peers at the time, not across time. So many things change from decade to decade in football.... thanks for mentioning it.
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as a UNL fan.. I'd still take Gill over Frazier. One QB in UNL's history that doesn't get enough love is Lord. He had very little around him and almost beat a good Texas team in Lincoln. If he played for TO, I think he would have been a legend.
Gill is my fav all-time at UNL. Lord was the best runner.
I would have loved to see what Gerry Gdowski would have done with another season - burned redshirt
Frazier did have 199 yards vs the #2 ranked Gators - best QB numbers in a bowl until Vince Young came along - Vince was a better runner and passer than Tommie
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I tend to view VY in the conversation of "best of all time regardless of position".
The guy could have played any position (outside of OL at DT) for any team, at any time.
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I'll post THE official 'best number ever' list here, as we vote. I'll update it as needed.
1 - Larry Fitzgerald, WR, Pitt
2 - Charles Woodson, CB, Michigan
3 - Carson Palmer, QB, USC
4 - Champ Bailey, CB, Georgia
5 - Reggie Bush, RB, USC
6 - Baker Mayfield, QB, Oklahoma
7 - Michael Vick, QB, Virginia Tech
8 - Lamar Jackson, QB, Louisville
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Charlie Tripping was number 62.
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I'll post THE official 'best number ever' list here, as we vote. I'll update it as needed.
1 - Larry Fitzgerald, WR, Pitt
2 - Charles Woodson, CB, Michigan
3 - Carson Palmer, QB, USC
4 - Champ Bailey, CB, Georgia
5 - Reggie Bush, RB, USC
6 - Baker Mayfield, QB, Oklahoma
7 - Michael Vick, QB, Virginia Tech
8 - Lamar Jackson, QB, Louisville
9 - Steve McNair, QB, Alcorn St
10 - Vince Young, QB, Texas
11 - Antwaan Randle El, QB/WR, Indiana
12 - Roger Staubach, QB, Navy
13 - Dan Marino, QB, Pitt
14 - Don Hutson, WR, Alabama
15 - Tommie Frazier, QB, Nebraska
16 - Peyton Manning, QB, Tennessee
17 - Charlie Ward, QB, Florida St
18 - Archie Manning, QB, Ole Miss
19 - Eric Dickerson, RB, SMU
20 - Earl Campbell, RB, Texas
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I'll post THE official 'best number ever' list here, as we vote. I'll update it as needed.
1 - Larry Fitzgerald, WR, Pitt
2 - Charles Woodson, CB, Michigan
3 - Carson Palmer, QB, USC
4 - Champ Bailey, CB, Georgia
5 - Reggie Bush, RB, USC
6 - Baker Mayfield, QB, Oklahoma
7 - Michael Vick, QB, Virginia Tech
8 - Lamar Jackson, QB, Louisville
9 - Steve McNair, QB, Alcorn St
10 - Vince Young, QB, Texas
11 - Antwaan Randle El, QB/WR, Indiana
12 - Roger Staubach, QB, Navy
13 - Dan Marino, QB, Pitt
14 - Don Hutson, WR, Alabama
15 - Tommie Frazier, QB, Nebraska
16 - Peyton Manning, QB, Tennessee
17 - Charlie Ward, QB, Florida St
18 - Archie Manning, QB, Ole Miss
19 - Eric Dickerson, RB, SMU
20 - Earl Campbell, RB, Texas
21 - Barry Sanders, RB, Oklahoma St
22 - Doug Flutie, QB, Boston College
23 -
24 - Nile Kinnick, RB, Iowa
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Happy with that list.
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solid
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I tend to view VY in the conversation of "best of all time regardless of position".
The guy could have played any position (outside of OL at DT) for any team, at any time.
VY and MV are the two that stand out to me..
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If I am building my all-time offense, Vick would get serious consideration as my QB.
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Gill is my fav all-time at UNL. Lord was the best runner.
I would have loved to see what Gerry Gdowski would have done with another season - burned redshirt
Frazier did have 199 yards vs the #2 ranked Gators - best QB numbers in a bowl until Vince Young came along - Vince was a better runner and passer than Tommie
VY was better than Tommie. I still would pick Vick above them all. He was the most gifted QB in my life time... but I do have a bias for QB's that can run. Could you imagine Vick in these spread offenses of the last 10 years? He numbers would have been silly..
