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The Power Five => Big Ten => Topic started by: ELA on December 30, 2018, 01:30:55 PM

Title: 2019 Michigan Season Thread
Post by: ELA on December 30, 2018, 01:30:55 PM
Nordin was kicked off the team for calling Harbaugh a motherf***er in practice.  Was probably transferring either way
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: MaximumSam on December 30, 2018, 01:35:22 PM
Nordin was kicked off the team for calling Harbaugh a motherf***er in practice.  Was probably transferring either way
Been a long time since Harbaugh spent the night with him. 
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on December 30, 2018, 01:43:09 PM
(https://mdencdn.com/thumbnail/SPG4088.JPG)

So far Harbaugh hasn't been able to get by ND or OSU, but get both teams at home. 

The road team is undefeated in the Paul Bunyon series since big Jim's arrival, so that trend would favor the Spartans. 

JH has yet to beat Wisconsin on the road, so that one could be problematic. And winning at Penn St is no gimme. 

You can probably pencil in a W in the other seven games, so 3-2 in the five big games should be enough to catapult the Wolverines to another 10-win finish heading into the Bowl Game. 
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: ELA on December 30, 2018, 03:35:46 PM
Don't sleep on Army, Oklahoma almost did.

Iowa is at home, but next year's Hawkeyes team looks like it could be Ferentz's best since that 2010 team.  Better than the 2015 version.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Mdot21 on December 30, 2018, 05:13:32 PM
starting CB LaVert Hill returning for his senior year as is starting safety Josh Mettelus. That’s big news for the 2019 secondary. If they can get the other starting CB David Long to return as well- whoa. Hopefully Dax Hill is ready to start at the other safety spot and hopefully Ambry Thomas is ready to finally make his presence felt on defense and not just special teams. Long, Thomas, and Dax can fly. Probably 3 of the 10 fastest guys in the entire B1G. If they can’t produce an elite secondary with athletes like that next year- then Don Brown should be on his way out. Brown needs to change up his schemes. Less man to man across the board is a GOOD thing. 

Pep Hamilton was on the sidelines in the Lambeau field in the GB vs Detroit game today. I pray to god that means he’s taking an NFL job.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: ELA on December 30, 2018, 05:17:32 PM
Metellus is terrible in every big game.  Getting all the cornerbacks back is big though.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Mdot21 on December 30, 2018, 05:26:28 PM
Metellus is terrible in every big game.  Getting all the cornerbacks back is big though.
Because Don Brown asks him to do things he shouldn’t be asking him to do. 
I don’t think I’ve ever seen a safety play as much man to man coverage as he asks Metellus to play. There are only a handful of safeties in the history of the sport that can actually play man to man like a CB all game long and hold up. Metellus ain’t one of them. Dax Hill- now that’s the type of freak athlete that might be able to do it but we won’t know til he actually goes out and does it. Bottom line- for a safety to play that much man to man he’s got to be a freak of nature like Dax Hill. That ain’t Metellus. Metellus is an average athlete. 
Metellus was awful in 2017, but he was quite good most of the time in 2018. If he can improve a bit and if Don Brown can get his head out of his ass and stop asking Metellus to play so much man to man coverage- I think he can be quite good. 
Really, they need to change the defensive scheme imo. It’s not working. It’s been figured out and exposed. Joe Moorhead cracked the code on that defense last year and Urban and his disciple Dan Mullen set it on fire this year.
They need massive scheme overhaul.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: MrNubbz on December 30, 2018, 09:32:04 PM
Been a long time since Harbaugh spent the night with him.
That was wrong but funny
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Mdot21 on December 31, 2018, 01:15:24 PM
The OL still isn’t up to par and it’s pretty sad that in 4 years Karan Higdon is hands down the best RB that Jim’s developed. 

Don’t get me wrong, I think his offenses suck and so does his philosophy, but they’d have look a lot better with an elite level OL and an elite RB. 

He landed his best RB prospect yet in the 2019 class, and the guard prospects look pretty good. But offensive tackle still seems to be the weak spot in his recruiting. 
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: SuperMario on January 01, 2019, 02:35:26 PM
Something has to change offensively. As I was watching Baker Mayfield almost come back and beat the Ravens, it hit me, that Michigan’s offense is not only ineffective vs better teams, but it’s also incredibly boring.

Looking back, this was one of the most boring 10 win seasons I can remember. They simply are not a fun team to watch. I would honestly rather watch a 7-8 win RichRod team than this 10 win Harbaugh team.

It’s difficult to determine if it’s Pep or Harbaugh, but the offense has not evolved with as the game has evolved over the last 15 years. 

I’m hopeful something changes heading into 2019. My preference is that there’s a change with Pep and at qb. Those two changes will help us see if Harbaugh is actually the problem.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Mdot21 on January 02, 2019, 02:11:43 AM
Something has to change offensively. As I was watching Baker Mayfield almost come back and beat the Ravens, it hit me, that Michigan’s offense is not only ineffective vs better teams, but it’s also incredibly boring.

Looking back, this was one of the most boring 10 win seasons I can remember. They simply are not a fun team to watch. I would honestly rather watch a 7-8 win RichRod team than this 10 win Harbaugh team.

It’s difficult to determine if it’s Pep or Harbaugh, but the offense has not evolved with as the game has evolved over the last 15 years.

I’m hopeful something changes heading into 2019. My preference is that there’s a change with Pep and at qb. Those two changes will help us see if Harbaugh is actually the problem.
Pep has taken another job sounds like, and the problem isn’t the QB or Pep, it’s Harbaugh. It’s his boring, stupid offense with his fingerprints all over it.
Shea was actually pretty good all things considered. You saw how bad Speight, O’Korn, and Peters looked playing in this shit show offense for these stupid coaches, right? McCaffrey has shown next to nothing and newsflash: Joe Milton sucks at playing QB. Better pray to god that Shea doesn’t get hurt or 2019 will be ugly as shit. 
In other news, TE Zach Gentry has declared for the NFL draft. Which makes no sense to me, seeing as how he has some ways to go as a blocker still and he dropped more big key passes in the biggest games this season than any WR/TE that I’ve ever seen at Michigan. Should’ve stayed in school and improved. 
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Temp430 on January 02, 2019, 06:48:22 AM
I think Michigan will be decent in 2019 with Patterson's return.   The OL should continue to improve.  The defense is more of a question mark but should be solid at a minimum.    So, decent in 2019 but I'm sure I'll be thinking Big Ten title contender by Summer.   Michigan's large recruiting class is pretty good.  Michigan has yet to out recruit Ohio State IMO which is something they'll have to do if they want to beat them.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: ELA on January 02, 2019, 02:33:30 PM
If they can get the other starting CB David Long to return as well- whoa.
Long declared for the draft
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Mdot21 on January 03, 2019, 02:42:32 PM
Long declared for the draft
Always made more sense for him to leave early than Hill imo. 
Long is taller, bigger, and faster than Hill. Wouldn’t shock me to see Long go late 1st or 2nd round if he blows up the combine, which I bet he will. He was a track star in high school, very athletic kid.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: SuperMario on January 04, 2019, 08:43:23 PM
Pep has taken another job sounds like, and the problem isn’t the QB or Pep, it’s Harbaugh. It’s his boring, stupid offense with his fingerprints all over it.
Shea was actually pretty good all things considered. You saw how bad Speight, O’Korn, and Peters looked playing in this shit show offense for these stupid coaches, right? McCaffrey has shown next to nothing and newsflash: Joe Milton sucks at playing QB. Better pray to god that Shea doesn’t get hurt or 2019 will be ugly as shit.
In other news, TE Zach Gentry has declared for the NFL draft. Which makes no sense to me, seeing as how he has some ways to go as a blocker still and he dropped more big key passes in the biggest games this season than any WR/TE that I’ve ever seen at Michigan. Should’ve stayed in school and improved.
Brandon Peters actually played ok. The fact that Speight was the starting qb tells me that the coaching staff has no grasp at deterring the best an on the roster. I believe that was true in 2018 as well. Say what you will, but Shea did nothing to wow me. He did have a solid completion percentage, but when you throw to your tight ends a million times, or Nico and DPJ catch wvwrything, I’m not sure how much of that’s on the qb.
Shea didn’t lose games, but I’m not sure he went out and won them either.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Temp430 on January 07, 2019, 02:31:58 PM
As mentioned on the Ohio State off season thread Michigan's DL coach Greg Mattison will be the Buckeyes next DC.


https://www.detroitnews.com/story/sports/college/university-michigan/wolverines/2019/01/07/defensive-line-coach-greg-mattison-departs-michigan-ohio-state/2503884002/ (https://www.detroitnews.com/story/sports/college/university-michigan/wolverines/2019/01/07/defensive-line-coach-greg-mattison-departs-michigan-ohio-state/2503884002/)


Mattison's sizable contract was up and there were rumors of him retiring but this is a surprise.   I'm guessing Michigan decided not to extend his contract.    Also rumors that Ohio State is talking to Michigan LB coach Al Washington and Michigan DC Brown may be off to be head coach at Temple.

I've been waiting for a shake up on the offensive side of the program.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Temp430 on January 08, 2019, 11:44:39 AM
LB coach Al Washington to Ohio State.  If you can't beat 'em join 'em I guess.  I think this makes DC Brown to Temple more likely since Washington was one of his guys.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Mdot21 on January 08, 2019, 01:29:45 PM
LB coach Al Washington to Ohio State.  If you can't beat 'em join 'em I guess.  I think this makes DC Brown to Temple more likely since Washington was one of his guys.
Not sure it means anything in regards to Don Brown. 
I have to admit, as much as I’ve enjoyed Don Brown’s defenses dominating over-marched opponents, his defenses have a really bad habit of not showing up in the big games vs the best teams.
Ideally I’d like him to stay and hire some fresh blood that might bring some new ideas and wrinkles. Not sure he’s ever going to change his “we have to play man to man coverage across the board” MO though. Works great vs most teams. Works very badly vs teams that actually have the skill talent to dice it up. See: PSU last year or OSU this year.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Mdot21 on January 09, 2019, 08:29:31 PM
Class of 2020 OT Myles Hinton of Georgia- a 5* and the #1 OT and a top 10 player in the nation in the 247Composite- and little brother of Michigan signee DT Chris Hinton commits to- Stanford. 

Man the hits just keep on coming. Myles Hinton’s CRYSTAL BALLZ were 100% Michigan. He was a heavy lean to Michigan. Going to Stanford. 

Harbaugh can’t get jack shit right it seems like. Probably his worst 2 months ever as coach. 
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Entropy on January 10, 2019, 12:46:28 PM
to be fair.. sometimes people want to create their own shadows and not live under a relatives...  
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Mdot21 on January 10, 2019, 02:15:47 PM
to be fair.. sometimes people want to create their own shadows and not live under a relatives...  
Harbaugh shit the bed here imo. This one was a layup with mom and dad heavily in Michigan’s corner. 
Two ELITE 5* plug and play OTs he should’ve had in back to back recruiting years in in-stater Logan Brown and Myles Hinton and he gets nada. 
And this is exactly why Michigan’s OL sucks vs the good teams starting a 6’3 tackle in Runyon Jr and a guy who won’t sniff the NFL in JBB. 
If Harbaugh wants to run his stupid boring offense he needs to starting getting elite tackles with elite size elite length and elite athleticism like those two. 
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Entropy on January 10, 2019, 02:30:53 PM
thanks.... You'd be closer to the situation.   
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: MaximumSam on January 10, 2019, 03:33:53 PM
Sounds like Bama co-OC Josh Gattis not going to Maryland, instead going to Michigan
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on January 10, 2019, 03:35:54 PM
Yeah but....


Is he a Michigan man?
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: ELA on January 10, 2019, 03:37:20 PM
Hot commodity.  Wonder how much more Michigan offered?
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Mdot21 on January 10, 2019, 03:54:49 PM
Yeah but....


Is he a Michigan man?
F that Michigan man noise. Go out and hire the best people regardless of ties.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Mdot21 on January 10, 2019, 04:13:13 PM
Have to think this means Pep Hamilton is on his way out. 

Even if Harbaugh doesn’t turn over the reigns it’s an upgrade for the simple fact that Gattis is a waaaaaay better recruiter than Pep. Pep was maybe the worst recruiter on that staff. Gattis is a hot shot recruiter who will be a big boost to a staff that just lost two great recruiters in Washington & Mattison. 

Have to think Gattis must’ve gotten some assurances he’d get the reigns and do what he wants on offense. Otherwise, why take the job ? 
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: ELA on January 10, 2019, 04:19:51 PM
Jeff Ermann saying Gattis took the Maryland offer and shopped it around for a better one.  Could add some juice to the Michigan-Maryland game next year

https://twitter.com/Jeff_Ermann/status/1083468060667850752
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Mdot21 on January 10, 2019, 04:21:52 PM
It did say co-OC right?  I assume that means Pep is staying
Been rumors for months that Pep wouldn’t be back next year and was told to go look for an NFL job.
They didn’t have any open offensive staff positions. Only had two defensive positions open. Think this means Pep is toast. He’s dead weight. Shit recruiter, shit OC, AND they pay him over $1 million a year. Insanity. No one is dying to pay that clown $1.2 million a year. Make no sense that Michigan pays him that kind of money. Harbaugh just hooking up his boy right there. If Pep was on the open market he’d have a tough time getting an OC job let alone one that pays him that kind of dough.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Mdot21 on January 10, 2019, 04:36:11 PM
Liking the hire more and more just reading about this guys chops as a recruiter and the work he did with Penn State and Bama’s WRs. 

Michigan has 3 elite talents at WR coming into their jr seasons in DPJ, Black, and Nico, and a pair of talented kids going into their sophomore year in Ronnie Bell and Oliver Martin. They are also bribing in a very talented frosh in Cornelius Johnson. 

With a little bit of luck in the health department and some development that WR crew could really take off next season if this guy is allowed to change that offense around. 

Not many teams will have a WR crew as talented as this Michigan one next year. Would be a huge shame if it didn’t make a big leap forward with Patterson coming back and a healthy Black and a new OC and WRs coach.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: ELA on January 10, 2019, 04:46:36 PM
Liking the hire more and more just reading about this guys chops as a recruiter and the work he did with Penn State and Bama’s WRs.

Michigan has 3 elite talents at WR coming into their jr seasons in DPJ, Black, and Nico, and a pair of talented kids going into their sophomore year in Ronnie Bell and Oliver Martin. They are also bribing in a very talented frosh in Cornelius Johnson.

With a little bit of luck in the health department and some development that WR crew could really take off next season if this guy is allowed to change that offense around.

Not many teams will have a WR crew as talented as this Michigan one next year. Would be a huge shame if it didn’t make a big leap forward with Patterson coming back and a healthy Black and a new OC and WRs coach.
PSU WR fell off a cliff without him
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Mdot21 on January 10, 2019, 05:10:36 PM
PSU WR fell off a cliff without him
He seems to be an ace recruiter and a WR guru. Two things Michigan desperately needed right now. 
If he can take Black, DPJ, and Nico to the next level and ensure that 80% of the targets go to the WRs and not the fricken TEs- than yeah- he will be a home run hire. Black is so smooth, DPJ is so athletic, and Nico is just so damn big. They compliment each other very well.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on January 10, 2019, 05:19:27 PM
F that Michigan man noise. Go out and hire the best people regardless of ties.
Okay, he coached the WRs for a year at Western. He good.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Mdot21 on January 10, 2019, 10:37:43 PM
press release said Gattis was the OC. No Co in the title and also said he would be calling the plays.

That means- bye bye Pep. Probably see Josh McDaniels of the Patriots lil bro Ben McDaniels get hired as the QB coach and have Gattis be the OC/WR coach. 

Sounds like Boston College Co-DC Campille and Penn State’s DL coach Spencer are the top two defenisve targets on the board to replace GMatt and Al Washington.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: MaximumSam on January 11, 2019, 06:49:40 AM
I think it's a little weird Bama didn't seem interested in keeping him.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Mdot21 on January 11, 2019, 12:20:15 PM
I think it's a little weird Bama didn't seem interested in keeping him.
Oh please. Bama just lost basically their entire offensive staff from the best offense they’ve ever had. 
Locksley got the HC job at Maryland, Dan Enos got the OC job at Miami, Gattis got the OC job at Michigan and their OL coach Brent Key left for Co-OC and OL coach at Georgia Tech.
That’s what happens when you have a record setting offense. You lose coaches. They all left for promotions. Enos and Gattis drop the CO title and get full control, Locksley got a head job in the P5, and the OL coach also got a bump in pay and better title. They all did.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Mdot21 on January 11, 2019, 12:23:15 PM
Boston College Co-DC Anthony Campanile hired by Michigan. Sounds like he’ll be coaching Safeties and Chris Partridge will go back to coaching LBs.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: MaximumSam on January 11, 2019, 12:26:01 PM
Oh please. Bama just lost basically their entire offensive staff from the best offense they’ve ever had.
Locksley got the HC job at Maryland, Dan Enos got the OC job at Miami, Gattis got the OC job at Michigan and their OL coach Brent Key left for Co-OC and OL coach at Georgia Tech.
That’s what happens when you have a record setting offense. You lose coaches. They all left for promotions. Enos and Gattis drop the CO title and get full control, Locksley got a head job in the P5, and the OL coach also got a bump in pay and better title. They all did.
But...Gattis didn't get a promotion.  With Locksley gone, he would seemingly be OC at Alabama with an amazing amount of talent returning. Instead, he was going to Maryland and then Michigan to also be the OC.  I'm not knocking him as a coach, I just don't understand what the reasoning is there.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Mdot21 on January 11, 2019, 12:41:27 PM
But...Gattis didn't get a promotion.  With Locksley gone, he would seemingly be OC at Alabama with an amazing amount of talent returning. Instead, he was going to Maryland and then Michigan to also be the OC.  I'm not knocking him as a coach, I just don't understand what the reasoning is there.
He’d have more than likely had to share the CO OC title with Enos assuming both stayed. More money, no sharing of title. Easy choice to make.
He was a done deal to go to Maryland with Locksley for a month anyway. Bama knew he wasn’t going to stay. Only thing that changed was the Michigan offer at the last possible second to snatch him away from Maryland.
Bama only has the RB coach left on staff. Something tells me that offense is going to go backwards drastically in 2019. Lost it’s entire staff and Georgia and Clemson sort of laid down the blue print to expose Tua.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: ELA on January 11, 2019, 12:49:25 PM
Enos just named OC at Miami, so...
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Anonymous Coward on January 11, 2019, 12:50:16 PM
I think it's a little weird Bama didn't seem interested in keeping him.
Just getting back from a four-week vacation (Utah Nat'l Parks in the offseason!!) and am slow on the uptake, but if you are implying this could be similar to the Nussmeier hire (...) maybe (...) because always maybe. But the situations aren't very similar. 
For one, Harbaugh, not Hoke, made the hire and he has been a great hirer of coaching talent**. For two, whereas Alabama fans were cheering Nuss out the door, they are clearly disappointed about losing Gattis. And in the neutral-but-different-than-Nuss category, Gattis hasn't ever been an OC. That last one remains a legitimate question/concern/curiosity, but in his last two stops, he's been part of two "highest end" offenses, likely absorbed plenty, and is a fast rider for other reasons. I.E., no one is questioning his recruiting or WR chops.
**(this one is worth spending an extra second on, however, since both of Harbaugh's failed hires - Drevno and Pep - have been OCs. Skepticism is healthy. However, both of those were lapdog hires, whereas Gattis is the first Harbaugh OC to be reported to take over play calling. Maybe that doesn't qualify as a paradigm shift, but it is an extra reason for positivity.)
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Mdot21 on January 11, 2019, 01:01:02 PM
Gattis was a part of Moorehead’s 2017 Penn State offense and the 2018 “Greatest offense ever” at Bama. 

Both those offense were wide open, spread it out, up tempo, fast paced, get the ball in playmakers hands in space and let them do their thing. 

Style of offenses that are drastically different to what Michigan has been running. As long as he’s allowed to implement those kinds of changes I love the hire. The real story of his success or failure will be just how much control of that offense that Harbaugh hands over. Jim can be difficult to work for and get along with. And JIM has been the OC of these shit show offenses. No one else.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: MaximumSam on January 11, 2019, 01:01:50 PM
Just getting back from a four-week vacation (Utah Nat'l Parks in the offseason!!) and am slow on the uptake, but if you are implying this could be similar to the Nussmeier hire (...) maybe (...) because always maybe. But the situations aren't very similar.
For one, Harbaugh, not Hoke, made the hire and he has been a great hirer of coaching talent**. For two, whereas Alabama fans were cheering Nuss out the door, they are clearly disappointed about losing Gattis. And in the neutral-but-different-than-Nuss category, Gattis hasn't ever been an OC. That last one remains a legitimate question/concern/curiosity, but in his last two stops, he's been part of two "highest end" offenses, likely absorbed plenty, and is a fast rider for other reasons. I.E., no one is questioning his recruiting or WR chops.
**(this one is worth spending an extra second on, however, since both of Harbaugh's failed hires - Drevno and Pep - have been OCs. Skepticism is healthy. However, both of those were lapdog hires, whereas Gattis is the first Harbaugh OC to be reported to take over play calling. Maybe that doesn't qualify as a paradigm shift, but it is an extra reason for positivity.)
I'm not implying anything.  Alabama had a historically good offense this year.  THE OC gets a head coaching job.  The position coaches get better jobs.  Gattis was the co-OC.  One would logically assume that Alabama might want some continuity on the offensive coaching staff given how good they were and how many people are returning.  Unless Gattis just didn't like Alabama, he didn't have the option to stick around as offensive coordinator.  I just don't understand why.  
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Mdot21 on January 11, 2019, 01:26:26 PM
Enos just named OC at Miami, so...
Bama247 saying Saban is zeroing in on ND OC Chip Long.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: ELA on January 11, 2019, 01:40:25 PM
I think it's both a good hire, and clear Saban wanted to clear house on offense.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: MaximumSam on January 11, 2019, 05:34:17 PM
I think it's both a good hire, and clear Saban wanted to clear house on offense.
But isn't that weird? Far be it from me to question Saban, but cleaning house on offense after last season seems...odd.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: ELA on January 11, 2019, 05:36:52 PM
But isn't that weird? Far be it from me to question Saban, but cleaning house on offense after last season seems...odd.
So does leaving MSU to go live in a swamp :96:
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Honestbuckeye on January 11, 2019, 08:45:28 PM
Seems like a really good choice- especially if he is allowed to call plays. 

Wolverines have 3 elite level WRs and a damn good QB,  plus most of the offensive players back.  

A potential for some dynamic offense.   
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Mdot21 on January 12, 2019, 03:52:38 PM
Seems like a really good choice- especially if he is allowed to call plays.

Wolverines have 3 elite level WRs and a damn good QB,  plus most of the offensive players back.  

A potential for some dynamic offense.  
Press release said Gattis would be calling plays. I have my doubts Harbaugh will back off. We’ll see.
Michigan hasn’t had this much WR talent going into a season since like 2004 with Braylon, Avant, and Breaston. 
They also brought in two frosh from the 2019 class that look very promising in slot ninja Giles Jackson and a kid that honestly looks like a Tarik Black clone in Cornelius Johnson.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on January 12, 2019, 06:04:11 PM
Just getting back from a four-week vacation (Utah Nat'l Parks in the offseason!!)
Did ya get up on a little Zion and Bryce? 
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Anonymous Coward on January 13, 2019, 07:25:58 PM
Did ya get up on a little Zion and Bryce?
Thanks for asking, man!🙃
Bryce and Escalante didn't fit our road map. That'll be an incentive to come back for the next trip! I'd really love to win the park's lottery to be one of the 10-20 people per day with permission to see The Wave. And despite having two nights in Zion for Angel's Landing, Observation Point, etc., we'll definitely be back for the Narrows, the Subway, and Kolob.
Ten nights in all. Got in like 70 miles of primitive hiking (some was less than primitive - true wilderness, which is the real dream) all throughout the UT, with a touch in AZ.
Usually stayed in airbnbs or NP lodges for the wife but also satisfied my cold camping itch: At Goblin Valley, we holed up in a yurt (wish I had brought my telescope!) and at Canyonlands, I set up my tent a few steps from the cliff at Island in the Sky. It got down to 16*F that night. Brrrrrr!
Flew into SLC and after grabbing bear mace and booze, we were off to Capitol Reef NP for a day and night. Then Goblin Valley and Little Widhorse. Then Arches NP, then Canyonlands NP. Did Monument Valley (was minorly bummed at how that's less hiking than a restaurant and driving around). A day in Antelope Canyon plus Coral Pink Sand Dunes. And finally the 48h at Zion.
From talks with rangers, the parks seemed to top out at 50-200 people per day. And very few of them were hiking. Stuff of dreams.
Crazy how many times we saw tracks that clearly belonged to a big cat (cougar, not a dog). Was glad to have the bear mace. But, unlike a grizzly, you always wonder what your odds are of knowing you have to ward the cat off before it's at your neck and game over.
We finished with 24-hours in Vegas. Which is probably the ideal amount of Vegas for Beth and I. And after showing up late and lying about it being our honeymoon, the Bellagio upgraded us to the stupidest suite I may ever see - penthouse, private elevator, overlooking the famous fountain. So so so perfect and dumb.
Looking back, wow. Never seen anything like Utah. Well I went as a child but had forgotten. Still, it was the right length of trip because just as it was ending, we were ready to be elsewhere, home with families in Algonac, MI then across Canada to Buffalo, NY. So whew - we've put in some miles.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: MrNubbz on January 13, 2019, 07:51:43 PM
Crazy how many times we saw tracks that clearly belonged to a big cat (cougar, not a dog). Was glad to have the bear mace. But, unlike a grizzly, you always wonder what your odds are of knowing you have to ward the cat off before it's at your neck and game over.
Nice write up it's been more than a few years - I've had brushes with black bears in Canada.Happened to be fishing off of a 20 ft ledge when I realized there were wild berry bushes all over the place a bear passed prolly 50 yds away but fortunately going parallel.Nothing like looking around the shore and seeing Bruin paw prints everywhere.Fortunately I was much faster than my fishing buddies.But cougars don't make any noise when stalking.Bears are used to being the baddest thing around so they don't care how much racket they make - they take what they want
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: MrNubbz on January 13, 2019, 07:59:55 PM
Michigan hasn’t had this much WR talent going into a season since like 2004 with Braylon, Avant, and Breaston.
Truth.Not sure about Manningham but wasn't Arrington on that team also
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: ELA on January 13, 2019, 08:13:25 PM
Truth.Not sure about Manningham but wasn't Arrington on that team also
I think they were both freshmen in 2005?
Jason Avant = most underrated UM player in my lifetime
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Anonymous Coward on January 13, 2019, 08:28:46 PM
Nice write up it's been more than a few years - I've had brushes with black bears in Canada.Happened to be fishing off of a 20 ft ledge when I realized there were wild berry bushes all over the place a bear passed prolly 50 yds away but fortunately going parallel.Nothing like looking around the shore and seeing Bruin paw prints everywhere.Fortunately I was much faster than my fishing buddies.But cougars don't make any noise when stalking.Bears are used to being the baddest thing around so they don't care how much racket they make - they take what they want
Hahaha, faster than your buddies? A little dark but that's all it takes. 😂
It's easy to have respect for bears. Like you say, biggest and baddest thing out there. But it's kind of reassuring to know that encounters almost always give an opportunity for smart gesturing to negotiate a way out on both sides.
And sometimes it's a pure mistake and they just lumber by with apathy. I can't imagine people and cougars accidentally stumble into one another that often. Big cats are too perceptive and intentional.
Anyway, it's probably against policy, but I FedEx'd the bear mace home (it was like $60 with the holster -- too much to want to trash or just donate) and will be happy to have it in the Adirondacks this summer. I've never hiked with a firearm. A month "making it" in Alaska wilderness (like, Denali NP and Bristol Bay) is a goal before I die, and I'll obviously have a firearm then. But mace is the readiest I'll choose to be until then.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on January 13, 2019, 09:16:48 PM
Thanks for asking, man!🙃
Bryce and Escalante didn't fit our road map. That'll be an incentive to come back for the next trip! I'd really love to win the park's lottery to be one of the 10-20 people per day with permission to see The Wave. And despite having two nights in Zion for Angel's Landing, Observation Point, etc., we'll definitely be back for the Narrows, the Subway, and Kolob.
Ten nights in all. Got in like 70 miles of primitive hiking (some was less than primitive - true wilderness, which is the real dream) all throughout the UT, with a touch in AZ.
Usually stayed in airbnbs or NP lodges for the wife but also satisfied my cold camping itch: At Goblin Valley, we holed up in a yurt (wish I had brought my telescope!) and at Canyonlands, I set up my tent a few steps from the cliff at Island in the Sky. It got down to 16*F that night. Brrrrrr!
Flew into SLC and after grabbing bear mace and booze, we were off to Capitol Reef NP for a day and night. Then Goblin Valley and Little Widhorse. Then Arches NP, then Canyonlands NP. Did Monument Valley (was minorly bummed at how that's less hiking than a restaurant and driving around). A day in Antelope Canyon plus Coral Pink Sand Dunes. And finally the 48h at Zion.
From talks with rangers, the parks seemed to top out at 50-200 people per day. And very few of them were hiking. Stuff of dreams.
Crazy how many times we saw tracks that clearly belonged to a big cat (cougar, not a dog). Was glad to have the bear mace. But, unlike a grizzly, you always wonder what your odds are of knowing you have to ward the cat off before it's at your neck and game over.
We finished with 24-hours in Vegas. Which is probably the ideal amount of Vegas for Beth and I. And after showing up late and lying about it being our honeymoon, the Bellagio upgraded us to the stupidest suite I may ever see - penthouse, private elevator, overlooking the famous fountain. So so so perfect and dumb.
Looking back, wow. Never seen anything like Utah. Well I went as a child but had forgotten. Still, it was the right length of trip because just as it was ending, we were ready to be elsewhere, home with families in Algonac, MI then across Canada to Buffalo, NY. So whew - we've put in some miles.
Yeah, you pretty much conquered Utah. My folks grew up out there, and retired to the Zion area about a dozen years ago. It is definitely best in the off season. Good call. 
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on January 13, 2019, 10:39:06 PM
Very jealous, AC... Glad you had a blast. Sounds amazing  
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Anonymous Coward on January 13, 2019, 10:51:38 PM
Very cool about your origins; had no clue. I'm not sure if your parents retired around Zion/Springdale or a small hop away, like St. George. 

It's a real embarrassment of riches out there - state wide, truly, but somehow even more so in that SW corner. We had originally hoped to include St. George. We were basically there, but it just didn't fit. Ditto Kanarraville and New Harmony.

If you get into the nitty gritty, including not just parks/towns but named hikes/sites, there may be a literal hundred reasons (on our scratch papers and word docs) begging us back to that SW corner of UT. And that's just what Google helped us know about.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Anonymous Coward on January 14, 2019, 12:23:52 AM
Very jealous, AC... Glad you had a blast. Sounds amazing  
Thanks man! This probably isn't weird, at least I hope not, but when we were out there I did briefly think of you and medina, just based on past posts about the great outdoors.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on January 14, 2019, 08:09:43 AM
Very cool about your origins; had no clue. I'm not sure if your parents retired around Zion/Springdale or a small hop away, like St. George.

It's a real embarrassment of riches out there - state wide, truly, but somehow even more so in that SW corner. We had originally hoped to include St. George. We were basically there, but it just didn't fit. Ditto Kanarraville and New Harmony.

If you get into the nitty gritty, including not just parks/towns but named hikes/sites, there may be a literal hundred reasons (on our scratch papers and word docs) begging us back to that SW corner of UT. And that's just what Google helped us know about.
They are in St George. 
Lake Powell is a good trip, and while there you'd be wise to drop down into AZ and check out the slot canyons. 
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Anonymous Coward on January 15, 2019, 12:22:11 PM
But...Gattis didn't get a promotion.  With Locksley gone, he would seemingly be OC at Alabama with an amazing amount of talent returning. Instead, he was going to Maryland and then Michigan to also be the OC.  I'm not knocking him as a coach, I just don't understand what the reasoning is there.
It's realistic that he would have remained co-OC at Alabama. Leaving to become sole OC is not quite a lateral move when the HC also offers you full control of the offense.
Locksley may have been offering that. We've been skeptical about whether Harbaugh was offering that (it'd be unprecedented for him), but JH just admitted he's handing over the keys on his podcast. Meanwhile, it's now being reported that Saban gave Gattis a "20-minute verbal lashing" when he expressed his interest in leaving for UMd.
I think those are significant changes in info that's public. So rather than it being weird that Gattis didn't stay at Alabama or that "Saban didn't want him," I think it's at least as safe (and arguably truer) to say Saban did want Gatttis** and frame Gattis's motivations as pretty normal: He wanted full freedom and a guarantee for no "Co-." And perhaps he'd have had neither in Tuscaloosa.


**("When Coach Harbaugh called, it kind of caught me off guard because I had just left a meeting with Nick Saban getting my butt chewed out for 20 minutes telling him I was leaving and he was trying to get me to stay. It did not go over well.")
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Mdot21 on January 15, 2019, 01:09:19 PM
It's realistic that he would have remained co-OC at Alabama. Leaving to become sole OC is not quite a lateral move when the HC also offers you full control of the offense.
Locksley may have been offering that. We've been skeptical about whether Harbaugh was offering that (it'd be unprecedented for him), but JH just admitted he's handing over the keys on his podcast. Meanwhile, it's now being reported that Saban gave Gattis a "20-minute verbal lashing" when he expressed his interest in leaving for UMd.
I think those are significant changes in info that's public. So rather than it being weird that Gattis didn't stay at Alabama or that "Saban didn't want him," I think it's at least as safe (and arguably truer) to say Saban did want Gatttis** and frame Gattis's motivations as pretty normal: He wanted full freedom and a guarantee for no "Co-." And perhaps he'd have had neither in Tuscaloosa.


**("When Coach Harbaugh called, it kind of caught me off guard because I had just left a meeting with Nick Saban getting my butt chewed out for 20 minutes telling him I was leaving and he was trying to get me to stay. It did not go over well.")
yeah pretty easy to see his reasoning. $1.5 million of them. That's what Gattis' annual salary will be at Michigan. And the press release of his hiring said he'd be calling the plays and on Harbaugh's own podcast it was explicitly stated that Gattis would have full control.
So in conclusion- huge pay increase, full control, and dropping the CO title = no brainer. Anyone would do it. Sort of like Mattison going to OSU. You get offered double the money and more control you take it.
What makes no sense to me and strikes me as weird- is Dan Enos going to Miami.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Mdot21 on January 15, 2019, 01:13:20 PM
surprising no one- Michigan OL Nolan Ulizio is transferring.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Anonymous Coward on January 15, 2019, 02:34:31 PM
What makes no sense to me and strikes me as weird- is Dan Enos going to Miami.
Sounds like Saban was blindsided by the idea that Locksley, Enos and Gattis would all be gone.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: 847badgerfan on January 15, 2019, 03:02:33 PM
Quite the offseason in Ann Arbor. Helluva 17 days so far. Jeez.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Mdot21 on January 15, 2019, 04:09:59 PM
Quite the offseason in Ann Arbor. Helluva 17 days so far. Jeez.
it's been a doozy. That's for sure.
I'm really liking the hires of Gattis and Campanile. Both of those look like home runs on paper. They got an upgrade at OC by snatching Gattis and dumping Pep and an upgrade at Safety coach and LB coach with Patridge likely heading back to LB and Campanile taking over safety.

I'm thinking it'd be next to impossible to get an upgrade at DL coach. Can't do better than Mattison. He's one of the very best.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Anonymous Coward on January 15, 2019, 04:17:12 PM
Quite the offseason in Ann Arbor. Helluva 17 days so far. Jeez.
You're not wrong.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Anonymous Coward on January 15, 2019, 04:27:45 PM
I'm thinking it'd be next to impossible to get an upgrade at DL coach. Can't do better than Mattison. He's one of the very best.
It may be true, especially in his prime. I think he probably still has it, but an interesting thing about the Michigan DL, which has been up there with the very best nationally across the last 4 or so seasons, is how much they feasted on Hoke era recruiting. Harbaugh has been impressive at recruiting and developing DEs (Mattison clearly never lost that), but the best of these recent M DLs were driven by highest end college tackles (Hurst, Glasgow, Henry, etc.). And now those guys are going extinct in A2. Kemp and Dwumfour aren't garbage, but they're merely above average among Big Ten starters, which's a massive dropoff from recent editions. And this isn't covering depth issues either. Even with Mattison, 2019 appeared dire on the interior DL. Crazy to say.

Thank goodness JH is handing over his offense. Because with all that talent returning, it'd be a crime to not let them try to save a defense for once.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: 847badgerfan on January 15, 2019, 04:30:46 PM
it's been a doozy. That's for sure.
I'm really liking the hires of Gattis and Campanile. Both of those look like home runs on paper. They got an upgrade at OC by snatching Gattis and dumping Pep and an upgrade at Safety coach and LB coach with Patridge likely heading back to LB and Campanile taking over safety.

I'm thinking it'd be next to impossible to get an upgrade at DL coach. Can't do better than Mattison. He's one of the very best.
I wonder if John Palermo would be available. He seems to be taking it easy, but he is very good at what he does, although abrasive. I remember him coaching my kid at camp in Madison. Definitely old-school. Might fit in.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: MaximumSam on January 15, 2019, 04:32:20 PM
It's realistic that he would have remained co-OC at Alabama. Leaving to become sole OC is not quite a lateral move when the HC also offers you full control of the offense.
Locksley may have been offering that. We've been skeptical about whether Harbaugh was offering that (it'd be unprecedented for him), but JH just admitted he's handing over the keys on his podcast. Meanwhile, it's now being reported that Saban gave Gattis a "20-minute verbal lashing" when he expressed his interest in leaving for UMd.
I think those are significant changes in info that's public. So rather than it being weird that Gattis didn't stay at Alabama or that "Saban didn't want him," I think it's at least as safe (and arguably truer) to say Saban did want Gatttis** and frame Gattis's motivations as pretty normal: He wanted full freedom and a guarantee for no "Co-." And perhaps he'd have had neither in Tuscaloosa.


**("When Coach Harbaugh called, it kind of caught me off guard because I had just left a meeting with Nick Saban getting my butt chewed out for 20 minutes telling him I was leaving and he was trying to get me to stay. It did not go over well.")
I mean, I get that Gattis was basically a glorified receiver coach and it is an upgrade to go be the OC at Michigan.  I don't get Saban letting all of his offensive staff go.  It's just kind of weird, with Gattis apparently not liked enough to be the OC at Alabama but now he's the OC at Michigan and Harbaugh is supposedly going to let him run the offense as he wants.  On paper it is good - Michigan really needs to open up things on offense a bit to be a real contender, and Gattis brings experience with two very good offenses.  But I have my doubts on how this is all going to work.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Anonymous Coward on January 15, 2019, 08:17:35 PM
You formed that opinion (that Saban let his offensive staff go) at a time when it was still probable. But now you have good reason to change that opinion. After verbally abusing Gattis over his decision to leave for Maryland and trying to convince him to stay, it doesn't make sense to believe Saban "let Gattis go" unless you believe that story Gattis told -- about Saban being pissed, stressing to keep him and Gattis leaving anyway -- was made up.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Mdot21 on January 15, 2019, 09:22:07 PM
You formed that opinion (that Saban let his offensive staff go) at a time when it was still probable. But now you have good reason to change that opinion. After verbally abusing Gattis over his decision to leave for Maryland and trying to convince him to stay, it doesn't make sense to believe Saban "let Gattis go" unless you believe that story Gattis told -- about Saban being pissed, stressing to keep him and Gattis leaving anyway -- was made up.
There is zero chance that Saban wanted to purge his entire offensive staff that just engineered his offense to be the best in the history of Alabama’s program and the best offense Saban has ever coached anywhere at any level just so he could go hire a fricken loser like Sark. Adding Sark after losing all that coaching talent = a disaster imo. 
My guess is those offensive coaches probably didn’t enjoy working for an anal control freak like Saban and just found better jobs that paid them more money and had the added benefit of they didn’t have to put up with Saban’s bullshit.
All 4 of the coaches leaving got job title promotions and more money. Hard to say there is anything weird about that at all. The only one that is a little weird to me is Dan Enos. Because with everyone already bolting he was in line to be the next OC. The OC spot at Miami is a clear cut demotion for the OC job at Bama.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Anonymous Coward on January 15, 2019, 09:56:40 PM
I'm quite sure Enos, Locksley and Gattis enjoyed all that winning**. I'm also fairly sure that Saban is really disappointed that he didn't manage this better. Losing those three was not on purpose.

**(they didn't leave to get out of Dodge, IMO; they left to further their careers ... with the possible exception of Enos)
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Hawkinole on January 16, 2019, 12:30:48 AM
In other news, TE Zach Gentry has declared for the NFL draft. Which makes no sense to me, seeing as how he has some ways to go as a blocker still and he dropped more big key passes in the biggest games this season than any WR/TE that I’ve ever seen at Michigan. Should’ve stayed in school and improved.
Probably not the best year for Zach Gentry to declare early at the TE position. There are other tight ends coming out early.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: MaximumSam on January 16, 2019, 02:36:00 AM
You formed that opinion (that Saban let his offensive staff go) at a time when it was still probable. But now you have good reason to change that opinion. After verbally abusing Gattis over his decision to leave for Maryland and trying to convince him to stay, it doesn't make sense to believe Saban "let Gattis go" unless you believe that story Gattis told -- about Saban being pissed, stressing to keep him and Gattis leaving anyway -- was made up.
There's almost no question he let him go. The question is why wouldn't he give him the same opportunity Michigan gave him so he would stay.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Anonymous Coward on January 16, 2019, 09:57:22 AM
There's almost no question he let him go. The question is why wouldn't he give him the same opportunity Michigan gave him so he would stay.
I think that's an unfounded opinion, whereas the "Saban really tried to keep Gattis" opinion has at least some founding:
Gattis:

We have no evidence for Saban letting any of these guys go, but now we do have evidence for at least one of them (a) going out and getting a better job without letting Alabama in on a bidding war and (b) Saban being mad/sad about that.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Anonymous Coward on January 16, 2019, 10:01:34 AM
Probably not the best year for Zach Gentry to declare early at the TE position. There are other tight ends coming out early.
He couldn't have known about Gattis at the time but could reasonably have sensed that (major?) offensive change was coming.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: MaximumSam on January 16, 2019, 10:22:23 AM
I think that's an unfounded opinion, whereas the "Saban really tried to keep Gattis" opinion has at least some founding:
Gattis:
  • "If you look at my track record, I've been at places for a long time. I was with James Franklin for six years. Opportunities started presenting themselves and I had some tough choices to make. And, obviously, professionally and personally one of my goals was to be an offensive coordinator. That's been a lifelong dream of mine. That's something with the input that I've had and the fingerprint I've been able to leave on a lot of programs has allowed me to continue to prepare myself to put me in this position. When Coach Harbaugh called, it kind of caught me off guard because I had just left a meeting with Nick Saban getting my butt chewed out for 20 minutes telling him I was leaving and he was trying to get me to stay. It did not go over well."

We have no evidence for Saban letting any of these guys go, but now we do have evidence for at least one of them (a) going out and getting a better job without letting Alabama in on a bidding war and (b) Saban being mad/sad about that.
Right - what I'm saying is it seems pretty clear Alabama had no interest in Gattis as the offensive coordinator.  It was pretty well rumored he was going to Maryland for a long time, and Saban basically offered Gattis nothing to keep him.  My point is that it is a weird situation to let your co-offensive coordinator just walk without trying to keep him, and the only response I've heard is that Saban didn't think Gattis could be the offensive coordinator.  Well, why not?
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Anonymous Coward on January 16, 2019, 10:33:12 AM
Perhaps the best reason he couldn't be OC at Alabama is because he seemed to deliberately leave Saban in the dark and Bama out of a bidding war. Saban clearly wanted to do *something* to keep his assistant but there's not much chance for Nick to keep Gattis (or much good it can do) if his only window is 20-minutes after the fact.

The most unusual thing about the hire isn't the unfounded idea that Saban let Gattis go but the now-founded idea that Gattis didn't let Saban know about his plans.

It's plausible that Gattis could have been OC at Alabama if he wanted (or at least a step up to the "co-OC who calls plays"), but keeping Alabama in the dark made that impossible, which he was apparently fine with.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Anonymous Coward on January 16, 2019, 10:43:30 AM
Right (...) and the only response I've heard is that Saban didn't think Gattis could be the offensive coordinator.
I know you keep saying that, but where else have you heard it. Saban? Gattis? Other members of the staff? I'm clearly doubting you heard it from a reliable place.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: MaximumSam on January 16, 2019, 10:57:40 AM
I know you keep saying that, but where else have you heard it. Saban? Gattis? Other members of the staff? I'm clearly doubting you heard it from a reliable place.
Just putting the pieces together.  A guy says he's leaving because he wants to be the offensive coordinator.  So, that wasn't an option at Alabama.  Otherwise, we start getting weird theories about how he would rather be at Maryland than Alabama.  
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: 847badgerfan on January 16, 2019, 11:13:32 AM
Just putting the pieces together.  A guy says he's leaving because he wants to be the offensive coordinator.  So, that wasn't an option at Alabama.  Otherwise, we start getting weird theories about how he would rather be at Maryland than Alabama.  
This is my take. Saban would have liked to have kept him, but felt he wasn't ready to be the OC at this time. 

Enos' move is the one that puzzles me the most. He could have had the keys to the Ferrari, instead of a Focus.

We'll never hear from Saban on this, by the way. That's not how he rolls.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Anonymous Coward on January 16, 2019, 11:16:08 AM
Of course it's OK to blindly guess that's the case. I do prefer that we emphasize that no one associated with Alabama has said anything to strengthen that idea yet. Especially this new info from someone assoc'd with Bama (Gattis) that, whether Saban wanted to promote him or not, Nick was in the dark until after everything was over.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Anonymous Coward on January 16, 2019, 11:24:39 AM
Just putting the pieces together.  A guy says he's leaving because he wants to be the offensive coordinator.  So, that wasn't an option at Alabama.  Otherwise, we start getting weird theories about how he would rather be at Maryland than Alabama.  
Not to get too Bayesian, but: A weird theory with direct support is equal or better than a normal theory without any.