Gill is my favorite UNL QB because I wanted to be him as a kid. That was my first autograph. I should have clarified that... Gill was great, but I do think Tommie had that it factor. The team was different when he was on the field than when he was not. We saw it cause we were fans. Others disagree and that is fine... but UNL fans saw it and lived it, hence our universal appreciation for Frazier.
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Vick was the better pure passer of the running QBs and lightning fast.
I would take Vince for a better runner. Much bigger and more top end speed. Long stride.
Either of those two play for Osborne or Solich and they walk away with the Heisman - and very possibly an undefeated season
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Not sure about Solich.... He wanted to turn FB games into battles in the phone booth. FS worked on a lot of plays during the week they didn't call during the game. TO would take advantage of his players skills... FS when conservative when the game was on the line. If Crouch didn't have that incredible first step or first cut, I'm not sure FS lasts as long as he did... I also think Crouch killed UNL QB recruiting because nobody wanted to run that often and get that beat up. They went to other programs.
Bobby would have been the starter under TO. No way of proving it, but I'll go to my grave thinking it.
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agreed, Crouch won the trophy, so hard for me to argue, but I'd have started Newcombe. He had the better arm and probably some other intangibles. If Crouch doesn't throw a fit and threaten to leave the team, Bobby is the starter.
Frank was no Osborne as O-coordinator, but..... he got a lot out of Jammal Lord
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Man I love the "it" factor. Not only does "it" exist, but it's really, really hard to quantify (i.e., subjective...again). Joe Montana had it. You guys say Frazier had it (I'm not saying he didn't, I just didn't follow Nebraska enough at the time to know); Tebow had it; Elway had it; so did Vince Young and the Rocket: the ability to come up big when it mattered most.
There are players who are great producers, but who you wouldn't choose when the cards are down. There are players who are great producers who never really had the opportunity or need to produce when the chips were down. Wuerffel may actually be one of those guys. In the 1996 season, he never really had that opportunity. He had a come-from-behind drive against FSU, but it wasn't to tie or take the lead, it was to get within a score.
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I think one thing we all may be guilty of is that if a guy didn't do something, we assume he couldn't. That's unfair - not because it hurts someone's feelings, but because the player in question might've been great at something he never had a chance to showcase.
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agreed, Crouch won the trophy, so hard for me to argue, but I'd have started Newcombe. He had the better arm and probably some other intangibles. If Crouch doesn't throw a fit and threaten to leave the team, Bobby is the starter.
Frank was no Osborne as O-coordinator, but..... he got a lot out of Jammal Lord
Oh, oh, let's debate Crouch's Heisman. Who actually deserved it?
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Antwaan Randle El or possibly a defensive player named Roy Williams
David Carr?
Probably not Grossman or Dorsey
a weak class?
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There was a strong sophomore prejudice.
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Randle El and Roy Williams were the best players that season. Too bad guys on bad teams and defensive players are ineligible.
I can't believe Randle El got that Hoosiers team to 5-6
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I cannot believe that Crouch got that Nebraska team to 11-2.
Shame that Solich ruined his shoulder...watching him throw as a freshman v as a senior was night and day. Like the Chili Peppers say, scar tissue.
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I cannot believe that Crouch got that Nebraska team to 11-2.
the team wasn't the problem
11-2 in spite of the coaching
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Rex Grossman vs ranked opp in 2001:
vs #21: 22-31 for 393 yds and 5 TD, 0 Int W
vs #18: 22-32 for 464 yds and 5 TD, 1 Int W
vs #15: 27-35 for 407 yds and 2 TD, 2 Int W
vs #14: 21-33 for 302 yds and 3 TD, 0 Int W
vs #21: 27-42 for 290 yds and 2 TD, 1 Int W
vs #5: 33-51 for 362 yds and 2 TD, 1 Int L
vs #6: 20-28 for 248 yds and 4 TD, 0 Int W (Orange Bowl)
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played 7 ranked opponents in one season?
So, that's why you hate the Vols
last lost to the Vols?
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I think one thing we all may be guilty of is that if a guy didn't do something, we assume he couldn't. That's unfair - not because it hurts someone's feelings, but because the player in question might've been great at something he never had a chance to showcase.
That's true, but when you've seen someone do it and you know they can, it's easy to give them credit for it. It's a known vs. and unknown, and if you had to pick one to handle that situation, you'd pick the one you know can handle it.
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The Tennessee loss wasn't his fault, but the Auburn one was.