Gattis keeping Saban completely in the dark is definitely weird, but - apparently - true anyway. Maybe he just didn't want to be on Saban's staff anymore.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: MaximumSam on January 16, 2019, 11:26:13 AM
Of course it's OK to blindly guess that's the case. I do prefer that we emphasize that no one associated with Alabama has said anything to strengthen that idea yet. Especially this new info from someone assoc'd with Bama (Gattis) that, whether Saban wanted to promote him or not, Nick was in the dark until after everything was over.
It's not a blind guess.  It is almost certainly what happened.  There are no facts which suggest Gattis was ever considered to be the offensive coordinator at Alabama.  I just haven't really puzzled out why that's the case.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: MaximumSam on January 16, 2019, 11:27:39 AM
Not to get too Bayesian, but: A weird theory with direct support is equal or better than a normal theory without any.

Gattis keeping Saban completely in the dark is definitely weird, but - apparently - true anyway. Maybe he just didn't want to be on Saban's staff anymore.
Anything is possible, but we do have direct support that he wasn't considered the Alabama OC, and that is that he's not the Alabama OC and there is no evidence suggesting he had that option.  I mean, under your logic you and I were possible options for Alabama OC and we just didn't want it, either.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Anonymous Coward on January 16, 2019, 11:31:05 AM
It's not a blind guess.  It is almost certainly what happened.  There are no facts which suggest Gattis was ever considered to be the offensive coordinator at Alabama.  I just haven't really puzzled out why that's the case.
It doesn't take any real puzzling to build plausible scenarios thay begin with the only insider take we have:

Saban wouldn't have been incentivized to promote his WR coach unless he knew Gattis was leaving. And (despite the rumor mill), from Gattis's telling, Saban clearly didn't know that until after Gattis was gone.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Anonymous Coward on January 16, 2019, 11:33:26 AM
he's not the Alabama OC and there is no evidence suggesting he had that option.
There's equal evidence (none) that Gattis would and would not have been offered the OC position if he hadn't done the unusual thing of keeping Saban completely in the dark until being his OC was irrelevant.

I mean, under your logic you and I were possible options for Alabama OC and we just didn't want it, either.
Haha, I can't believe you want me to type this: You and I were never talented enough to get a co-OC job from Saban last year and he never expressed anger and disappointment that we took a job without his knowing that was happening.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Anonymous Coward on January 16, 2019, 11:39:33 AM
Btw, I've never rejected the possibility that Saban would not have offered Gattis the OC spot this year. I only rejected your insistence that Saban *definitely* let Gattis go without that option. Because Gattis was gone before Saban knew whether or not to give that offer.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: MaximumSam on January 16, 2019, 12:16:28 PM
It doesn't take any real puzzling to build plausible scenarios thay begin with the only insider take we have:

Saban wouldn't have been incentivized to promote his WR coach unless he knew Gattis was leaving. And (despite the rumor mill), from Gattis's telling, Saban clearly didn't know that until after Gattis was gone.
We certainly don't know that Saban was surprised.  It was reported before this meeting that Gattis was going to Maryland, Harbaugh said he heard through the grapevine that he was leaving, and somehow Nick Saban is in the dark?  Seems very unlikely.  Then they had a 20 minute conversation and that was Saban's pitch to keep him?  
Again, he wasn't offered the job, it doesn't appear likely that Saban wanted to offer him the job, and that is what the evidence very strongly suggests.  I find it weird - both Maryland and Michigan clearly thought he was ready for the job; I'm trying to figure out why Saban wouldn't think that.  In any event, it should be interesting to see how this plays out for Michigan.  I don't think Harbaugh ever coached with him.  Watching this play out might make for some good drama.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: 847badgerfan on January 16, 2019, 12:23:15 PM
Drama? In Ann Arbor?? Nah.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: FearlessF on January 16, 2019, 12:40:58 PM
Drama or not, you're stuck with Gattis
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Anonymous Coward on January 16, 2019, 12:54:37 PM
We certainly don't know that Saban was surprised.  It was reported before this meeting that Gattis was going to Maryland, Harbaugh said he heard through the grapevine that he was leaving, and somehow Nick Saban is in the dark?  Seems very unlikely.  Then they had a 20 minute conversation and that was Saban's pitch to keep him?  
According to Gattis, who would know, yes, that's when Saban got mad and tried to keep him on staff.
It doesn't appear likely that Saban wanted to offer him the job.
If you changed your wording here on purpose, then we no longer have a disagreement. 
Again, I was only ever rejecting the extent you were going to insist Saban absolutely wouldn't offer a pure OC job to his co-OC. If you step back from definitely to "likely," then we're good. 
The idea that Saban would never want Gattis as OC next year has a chance but it was wrong to conclude it past "maybe." Because we know Saban tried to keep Gattis, who was gone before Saban knew whether or not to give an OC offer. And that takes oomf out of "but he wasn't publicly offered the OC job before leaving Tuscaloosa."
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: MaximumSam on January 16, 2019, 01:21:19 PM
According to Gattis, who would know, yes, that's when Saban got mad and tried to keep him on staff.If you changed your wording here on purpose, then we no longer have a disagreement.
Again, I was only ever rejecting the extent you were going to insist Saban absolutely wouldn't offer a pure OC job to his co-OC. If you step back from definitely to "likely," then we're good.
The idea that Saban would never want Gattis as OC next year has a chance but it was wrong to conclude it past "maybe." Because we know Saban tried to keep Gattis, who was gone before Saban knew whether or not to give an OC offer. And that takes oomf out of "but he wasn't publicly offered the OC job before leaving Tuscaloosa."
Well, there are tried and true methods for trying to keep someone, and they involve money and promotions, and it doesn't appear Saban offered either.  Instead, he offered 20 minutes of tongue lashing.  Draw conclusions on that as you will.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: HailHailMSP on January 16, 2019, 02:08:28 PM
The facts-

* Gattis is a proven commodity in recruiting and player development

* Gattis has little to no experience with developing an offensive unit's identity and play-calling

Offensive coordinators are judged heavily on the latter. I think it's a risk worth taking. The bar for Michigan is low. When they have had offensive success, the last couple years it has been in spite of play-calling and strategy. It's largely to due with the talent they line up with being better than what's across from them. Gattis has spent time with Locksley and Moorehead, and appears to share a similar philosophy. 

Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Anonymous Coward on January 16, 2019, 02:16:29 PM
Well, there are tried and true methods for trying to keep someone, and they involve money and promotions, and it doesn't appear Saban offered either.  Instead, he offered 20 minutes of tongue lashing.  Draw conclusions on that as you will.
We're going round and round and don't have to so long as that word choice was deliberate (when you changed from "definitely" to "likely"). But to repeat in case it wasn't deliberate: 
Saban wasn't incentivized to offer his co-OC a pure OC promotion until after he knew Gattis may leave. That's how building coaching staffs goes. You want the best combo, and you do that by keeping as many overqualified guys as you can *if* you can. But Saban couldn't do that. Because he apparently didn't hear from Gattis until after his departure was official.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Anonymous Coward on January 16, 2019, 02:31:44 PM
The facts-

* Gattis is a proven commodity in recruiting and player development

* Gattis has little to no experience with developing an offensive unit's identity and play-calling

Offensive coordinators are judged heavily on the latter. I think it's a risk worth taking. The bar for Michigan is low. When they have had offensive success, the last couple years it has been in spite of play-calling and strategy. It's largely to due with the talent they line up with being better than what's across from them. Gattis has spent time with Locksley and Moorehead, and appears to share a similar philosophy.


Harbaugh's best Off Playcalling years were 2015 and 2016, with the creative screens, traps and FB dives. They moved away from those things. I'm sure part of that was that defenses were catching on. That kind of arms race is normal. But then we transitioned into an O that moreso fits the Bo/Harbaugh aesthetic. The main problem with that - basically the forfeiture of unpredictability - is that Michigan isn't a fully formed offense and "biggest kid on the block" right now. So they need an offense that can consistently punch above its weight class. They had that in 2015/16. And then they gave it up.
Harbaugh saying it himself that he's handing over the keys is probably the most important step to getting that back. Of course the guy who gets them matters. And this one has been a key part of two of CFBs best offenses in recent years (PSU and Bama) and on the latter, though it was probably somewhat of a fluff title, he was technically the co-OC. I'm sure he absorbed a lot of that goodness. But no matter what, he's a wizz with WRs and recruits.
So while we don't know much of the ceiling, the basement on this hire is rather high.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Mdot21 on January 16, 2019, 02:45:40 PM
Gattis was a great hire and anyone saying otherwise is just talking bs.

I'd much rather have someone like Gattis get full control of the offense and call the plays vs. the weird, clunky, Pep/Harbaugh collab that has failed miserably the last 2 seasons.

Pep was fired from his last two NFL jobs. Yet Harbaugh thought it was a great move to hire him and pay him $1.2 million a year.

Saban wanted to keep Gattis. He tried to keep him. That's a fact. Even the Bama insiders have said as much. Problem is- he wasn't willing to hand over full control of the offense and pay Gattis $1.5 million a year like Harbaugh was. Gattis would've made $525,000 at Alabama this year. He's making a million dollars more this year by taking the Michigan job. Saban wasn't offering full control, he'd have to have share it with Enos and they weren't offering to up his contract by $1 million.

I give Harbaugh a lot of credit for having the balls to go outbid Saban & Maryland and take a chance on a young, up and comer. Honestly didn't think he had it in him. Just thought he'd try more of the same old bullshit with Pep & him working on their clumsy, stupid, "body blow", 10 TE set offenses.

Really didn't think Harbaugh had this in him. Might be the thing that saves his ass in the long run if it works out.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: 847badgerfan on January 16, 2019, 02:50:40 PM
Y'all were pretty giddy about the Pep hire on here. Just sayin'.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Mdot21 on January 16, 2019, 02:52:51 PM
Y'all were pretty giddy about the Pep hire on here. Just sayin'.
don't remember that. most Michigan fans on the message boards were actually pissed off when Jedd Fisch left and he got replaced with Pep Hamilton.
Pep Hamilton made Andrew Luck look mediocre in Indianapolis. Think for a second how much you have to suck to make a once in a generational talent like Andrew Luck look bad? Well, Pep did that shit. I was no fan of Pep Hamilton's ever. And I was even less of a fan of his stupid massive contract. NO ONE is knocking down his door to hire him let alone pay him $1.2+ million a year.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Anonymous Coward on January 16, 2019, 02:53:56 PM
Y'all were pretty giddy about the Pep hire on here. Just sayin'.
I'm giddy about many Michigan things, but at least someone wasn't. I just can't remember who.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: FearlessF on January 16, 2019, 04:00:49 PM
y'all pay yer assistants WAY too much $$$
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: 847badgerfan on January 16, 2019, 04:05:55 PM
Gattis was a great hire and anyone saying otherwise is just talking bs.

I'd much rather have someone like Gattis get full control of the offense and call the plays vs. the weird, clunky, Pep/Harbaugh collab that has failed miserably the last 2 seasons.

Pep was fired from his last two NFL jobs. Yet Harbaugh thought it was a great move to hire him and pay him $1.2 million a year.

Saban wanted to keep Gattis. He tried to keep him. That's a fact. Even the Bama insiders have said as much. Problem is- he wasn't willing to hand over full control of the offense and pay Gattis $1.5 million a year like Harbaugh was. Gattis would've made $525,000 at Alabama this year. He's making a million dollars more this year by taking the Michigan job. Saban wasn't offering full control, he'd have to have share it with Enos and they weren't offering to up his contract by $1 million.

I give Harbaugh a lot of credit for having the balls to go outbid Saban & Maryland and take a chance on a young, up and comer. Honestly didn't think he had it in him. Just thought he'd try more of the same old bullshit with Pep & him working on their clumsy, stupid, "body blow", 10 TE set offenses.

Really didn't think Harbaugh had this in him. Might be the thing that saves his ass in the long run if it works out.
don't remember that. most Michigan fans on the message boards were actually pissed off when Jedd Fisch left and he got replaced with Pep Hamilton.
Pep Hamilton made Andrew Luck look mediocre in Indianapolis. Think for a second how much you have to suck to make a once in a generational talent like Andrew Luck look bad? Well, Pep did that shit. I was no fan of Pep Hamilton's ever. And I was even less of a fan of his stupid massive contract. NO ONE is knocking down his door to hire him let alone pay him $1.2+ million a year.
Are you OK with M paying $1.5MM for a coordinator who never truly coordinated?
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on January 16, 2019, 04:19:18 PM
y'all pay yer assistants WAY too much $$$
And with all that money, there's not even that much retention of assistants for those schools. 
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: FearlessF on January 16, 2019, 04:20:01 PM
hey, if it takes $1.5 to keep him from going to Maryland, that's what it takes
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Anonymous Coward on January 16, 2019, 05:02:11 PM
Are you OK with M paying $1.5MM for a coordinator who never truly coordinated?
Yes. I mean, it grates somewhat it the generic ways, where (a) fans complain about ticket prices or (b) hard working everyday people whine that some famous person works equally but makes 50-100x more annually. But while those emotional arguments are familiar and comforting in an Everyman kind of way, they're also terrible arguments. Because they ignore subtleties about capitalism. Or that despite atypically high assistant salaries, Michigan's ticket prices aren't growing at any different rate than they are for the rest of the P5.
Until the current landscape is proven unsustainable and crashes, that money is never going back in the bottle. And even if it were, the last to get it would be fans. So I'd rather feed it to coaches or palatial facilities than administrators. 
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: 847badgerfan on January 16, 2019, 05:13:05 PM
Is he really getting full control of the "bus"? As in, he gets to shape his own staff? If that's the case, they should have kicked the tires on Canada. He'd be in Bloomington right now, if given full control. Wilson wouldn't do that though. 
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Mdot21 on January 16, 2019, 05:17:50 PM
Are you OK with M paying $1.5MM for a coordinator who never truly coordinated?
Yes. He’s an up and comer. They pretty much had to overpay him to get him to leave Bama and turn down Maryland.
Much rather take a big shot on an up and comer with upside than keep around a mediocre NFL reject like Pep Hamilton’s sorry ass. Gattis at least has upside. We already know what Pep is. He’s a dogshit OC and offensive coach. We’ve known that before he ever got to Michigan. Indianapolis and Cleveland both fired him. Michigan just effectively fired him without having to publicly do so. All the insiders said months ago that Pep was told by Harbaugh to go find another job. 
With Gattis you almost have to over pay because he’s a young, hot commodity. If you don’t entice him with big $ he’d have just stayed at Bama or took the OC job at Maryland. You have to pay him or you don’t get him. 
Pep? NO ONE was trying to hire him and pay him that kind of scratch. Harbaugh only did so because Pep is his boy and he’s got a big ass piggy bank at Michigan to pay his assistants. Classic case of Harbaugh just hooking up his buddy. Happens all the time in the coaching ranks.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Mdot21 on January 16, 2019, 05:20:08 PM
Is he really getting full control of the "bus"? As in, he gets to shape his own staff? If that's the case, they should have kicked the tires on Canada. He'd be in Bloomington right now, if given full control. Wilson wouldn't do that though.
Canada was my dream hire. He’d have been great but it’d have never worked. He’s too much like Harbaugh- just too big of an asshole. Two big time assholes like that- it’d never work.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: ELA on January 16, 2019, 05:28:34 PM
Hired Arizona State's DL coach.  Dude should send a finders fee to that NT they had last year, who was a one man wrecking crew.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: bayareabadger on January 16, 2019, 05:34:39 PM

don't remember that. most Michigan fans on the message boards were actually pissed off when Jedd Fisch left and he got replaced with Pep Hamilton.
Pep Hamilton made Andrew Luck look mediocre in Indianapolis. Think for a second how much you have to suck to make a once in a generational talent like Andrew Luck look bad? Well, Pep did that shit. I was no fan of Pep Hamilton's ever. And I was even less of a fan of his stupid massive contract. NO ONE is knocking down his door to hire him let alone pay him $1.2+ million a year.
I recall, maybe not giddiness, but some excitement about a steady pro-style hand. The thing about the Luck stuff is you could've credited the first two years to Pep and written the last one off as injuries at the time. 
Granted I feel like Michigan often has the most extremity of overall program buildup on this site, but it's also had the most ups/downs/dissatisfaction with pretty good owing to the OSU thing. 
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: 847badgerfan on January 16, 2019, 05:41:13 PM
I wonder if Jaybaugh is going to keep his job. 
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: ELA on January 16, 2019, 05:41:58 PM
I wonder if Jaybaugh is going to keep his job.
I assumed he was the one who just extended that offer to a 13 year old from his Fortnite crew?
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: 847badgerfan on January 16, 2019, 05:45:40 PM
I assumed he was the one who just extended that offer to a 13 year old from his Fortnite crew?
Could be. I read the comments that there is an 8th grade offer out, in addition to this 7th grader. What is neat is that they will both be from the same high school. When they get to high school, that is.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Anonymous Coward on January 16, 2019, 07:55:38 PM
Is he really getting full control of the "bus"? As in, he gets to shape his own staff? If that's the case, they should have kicked the tires on Canada. He'd be in Bloomington right now, if given full control. Wilson wouldn't do that though.
I can't speak to what JH meant. I can just say that he is now on record saying that Gattis has the keys to the car - I believe that regarded O design and game day calls. However, I am 100% sure he does not have the ability to hire/fire assistants. Still, at least in rhetoric, this is a seismic change. JH has never "given over the keys" at any of his stops as far as I know - not even in words.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Mdot21 on January 16, 2019, 07:57:14 PM
I wonder if Jaybaugh is going to keep his job.
he’s arguably the 2nd best recruiter on that staff behind Chris Partridge. 
I’d much rather have Mike Hart at RB coach, believe me. But part of me feels like RBs can’t be coached too much. Sure they can be coached to improve their blocking and catching, but in terms of running the football- that’s a god given ability. You either have that as a RB or you don’t. No one coached Emmitt Smith or Barry Sanders or Walter Payton or Marshall Faulk or Gale Sayers how to run. They just had it. You either have it or you don’t. 
Michigan’s biggest problem at RB has been recruiting. They haven’t recruited a legitimate high level RB. Hopefully Zach Charbonnet is that.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Anonymous Coward on January 16, 2019, 07:58:06 PM
Meanwhile, Michigan is now 1 over the limit on coaches. They can either demote McDaniels back to analyst or release Pep. And every insider take is that McDaniels is here to stay. JH - as he did with Drevno - seems to be shopping Pep around (he's been seen all over the NFL of late) but set to fire him if there are no takers. Sadly, I'm guessing there won't be.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Mdot21 on January 16, 2019, 07:59:41 PM
Hired Arizona State's DL coach.  Dude should send a finders fee to that NT they had last year, who was a one man wrecking crew.
Love the hire on paper. Don’t think he’s going to be an upgrade from Mattison. But he’s like 35 years younger. So there’s that.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Anonymous Coward on January 16, 2019, 08:00:24 PM
I recall, maybe not giddiness, but some excitement about a steady pro-style hand. The thing about the Luck stuff is you could've credited the first two years to Pep and written the last one off as injuries at the time.
Granted I feel like Michigan often has the most extremity of overall program buildup on this site, but it's also had the most ups/downs/dissatisfaction with pretty good owing to the OSU thing.
Dollars to donuts, that was my take. Positive with seemingly good reasons ... but ultimately deluded.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Mdot21 on January 16, 2019, 08:01:23 PM
Meanwhile, Michigan is now 1 over the limit on coaches. They can either demote McDaniels back to analyst or release Pep. And every insider take is that McDaniels is here to stay. JH - as he did with Drevno - seems to be shopping Pep around (he's been seen all over the NFL of late) but set to fire him if there are no takers. Sadly, I'm guessing there won't be.
Pep is a goner. Insiders all said months ago he was told to look for a new job. 
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: FearlessF on January 16, 2019, 09:26:59 PM

Michigan’s biggest problem at RB has been recruiting. They haven’t recruited a legitimate high level RB. Hopefully Zach Charbonnet is that.
too many 4-stars?  not enough 5-stars?
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Anonymous Coward on January 16, 2019, 10:40:51 PM
too many 4-stars?  not enough 5-stars?
An ongoing joke both within and from outside the program (but especially viral among M fans) is that Ann Arbor has lured too many 5-star RBs. As if that number at that position + M = curse. It's silly, but the coincidence (0/4 - Baraka, Grady, Green, Isaac) is nevertheless surprising.
I think it's mostly based on poor OL coaching since Carr left (now turning under Ed Warinner). We'll see and can test it almost immediately. Charbonnet is another guy with silly measurables/rankings/film. And the OL returns 4/5 starters as well as one of the best OL coaches in the game. Hopefully it's really that simple.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Anonymous Coward on January 17, 2019, 05:00:36 PM
Per Gattis, his offense will be more spread/RPO.

It's such an unexpected move by Harbaugh. Should be fascinating to follow.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Roaddawg on January 17, 2019, 05:31:27 PM
Does he have the personnel to make that move right now will be a huge question.  Think back when Rich Rod came in and wanted to run his system, the personnel just was not there and M fan were not going to give him the transition time to make it work.  If Jimmy Football does not like the result, he will go back to what he knows and loves.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Anonymous Coward on January 17, 2019, 06:08:51 PM
Does he have the personnel to make that move right now will be a huge question.  Think back when Rich Rod came in and wanted to run his system, the personnel just was not there and M fan were not going to give him the transition time to make it work.  If Jimmy Football does not like the result, he will go back to what he knows and loves.
I don't think the personnel is the question. If anything, Harbaugh's 2018 offense was built for the wrong roster.
Patterson is a Tate Forcier/healthy-McSorely type. He was born to run to throw, run to run, and air it out. The top 3-4+ of the receiving corps are all future draft picks, likely including high picks. Whether they are among the most productive in college isn't about genes but the head coach's interests and the OC's tact.

Then there's Ed Warriner who did solid work in the power game in 2018, but became a commodity as an OL coach for his units on more spread offenses, and Michigan probably has one of the most nimble centers in the country. Many C's can't pull off one reach block ever. Like David Molk, Ruiz could reach all day.

So personnel isn't the real question, and this isn't like Carr-to-RR (in terms of fit, it's more as if Carr inherited the 2008 roster from RR or as if RR inherited the 2011 roster from Hoke).

The real questions are (1) is Gattis all that and (2) is Harbaugh as committed to his spread/RPO future as he seems? Tact and will. That decides this. The Johnnys and Joes are already in town.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: bayareabadger on January 17, 2019, 06:59:05 PM
Per Gattis, his offense will be more spread/RPO.

It's such an unexpected move by Harbaugh. Should be fascinating to follow.
I mean this politely as possible, this sentace is the start of disappointment. 
Spread and RPO sound a lot more high tech and foreign than they end up being. 
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Anonymous Coward on January 17, 2019, 07:41:17 PM
I mean this politely as possible, this sentace is the start of disappointment.
Spread and RPO sound a lot more high tech and foreign than they end up being.
That's why Harbaugh's commitment to change is still my top question. The quotes are too dramatic to believe. But if JH is committed and Gattis is truly in charge, THEN I'd predict that he'd use those words (RPO and spread) to mean at Michigan what they did when the 2018 Bama and 2016/2017 PSU offenses were being designed.

And that's why my next biggest question is whether Gattis is all that.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Anonymous Coward on January 17, 2019, 07:54:08 PM
We'll know a lot about Q1 by the spring game. We'll know a lot about Q2 in twelve months.

But Q3, whether the personnel is built to be more like 2017 PSU or more like 2011 Alabama (with Warmack/Jones/Fluker forming one of the scariest OLs in history and McCarron being a drab but efficient pocket passer), well we already know that. 

Michigan isn't built at OL to forfeit unpredictability. And rush-rush-pass is wasting their QB/WRs. I'd have loved to see Harbaugh's offense with Warmack/Jones/Fluker, but the real world requires a new plan.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: 847badgerfan on January 17, 2019, 08:06:39 PM
I will probably go to the M game in Madison this year. 
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Anonymous Coward on January 17, 2019, 08:12:36 PM
I will probably go to the M game in Madison this year.
If I've finished this second doctorate by then, I'll be there too. I'm not usually one for restraint, but that's the rule I've given myself. Would be great to get back. Last I was there was for a bachelor weekend - including broom ball on UW's practice rink.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Mdot21 on January 18, 2019, 11:31:06 PM
Does he have the personnel to make that move right now will be a huge question.  Think back when Rich Rod came in and wanted to run his system, the personnel just was not there and M fan were not going to give him the transition time to make it work.  If Jimmy Football does not like the result, he will go back to what he knows and loves.
Of course they have the personnel to do it. Shea Patterson is tailor made for that style of offense. As is Dylan McCaffrey. These are athletic QB's that can run and throw on the run. These guys aren't statue pocket passers by any means. Their only returning RB with any experience- Chris Evans- is tailor made for that style of offense. He's not a downhill, I-formation runner- like Harbaugh stupidly kept trying to make him into. Evans has a chance to really flourish and take off to the next level in a different style of offense.
They are loaded up the wazoo with elite WR talent like DPJ, Nico Collins, and Tarik Black. Ronnie Bell and Oliver Martin ain't shabby 4th and 5th WR options. They brought in maybe the best slot-ninja WR recruit in the nation in the 2019 class in Giles Jackson and another WR who has big-time talent in 4* Cornelius Johnson. Nick Eubanks is the perfect type of big WR pretending to be a TE that fits that style of offense like a glove as well.
Their personnel is tailor made for that style of wide open, spread it out, quick pace offense.
Time to ditch the FB's and the TE's and get into the 21st century already. And besides- with Gentry gone off to the NFL there really isn't any reason to feature the TE anymore. Sean McKeon freaking sucks and any play with him involved is just a wasted play. Time to ditch the traditional TE and start using the Flex TE. 2019 should be goodbye McKeon, hello Eubanks.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Anonymous Coward on January 19, 2019, 01:02:59 AM
I loved the Fullback offense when it was creative with traps and dives in 2015/2016. Every effective and unpredictable offense is awesome. And Harbaugh's was different, which was an enjoyment amplifier. But then he packed that stuff up for reasons, some good, many bad.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: bayareabadger on January 19, 2019, 09:58:53 AM
That's why Harbaugh's commitment to change is still my top question. The quotes are too dramatic to believe. But if JH is committed and Gattis is truly in charge, THEN I'd predict that he'd use those words (RPO and spread) to mean at Michigan what they did when the 2018 Bama and 2016/2017 PSU offenses were being designed.

And that's why my next biggest question is whether Gattis is all that.
You misunderstand me, these quotes are not too dramatic to believe. They are not that way because UM already runs a modest amount of "spread" stuff, as that word is kinda meaningless at this point. And Michigan has some RPOs in their package. 
I know, I know, this is my hobby horse, but we put so much on design and play-calling, when what we're really talking about it effectiveness. And these are much less tightly linked than we imagine. Technique, finer points of coaching and just playing better matter far more than having a third WR out there all the time.
Using the Bama offense as a comparison point for anything isn't all that useful. Their third-leading rusher might be the first back taken in the draft. They have five receivers ranked ahead of anyone Mich has but DPJ, and have a very rare QB. Garbage time started in the second quarter much of the season.
Penn State is a more interesting comparison. I don't know if they fully gave themselves to the RPO lifestyle, but they have the numbers of a team that did. They didn't run the ball much. The thing with RPOs is the defense tells you when you run and when you pass. Penn State also had the oddity it wasn't that efficent but was hilariously good at big plays. If they go that route and struggle, I wonder when we hear, "Why aren't they running it more?"
In the end, I worry we'll see what we want to see. If the offense is running spread and RPOs and isn't good, we'll see it as a Harbaugh thing, as we've discussed run-run-pass is more reaction than question of strategy. If it looks like this year's offense, with less under center, and it's good, the spread revolution will have arrived. This year's offense, at least the times I sat to break down the film, rarely suffered from a lack of diversity off offensive concepts. It had plenty, and often modern ones. They just we're being run well. 
Pick something, run it well with good talent, that's always key.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Mdot21 on January 23, 2019, 06:45:06 PM
Astonishingly now sounds like Pep Hamilton is staying put and taking a demotion to QB coach. 

He was told to find an NFL job. No one wanted him in the NFL so he’s staying put. Instead of having the stones to fire him, Harbaugh is letting one of his buddies stay on staff and collect $1.2+ million to coach QBs. Jesus f’ing Christ.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Anonymous Coward on January 23, 2019, 06:55:10 PM
You misunderstand me, these quotes are not too dramatic to believe. They are not that way because UM already runs a modest amount of "spread" stuff, as that word is kinda meaningless at this point. And Michigan has some RPOs in their package.
I know, I know, this is my hobby horse, but we put so much on design and play-calling, when what we're really talking about it effectiveness. And these are much less tightly linked than we imagine. Technique, finer points of coaching and just playing better matter far more than having a third WR out there all the time.
Using the Bama offense as a comparison point for anything isn't all that useful. Their third-leading rusher might be the first back taken in the draft. They have five receivers ranked ahead of anyone Mich has but DPJ, and have a very rare QB. Garbage time started in the second quarter much of the season.
Penn State is a more interesting comparison. I don't know if they fully gave themselves to the RPO lifestyle, but they have the numbers of a team that did. They didn't run the ball much. The thing with RPOs is the defense tells you when you run and when you pass. Penn State also had the oddity it wasn't that efficent but was hilariously good at big plays. If they go that route and struggle, I wonder when we hear, "Why aren't they running it more?"
In the end, I worry we'll see what we want to see. If the offense is running spread and RPOs and isn't good, we'll see it as a Harbaugh thing, as we've discussed run-run-pass is more reaction than question of strategy. If it looks like this year's offense, with less under center, and it's good, the spread revolution will have arrived. This year's offense, at least the times I sat to break down the film, rarely suffered from a lack of diversity off offensive concepts. It had plenty, and often modern ones. They just we're being run well.
Pick something, run it well with good talent, that's always key.
That's fair. I'm an amateur but accept and respect the nuance. Rather than complain about play calls or scheme, I should have complained more broadly about an offense that doesn't work. Part of that is execution, but the 2018 squad had better cogs and a better-executing OL than the 2015 or 2016 editions. So it's not all offseason prep, execution and recruiting. Whether it's gameplan (drawn up during the week) or play choices (called up in the moment), I keep going back to the continuum of "un/predictability," which you may see as a popular (and conveniently vague) cop out. 

With lesser QBs and OLs, Harbaugh was lauded as unpredictable in 2015 and 2016. He used old school pieces (TEs and FBs) in unusual ways at unexpected times. It was effective enough to punch above their weight class. I didn't expect those specific wrinkles to last forever (defenses do catch on). But I did expect (a) new wrinkles to follow and (b) for the offense to become more effective as the OL did. Because (a) and (b) did not follow, giving full control to new blood is the right call ... as long as you select the right new blood.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Anonymous Coward on January 23, 2019, 07:05:21 PM
Astonishingly now sounds like Pep Hamilton is staying put and taking a demotion to QB coach.

He was told to find an NFL job. No one wanted him in the NFL so he’s staying put. Instead of having the stones to fire him, Harbaugh is letting one of his buddies stay on staff and collect $1.2+ million to coach QBs. Jesus f’ing Christ.
I don't care about the money. It is of no consequence. The AD and ticket prices are effectively refractory to an extra $1MM in expenses. My main thoughts are about recruiting, in-game effects, McDaniels, and the WRs/Gattis:
(1) this is a recruiting bummer. Michigan's QB recruiting has been acceptable under Pep, but he's otherwise dead weight in this department; McDaniels by comparison was a major boost
(2) I don't think this will impact the 2019 game days much at all if Gattis truly has control of O design and playcalling as we've been told
(3) I feel bad for McDaniels ... he finally made it, except "psych!"
(4) and I wonder about the WRs. Will they be coachless again, like in 2017, or is Gattis pulling double duty? There've been several recent OCs in CFB who've gone from all-star position coaches to sucky at both that position and coordinating because they were apparently spread too thin (Drevno and Warinner are immediate examples). Is that risk in play for Gattis from day one? Seems dumb if so. 
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: ELA on February 02, 2019, 02:25:45 PM
https://twitter.com/GoBlueBrooks/status/1091777884065316865?s=19
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Anonymous Coward on February 03, 2019, 02:37:04 AM
Evans underperformed in 2018, but the offense had been shifting away from his strengths. Hopefully he navigates whatever this is correctly because the new offfense could really be his jam. And it'll certainly be Charbonnet's. As for Turner, I really like him as a poor man's Mike Hart (a compliment) but am not clear on how he fits in with the offense going forward.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Mdot21 on February 04, 2019, 03:30:02 PM
https://twitter.com/GoBlueBrooks/status/1091777884065316865?s=19
sucks. hopefully he works it out and gets back with the team.
this shift of offensive philosophy with Gattis now in charge- if true- and I'm starting to believe it is- benefits Chris Evans most outside of those WR's. Evans has a real shot to become something special in this type of offense. Won't have that shot though if he's in hot water off the field.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Anonymous Coward on February 05, 2019, 04:48:11 PM
I don't care about the money. It is of no consequence. The AD and ticket prices are effectively refractory to an extra $1MM in expenses. My main thoughts are about recruiting, in-game effects, McDaniels, and the WRs/Gattis:
(1) this is a recruiting bummer. Michigan's QB recruiting has been acceptable under Pep, but he's otherwise dead weight in this department; McDaniels by comparison was a major boost
(2) I don't think this will impact the 2019 game days much at all if Gattis truly has control of O design and playcalling as we've been told
(3) I feel bad for McDaniels ... he finally made it, except "psych!"
(4) and I wonder about the WRs. Will they be coachless again, like in 2017, or is Gattis pulling double duty? There've been several recent OCs in CFB who've gone from all-star position coaches to sucky at both that position and coordinating because they were apparently spread too thin (Drevno and Warinner are immediate examples). Is that risk in play for Gattis from day one? Seems dumb if so.

And just like that, Pep Hamilton is extricated from the premises. Wow.
Regarding the above, numbers 1/2/3 are now fully resolved. But #4 lives on because McDaniels will be QB coach (that, not WRs, is his background).
So now the "transition being on" thing gets another few increments. And recruiting is guaranteed to boost.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: ELA on February 05, 2019, 08:02:52 PM
sucks. hopefully he works it out and gets back with the team.
this shift of offensive philosophy with Gattis now in charge- if true- and I'm starting to believe it is- benefits Chris Evans most outside of those WR's. Evans has a real shot to become something special in this type of offense. Won't have that shot though if he's in hot water off the field.
Officially gone.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Mdot21 on February 05, 2019, 08:49:51 PM
Officially gone.
HUGE blow. Can't be spun any other way.
He was primed to take off in this new offense. He's a match made in heaven for this style of offense. Sucks.

Terrible news that Evans is gone. But there was also some great news: Pep is gone! Yay!
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Anonymous Coward on February 05, 2019, 11:00:13 PM
Correction: Not officially gone. Officially suspended. Sounds academic, serious, and self-inflicted. But the door remains open to return. I'm not sure he'll pull it off. And clearly he won't participate in fall ball.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: ELA on February 05, 2019, 11:04:48 PM
Correction: Not officially gone. Officially suspended. Sounds academic, serious, and self-inflicted. But the door remains open to return. I'm not sure he'll pull it off. And clearly he won't participate in fall ball.
I assume you mean spring ball?  Fall ball being the most important of the seasonal balls
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Anonymous Coward on February 05, 2019, 11:07:43 PM
Yep. Meant spring.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Temp430 on February 06, 2019, 10:58:01 AM
I'm less optimistic about Evans being back in time for the Fall.  I hope it happens but if the suspension was academic that's going to be hard to overcome as a near senior.  What's he going to do to get back?  Take some low level courses at a community college this Winter and Spring?
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Anonymous Coward on February 06, 2019, 11:05:47 AM
It depends on the nature of his problem. He was said to be skipping class last week. So in theory it could be an in-house suspension to correct his behavior. Or he could be truly ineligible in NCAA terms. In which case, I guess we have to ask whether that's by overall GPA or single semester GPA. One of those is automatically corrected by time (as long as he does fair work going forward). The other would depend on how bad he beefed it. If a failure or two knocked him below the career GPA eligibility threshold (2 F's is an extreme example and somewhat doubtful given how these guys' grades are hawked), it would realistically take him 2 semesters of honest effort to pull back above the limit. Which is how many semesters separate us from Fall camp.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Temp430 on February 06, 2019, 11:13:11 AM
OK.  Is Evans still attending class?  If so that's a huge positive.  If he's not enrolled at the U, it's really bad and that was what I was thinking.

No word on Spring practice or game that I could find.  

And I have a warm fuzzy over McDaniels as QB coach.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Anonymous Coward on February 06, 2019, 11:18:56 AM
I believe he is still enrolled. If he's not, it's over. At least for 2019, so probably forever. But either way, no one expects him to participate in spring ball. So one way or another the consequences are real.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Mdot21 on February 07, 2019, 09:11:11 PM
Pep Hamilton to the XFL.


:hee20hee20hee:
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: 847badgerfan on February 07, 2019, 09:14:18 PM
Pep Hamilton to the XFL.


:hee20hee20hee:

We must question the judgement of who hires all of these failed coaches. There are so very many.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: FearlessF on February 07, 2019, 09:34:42 PM
the XFL in Dallas hired Bobby Stoops???
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Mdot21 on February 08, 2019, 09:29:22 PM
We must question the judgement of who hires all of these failed coaches. There are so very many.
The XFL is the kind of leauge you'd expect to be filled with coaching rejects. Pep belongs in the XFL.
All the insiders said that Pep was told to look for an NFL job right after the Ohio State game. Harbaugh apparently didn't have the stones to just fire his ass. The problem is no one in the NFL wanted his ass. Pep wound up right where he belongs- in the WWE's football leauge.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Anonymous Coward on February 08, 2019, 10:33:28 PM
Just saw this Family Matters recruiting spoof. Lighthearted and grabs at my childhood programming, so it landed for me:

https://mobile.twitter.com/UMichFootball/status/1093261076496551937

Also: man am I glad that Don Brown will get a chance to work with Daxton. Phew!
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Mdot21 on February 11, 2019, 01:15:30 PM
Just saw this Family Matters recruiting spoof. Lighthearted and grabs at my childhood programming, so it landed for me:

https://mobile.twitter.com/UMichFootball/status/1093261076496551937

Also: man am I glad that Don Brown will get a chance to work with Daxton. Phew!
Kinda of sick of all the twitter bs and nonsense like this Jim Harbaugh's program puts out. How about he just beats Ohio State for once and not shit the bed in a bowl game?
Don Brown has had like 5 games now where his defenses were just flat out awful and got gashed to hell. I don't give a rats ass about holding overwhelmed crappy teams to negative yards. Get back to me when he shuts down Ohio State or an elite offense.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Anonymous Coward on February 11, 2019, 02:48:48 PM
Ha. That's not a v. fun attitude.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: FearlessF on February 11, 2019, 03:24:01 PM
but, honest and realistic
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Anonymous Coward on February 11, 2019, 03:28:50 PM
Of course. I'm just not sure why we'd tie them together. I happen to have high expectations for Michigan football but also enjoy smiling. So I happened to like the Family Matters spoof, despite thoroughly disliking the result against OSU. But it takes all kinds to make a world. If a person wants specific unhappinesses to spoil other happinesses, that's their prerogative. The world has room for curmudgeons, too.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Mdot21 on February 12, 2019, 01:30:52 PM
Of course. I'm just not sure why we'd tie them together. I happen to have high expectations for Michigan football but also enjoy smiling. So I happened to like the Family Matters spoof, despite thoroughly disliking the result against OSU. But it takes all kinds to make a world. If a person wants specific unhappinesses to spoil other happinesses, that's their prerogative. The world has room for curmudgeons, too.
I'm just sick of Harbaugh and his program. Nothing but hype. Where's the beef man? Get back to me when the guy beats Ohio State and wins the B1G. He needs to quit focusing on this dumbass little social media memes and the podcast and espousing about building statues to Tom Brady and just win some damn football games. I don't know who the hell this guy is. This isn't the same guy that was with the 49ers. I want that guy. The guy that didn't have a twitter or podcast and was a complete psycho on the sidelines blowing up on the refs that made bad calls and on players who f'd up. He needs to get off the meds and go back to being a complete psycho. That worked for him. This doesn't.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Anonymous Coward on February 12, 2019, 01:59:51 PM
(1) It's not hard to be happy unless you've committed to anger for anger's sake. It seems you've committed to negelct Michigan happiness until after the next championship. Like I said, this seems silly - even self-defeating - to me, but that's your prerogative.

(2) I really dislike the idea of the Tom Brady statue. I think there's something dignified about a campus honoring zero sports people with statues. So I even opposed the Bo statue. But at least that one was one-of-a-kind on campus and of someone who's life is past. So, I oppose any future sports people statues, and doubly oppose them for the living.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on February 12, 2019, 03:27:02 PM
(2) I really dislike the idea of the Tom Brady statue. I think there's something dignified about a campus honoring zero sports people with statues. So I even opposed the Bo statue. But at least that one was one-of-a-kind on campus and of someone who's life is past. So, I oppose any future sports people statues, and doubly oppose them for the living.
Why in the world would Michigan erect a Brady statue? He didn't lead them to a national title. He was 1-1 against Ohio State. He led them to a share of the 1998 conference title, but didn't go to the Rose Bowl either of his starting years. In fact, despite calling them "starting" years, he was battling Drew Henson for PT the entire time. He did lead the team to two bowl wins, but given that neither were Rose or BCSCG, it's not exactly statue-worthy.
I recognize that he's gone on to attain some truly amazing heights, but he didn't do that at Michigan, he did that in New England. At Purdue, we revere Drew Brees for what he did at Purdue, not what he's done with the Saints. 
If Michigan wants to put up statues, they should be statues of Michigan greats, not greats who happened to go to Michigan. 
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: 847badgerfan on February 12, 2019, 03:33:48 PM
Why in the world would Michigan erect a Brady statue?  
For the same reason every Michigan fan I know is a Patriots fan?? Hangin' the hat, man.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: FearlessF on February 12, 2019, 03:34:19 PM
does Purdue have statues of any astronauts that possibly achieved something noteworthy after graduation? 
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on February 12, 2019, 04:23:09 PM
does Purdue have statues of any astronauts that possibly achieved something noteworthy after graduation?
Figured that was coming next... 
I'd say it was a little different. Purdue doesn't exactly have its own space program, but our college of aerospace and aeronautical engineering has been at the forefront of educating those who have gone on to create the space program. It's not like Armstrong was the only Purdue alum to walk on the moon. Purdue was the home of Gus Grissom, Roger Chafee, Eugene Cernan [the last man to walk on the moon, so we have first and last], and is among the top producer of astronauts of any college in the nation [especially once you remove the service academies]. 
I wouldn't necessarily fault Michigan for honoring someone like Gerald Ford, even though it was his becoming President that he's known for, not his graduating from Michigan.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: ELA on February 12, 2019, 04:32:20 PM
Why in the world would Michigan erect a Brady statue? He didn't lead them to a national title. He was 1-1 against Ohio State. He led them to a share of the 1998 conference title, but didn't go to the Rose Bowl either of his starting years. In fact, despite calling them "starting" years, he was battling Drew Henson for PT the entire time. He did lead the team to two bowl wins, but given that neither were Rose or BCSCG, it's not exactly statue-worthy.
I recognize that he's gone on to attain some truly amazing heights, but he didn't do that at Michigan, he did that in New England. At Purdue, we revere Drew Brees for what he did at Purdue, not what he's done with the Saints.
If Michigan wants to put up statues, they should be statues of Michigan greats, not greats who happened to go to Michigan.
That's where I'm at.  Even if Michigan is going to start putting up statues, which I have no problem with, although we should have learned our lesson by now in general of putting up statues of living people, Brady shouldn't be anywhere near the front of that line.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: FearlessF on February 12, 2019, 04:32:26 PM
I'd say it's a little different as well, but along the same line.

many universities honor alum or graduates that have gone on to achieve great or outstanding accomplishments

I think a statue of Brady is over kill at Michigan, but obviously someone thinks it has merit.  Maybe just HArbaugh for the sole purpose of recruiting.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: 847badgerfan on February 12, 2019, 04:36:17 PM
Harbaugh would be best served by working to achieve his own statue. 
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: FearlessF on February 12, 2019, 04:47:28 PM
I'm just sick of Harbaugh and his program. Nothing but hype. Where's the beef man? Get back to me when the guy beats Ohio State and wins the B1G. He needs to quit focusing on this dumbass little social media memes and the podcast and espousing about building statues to Tom Brady and just win some damn football games. I don't know who the hell this guy is. This isn't the same guy that was with the 49ers. I want that guy. The guy that didn't have a twitter or podcast and was a complete psycho on the sidelines blowing up on the refs that made bad calls and on players who f'd up. He needs to get off the meds and go back to being a complete psycho. That worked for him. This doesn't.
I get this and all of it.  It's not just anger, it's not self defeating.
If not for the hype, and cheesiness of Harbaugh's antics, there wouldn't be the sense of BS and fluff.
Obviously, Jim is hoping to relate to young adults and young recruits.  That's fine if it works to an extent.  When it rubs older fans the wrong way Jim might not care and it seems he does not.
If Harbaugh's shtick rubs the fan base wrong, they are willing to overlook it IF the program is winning at acceptable levels.
Similar to Bo Pelini's antics in Lincoln.  Rubbed many the wrong way, but if Pelini had won a couple conference championships  and held victories over the Longhorns or the Badgers folks would have put up with the crap.
Sounds to me that some Michigan fans are tired of the hype w/o the success.  very understandable
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on February 12, 2019, 05:04:29 PM
And FYI to self-criticize, I was going to make a point that Michigan giving Brady a statue would be like Purdue giving John Wooden a statue... And then I realized that a few years ago, a donor sponsored a John Wooden statue at Purdue. 