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Auburn wasn't ranked :)
The Tennessee loss was on the defense, but the Vols pooped the bed in the SECCG their next game. But if Rex had been a JR or SR, he'd have run away with the Heisman, imo. I think for a while there, many voters viewed the Heisman as a career award, even though it's explicitly not.
The Orange Bowl vs Maryland was fun, because Grossman didn't play the first quarter and a half. It's 14-10 and he comes in, Florida goes on a 35-0 run.
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I'll post THE official 'best number ever' list here, as we vote. I'll update it as needed.
1 - Larry Fitzgerald, WR, Pitt
2 - Charles Woodson, CB, Michigan
3 - Carson Palmer, QB, USC
4 - Champ Bailey, CB, Georgia
5 - Reggie Bush, RB, USC
6 - Baker Mayfield, QB, Oklahoma
7 - Michael Vick, QB, Virginia Tech
8 - Lamar Jackson, QB, Louisville
9 - Steve McNair, QB, Alcorn St
10 - Vince Young, QB, Texas
11 - Antwaan Randle El, QB/WR, Indiana
12 - Roger Staubach, QB, Navy
13 - Dan Marino, QB, Pitt
14 - Don Hutson, WR, Alabama
15 - Tommie Frazier, QB, Nebraska
16 - Peyton Manning, QB, Tennessee
17 - Charlie Ward, QB, Florida St
18 - Archie Manning, QB, Ole Miss
19 - Eric Dickerson, RB, SMU
20 - Earl Campbell, RB, Texas
21 - Barry Sanders, RB, Oklahoma St
22 - Doug Flutie, QB, Boston College
23 - Leroy Keyes, RB, Purdue
24 - Nile Kinnick, RB, Iowa
25 - Raghib Ismail, WR, Notre Dame
26 - Sean Taylor, S, Miami
27 - Eddie George, RB, Ohio St.
28 - Adrian Peterson, RB, Oklahoma
29 - Jarvis Jones, LB, Georgia
30 - Mike Rozier, RB, Nebraska
31 - Dre Bly, CB, North Carolina
32 - O.J. Simpson, RB, USC
33 - Ron Dayne, RB, Wisconsin
34 - Herschel Walker, RB, Georgia
35 - Doc Blanchard, FB, Army
36 - Chris Spielman, LB, Ohio St
37 - Doak Walker, RB, SMU
38 - Roy Williams, S, Oklahoma
39 - Sam Cunningham, FB, USC
Updated.
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1 - Larry Fitzgerald, WR, Pitt
2 - Charles Woodson, CB, Michigan
3 - Carson Palmer, QB, USC
4 - Champ Bailey, CB, Georgia
5 - Reggie Bush, RB, USC
6 - Baker Mayfield, QB, Oklahoma
7 - Michael Vick, QB, Virginia Tech
8 - Lamar Jackson, QB, Louisville
9 - Steve McNair, QB, Alcorn St
10 - Vince Young, QB, Texas
11 - Antwaan Randle El, QB/WR, Indiana
12 - Roger Staubach, QB, Navy
13 - Dan Marino, QB, Pitt
14 - Don Hutson, WR, Alabama
15 - Tommie Frazier, QB, Nebraska
16 - Peyton Manning, QB, Tennessee
17 - Charlie Ward, QB, Florida St
18 - Archie Manning, QB, Ole Miss
19 - Eric Dickerson, RB, SMU
20 - Earl Campbell, RB, Texas
21 - Barry Sanders, RB, Oklahoma St
22 - Doug Flutie, QB, Boston College
23 - Leroy Keyes, RB, Purdue
24 - Nile Kinnick, RB, Iowa
25 - Raghib Ismail, WR, Notre Dame
26 - Sean Taylor, S, Miami
27 - Eddie George, RB, Ohio St.