I'm opposed to this for the same reason. Almost all of John Wooden's notoriety comes from the coaching success he had at UCLA. He was a revered player for Purdue, a 3-time All-American, and a member of the only men's basketball team Purdue can claim as a national champion. So his own accomplishments at Purdue are probably on a higher level than Brady's accomplishments at Michigan

But still, without Wooden's coaching success, is anyone sponsoring a statue of him at Purdue? Or are they capitalizing on his notoriety and trying to highlight "hey he was a Boilermaker first!" I don't think anyone puts up a Wooden statue at Purdue without Wooden's coaching success, just as I don't think anyone puts up a Brady statue at Michigan without his professional success at New England. 

In both cases, they'd be honored for success that largely occurred at a completely different institution. In Wooden's case, at a competing institution, and in Brady's case, at a higher level of competition that is fundamentally not directly related to Michigan. 
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Anonymous Coward on February 12, 2019, 07:55:45 PM
For the same reason every Michigan fan I know is a Patriots fan?? Hangin' the hat, man.
You know me and I'm not a Patriots fan. I'm not even a Brady fan (several things about him are disappointing). But I am a Michigan fan (the only kind of football fan I am), and his Super Bowl wins are better than zero for Michigan, so I root for furtherance of their accumulation.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Anonymous Coward on February 12, 2019, 07:58:15 PM
Maybe just HArbaugh for the sole purpose of recruiting.
That's all it is, and I'm against it. But I'm against most statues, and perhaps all of them for the living, and that's even outside of sports, where there are countless fields more deserving.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Anonymous Coward on February 12, 2019, 08:01:56 PM
Sounds to me that some Michigan fans are tired of the hype w/o the success.  very understandable
Seeing the depths Michigan is coming from, I'd call being one game away at the end of the season a form of realistic success. We've been that close to championships and playoffs in the final week in 2016 and 2018. It's statistically unrealistic that even if Michigan were to get zero better but just stay at that level that they wouldn't break through. That doesn't mean there aren't disappointments. I just don't think it's reasonable to cast his tenure as unsuccessful. We accelerated out of the doldrums and are now on the fringe. Sounds like 4 years of work to me.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: FearlessF on February 12, 2019, 09:32:37 PM
4 years of work are obviously worth the effort if it leads to something

and with Urbs retiring......... it's time
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Anonymous Coward on February 12, 2019, 09:48:26 PM
No one can disagree with that.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: FearlessF on February 12, 2019, 09:50:05 PM
Brutus might
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Anonymous Coward on February 19, 2019, 03:45:05 PM
Michigan takes a grad transfer from DE Mike Danna, formerly of CMU. Albeit against a lower level of competition, PFF rated him at a 91.3 last year, placing him as their overall 69th highest college football player in America. He's probably worth a one year scholarship flier. 

Howevvvver, I don't think Michigan's roster needed the help at DE nearly as much as at DT. I really don't think Michigan has sufficient skill or depth in the interior line to pull off another Top 5 or even Top 10 defense next year. Guess we'll see.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: ELA on February 19, 2019, 05:12:35 PM
Michigan takes a grad transfer from DE Mike Danna, formerly of CMU. Albeit against a lower level of competition, PFF rated him at a 91.3 last year, placing him as their overall 69th highest college football player in America. He's probably worth a one year scholarship flier.

Howevvvver, I don't think Michigan's roster needed the help at DE nearly as much as at DT. I really don't think Michigan has sufficient skill or depth in the interior line to pull off another Top 5 or even Top 10 defense next year. Guess we'll see.
Well, couple things.
1.) You can never have too many talented bodies along the DL.
2.) From my CMU preview
Instead, both starting cornerbacks, Sean Bunting and Xavier Crawford declared early for the draft; and then Mike Danna, who tied for 2nd in the MAC in sacks, entered the transfer portal as a grad transfer.  Just to show the type of player he is, Michigan State, Iowa and Nebraska have apparently already contacted him.  
So he's (a) not a stretch at all, multiple Big Ten teams contacted him, including MSU and Iowa, who aren't exactly hurting for DL; and (b) nothing is in a vacuum, so if nothing else he isn't playing for a conference opponent next year.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Mdot21 on February 19, 2019, 11:08:28 PM
can never have enough talented DLs. Great pick up by any measure. 

But yeah DT depth sucks. Lawrence Marshall and Bryan Mone graduated. Aubrey Solomon and Derron Irving Bey transferred. They were both big time talents with major upside that just up and left. DT experience coming back is a converted SDE with very limited talent in Carlo Kemp and a pretty decent pass rushing DT in Mike Dwumfour. That’s about it. 
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: ELA on February 20, 2019, 01:48:04 PM
https://twitter.com/ShaneMorris_7/status/1097962381412651008?s=19
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Anonymous Coward on February 20, 2019, 02:42:51 PM
🤣
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: 847badgerfan on February 20, 2019, 04:42:22 PM
Hehe. Someone in that twitter thread typed "big blue is getting someone really special" or some such. Big blue. Hehe.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Anonymous Coward on February 20, 2019, 05:40:25 PM
/winces
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: ELA on February 20, 2019, 09:28:29 PM
Maybe they are ahead of themselves and have him going to the Giants in his 2020 mock draft.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Anonymous Coward on February 27, 2019, 06:16:25 PM
https://twitter.com/PFF_College/status/1100760727671971840
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Anonymous Coward on February 27, 2019, 06:30:28 PM
It's amazing what can happen when kids with all the talent age a year and actually get a position coach. 

That has me slightly nervous still for 2019 with McElwain leaving and Gattis pulling double duty. Obviously WRs are a specialty for him (and at a standout level nationally), but where's the rub? We've seen many examples of late where OCs were stretched too thin between coordinating and their positional specialty. If Gattis masters both, I'll be over the moon, but it's too easy to remember what happened with Drevno at M or Warinner at OSU** who were  to go in expecting the best.

**(highest level OL assistants who bit off too much, becoming meh at both OC and OL at the end)
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Anonymous Coward on February 28, 2019, 01:18:57 PM
https://mobile.twitter.com/fieldyates/status/1101170914304118786?s=21
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: ELA on February 28, 2019, 01:43:27 PM
It's amazing what can happen when kids with all the talent age a year and actually get a position coach.

That has me slightly nervous still for 2019 with McElwain leaving and Gattis pulling double duty. Obviously WRs are a specialty for him (and at a standout level nationally), but where's the rub? We've seen many examples of late where OCs were stretched too thin between coordinating and their positional specialty. If Gattis masters both, I'll be over the moon, but it's too easy to remember what happened with Drevno at M or Warinner at OSU** who were  to go in expecting the best.

**(highest level OL assistants who bit off too much, becoming meh at both OC and OL at the end)
My guess is that it has a ton to do with the catchability of the passes being thrown, which is an unmeasurable but real thing.  Lost in the MSU 2012 to 2013 fix was how many fewer drops MSU had in 2013 with the same WRs, but Cook, rather than Maxwell throwing the ball, even though Maxwell had the better measurables.  Several guys noted the catchability of Cook's rotation.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Anonymous Coward on March 01, 2019, 08:58:47 AM
No doubt, Patterson was huge for the offense. To be clear though, I was moreso using this graphic as an excuse to talk about the WRs in general. There are better ways to measure their improvement last year. And there the story is the same. The group got waaaaaaay better. A year of age and having a coach will do that. What did you think of my concern for 2019?
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: ELA on March 01, 2019, 09:04:32 AM
That was my point, I think it's more who is throwing them the ball, not who is coaching them.  Route running, even blocking, I'll go coaching, so maybe some credit there.  But catching the ball, I'm guessing that's 99.9% Patterson, mixed with natural improvement by being a year older.  So no, I'm not concerned, it's the same guys coming back.  Maybe some question of whether the guys behind them will suffer without having the same type of coach singularly focused on their development?  Maybe, but going into 2019 I wouldn't be concerned at all.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Anonymous Coward on March 01, 2019, 09:40:20 AM
Thanks. That could be some reasonable optimism. Separately, there was no doubting their improvement as route runners. All of them except maybe Tarik Black struggled with that discipline and know how as TrFr, especially DPJ. Then fast forward 12 months and the leap was major, especially for DPJ. Ditto for run blocking, where they became one of the best in the conference. We can ding McElwain for plenty as a HC, recruiter, and PR handler of someone else's shark photos, but he's great with this position.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: ELA on March 01, 2019, 10:34:07 AM
https://twitter.com/SamTomasi13/status/1101302099248406533
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Anonymous Coward on March 01, 2019, 11:13:53 AM
Really, though; it's art.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Anonymous Coward on March 19, 2019, 12:36:53 PM
Michigan just started spring ball. Harbaugh confirms by presser that (a) Gattis has both designed the offense and will call plays and (b) it will be up-tempo.

Both are major changes and though the second doesn't guarantee success, it's a welcome change given the clock management in 2-minute drills. It was clear the offense wasn't previously designed to stop huddling and run down the play clock. Flexibility is good.

With almost everyone back on offense (only 1 OL, 1 RB and 1 TE left), there's a lot of potential for a fun first year for Gattis. Especially with this QB, these WRs, and by far the best OL of Harbaugh's tenure.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: ELA on March 19, 2019, 12:44:53 PM
With almost everyone back on offense (only 1 OL, 1 RB and 1 TE left), there's a lot of potential for a fun first year for Gattis. Especially with this QB, these WRs, and by far the best OL of Harbaugh's tenure.
Agreed re: QB, WR, OL.  But I thought basically every RB is gone (Higdon, Evans, Samuels).  Isn't it just Tru Wilson and the freshmen?
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Anonymous Coward on March 19, 2019, 01:23:52 PM
I was posting about starters, but being comprehensive is useful, so let's do that, too.

Higdon is gone. Evans is in purgatory. Those are the ones that matter. There's no word that Evans's absence is forever, but he'll obviously miss Spring Camp. Then there's O'Maury Samuels, but he left because he couldn't find his spot, which won't affect RB production unless the scholarship roster craters.

In any event, you're right if your thought is that RB is the weakest aspect of the offense. I liked Tru Wilson as reminiscent of Mike Hart last year**, and Harbaugh just reported that Christian Turner has "surged" to be the lead back, which is encouraging given what we saw of Wilson. And then there are the incoming TrFr. Charbonnet will have a lot to say about this, if he lives up to his HS laurels.

So even if it is the weakest part of the offense, that's more about the other positions being quite well off than this one being a pit.

---
**(the most decisive of the backs - great, quick decisions, always falls forward, good YPC [5.9] with low standard deviation, but not a burner and wasn't as well suited for the old offense as Higdon)
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Anonymous Coward on March 19, 2019, 01:34:05 PM
This is the first or second offseason since maybe 2006 or 2003 that Michigan is favored by Vegas in every single game. I know opposing fans have the bias that Michigan is overranked in everything, but it's highly unusual this century for Michigan to be favored over OSU at all, let alone this much.

Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Anonymous Coward on March 19, 2019, 05:10:18 PM
Wilton Speight gives a boldly honest interview about Michigan past and future. Spoiler: though he seems to hold his tongue as best he can, he thinks Pep Hamilton is below-average at coaching (https://www.detroitnews.com/story/sports/college/university-michigan/wolverines/2019/03/15/wilton-speight-eager-see-michigan-offense-handcuffs-off/3177295002/).

On Gattis:

On Shea:
On Pep:
On whether Harbaugh is lying about revolutionizing the offense or giving it all to Gattis:
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Anonymous Coward on March 19, 2019, 05:54:12 PM
Sounds like Luigi Vilain may be the healthiest he's ever been for a football camp. Music to my ears. Of course, Michigan doesn't have a DE problem, but we've been clamoring for this kid to get better forever.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Anonymous Coward on March 19, 2019, 06:01:36 PM
The big 2019 questions for Michigan, aside from the mysteries around Gattis, are:

The upper echelon sore spot on the roster:


Mid level sore spots:

Points of relative neutrality:
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Cincydawg on March 19, 2019, 06:38:04 PM
Notre Dame has a rather daunting schedule in 2019.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Mdot21 on March 19, 2019, 08:00:35 PM
Agreed re: QB, WR, OL.  But I thought basically every RB is gone (Higdon, Evans, Samuels).  Isn't it just Tru Wilson and the freshmen?
Correct. Higdon graduated and Samuels got kicked off the team. Evans is suspended and off the team, there is a small chance he could be back however. It's basically hot-shot true frosh Zach Chabornnet or bust. RB is slim pickings. Evans' academic issues really couldn't have come at a worse time for him. IF it's to be believed Gattis has full control and is changing the offense drastically- he'd have been the guy to benefit most outside of the WR crew. Evans' ability to make plays in space and run pass routes and catch the ball is as good as I've ever seen for a Michigan RB. Scratch that- probably the best I've ever seen from a Michigan back. Really huge blow if he isn't able to get back.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Mdot21 on March 19, 2019, 08:07:09 PM
Sounds like Luigi Vilain may be the healthiest he's ever been for a football camp. Music to my ears. Of course, Michigan doesn't have a DE problem, but we've been clamoring for this kid to get better forever.
will be great for depth. Throw 10-15 pounds on Josh Uche and start him at the weakside and start Kwitty Paye at the strong side and the pass rush really shouldn't skip a beat despite losing Gary and Winovich. Aidan Hutchinson should take it up a notch in his 2nd year and back-up Paye. The key will be seeing if Uche can step his game up a notch and put on some weight and hold up vs the run. If Josh Uche does that- DE's will be A OK. It's the DT's that worry me to death.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Mdot21 on March 19, 2019, 08:25:32 PM
This is the first or second offseason since maybe 2006 or 2003 that Michigan is favored by Vegas in every single game. I know opposing fans have the bias that Michigan is overranked in everything, but it's highly unusual this century for Michigan to be favored over OSU at all, let alone this much.

  • -8.5 vs ND
  • -6 @Wisconsin
  • -13.5 vs MSU
  • -6.5 @PSU
  • -6.5 vs OSU
The offense has nowhere to go but up. Liked the hire of Gattis. Questions still remain just how much control he'll have and also- how will he do as the sole OC when it's all him now.
They are freaking loaded at WR. Shea is by far the best returning QB they've had since Henne and it's not close. TE room is still very good despite Gentry leaving early. OL will probably be the best and deepest in Harbaugh's tenure thus far. RB is a major ? mark however. Will Evans make a return? How will the hot-shot frosh Zach Chabornnet perform? Both big question marks.
The real question will be how that defense rebounds after having it's ass handed to them by Ohio State and losing Devin Bush, Gary, Winovich, and David Long.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Anonymous Coward on March 19, 2019, 10:02:38 PM
OL will be the best since David Molk was around, and with another leap, it's possible they could become as good as the unit from 2006/7. The 2019 tackles may never be elite draft picks like Jake Long** but this could be the best Michigan's been up the middle this millenium. Bredeson, Ruiz and Onwenu are a load. And I feel good about Bredeson and Ruiz continuously improving. The uncertain one is Onwenu. He's already a nimble planet and plays like it 50% of the time. Consistency is the thing and that's all condition. His challenge, though, is that (at 6'3 - 350) he can't afford to take any days off with his weight if he wants to improve his endurance.

**(Runyan doesn't have much of an NFL future. He's crafty, and his game is entirely fine against all but the top 10% of DEs. The guy starting opposite him could be an elite future NFLer, but we don't even know that guy's name yet, let alone ability, so for now I'm assuming they'll top out at "Big Ten average" and even then Michigan would have a great line by recent standards, albeit with this blemish).
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: 847badgerfan on March 20, 2019, 02:34:23 PM
I just read that Chabornet is out for Spring with a knee. It's good to get mental reps, for sure, but there is nothing like contact to welcome kids to college football.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Anonymous Coward on March 20, 2019, 04:10:38 PM
@847badgerfan (https://www.cfb51.com/index.php?action=profile;u=5) - Yup. Charbonnet had been playing (senior HS ball) with a mild meniscus tear and Michigan asked him to wait on the operation, so he could have a better doctor and be waived of medical fees.
And you're right about Spring ball being key for early enrollees. He'll miss that and therefore forfeit the slim chance he had to be the starter v. Notre Dame. But since he's arriving as third on the depth chart, it was a slim chance. He wasn't going to start that game. So what this really affects is his rate of ascension from Games 2 through 12. That trajectory is probably going to be lower now.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: 847badgerfan on March 20, 2019, 04:41:15 PM
Best to play 4 and save the year.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Anonymous Coward on March 20, 2019, 05:15:59 PM
Sometimes yes (especially with linemen). But it only works for players who can't leave early for the NFL (or who can't graduate and be drafted high after 4). 

When it comes to blue chip skill position kids "play em if you got em" is probably the best way for a coach to maximize his team's long term talent. Because just like 5 > 4, so is 4 > 3 and 3 > 2. 

The only reason not to play Charbonnet this year is if he isn't good enough.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Hawkinole on March 21, 2019, 12:26:41 AM
Is it truly legal under NCAA rules for a donor to buy an international vacation for possibly 100 plus football players and staff that is not offered free of charge to nonathletes? 

I realize it doesn't seem to have advanced Michigan football, but if we did that at Iowa, Wisconsin would be screaming.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Mdot21 on March 21, 2019, 01:04:21 AM
Best to play 4 and save the year.
he's going to play this year, he's just going to miss spring ball unfortunately.
He was a 5*-ish RB. IF he's really that dude- he's not staying here 4 years anyway...so play him.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: 847badgerfan on March 21, 2019, 08:46:40 AM
Not if it risks further injury. I'd rest him until the last 4 games and then play him.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: 847badgerfan on March 21, 2019, 08:50:26 AM
Is it truly legal under NCAA rules for a donor to buy an international vacation for possibly 100 plus football players and staff that is not offered free of charge to nonathletes?

I realize it doesn't seem to have advanced Michigan football, but if we did that at Iowa, Wisconsin would be screaming.
It must be permitted, but I don't understand the nuts and bolts of it. On the surface, it looks like an extra benefit, not afforded to the student body. But, nobody's in NCAA jail, so it must be OK.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Anonymous Coward on March 21, 2019, 11:43:08 AM
Is it truly legal under NCAA rules for a donor to buy an international vacation for possibly 100 plus football players and staff that is not offered free of charge to nonathletes?

I realize it doesn't seem to have advanced Michigan football, but if we did that at Iowa, Wisconsin would be screaming.
Yes. It's just a gift that the NCAA allows (arguably educational), occurring in a window the NCAA allows. Anyone that wants can do the same.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Anonymous Coward on March 21, 2019, 11:45:38 AM
Not if it risks further injury. I'd rest him until the last 4 games and then play him.
If that's the medical report, any coach in America would do the same. But meniscus tears, especially mild ones, are like a gnat in the face. He had an excellent senior season *with* the injury, for example. The only serious part is experiential - that he's missing spring camp because of operation timing.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Mdot21 on March 21, 2019, 01:24:29 PM
Not if it risks further injury. I'd rest him until the last 4 games and then play him.
Yeah, except it doesn’t. His injury isn’t that serious. 
Mario Manningham had that injury and he got his knee scoped during the season and played like 4 weeks later. 
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on March 21, 2019, 03:36:24 PM
Is it truly legal under NCAA rules for a donor to buy an international vacation for possibly 100 plus football players and staff that is not offered free of charge to nonathletes?

I realize it doesn't seem to have advanced Michigan football, but if we did that at Iowa, Wisconsin would be screaming.
The donor didn't buy it. He just donated to the school at the time when Michigan took their players on this trip. Purely coincidental.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Mdot21 on March 21, 2019, 06:04:54 PM
The donor didn't buy it. He just donated to the school at the time when Michigan took their players on this trip. Purely coincidental.
The least schools could do is give their unpaid laborers a free trip during spring break when they actually have time off.

They get more out of that than they do being forced to play in some BS [insert soul less corporate sponsor here] who gives a shit bowl game that actually intrudes on their “school” time.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: MrNubbz on March 21, 2019, 06:38:19 PM
 Evans is suspended and off the team, there is a small chance he could be back however 
Did not know Evans was coming back,but he is exciting.Kind of reminded me of Curtis Samuel with out the surrounding cast
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Anonymous Coward on March 21, 2019, 07:51:34 PM
Did not know Evans was coming back,but he is exciting.Kind of reminded me of Curtis Samuel with out the surrounding cast
There's no guarantee he's coming back. But his situation is 100% academic bad kid decision making, he's still enrolled to fix it, and if he does so before running out of eligibility, he'll rejoin the team. 
He'll obviously miss spring camp. We don't know if he'll miss fall camp and/or fall season and/or next spring camp. So there's an awful lot up in the air.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Mdot21 on March 21, 2019, 10:40:07 PM
Did not know Evans was coming back,but he is exciting.Kind of reminded me of Curtis Samuel with out the surrounding cast
He’s not coming back for sure. He’s got a chance to come back though. 
Evans similar to Curtis Samuel but still not quite as talented. He’s like a Curtis Samuel Lite. Maybe a tiny bit smaller and not nearly as fast. I believe Samuel ran 4.35 at the combine. Evans probably runs 4.5 ish. Which is plenty fast. Just not elite speed like Samuel had.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Cincydawg on March 22, 2019, 09:06:40 AM
Is there any discernible grumbling about the state of the program with Michigan fans (beyond what is always present)?

What if they finish 8-5 this year?

Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Anonymous Coward on March 22, 2019, 11:21:45 AM
I'd say general satisfaction. It takes some doing to be one game from the Big Ten East crown at the end of November. Of course there's disappointment about not finishing from there but the overall feeling is that the right people are in charge and that consistently being in this position makes breaking through (at some point) a statistical inevitability. Harbaugh gets a lot of credit from us for climbing out of the RR/Hoke hole as fast as he did. And for recognizing his team's weaknesses and making strong hires to compensate.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Anonymous Coward on March 22, 2019, 11:23:37 AM
Finishing 8-5 this year would change that. But the same would be true for any fan base that sees its team favored in every game only to lose 5 times.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Cincydawg on March 22, 2019, 11:32:16 AM
I'm just curious as to when the seat would get really hot.  Obviously, 8-5 is not likely, 9-4 is perhaps somewhat possible, and 10-3 is not hard to see happening.

I see 4 regular season games that COULD be losses.  Lose half of those and a bowl game ...
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Mdot21 on March 22, 2019, 11:36:30 AM
Is there any discernible grumbling about the state of the program with Michigan fans (beyond what is always present)?

What if they finish 8-5 this year?
Hard to see them finishing 8-5 this year. If they did- man Harbaugh's seat would be white hot.
Schedule sets up nicely as they get ND, MSU, Iowa, and Ohio State all at home. They have to play Wisconsin on the road but it's early in the season which to me is a plus. I'd rather play Wisconsin 3rd week of the season and be fresh vs having to play them late in the season banged up. Wisconsin's style of offense also plays right into Don Brown's hands. It's those spread you out, tempo offenses that Brown seems to have no idea how to slow down. Other than that the only road game they really have is Penn State. And not sure how good Penn State is even going to be this year.
Offense returns nearly everybody and has the added benefit of getting Tarik Black healthy to start the entire season, new OC in Gattis, and another year of Ed Warriner shaping that OL into form. RS Frosh RT Jaylen Mayfield has been making lots of noise. This could wind up being the best OL that Harbaugh has had at Michigan by a wide margin. RB is really the major ? mark. Chris Evans' status is in limbo right now and the hotshot 5* early enrollee RB is missing all of spring ball with a knee injury.
Defense lost a lot, but there's still plenty there for it to be pretty solid. Kwity Paye, Josh Uche, and Aidan Hutchinson all good DL players. They also added the grad transfer DE from CMU who had 16 sacks last year in Mike Danna. They should have 4 really good DE's this year with those guys. And maybe their most talented DE in Luiji Villain is finally healthy and making noise in practice. They should be able to go 5 deep at DE if Villain is healthy. Ambry Thomas and LaVert Hill is a damn good CB duo. Josh Metellus should be a really solid starting strong safety. I'd be shocked if 5* hot-shot Dax Hill didn't walk right in and start at FS as a true soph. Kid is insanely athletic. They still have Khaleke Hudson and Josh Ross will probably be a better fit at MLB than he was at OLB- those two are pretty good LB's.
Who will be the 3rd LB to emerge and the depth at DT are probably the two glaring question marks for that defense. DT took a massive beating with Mone and Marshall graduating and Aubrey Solomon deciding to transfer to Tennessee. They've got Carlo Kemp and Mike Dwumfour and that's about it. Neither inspires much faith. Kemp is a mediocre player at best and Dwumfour is one trick pony- pass rush specialist DT who has struggles with the run at times. RS Soph. Donovan Jeter and RS Fr. Taylor Upshaw are the only other DT's on the roster that aren't true frosh. Mazi Smith, Chris Hinton, Gabe Newburg, and Mike Morris- all true frosh. Smith and Hinton probably play as true frosh. Wouldn't surprise me to see Newburg redshirt this year than be processed out and transfer- and then see Morris redshirt and switch to OL- where Florida State had wanted him to play before he flipped to Michigan.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Anonymous Coward on March 22, 2019, 11:43:07 AM
I'm just curious as to when the seat would get really hot.  Obviously, 8-5 is not likely, 9-4 is perhaps somewhat possible, and 10-3 is not hard to see happening.

I see 4 regular season games that COULD be losses.  Lose half of those and a bowl game ...
8-5 and life gets annoying for Harbaugh. 10-3 and nothing really changes. Ten wins is the plateau/status quo range. Anything over 10 in the regular season and there's a strong chance Michigan is in the BTCG and things are super peachy, because winning that means both a championship and a likely CoFoPO bid.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: MrNubbz on March 22, 2019, 11:49:41 AM
Hard to see them finishing 8-5 this year. If they did- man Harbaugh's seat would be white hot.
Schedule sets up nicely as they get ND, MSU, Iowa, and Ohio State all at home. They have to play Wisconsin on the road but it's early in the season which to me is a plus. I'd rather play Wisconsin 3rd week of the season and be fresh vs having to play them late in the season banged up. Wisconsin's style of offense also plays right into Don Brown's hands. It's those spread you out, tempo offenses that Brown seems to have no idea how to slow down. Other than that the only road game they really have is Penn State. And not sure how good Penn State is even going to be this year.
Good points if anything else the schedule favors "M".As you mention it's always better to get Bucky the 1st half of the season.The earlier the better before they get traction.Also not bad timing headed to Happy Valley,as I have no idea what to expect there.I'd imagine a drop off from the previous 2 seasons.Find out how good Franklin did on the recruiting trail
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Anonymous Coward on March 22, 2019, 11:51:33 AM
Wisconsin's style of offense also plays right into Don Brown's hands. It's those spread you out, tempo offenses that Brown seems to have no idea how to slow down.
I don't agree with that. He came back down to earth at the very end of last year because Michigan had two major holes as DT and 3rd CB. Well that and ... nobody had feasted on it before the OSU game and he had the #1 defense in the country. Obviously I wish he had seen the invisible problem, but I can't hate him for ignoring the invisible problem.
Also, his reputation at BC was exclusively as a destroyer of spread offenses. And he showed us that in 2016 when he ground OSU's offense to a halt. Overturning all of that because of three games (2017 PSU, 2018 OSU/UF) is silly when there's such a better explanation. That his personnel was less perfect than he knew based on their performance in every other game.
I trust he'll iron out a lot of that this offseason just as he ironed out a lot of the issues versus 2017 PSU last year. But (1) this is also the worst personnel he's ever had at Michigan at DT and (2) my most legit gripe will remain unchanged: he's too loyal to slow upperclassmen like Gil and Watson.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Mdot21 on March 22, 2019, 11:52:39 AM
8-5 and life gets annoying for Harbaugh. 10-3 and nothing really changes. Ten wins is the plateau/status quo range. Anything over 10 in the regular season and there's a strong chance Michigan is in the BTCG and things are super peachy, because winning that means both a championship and a likely CoFoPO bid.
I'd agree with this. I'm sure some fans would be very frustrated if he finished 10-3 again and lost to OSU- but hard to see them firing him after the guy had four 10 win seasons in 5 years when the program was basically a complete dumpster fire and joke for a decade under RR/Hoke.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Mdot21 on March 22, 2019, 12:03:22 PM
I don't agree with that. He came back down to earth at the very end of last year because Michigan had two major holes as DT and 3rd CB. Well that and ... nobody had feasted on it before the OSU game and he had the #1 defense in the country. Obviously I wish he had seen the invisible problem, but I can't hate him for ignoring the invisible problem.
Also, his reputation at BC was exclusively as a destroyer of spread offenses. And he showed us that in 2016 when he ground OSU's offense to a halt. Overturning all of that because of three games (2017 PSU, 2018 OSU/UF) is silly when there's such a better explanation. That his personnel was less perfect than he knew based on their performance in every other game.
I trust he'll iron out a lot of that this offseason just as he ironed out a lot of the issues versus 2017 PSU last year. But (1) this is also the worst personnel he's ever had at Michigan at DT and (2) my most legit gripe will remain unchanged: he's too loyal to slow upperclassmen like Gil and Watson.
It's not an invisible problem. It's a glaring problem that few teams on Michigan's schedule under Brown have actually had the personnel to exploit. Brown plays WAY too much man to man coverage across the board. He makes it easy pitch and catch for the QB/WR's because he's not mixing up the coverage enough and he asks marginally athletic LB's and safeties to do things they have no business doing like covering elite RB's and slot WR's. Someone like Mike McCray should NEVER, EVER, NEVER be manned up one on one single coverage vs an ELITE ELITE athlete like Saquon Barkley. That is a LOSE situation 100% of the time. Devin Gil isn't slow at all by the way. He's very fast for a LB'er.
OSU's offense ground to a halt in 2016 because they didn't have the QB with the arm to exploit Don Brown's scheme. JT was a heckuva college QB- but like MOST college QB's- he doesn't have the arm/football iq to exploit that defense. OSU's offense ground to a halt in 2017 as well. And then Dwayne Haskins came in and was wheeling and dealing and carved up that man to man coverage and made it look easy. And he did it again and did it even worse in 2018 as he absolutely shredded Michigan.
I'm not even really counting the Florida game. Those guys flat out quit that game to me. I'm just going off the 2017 Penn State game, the Dwayne Haskins series in 2017, and the 2018 OSU game.
Brown's schemes are highly exploitable. The problem is few college teams have QB's and WR's good enough to exploit them- so he gets away with his all-out blitzes and basic man to man coverages and pads stats vs crappy offenses that don't have the personnel to exploit him.

His style of defense fares much better vs teams like Wisconsin than they do teams that spread it out and air it out and get the ball in space to play makers.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Cincydawg on March 22, 2019, 12:25:58 PM
It has to do with expectations.  A fan base wanting nothing less than an NC will likely be disappointed (I know this).  A fan based that expects at least a division title and a W over the main rival has a better chance of being at least "OK".  I was thinking that 10-3 is probably "break even", better is good, and less than that is going to generate grumbling.

Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Mdot21 on March 22, 2019, 12:34:36 PM
It has to do with expectations.  A fan base wanting nothing less than an NC will likely be disappointed (I know this).  A fan based that expects at least a division title and a W over the main rival has a better chance of being at least "OK".  I was thinking that 10-3 is probably "break even", better is good, and less than that is going to generate grumbling.
10-3 just maintains status quo. He does worse- his seat starts to get really hot. He does better- 11-2 or 12-1- he's a hero again.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: 847badgerfan on March 22, 2019, 02:42:13 PM
I'd agree with this. I'm sure some fans would be very frustrated if he finished 10-3 again and lost to OSU- but hard to see them firing him after the guy had four 10 win seasons in 5 years when the program was basically a complete dumpster fire and joke for a decade under RR/Hoke.
Time to win. All the players are his now. There is no excuse anymore. Now that he is focused on actual coaching, instead of all the other BS, it will be interesting to see how he does this year. We know the guy can coach.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Anonymous Coward on March 22, 2019, 08:26:07 PM
https://mobile.twitter.com/orion_sang/status/1109219148528340993
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Anonymous Coward on March 22, 2019, 08:39:00 PM
Obviously any scheme can fail, be mediocre or dominate. So news like this can't predict which it'll be. But it tell us two things:

1) Michigan is no longer structurally incapable of an efficient 2-minute offense
2) Aside from tempo, the transition (re: concepts) may not be extreme at all, so we shouldn't expect a slow uptake. So if this year is worse that last in efficiency, that'd be *supremely* bad news.

Still, what I'm most interested in is decision making. I liked the old offense in structure but not in decisions. So I don't really care about the run/pass splits or scheme (except that a similar  scheme will be easier on the kids). Last year it was ~60/40 run/pass and I doubt it'll trend away much further than ~55/45.


We know none of that yet. Gattis has made good superficial decisions so far but the biggest tests are mostly unknowable until September.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: MaximumSam on March 23, 2019, 09:45:17 AM
Benjamin St-Juste done with a medical hardship.  I remember his recruitment - that's too bad
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Mdot21 on March 24, 2019, 06:13:27 PM
Benjamin St-Juste done with a medical hardship.  I remember his recruitment - that's too bad
Yeah, it really is too bad. I had high hopes for him. He was an unranked sleeper prospect from Canada that Michigan found early and after solid performances on the camp/combine circuit and the HS All-Star games his rankings in the recruit sites exploded. 247's own rankings they had him in the top 100 players in the nation. Hard to find legitimate 6'3 DB's that have the hips and feet to play CB in college and beyond.
Not sure how big a loss it is as he never really got any action in 2017 or 2018. Michigan should be A OK at DB even with David Long leaving early and Brandon Watson and Tyree Kinnel graduating.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Anonymous Coward on March 24, 2019, 08:08:24 PM
I'm sad for him, obviously, but I also was excited to put a Québécois on the national radar for CFB. Would have been original.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Mdot21 on March 25, 2019, 08:53:11 AM
https://www.detroitnews.com/story/sports/college/university-michigan/2019/03/24/chris-evans-finds-himself-outside-looking/3261534002/ (https://www.detroitnews.com/story/sports/college/university-michigan/2019/03/24/chris-evans-finds-himself-outside-looking/3261534002/)

Chris Evans article. In 2 weeks he’ll find out if he can win his appeal and come back in May. If not- he won’t be back until January of 2020. Sounds like Harbaugh is being as supportive as possible.

Hopefully he’ll be back in May. Knock on wood.

Chabornnet & Evans could be a really nice thunder and lightening duo. 
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Mdot21 on April 10, 2019, 01:46:25 PM
watching some of the video from one of the open spring practices, had 5 quick thoughts...

1) Shea Patterson and Joe Milton look like the best pure talents at QB. Patterson looks the most refined with the best mechanics and quickest release of all these QB's. Milton's release is lighting quick and the velocity/power he generates is absurd. McCaffrey and McNamara both look just kinda meh. Both have long, slow releases and the ball just doesn't shoot out of their hands the way it does with Patterson or Milton. McCaffrey's arm is just OK, and McNamara's arm looks kinda weak. Not buying all this McCaffrey might start hype. At all. Patterson is clearly the best QB on that team and the clear cut starter. As for Milton- that kid is a physical specimen. Not sure he'll ever reach his full potential, I always question whether or not you can really improve accuracy as a QB, but man holy shit is he physically gifted. Don't think it's an understatement to say he's Cam Newton-esque. He is absolutely massive at 6'5, 250+ with a howitzer of an arm.

2) Kwity Paye, Luiji Villain, and Aidan Hutchinson all look the part. That is exactly how you want defensive ends to look physically/athletically. Those guys look like future NFL players. Not quite Rashan Gary level specimen- very few are that level- but those guys aren't too far behind. And as good as Chase Winovich was as a player- he didn't look like any of these guys. Don't get me wrong, I'll take the productive player with the great motor every day over someone that looks the part but doesn't produce. All I'm saying- those 3 guys look like NFL draft pick defensive linemen. Josh Uche is up to 253 lbs and is a swiss army knife DE/OLB/Viper pass rush specialist, and Grad Transfer Mike Danna arrives in the fall. Those 5 guys should be a pretty good DE rotation with lots of production.

3) Ambry Thomas and Vincent Gray look the part at CB. I was really impressed with Gray's length and height and stickiness for a kid that size. Thomas is just a freak athlete. I think he's primed for a breakout season. Once LaVert Hill comes back, I don't think that CB room will miss a beat at all.

4) Jalen Mayfield should be the guy at RT. He looks physically ready now after redshirting and adding 20+ pounds. And he's much lighter on his feet than Andrew Steuber. It's just practice so you don't really know, but all the scuttlebutt has been those two have been neck and neck, and to me, if it's that close- you go with the younger guy with the bigger upside. And that's Mayfield.

5) True frosh WR Mike Sainristil looks great. Like really, really good. Surprised at how good actually. WR was already a position with an embarrassment of riches, and because DPJ and Nico Collins have both been out, Sainstril has gotten a lot of reps this spring. He's very shifty and quick in space, brings a dimension the bigger WR's really don't have. Sounds like he's going to play as a true frosh. Which is saying a lot about him because they have to get the ball to DPJ, Nico, Tarik Black, Ronnie Bell, and Oliver Martin.

Extra thought: RB position sucks. It's as bad as I've seen in years. They need to get Charbonnet healthy ASAP and get him going because he's the only RB on that roster with any real talent. And they better hope and pray Chris Evans wins his appeal as well. I really cannot believe how badly they recruited that position.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Anonymous Coward on April 13, 2019, 10:07:39 PM
McCaffery is actually my favorite QB on the depth chart. That doesn't mean I want him to start this year (no one should ever pass a returning starter who went 22-7 on TD-INT at 65%, including almost 500 rushing yards at 7.7YPC), but I do think he has a chance to be the best we've had at Michigan since Henson ... when he starts in 2020.

I also like that Dylan actually had meaningful game experience and already proved himself as unflappable down on the road versus ND. Rare leader / consistency / big game trait. I still remember prefering him to Shea after that game. Of course, then Shea put together a great season. But still DM made an impression on me early.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Anonymous Coward on April 13, 2019, 10:13:35 PM
Sounds like Stueber got starter reps over Mayfield. Could just be a motivational ploy, but when that happened with Runyan in the past, it proved to be predictive of the starter. When was the last time Harbaugh faked us out with spring OL starters?
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Anonymous Coward on April 13, 2019, 10:22:22 PM
I didn't get to watch, but from reading it seems the offense is very different structurally. The I-formation is gone. They've gone more spread. Two-back sets were almost nonexistent, and for the few examples they were in split-backs formation. Sounds like 3WR formations ruled the day. There were some 2TE sets, but even those were not very Harbaugh-like as the TEs were both out wide. 
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: 847badgerfan on April 14, 2019, 09:19:00 AM
So, no spring "game" in Ann Arbor, after all. Maybe Paul Chryst really is a trend-setter.  :72:





https://gbmwolverine.com/2019/04/08/michigan-football-spring-game-details-wolverines-disappointing/


Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: bayareabadger on April 14, 2019, 09:44:47 AM
I didn't get to watch, but from reading it seems the offense is very different structurally. The I-formation is gone. They've gone more spread. Two-back sets were almost nonexistent, and for the few examples they were in split-backs formation. Sounds like 3WR formations ruled the day. There were some 2TE sets, but even those were not very Harbaugh-like as the TEs were both out wide.
Wow, they've got an offense that looks like lots of offenses. That’s ... something I guess. 
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Anonymous Coward on April 14, 2019, 08:44:51 PM
Wow, they've got an offense that looks like lots of offenses. That’s ... something I guess.
Why the snark? This counts as news. The offense may be ordinary, it could even suck, but the fact that it is different now joins accumulating evidence that it will also be different in the fall. And ever since the Gattis hire that's remained an open question. 

Chipping away at enduring questions doesn't do it for you?
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: bayareabadger on April 14, 2019, 10:33:48 PM
Why the snark? This counts as news. The offense may be ordinary, it could even suck, but the fact that it is different now joins accumulating evidence that it will also be different in the fall. And ever since the Gattis hire that's remained an open question.

Chipping away at enduring questions doesn't do it for you?
It's hitting a small hobby horse of mine. Namely this:
Offenses can be judged on several sorts of axis I'll call them. Pro-style to spread, run-heavy to pass heavy, good to bad. There's predictable to unpredictable, but when push comes to shove, the people doing the predicting (defensive coaches) operate on a different level than most of us. 
And we, when push comes to shove care about one axis. Good to bad. But we often substitute any of the other axises for that one. The offense would be good if only it were more spread/wide-open/unpredictable. And we mix those words up. A bad offense must be predictable, or rely too much on two-back or whatnot. All the fanebases of all the bad offenses ask for the same thing (unless you root for a bad team Mike Leach actually coaches)
Difference in scheme doesn't equal difference in quality. 
Last year's Michigan offense was stupid diverse. It ran all sorts of 3-WR stuff. Ran a good amount of empty with a mobile QB. And split out TEs a good bit. It was pretty whizzy-gig in an era when most everyone runs similar stuff. BUT that QB was only so-so with accuracy, the WRs were pretty good but not loaded with killers, the tailback wasn't THAT great and the line wasn't that good. 

And because that offense was good not great and ran some I-form/singleback (even if singleback was hugely for play-action), it's treated like Lloyd Carr's 1998 offense. Running less two-back and more 3-WR, this doesn't matter unless you actually play football better. And you could play good football with a power playbook. (Last year, the offense might've been a bit too diverse, which is another story)

Technique, talent, execution and little things matter worlds more than the broad strokes of scheme. It's news, yes, but it doesn't say that much about the good to bad axis. It's a stand-in for hope. It just is. The "we're opening up the offense" is the counterpart to "the more aggressive defense."

The offense might well be better, but it won't be because their offense looks more like half of the MAC. It'll be because Patterson is better and the ground game is blocked and run better. Maybe it'll be all sorts of cooler, but if its cooler and unsuccessful, we'll be talking about Harbaugh and conservatism, and if it's the same scheme as this year and kills, Gattis will have opened it up. 
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Anonymous Coward on April 14, 2019, 11:26:15 PM
We've had that conversation - recently even. I liked your take and thought I had assimilated it. This time my claim was different. For however cyclic and dull, I went no further than concluding the thing you can interpret about the newness on offense is that there actually is a new offense. No value judgement or prediction on the good/bad continuuum. Just acknowledging it's different in ownership and structure. Despite the dullness that's newsworthy because it runs counter to many predictions, for example that Harbaugh wouldn't "hand over the keys" or permit a no huddle offense.

As for an actual value judgment: the QB, I'm surprised to see you describe Patterson as meh-accurate. 65%, 22-7 (td-int) seemed peachy to me.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: bayareabadger on April 15, 2019, 08:13:11 AM
We've had that conversation - recently even. I liked your take and thought I had assimilated it. This time my claim was different. For however cyclic and dull, I went no further than concluding the thing you can interpret about the newness on offense is that there actually is a new offense. No value judgement or prediction on the good/bad continuuum. Just acknowledging it's different in ownership and structure. Despite the dullness that's newsworthy because it runs counter to many predictions, for example that Harbaugh wouldn't "hand over the keys" or permit a no huddle offense.

As for an actual value judgment: the QB, I'm surprised to see you describe Patterson as meh-accurate. 65%, 22-7 (td-int) seemed peachy to me.
That’s fair. My knee just jerks hard at it. Maybe a bit over the top. I mean, his offense has always been interesting in its way. 
I’ll be interested to see what happens. If it’s different and how people react. It was most different last year, but Mich is in a tough spot where good isn’t good enough. 
I mentioned the accuracy thing becuase I went back and watched parts of the OSU and UF film and found some missed chances with very open receivers. I’ve not delved deep into the numbers, but Mich was a good ball-moving offense, slightly above average big play offense. 
Now that might be peachy, top-25 or so production. But if it is, and the defense is very good as it has been, we’re basically saying the run game taking a massive jump is what’s going to have to happen to get a Mich program that’s already very good to be elite. 
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: MrNubbz on April 15, 2019, 08:51:40 AM
Difference in scheme doesn't equal difference in quality.
Amen,fundamentals,mechanics,talent always factor in - the more things change the more they remain the same
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on April 15, 2019, 01:09:06 PM
Last year's Michigan offense was stupid diverse.
<snip>
(Last year, the offense might've been a bit too diverse, which is another story)

Technique, talent, execution and little things matter worlds more than the broad strokes of scheme. It's news, yes, but it doesn't say that much about the good to bad axis. It's a stand-in for hope. It just is. The "we're opening up the offense" is the counterpart to "the more aggressive defense."
I think this is an under-appreciated issue in the college ranks.
If Michigan's offense was too diverse for a bunch of student-athletes who have limited amounts of time to devote to actually practicing their scheme to execute it well, then the offense goes from "Good" to "Bad" on that axis VERY quickly. 
At the NFL level, I think scheme is more important. You have professionals who have the time to practice and learn to execute the entire playbook, so every player knows their responsibility on every snap. You have more reps. 
That's just not the case in college. Sometimes making the offense simpler makes it better, just because the players are able to execute. 
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Mdot21 on April 15, 2019, 04:53:31 PM
I think this is an under-appreciated issue in the college ranks.
If Michigan's offense was too diverse for a bunch of student-athletes who have limited amounts of time to devote to actually practicing their scheme to execute it well, then the offense goes from "Good" to "Bad" on that axis VERY quickly.
At the NFL level, I think scheme is more important. You have professionals who have the time to practice and learn to execute the entire playbook, so every player knows their responsibility on every snap. You have more reps.
That's just not the case in college. Sometimes making the offense simpler makes it better, just because the players are able to execute.
agree 100%.
Tempo and not necessarily simplicity- but not trying to do too much matters a hell of a lot in college. Look at Oregon under Chip Kelly. That was an offensive machine and they went fast and didn't try to do too much.
Harbaugh/Pep tried to do way too much crap the last few years. I think Mark Dantonio said after one of the MSU games a couple years back that Michigan ran 41 different formations that game. Like, C'MON man. These are college kids, not pros.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on April 15, 2019, 05:02:29 PM
Tempo and not necessarily simplicity- but not trying to do too much matters a hell of a lot in college. Look at Oregon under Chip Kelly. That was an offensive machine and they went fast and didn't try to do too much.
I was going to mention tempo... One of the things that Kelly always talked about is that not only did they play fast, they practiced fast. That way they got more reps in practice than other teams did. 
I think they also tried not to disrupt practices as much. A lot of coaches want to fix something RIGHT THEN, and stop practice to do it. Kelly would IIRC try to run practice non-stop and then go over what needed to change in film study, which I think doesn't count as practice time so it wasn't part of the restrictions on how much time you can practice. 
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Anonymous Coward on April 15, 2019, 07:15:48 PM
Kelly would IIRC try to run practice non-stop and then go over what needed to change in film study, which I think doesn't count as practice time so it wasn't part of the restrictions on how much time you can practice.
I believe that is incorrect. I think scheduled film study with coaches and also scheduled chalk talk with coaches counts as practice time. During fall camp Michigan has these infamous 4 hour practices and makes it work (re: the limit on allowable camp hours) by 100% cutting out chalk talk and organized film study from the days with 4 hour practices. On those days, if given 4 structured hours, Harbaugh spends all those seconds on the field. 