28 - Adrian Peterson, RB, Oklahoma
29 - Jarvis Jones, LB, Georgia
30 - Mike Rozier, RB, Nebraska
31 - Dre Bly, CB, North Carolina
32 - O.J. Simpson, RB, USC
33 - Ron Dayne, RB, Wisconsin
34 - Herschel Walker, RB, Georgia
35 - Doc Blanchard, FB, Army
36 - Chris Spielman, LB, Ohio St
37 - Doak Walker, RB, SMU
38 - Roy Williams, S, Oklahoma
39 - Sam Cunningham, FB, USC
40 - Elroy Hirsch, RB, Wisc/Mich
41 - Glenn Davis, RB, Army
42 - Ronnie Lott, S, USC
43 - Darren Sproles, RB, Kansas St
44 - Jim Brown, FB, Syracuse
45 - Archie Griffin, RB, Ohio St
46 - Bob Ferguson, FB, Ohio St
47 - David Pollack, DE, Georgia
48 - Gale Sayers, RB, Kansas
49 - Julius Peppers, DE, North Carolina
50 - Dick Butkus, C/LB, Illinois
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1 - Larry Fitzgerald, WR, Pitt
2 - Charles Woodson, CB, Michigan
3 - Carson Palmer, QB, USC
4 - Champ Bailey, CB, Georgia
5 - Reggie Bush, RB, USC
6 - Baker Mayfield, QB, Oklahoma
7 - Michael Vick, QB, Virginia Tech
8 - Lamar Jackson, QB, Louisville
9 - Steve McNair, QB, Alcorn St
10 - Vince Young, QB, Texas
11 - Antwaan Randle El, QB/WR, Indiana
12 - Roger Staubach, QB, Navy
13 - Dan Marino, QB, Pitt
14 - Don Hutson, WR, Alabama
15 - Tommie Frazier, QB, Nebraska
16 - Peyton Manning, QB, Tennessee
17 - Charlie Ward, QB, Florida St
18 - Archie Manning, QB, Ole Miss
19 - Eric Dickerson, RB, SMU
20 - Earl Campbell, RB, Texas
21 - Barry Sanders, RB, Oklahoma St
22 - Doug Flutie, QB, Boston College
23 - Leroy Keyes, RB, Purdue
24 - Nile Kinnick, RB, Iowa
25 - Raghib Ismail, WR, Notre Dame
26 - Sean Taylor, S, Miami
27 - Eddie George, RB, Ohio St.
28 - Adrian Peterson, RB, Oklahoma
29 - Jarvis Jones, LB, Georgia
30 - Mike Rozier, RB, Nebraska
31 - Dre Bly, CB, North Carolina
32 - O.J. Simpson, RB, USC
33 - Ron Dayne, RB, Wisconsin
34 - Herschel Walker, RB, Georgia
35 - Doc Blanchard, FB, Army
36 - Chris Spielman, LB, Ohio St
37 - Doak Walker, RB, SMU
38 - Roy Williams, S, Oklahoma
39 - Sam Cunningham, FB, USC
40 - Elroy Hirsch, RB, Wisc/Mich
41 - Glenn Davis, RB, Army
42 - Ronnie Lott, S, USC
43 - Darren Sproles, RB, Kansas St
44 - Jim Brown, FB, Syracuse
45 - Archie Griffin, RB, Ohio St
46 - Bob Ferguson, FB, Ohio St
47 - David Pollack, DE, Georgia
48 - Gale Sayers, RB, Kansas
49 - Julius Peppers, DE, North Carolina
50 - Dick Butkus, C/LB, Illinois
51 - Kurt Burris, C/LB, Oklahoma
52 - Ray Lewis, LB, Miami
53 - Randy Gradishar, LB, Ohio St
54 - Lee Roy Jordan, C/LB, Alabama
55 - Derrick Thomas, LB, Alabama
56 - Michael Barrow, LB, Miami
57 - Dwight Stephenson, C, Alabama
58 - Peter Boulware, DE, Florida St
59 - Derrick Rodgers, DE, Arizona St
60 - Chuck Bednarik, LB/C, Penn
61 - Jim Lynch, LB, Notre Dame
62 - Charley Trippi, RB, Georgia
63 - Mike Singletary, LB, Baylor
64 - Bob Brown, G, Nebraska
65 - Willie Lanier, LB, Morgan St
66 - Deacon Jones, DE, Miss Valley St
67 - Aaron Taylor, OT, Nebraska
68 - Tedy Bruschi, DE, Arizona
69 - Tom Brown, G, Minnesota
70 - Bob Gain, G/T, Kentucky
71 - Merlin Olsen, DT, Utah St
72 - Bronko Nagurski, FB/NT, Minnesota
73 - John Hannah, G/T, Alabama
74 - Jack Youngblood, DE, Florida
75 - Orlando Pace, OT, Ohio St
76 - Warren Sapp, DT, Miami
77 - Red Grange, RB, Illinois
78 - Bruce Smith, DE, Virginia Tech
79 - Johnathan Ogden, OT, UCLA
80 -
81 - Tim Brown, WR, Notre Dame
82 - Ozzie Newsome, TE, Alabama
83 - Kellen Winslow, TE, Missouri
84 - Jerry Robinson, LB, UCLA
85 -