Everyone has a different system.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on April 15, 2019, 09:22:46 PM
I believe that is incorrect. I think scheduled film study with coaches and also scheduled chalk talk with coaches counts as practice time. During fall camp Michigan has these infamous 4 hour practices and makes it work (re: the limit on allowable camp hours) by 100% cutting out chalk talk and organized film study from the days with 4 hour practices. On those days, if given 4 structured hours, Harbaugh spends all those seconds on the field.

Everyone has a different system.
Yeah, you're probably right. Maybe they only were on-field for 90 minutes of their allotted practice session and the idea was to get as many reps in those 90 minutes and then review them in the film room. But that they really tried to avoid stalling practices for on-field instruction unless absolutely necessary, so they didn't have 40 people standing around while one player was getting chewed out.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Anonymous Coward on April 16, 2019, 11:11:23 AM
FWIW, I think the question remains open. I just am skeptical. I suppose I could actually visit the rule book.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Temp430 on April 30, 2019, 11:33:17 AM
Michigan's offense last year was absolutely murder to watch.  I frequently found myself yelling, "Move!" at my TV to encourage them to get up to the line of scrimmage sooner.  So any increase in tempo is welcome.  Play selection at times was baffling.  I remember one game where they ran a Higdon draw on 5 or six first downs in a row, with a max gain of like 2 yards.  So, if Gattis shakes it up that's great.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Anonymous Coward on April 30, 2019, 01:11:18 PM
That's right. An offense designed to go fast can always slow down. They have more access to the full sliding scale. But last year we saw an offense that seemed structurally insistent on a full huddle per play and could not speed up.

I welcome the flexibility. Also: although "hurry up and wait" kills a lot of entertainment for fans, until the rules change, it is a superior strategy in that it limits defensive shift changes - giving the potential to lock tired players or mismatches on the field - and brings other benefits in terms of a full clock to read the defense and maximize the chances you are properly adapting, including time for the coaches to change signals. This isn't to argue that Michigan wasn't reading the defense last year, just to note that they were bad at it, too often appeared rushed, and that the impetus seemed almost solely on the players as they were characteristically frantic to snap the ball before the play clock expired.

Even at the bottom of the barrel, these are promising changes.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: MrNubbz on April 30, 2019, 02:27:54 PM
Moving forward good stuff for the Maize & Blue faithful.Just don't get too creative the last week end of Novenber
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: ELA on May 04, 2019, 01:15:09 PM
Brandon Peters transferring
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: bayareabadger on May 04, 2019, 04:45:17 PM
"They ran a Higdon draw on 5 or six first downs in a row"

I will bet $5 that is not a thing that happened, if only because what we call a draw ends up being a catch-all for every zone run out of the gun and some gap runs.

But that reminded me, this is a video that if you watch with a keen eye is very informative. Just getting to see where creases formed, how much numbers matter on calls and when a key broken tackle or two was a killer. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rb0RDZy7zLg
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: ELA on May 04, 2019, 11:26:42 PM
Met Chase Winovich at a charity event tonight, really, really nice kid.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Mdot21 on May 06, 2019, 02:13:49 PM
Brandon Peters transferring
surprised it didn't happen sooner. McCaffrey jumped him last year to be QB 2 and there were points in the games where they put in the true frosh Milton before Peters.

Kinda shocked that Peters didn't work out. My guess is he transfers home to Purdue and kills it under Brohm.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Mdot21 on May 06, 2019, 02:14:26 PM
Met Chase Winovich at a charity event tonight, really, really nice kid.
perfect fit for the Patriots. He just might wind up having a better career than lots of guys that were picked way before him.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Riffraft on May 06, 2019, 04:15:42 PM
perfect fit for the Patriots. He just might wind up having a better career than lots of guys that were picked way before him.
Told my extreme Patriots Fan wife when they pick him that I hated the pick. She asked why, isn't he that good? I said no because he will fit in great with the Patriots. 
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on May 06, 2019, 05:52:15 PM
surprised it didn't happen sooner. McCaffrey jumped him last year to be QB 2 and there were points in the games where they put in the true frosh Milton before Peters.

Kinda shocked that Peters didn't work out. My guess is he transfers home to Purdue and kills it under Brohm.
Doubt it. Purdue's QB room is crowded as it is. 

While Peters is obviously very talented, is it expected he can come in on day 1 and unseat Elijah Sindelar? Both have 2 years eligibility remaining, and while I think Sindelar wants to be in the NFL in 2020, there are 3 good QB recruits behind him already.

So Peters would have to be thinking that he can beat out Sindelar in 2019, or hope Sindelar does so well he goes to the pros in 2020 and that his natural ability will put him ahead of Purdue's 3 very good underclassmen, two of which were hand-picked by Brohm in recruiting.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Mdot21 on May 07, 2019, 12:25:42 PM
Doubt it. Purdue's QB room is crowded as it is.

While Peters is obviously very talented, is it expected he can come in on day 1 and unseat Elijah Sindelar? Both have 2 years eligibility remaining, and while I think Sindelar wants to be in the NFL in 2020, there are 3 good QB recruits behind him already.

So Peters would have to be thinking that he can beat out Sindelar in 2019, or hope Sindelar does so well he goes to the pros in 2020 and that his natural ability will put him ahead of Purdue's 3 very good underclassmen, two of which were hand-picked by Brohm in recruiting.
for some reason I was thinking that Sindelar was a SR. Purdue probably wouldn't be a great fit for him then. I think Peters has his degree so he'd be able to play right away wherever he goes. Ohio State has like 1 legit QB on scholly right. Maybe he transfers there lol.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: betarhoalphadelta on May 07, 2019, 12:29:23 PM
for some reason I was thinking that Sindelar was a SR. Purdue probably wouldn't be a great fit for him then. I think Peters has his degree so he'd be able to play right away wherever he goes. Ohio State has like 1 legit QB on scholly right. Maybe he transfers there lol.
Sindelar is a 5th-year RS senior now, but due to injuries has already been granted a 6th year by the NCAA. So he has an extra year. 
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on May 17, 2019, 12:43:58 PM
My analysis of B1G HFA for Michigan from @ELA (https://www.cfb51.com/index.php?action=profile;u=55) 's countdown thread:

Michigan:  The favorability or unfavorability of the Wolverines schedule is, IMHO, TBD.  Assuming that ELA's rankings hold there is still the question of gaps.  What I mean is that if Michigan is near-equal to tOSU and much better than PSU and UW then their schedule is great.  They should beat tOSU due to HFA and win the road games against PSU and UW because they are better.  Alternatively, if tOSU is much better than Michigan and the Wolverines are near-equal to PSU and UW then their schedule sucks because they'll likely lose at home to tOSU AND lose the road games against PSU and UW. 
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Temp430 on June 03, 2019, 07:49:59 AM
Michigan RB Chris Evans will not be playing football this season.  I guess we kind of knew that was likely already.

https://www.detroitnews.com/story/sports/college/university-michigan/2019/06/02/running-back-chris-evans-not-play-michigan-season/1320407001 (https://www.detroitnews.com/story/sports/college/university-michigan/2019/06/02/running-back-chris-evans-not-play-michigan-season/1320407001/)
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Temp430 on June 03, 2019, 07:53:17 AM
I came across one article on how much Michigan's OL play has improved under Coach Warrier.  Given the stark contrast in protection afforded QBs in The Game last year it seemed a little earlier to chug this year's OL Kool Aid.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: 847badgerfan on June 05, 2019, 08:29:03 PM
Is Oliver Martin going to transfer? Kid should have either stayed home, or went to Madison, if so.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Mdot21 on June 05, 2019, 08:52:19 PM
Edit: whoops.

Looks like Martin is in fact in the transfer portal. 

Score one for the chatsports dude. Blind squirrel finds a nut every once in awhile as they say.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: ELA on June 05, 2019, 08:59:05 PM
Is Oliver Martin going to transfer? Kid should have either stayed home, or went to Madison, if so.
Yeah crazy that Iowa, UW, MSU, others, built a relationship with him.  Harbaugh shows up, offers him, jumps in a pool, and that relationship doesn't stick.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Mdot21 on June 05, 2019, 09:40:08 PM
Yeah crazy that Iowa, UW, MSU, others, built a relationship with him.  Harbaugh shows up, offers him, jumps in a pool, and that relationship doesn't stick.
I mean let’s be honest too, it was a bad move on his part to go join a WR class that consisted of DPJ, Tarik Black, and Nico Collins. DPJ was a 5* and the #1 WR recruit of that class and Black and Nico we’re both 4*, top 100ish overall players. 

Martin was clearly 4th best of that bunch from the word go. That’s a WR logjam to join- especially in a “basic bitch” offense as craptastic with as anemic a passing attack as what Harbaugh and Pep had been running.

Harbaugh is a guy that likes to feature the FB and use as many as 3 TEs in some formations. You don’t go play WR for him, you’re just not gonna get enough balls come your way. You especially don’t go play WR for him when the 3 others you come in with are better than you are.

DPJ is an absolute freak and he flashed his potential last year despite playing in a crappy offense. 

Nico had some big time moments and was probably the most consistent of all the receivers. Great deep ball and red zone target. 

Black is the best they’ve got but he can’t stay healthy for an entire season his first two years. 

Here’s to hoping Black is finally healthy and Harbaugh turns the reigns over to Gattis and keeps his nose out of the offense.

Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Hawkinole on June 06, 2019, 02:11:07 AM
I still have a difficult time understanding why Oliver Martin would transfer after playing for Michigan his redshirt freshman year. Unless he goes to an FCS, or below program, he must sit out one-year. Either something is very wrong for him academically at Michigan, or he is a very poor fit on the football team, or he is very home sick. When I visited Ann Arbor it seemed so much like Iowa City that it is hard to imagine a guy from Iowa City would not feel right at home in Ann Arbor.

I wish Oliver Martin well, wherever he goes.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: ELA on June 06, 2019, 08:29:39 AM
Unless he goes to an FCS, or below program, he must sit out one-year.
Maybe if this were 2014
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Cincydawg on June 06, 2019, 09:02:56 AM
This should be a fascinating year for Michigan, OSU at home, a lot of expectations, a tough schedule, with a few breaks they have a good shot at the playoff.

Or 10-3.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: 847badgerfan on June 06, 2019, 09:05:54 AM
WR room is very crowded in Madison. Not sure about MSU's WR situation, but I have to believe he's going to Iowa. That being the case, he will not get a waiver. Those are reserved for helmet schools only.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: fezzador on June 06, 2019, 07:41:24 PM
Martin’s not going to Iowa.  Had he wanted to be a Hawk, he’d already be there.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: bayareabadger on June 07, 2019, 12:14:39 AM
WR room is very crowded in Madison. Not sure about MSU's WR situation, but I have to believe he's going to Iowa. That being the case, he will not get a waiver. Those are reserved for helmet schools only.
Is it though?

I'll take more talent please. 
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: 847badgerfan on June 07, 2019, 10:31:43 AM
Yeah, they have a lot of guys who are good/very good. I expect to see the WR's look a whole lot better this season. But, I don't want to turn this thread into a Wisconsin one. 
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Cincydawg on June 08, 2019, 08:09:46 AM
It strikes me as rare that a wide received can have a large impact on an offense.  It happens when you have a guy who is truly elite such that he has to be found before every snap and probably doubled, or lined up with your best guy on D.  Most of them in top programs strike me as capable and very good but not elite.  Some have good hands, run good route, have elite speed and cutting ability, and length, whatever, but few have the entire package.

A very good, but not elite, running back or quarter back might have a greater impact on the game than a very good but not elite WR.

Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: MrNubbz on June 08, 2019, 08:20:47 AM
But, I don't want to turn this thread into a Wisconsin one.
You're gettin' soft man
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: FearlessF on June 08, 2019, 08:24:30 AM
true, but in the right offense, which is more and more the case, the WRs are having more impact

obviously, to have that impact, you need the QB with the arm talent to get the ball to the outside and down the field

if you've affected the defense to pull a safety back to help, it opens up things for other players (TE & RB) underneath and in the middle of the field

even in an offense like the Badgers that gets 2,000+ yards from the tailback, a very good WR can make those plays on the 2 or 3 chances a game that they throw over the top
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Mdot21 on June 08, 2019, 03:18:32 PM
It strikes me as rare that a wide received can have a large impact on an offense.  It happens when you have a guy who is truly elite such that he has to be found before every snap and probably doubled, or lined up with your best guy on D.  Most of them in top programs strike me as capable and very good but not elite.  Some have good hands, run good route, have elite speed and cutting ability, and length, whatever, but few have the entire package.

A very good, but not elite, running back or quarter back might have a greater impact on the game than a very good but not elite WR.
Agreed. WR is a completely dependent position. Needs the line and QB and RBs helping him to get his. 

QB and RB can do way more on their own and get way more opportunities/touches a game. 

Even a dominant WR might only get 8-10 touches a game. 

The QB is touching it every play and the RB is getting at least double the touches of a WR on average.

Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Hawkeye0111 on June 11, 2019, 12:24:36 PM
Reports are that Martin has begun classes in Iowa City and is joining the team for workouts this week. 
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: OrangeAfroMan on June 11, 2019, 03:40:21 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/tpWxVd2.png)


As per a college logos site, this was UM's main logo pre-1978.  Can a Michigan man confirm or deny this?  I'm using this for my pre-'78 UM teams for my card & dice game (which is nearing release).  I don't want to use it unless some of you recall it from your youth.

I'm hoping it's not some silly monstrosity no one has ever seen.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: ELA on June 11, 2019, 03:56:01 PM
I can't confirm it was their MAIN logo, but I can confirm it was A logo until well after that.  I had a good deal of stuff with that logo on it in the 80s and early 90s.  I think it may have been replaced by the MICHIGAN in a block across the M.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Anonymous Coward on June 11, 2019, 04:15:35 PM
Yeah, they have a lot of guys who are good/very good. I expect to see the WR's look a whole lot better this season. But, I don't want to turn this thread into a Wisconsin one.
Ha, I was scrolling up and just assumed you were here flattering the Michigan receivers.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: OrangeAfroMan on June 11, 2019, 04:20:48 PM
Here's the site, and it has the years of each logo.
http://www.sportslogos.net/logos/list_by_team/750/Michigan_Wolverines/ (http://www.sportslogos.net/logos/list_by_team/750/Michigan_Wolverines/)



I thought the block M with "Michigan" across it was a major logo, too, but I was told by UM people here the yellow block M has always meant 'Michigan'.  What I'm doing is trying to use the various logos through the years used by schools, as my team cards go back to 1971.  So I use the big red N for Nebraska until the mid-90s, where it's the red N with black "Huskers" across it.  I use the elephant through the A until a certain year for Alabama until it changed to the fancy A within a circle as it is now, etc.  



I guess my question is that if I was a Michigan fan and bought this game with my beloved 1973 Michigan team set in it, would I prefer the yellow block M or the one with the wolverine on it?  Which would seem more correct?
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Anonymous Coward on June 11, 2019, 04:22:31 PM
I still have a difficult time understanding why Oliver Martin would transfer after playing for Michigan his redshirt freshman year. Unless he goes to an FCS, or below program, he must sit out one-year. Either something is very wrong for him academically at Michigan, or he is a very poor fit on the football team, or he is very home sick. When I visited Ann Arbor it seemed so much like Iowa City that it is hard to imagine a guy from Iowa City would not feel right at home in Ann Arbor.

I wish Oliver Martin well, wherever he goes.
That's right. Based on business prospects and logic, it was not a good idea to leave. Especially since at least one and perhaps as many as three of DPJ/Black/Collins will be clearing space after this year. So he was nearly guaranteed to be a starter in 2020 by staying at Michigan.

M fans argue "but Sainristil just overtook him!" but I disagree both on spring camp prematurity and on the basis that Martin's skill set is different than Sainristil's, more broad; Martin can certainly excel outside the slot.

The only way to make sense of Martin's exit requires the premise that - whether for personal, academic, and/or football reasons - he was deeply unhappy in Ann Arbor.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: OrangeAfroMan on June 11, 2019, 04:23:27 PM
Here's the site, and it has the years of each logo.
http://www.sportslogos.net/logos/list_by_team/750/Michigan_Wolverines/ (http://www.sportslogos.net/logos/list_by_team/750/Michigan_Wolverines/)



I thought the block M with "Michigan" across it was a major logo, too, but I was told by UM people here the yellow block M has always meant 'Michigan'.  What I'm doing is trying to use the various logos through the years used by schools, as my team cards go back to 1971.  So I use the big red N for Nebraska until the mid-90s, where it's the red N with black "Huskers" across it.  I use the elephant through the A until a certain year for Alabama until it changed to the fancy A within a circle as it is now, etc. 



I guess my question is that if I was a Michigan fan and bought this game with my beloved 1973 Michigan team set in it, would I prefer the yellow block M or the one with the wolverine on it?  Which would seem more correct?
AC can you chime in on this?
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Anonymous Coward on June 11, 2019, 04:31:56 PM
Sorry, OAM, not avoiding, but my input isn't unequivocal and I feel generally unhelpful on how this has changed through the years. 

I can confirm that the official logo is presently a naked, maize block M on a blue background. It's homogeneous establishment as a the ONLY approved logo was perhaps the only good/great thing that Dave Brandon ever did as AD.

I won't be surprised if the wolverine-on-the-M or MICHIGAN-on-the-M logos were at some point the standard/official logo but cannot help confirm that.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: ELA on June 11, 2019, 04:38:29 PM
Here's the site, and it has the years of each logo.
http://www.sportslogos.net/logos/list_by_team/750/Michigan_Wolverines/ (http://www.sportslogos.net/logos/list_by_team/750/Michigan_Wolverines/)



I thought the block M with "Michigan" across it was a major logo, too, but I was told by UM people here the yellow block M has always meant 'Michigan'.  What I'm doing is trying to use the various logos through the years used by schools, as my team cards go back to 1971.  So I use the big red N for Nebraska until the mid-90s, where it's the red N with black "Huskers" across it.  I use the elephant through the A until a certain year for Alabama until it changed to the fancy A within a circle as it is now, etc. 



I guess my question is that if I was a Michigan fan and bought this game with my beloved 1973 Michigan team set in it, would I prefer the yellow block M or the one with the wolverine on it?  Which would seem more correct?
The plain Block M has always been a logo, but I'd argue it wasn't the primary logo until the last decade or so.  Before that the MICHIGAN inside the box was clearly the primary logo.  Just for simple form it wasn't necessarily used on hats or what not.  But I do believe the Wolverine was at least co-primary through the 80s and early 90s.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Anonymous Coward on June 11, 2019, 04:45:54 PM
I won't fight any of that.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: OrangeAfroMan on June 11, 2019, 06:52:23 PM
Okay, well I looked up some old games from the 80s, and see the M with 'Michigan' across it as the logo used by the TV broadcasts, so I'll change it to that.
'78-'96 will have the Michigan in front, and the yellow block M from '96-on.

I'll leave the wolverine pre-'78.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: ELA on July 07, 2019, 08:44:10 PM
Whoops

https://twitter.com/cfbquotes/status/1147976312910274560?s=19
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: CatsbyAZ on July 07, 2019, 08:49:12 PM
Liked by Kevin Durant’s burner
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: ELA on July 07, 2019, 08:49:44 PM
Liked by Kevin Durant’s burner
And Skip Bayless
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Anonymous Coward on July 07, 2019, 08:54:43 PM
Well that's pretty hamhanded and stupid. How long until we get the ubiquitous "I was hacked?"
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: ELA on July 08, 2019, 09:34:49 AM
Well that's pretty hamhanded and stupid. How long until we get the ubiquitous "I was hacked?"
Actually seems like it was just straight up made up, and the screen grab was a fake
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Anonymous Coward on July 08, 2019, 09:51:43 AM
Well that's less unspeakably lame! My team's QB doesn't actually use/need a burner acct to settle lowest common denominator sports beefs online.

https://mobile.twitter.com/mgoblog/status/1148033264550109184
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Honestbuckeye on July 08, 2019, 07:16:38 PM
Patterson is way too classy and smart- obvious fake.  He is a good kid and will be a beast this year.  
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Anonymous Coward on July 08, 2019, 07:27:34 PM
I guess I've become jaded. Not sure of what, social media I guess or maybe still of off seasons from a few years back. Anyhow: it seemed plausible to me.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: bayareabadger on July 08, 2019, 09:45:08 PM
Patterson is way too classy and smart- obvious fake.  He is a good kid and will be a beast this year. 
I see what your doing. Very good. 
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Anonymous Coward on August 05, 2019, 11:42:23 AM
Michigan's roster on the official website is getting slowly updated today. We still don't know the new RT, but either way the OL will be big and experienced (returning starters in black). Michigan's OL coach (Warriner) is being described -- from interviews -- as far more smiley than this time last summer:

MICHIGAN
6'5" - 321    Runyan
6'5" - 325    Bredeson
6'4" - 319    Ruiz
6'3" - 350    Onwenu
6'7" - 334    Steuber
6'4.8" - 329.8    AVG


Orrrrrrrr...

MICHIGAN
6'5" - 321    Runyan
6'5" - 325    Bredeson
6'4" - 319    Ruiz
6'3" - 350    Onwenu
6'5" - 319    Mayfield
6'4.5" - 326.8    AVG



Fans are hoping/expecting Mayfield. He's younger, was a bigger recruit and may have the group's best foot speed/balance. He and Stueber are going into camp tied. I'm not sure I have a rooting interest (except, if it's a tie, for it to go to the young guy). Mostly, I'm just excited by the starters as well as by the fact that for the first time since ... maybe 2000 (with Backus, Hutchinson, Brandt, Goodwin, Williams) Michigan has both an excellent starting line and what looks like excellent position-for-position depth behind them.

It feels great to have turned that corner (starting *and* back-up quality on the offensive line). Perhaps no positional kind of highest end play changes a teams destiny as positively as it can when that highest end play comes from the OL.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Temp430 on August 05, 2019, 11:56:34 AM
Aint drinking that OL Kool Aid.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: MrNubbz on August 05, 2019, 12:27:09 PM
They do look stout up front,Booger has to cut loose this season.It appears he has the line and I know he has the wide outs.As long as their decent under center,not sure about RB's
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Mdot21 on August 05, 2019, 12:28:48 PM
Quote
Aint drinking that OL Kool Aid.
I'm with you. Not going to believe it until I see it. Ed Warriner is a helluva an OL coach, one of the best in the business, but they've got to prove it before I buy into the hype.

They can list Runyan at 6'5 all they want, but he's 6'3 and change max. Michigan's schedule last year was pretty fortunate, they didn't face that many elite edge rushing teams. The teams with the better edge rushers- Runyan struggled mightly with those teams. He's just not a legit LT. Just happens to be the best/most experienced they had at the moment last season. I'd say to hell with it and try Jalen Mayfield or Ryan Hayes there, but those guys are RS Freshman and still probably need another year of development before they are truly ready for prime time at LT.

Bredeson and Ruiz are pretty much as listed in terms of size, but need to see more development from Ruiz this season. Ruiz was too up and down. Bredeson is rock steady and is about as good as it gets. No worries there. As far as size goes- they like to fudge Mike Onwenu. Who knows how big he really is. Onwenu is absolutely dominant when he's not running out of gas. Problem is, he's always running out of gas. He is as big and strong of an interior player as I have ever seen, but also wildly inconsistent. The guy is immovable when he gets his hands on the DL in front of him. His conditioning needs to improve drastically if he wants to live up to that lofty recruiting billing and massive potential and find himself in the NFL. It's a shame, because he should be the best guy on that OL with his size and strength. His feet for a guy his size are insane.

RT is the big question mark. I THINK Mayfield will be the guy, but we'll see.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Anonymous Coward on August 05, 2019, 12:59:57 PM
I don't think Michigan needs elite tackle pass pro to have a great offense. Maybe my view is off, but I think they're aiming to shift to wrecking people on the ground and through the air by RPOs. Which shifts focus to the strength of the team -- Bredeson/Ruiz/Onwenu, Shea, and the WRs.

Aside from the no-huddle, loss of the fullback position, and drop in TE snaps, perhaps the next best heuristic for the extent to which Harbaugh has given over the offense to Gattis will be the percentage of pass plays that are late-developing. I'm expecting that fraction to drop by a lot. WIth it being replaced by short and intermediate stuff -- much of it likely going over the top.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Mdot21 on August 05, 2019, 02:35:36 PM
Quote
I don't think Michigan needs elite tackle pass pro to have a great offense. Maybe my view is off, but I think they're aiming to shift to wrecking people on the ground and through the air by RPOs. Which shifts focus to the strength of the team -- Bredeson/Ruiz/Onwenu, Shea, and the WRs.

Aside from the no-huddle, loss of the fullback position, and drop in TE snaps, perhaps the next best heuristic for the extent to which Harbaugh has given over the offense to Gattis will be the percentage of pass plays that are late-developing. I'm expecting that fraction to drop by a lot. WIth it being replaced by short and intermediate stuff -- much of it likely going over the top.
You make a great point there.

As long as they really make a huge shift in the offense with Gattis and they spread it out 4 & 5 WR's more and sit the TE's and FB's on the sidelines and go with tempo and try to get the ball out of Shea's hands quickly- they'll be able to hide Runyan a lot better. Not too worried about the RT spot to be honest. Steuber is a massive, powerful human being with long arms and Jalen Mayfield is like a proto-type of what you want an offensive tackle in todays game to look like physically. So is the other RS frosh tackle Ryan Hayes for that matter. That's what your tackles ought to look like. It's the LT spot that worries me to be honest. Runyan is 6'3.5" MAX and he's got short arms.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: bayareabadger on August 05, 2019, 02:45:07 PM


You make a great point there.

As long as they really make a huge shift in the offense with Gattis and they spread it out 4 & 5 WR's more and sit the TE's and FB's on the sidelines and go with tempo and try to get the ball out of Shea's hands quickly- they'll be able to hide Runyan a lot better. Not too worried about the RT spot to be honest. Steuber is a massive, powerful human being with long arms and Jalen Mayfield is like a proto-type of what you want an offensive tackle in todays game to look like physically. So is the other RS frosh tackle Ryan Hayes for that matter. That's what your tackles ought to look like. It's the LT spot that worries me to be honest. Runyan is 6'3.5" MAX and he's got short arms. 
A small clarification. You will almost assured see very few 4 WR sets and almost no 5 WR sets. 

outside pure air raid teams, four receivers is pretty uncommon.

Chances are, you’ll see a lot of 3 WR, 1TE looks as that is the standard and the most versatile when going fast. There will be times when they split out four or five, but chances are you’ll still have one TE and RB in there. 

(Interestingly Mich broke out a look with all five guys wide semi-often last season)

Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Anonymous Coward on August 05, 2019, 04:16:59 PM
(Interestingly Mich broke out a look with all five guys wide semi-often last season)

I remember those. I'm not sure the definition of semioften but think we both wish we had those numbers. Relevant here: I suspect (relatively) many of those were slow-developing plays.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Mdot21 on August 08, 2019, 10:33:27 AM
Josh Gattis says Tarik Black has turned it up another notch once fall camp hit. Gattis also says true frosh Cornelius Johnson is wowing him.  

My exctiment levels for the season just went up a notch. That WR position group is loaded. Cornelius Johnson was in my opinion one of the most underrated WR recruits in the 2019 class and my favorite one that Michigan signed in 2019 precisely because he was so eerily similar to Tarik Black. Sounds like he's already make a big impression.

If they can't really push the ball all over the field and often to the main trio of DPJ, Black, Nico, and their sidekick WR's - then Harbaugh should just fire himself.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Mdot21 on August 13, 2019, 06:50:28 PM
sounds like another true frosh WR has been impressing new OC/WR coach Josh Gattis in fall camp. Giles Jackson is a 5'9ish, 180ish jitterbug that has been getting lot of buzz. Jackson ran 4.43 at the Nike Opening last year to go along with a 3.85 shuttle and a 39" vertical. He's the sort of slot ninja that this offense has been sorely lacking.

They are absolutely loaded at WR. I swear to god if they don't have an explosive offense in 2019, I am going to slap Harbaugh in the face and be done with him. There really is zero excuse. This is their year to breakout on offense. Tarik Black is their best WR when healthy, and he's finally back healthy. Nico Collins and DPJ just got a full year of real starting experience with a legit QB in Shea Patterson and are both ready to take that next step. You have that trio right there to really lean on.

Then you have Ronnie Bell who had a solid true frosh year and really beat out Oliver Martin for snaps and averaged 19 YPC and had 2 receiving TD's. Bell should be able to build on that year and be a solid #4 or #5 WR. Mike Sainstril came in during spring ball and was making a ton of noise in the slot. The past week all the buzz about young WR's stepping up has been about Cornelius Johnson and Giles Jackson really impressing.  They don't need the young guys to carry the load, just get their feet wet and make the most of any snaps they get.

With a brand new OC in Josh Gattis and with 4/5ths of the starting OL coming back and with a senior year QB coming back, there's no excuse. This is Harbaugh's put up or shut up year.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Mdot21 on August 13, 2019, 07:01:19 PM
Urban Meyer on Michigan - starts at 5:45

https://youtu.be/VfeQzz4MV9s?t=345


cliffs:

this will be Michigan's best OL yet under Harbaugh. They are big, experienced, and have an excellent coach in Warriner. Michigan has 3 legitimate high draft picks at WR that have not been given opportunities. They brought in a new co-ordinator to do that. Remains to be seen how the transition from pro style to spread, and will it be a true spread. That often takes time to grow, and will Coach Harbaugh allow them that time to grow. Ironic that this could be their best offense yet and they lose some really good players on defense, but they will always be good on defense.

Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Cincydawg on August 13, 2019, 07:11:12 PM
Did Urban just say which conference was best?
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Mdot21 on August 13, 2019, 07:39:41 PM
Did Urban just say which conference was best?
SEC is the best imo.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: ELA on August 14, 2019, 12:44:22 AM
I kind of would have respected him more if he had just said "well, I'm gone, so they have a shot."
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Mdot21 on August 14, 2019, 08:37:12 AM
I kind of would have respected him more if he had just said "well, I'm gone, so they have a shot."
Lol. That’s more like something Jim would say. Urban handles himself way too professionally, is way too media savvy and has too much class to pop off at the mouth like that. Urban is a politician.

Now maybe he bends the truth a little bit, maybe he lies, maybe he looks the other way on things sometimes- but the guy sure as hell knows how to handle himself with the media/public. Jim? He’s just a weirdo who will say/do anything.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Anonymous Coward on August 14, 2019, 09:49:09 AM
That's just the continuum of tact and candor, and how these traits naturally oppose. It's common for someone with the habit of being maximally transparent and honest to insert a foot in their mouth for lack of tact. Likewise, it is common for a tactician to be complained about for being so calculating as to seem fake.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: FearlessF on August 14, 2019, 09:53:36 AM
well, that and the weirdo factor with Jim
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Anonymous Coward on August 14, 2019, 09:57:54 AM
I think that's all part of the same story. Some of society's weirdest are some of it's most transparent.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: MrNubbz on August 14, 2019, 10:04:04 AM
Lol. That’s more like something Jim would say. Urban handles himself way too professionally, is way too media savvy and has too much class to pop off at the mouth like that. Urban is a politician.

Now maybe he bends the truth a little bit, maybe he lies, maybe he looks the other way on things sometimes- but the guy sure as hell knows how to handle himself with the media/public. Jim? He’s just a weirdo who will say/do anything.
There's no maybe about it,he sure as hell blew the Media day last year.Had he not tripped over his tongue IMO he'd still be HC in C-Bus
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Anonymous Coward on August 14, 2019, 10:05:29 AM
Ambry Thomas has colitis. No word on whether it is ulcerative (chronic) or infectious (acute). The timeline, with first concerns popping up around May/June, may line up better with the chronic condition, unfortunately. He gained then lost 20-25 pounds this offseason, landing him back at his playing weight from last year. 

CB might as well be the only position I'm worried about now. It's surely not RB. And I'm getting more sanguine about DT. But CB has almost no one behind Ambry and Levert. 
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: MaximumSam on August 14, 2019, 11:00:23 AM
Oh Harbaugh has been accused of being a liar, so I don't think Urbs has a monopoly there.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Temp430 on August 14, 2019, 11:07:18 AM
Ambry Thomas has colitis. No word on whether it is ulcerative (chronic) or infectious (acute). The timeline, with first concerns popping up around May/June, may line up better with the chronic condition, unfortunately. He gained then lost 20-25 pounds this offseason, landing him back at his playing weight from last year.

CB might as well be the only position I'm worried about now. It's surely not RB. And I'm getting more sanguine about DT. But CB has almost no one behind Ambry and Levert.

Major bummer about Thomas.  There is lots of young talent on the roster.  Gray, Turner, Green seem the most likely to step up.  Coach Zordich has his work cut out for him.  There will be painful in-game learning to be had whoever it is.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Anonymous Coward on August 14, 2019, 12:14:37 PM
Oh Harbaugh has been accused of being a liar, so I don't think Urbs has a monopoly there.
Everyone on earth has lied before. I think the issue here isn't presence/absence, it's extent, stakes and recidivism.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: MaximumSam on August 14, 2019, 12:56:51 PM
Everyone on earth has lied before. I think the issue here isn't presence/absence, it's extent, stakes and recidivism.
Eh, hard to swing a cat without finding someone that says Harbaugh hasn't been a square dealer.  
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: bayareabadger on August 14, 2019, 01:08:48 PM
Oh Harbaugh has been accused of being a liar, so I don't think Urbs has a monopoly there.
This is my third-favorite OSU-Mich sparring point behind the Dean-Pipkins runoff showdown and which coach had the more terrible situations he turned around in past jobs. 
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: MaximumSam on August 14, 2019, 01:31:05 PM
This is my third-favorite OSU-Mich sparring point behind the Dean-Pipkins runoff showdown and which coach had the more terrible situations he turned around in past jobs.
(https://i.imgur.com/mpqB2HK.png)
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Anonymous Coward on August 14, 2019, 01:34:36 PM
Eh, hard to swing a cat without finding someone that says Harbaugh hasn't been a square dealer. 
I specified my comments are about the extent, stakes, and recidivism of lying. You are still focused on presence/absense.

Also, this conversation started with the premise that tact and candor are inversely proportional trains and that, on the continuum from 

> tact -------- candor < ,

Meyer falls closer to the left than Harbaugh. Do you disagree with that, and why?
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: MaximumSam on August 14, 2019, 01:42:24 PM
Speaking of random dishonesty, this latest Harbaugh dustup is quite entertaining.  It involves the now neverending saga of James Hudson transferring from UM to Cincinnati.  Some weeks ago there was a big discussion about mental health and depression and whatnot, which was interesting if not particularly dramatic.  But now, Fickell and Harbaugh are going at it.

Fickell  (https://971theticket.radio.com/articles/cincinnati-football-coach-luke-fickell-pissed-harbaugh-michigan-handling-transfer)- 

“All (Harbaugh) said to me was, ‘I’m not going to lie. I’m not going to lie. And I don’t know why we’re talking.’ It was really cold. I talked to Nick Saban because we have a transfer from Alabama. I talked to Ryan Day because we have a kid from Ohio State. We have a kid from Michigan, so I wanted to reach out, not to ask about the kid, but acknowledging that this kid has some issues and are you willing to help him? Or what are you willing to do? And it was pretty cold.”

The situation seemed to escalate when Michigan, in a response to Hudson's second waiver request, brought to the NCAA a story of Hudson leaving a liquor store near campus with a "bag of goods," Hudson's mother told The Athletic. She said the story was entirely false. 
Fickell blasted Michigan for coming after a player who chose to transfer. 

“It’s like a junior-high relationship: ‘You broke up with me, so I’m going to tell everybody that you did this, this and this.’ What grown-up does that?” Fickell said. “They responded with a junior-high comeback. I was shocked. Shocked. That if somebody said something about you, that you would then respond back by trying to bash a 19-year-old on things that were hearsay?

“It sounds a little bit like ‘A Few Good Men.’ Yeah, he was on the first flight out the next morning. That’s why I’m pissed and I want to say something. For you to get in a junior-high battle and say things about a kid, whether you believe him or not, you’re taking shots a kid who is struggling. And who am I to say how much? But he’s struggling, and to say that, it hurt the kid. Big time. It was hard. I know a lot of this stuff should be done behind closed doors, and I’m not calling people out. But when they took a shot at the kid, it was really disappointing. Really disappointing.”

Harbaugh (https://www.mlive.com/wolverines/2019/08/jim-harbaugh-luke-fickell-wanted-to-cut-a-deal-on-players-transfer-waiver.html)


Harbaugh also alleges that Fickell — a former assistant coach at Ohio State who enters his third season as the head coach at Cincinnati — “tried to coach” him on how to describe the situation differently, insinuating coercion.

“And I told him, ‘Coach, I believe in telling the truth. Forthright, honest. What I told James, what I tell you, what I tell compliance is going to be the truth,’” Harbaugh said. “I read the article. He asked the question in the article: ‘What’s most important, your personal beliefs or what’s in the best interest of the kid?’ And I can answer that: What’s most important is the truth.

“I’m astounded that he’s gotten to where he’s at by not knowing the answer to that question.”



In any event, the transfer process is so murky and hard to follow that these types of he said/he said dramas are almost guaranteed.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: MaximumSam on August 14, 2019, 01:45:11 PM
I specified my comments are about the extent, stakes, and recidivism of lying. You are still focused on presence/absense.

Also, this conversation started with the premise that tact and candor are inversely proportional trains and that, on the continuum from

> tact -------- candor < ,

Meyer falls closer to the left than Harbaugh. Do you disagree with that, and why?
I've never found Harbaugh to be very candid.  He can be salty, but that's different than candid.  For example, in his latest controversy I very much liked him vocalizing what he thinks the process should be, but found it very offputting that he would pretend Michigan has no say so in his guys transferring.  For lack of a better word, that's a bitch ass thing to say.  Do I give him points for vocaling a policy that would help players and say he's candid, or say he's a liar because he says one thing but his actions say another?  *shrug*
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Anonymous Coward on August 14, 2019, 01:48:30 PM
You are still focused on presence/absence. Focusing on extent/stakes/recidivism would involve comparing Meyer and Harbaugh on this. For example on the severity of their scandals, whether they lied about those, how often those worst scandals appeared, and how far back in their careers those scandals began. Go ahead and focus that if you like.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: MaximumSam on August 14, 2019, 01:51:53 PM
You are still focused on presence/absence. Focusing on extent/stakes/recidivism would involve comparing Meyer and Harbaugh on this. For example on the severity of their scandals, whether they lied about those, how often those worst scandals appeared, and how far back in their careers those scandals began. Go ahead and focus that if you like.
I am. I certainly see very little difference in the scandals, other than how the media reacts to them.  The Urban Meyer "lying scandal" was mostly about his statement that Zach Smith had no felony charges (which was true) without admitting that he was aware of at least some sort of accusations.  That's not really lying about something very important, IMO.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: MichiFan87 on August 14, 2019, 03:08:10 PM
Sorry if this is TMI, but I've had ulcerative colitis since I was in HS, but it has mostly been in remission since I was 20 due to the medications I take. Having a flare is certainly no fun, though. Other people have less success in getting it treated, though, so if that's the case with Thomas, I wouldn't be surprised if he redshirts this year.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Mdot21 on August 14, 2019, 03:29:35 PM
two things...

1) really sucks about Ambry Thomas. Hope he can just recover and get back to being healthy, forget about football. Just a real bummer for a kid with huge talent. Definitely one of the fastest, most explosive athletes in the conference. Just a real shame he's suffering this setback in what was due to be his real breakout year.

2) James Hudson is a baby. He lost out on the starting RT job as a RS Freshman to a 5th year senior and instead of sticking it out he immediately took his ball and went crying back home to Ohio. Who cares what he has to say? I sure as hell don't. You shouldn't get your waiver approved just because. He left Michigan for one reason. He was pissed about his playing time. As a redshirt freshman offensive tackle. A position that takes time to develop into, and he was switching over from defense no less. Seriously, who the hell cares what he says.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Mdot21 on August 14, 2019, 04:12:41 PM
5* true frosh Chris Hinton is in the two deep at DT.

Really sucks that Rashan Gary left early and Aubrey Solomon transferred to Tennessee. Michigan has the worst luck with this crap. I was hoping that Gary would come back after a hugely disappointing junior year where he missed most of the year with injury. Solomon was only a true soph that was just starting to really hit his stride. Played a ton as a true frosh, dealt with some injuries as a true soph and then inexplicably transfers to Tennessee. I tell you what, this DL would look a lot different right now if you had Gary and Solomon in that mix.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Cincydawg on August 14, 2019, 04:29:41 PM
Would you think 9-4 is about as bad a season as it could be (barring some bizarre injury bug)?

Lose every loseable game and the bowl game, maybe see an upset somewhere.  Is this team able to play with Clemson and Bama yet?  I guess that's why they play them, my original quote there.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Mdot21 on August 14, 2019, 04:40:14 PM
Would you think 9-4 is about as bad a season as it could be (barring some bizarre injury bug)?

Lose every loseable game and the bowl game, maybe see an upset somewhere.  Is this team able to play with Clemson and Bama yet?  I guess that's why they play them, my original quote there.
9-4 would be a disaster. Especially if they lost to Ohio State....again. Probably only Georgia is ready to play with Clemson/Bama. Michigan is still not there yet.

They have an excellent OL coach in Ed Warriner. They are returning 4/5 starters on the OL, and they have more depth at OL than they've ever had at any point in Harbaugh's tenure. They go two deep with really solid players at all 5 OL positions for the first time ever.

They have a highly touted, experienced senior QB returning in Shea Patterson. They have probably the best RB recruit they've signed in at least a decade in Zach Chabornnet. If there's one position in the sport you can lean on a freshman at, it's RB. A RB either has it or he don't. Haven't been this excited for a RB coming into Michigan in a very long time. They have WR talent coming out the wazoo.

If they can't put this all together to have an explosive offense and a really good season with the new OC Gattis at the helm, it'll just never happen with Harbaugh.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: FearlessF on August 14, 2019, 04:42:28 PM
year 2 with Gattis could be much better, if he can find the right QB
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Mdot21 on August 14, 2019, 04:44:46 PM
year 2 with Gattis could be much better, if he can find the right QB
Shea should pick up that offense fast. That's the style of offense he came from at Ole Miss and the style of offense he played at all throughout high school. It was this pro-style offense under Harbaugh that was completely foreign to him.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Cincydawg on August 14, 2019, 04:51:30 PM
9-4 would be losses to OSU, ND, and PSU, plus a bowl game against say Florida.  I had that as the worst they could do, barring something weird.

Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Mdot21 on August 14, 2019, 04:54:09 PM
9-4 would be losses to OSU, ND, and PSU, plus a bowl game against say Florida.  I had that as the worst they could do, barring something weird.
Not sure how good PSU will be. That white out at night on the road is a TOUGH game. Harbaugh seems to have Franklin's number however.

Losing to OSU this year, at home, with a senior QB in Patterson and with no Urban Meyer on the other sideline = unacceptable. Harbaugh will start to lose me if that happens.

ND to me, on paper at least right now looks like the toughest game on the schedule. Thankfully they get them at home.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: MrNubbz on August 14, 2019, 04:58:32 PM
Losing to OSU this year, at home, with a senior QB in Patterson and with no Urban Meyer on the other sideline = unacceptable. Harbaugh will start to lose me if that happens.

Oh please oh please oh please,Puhle-e-e-ze
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Cincydawg on August 14, 2019, 06:15:33 PM
I'm not PREDICTING 9-4, just pondering what would be the worst reasonable season that could happen.  Georgia could be 9-4 just as easily, losses to ND, Florida, Auburn, and the bowl game.  Georgia could lose to A&M as well in Athens.  The ND game in Athens might be epic, the crowd will be ready, it's a night game.

Auburn is at Auburn, a series where curiously the visiting team seems to win more often than not.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Anonymous Coward on August 14, 2019, 09:03:49 PM
5* true frosh Chris Hinton is in the two deep at DT.

Really sucks that Rashan Gary left early and Aubrey Solomon transferred to Tennessee. Michigan has the worst luck with this crap. I was hoping that Gary would come back after a hugely disappointing junior year where he missed most of the year with injury. Solomon was only a true soph that was just starting to really hit his stride. Played a ton as a true frosh, dealt with some injuries as a true soph and then inexplicably transfers to Tennessee. I tell you what, this DL would look a lot different right now if you had Gary and Solomon in that mix.
I don't think [EDIT] Solomon would have made much of a difference (he barely played last year and has been veiledly accused of having an allergy to hard work). I certainly wouldn't guarantee a starting spot for him. He'd improve the depth, admittedly. Then for Gary, would *love* to have him. But DE is not a weakness for this team. It's not even on the radar.

CB is the far away leading concern, then DT. DE, linebackers and safeties look like strengths.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Anonymous Coward on August 14, 2019, 09:25:40 PM
9-4 would be losses to OSU, ND, and PSU, plus a bowl game against say Florida.  I had that as the worst they could do, barring something weird.
I'd say a home loss to MSU ranks as more likely than @PSU. Either would portend a disappointing year. 
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: MrNubbz on August 14, 2019, 09:31:08 PM
I don't think Hudson would have made much of a difference (he barely played last year and has been veiledly accused of having an allergy to hard work).
So both you and Harbaugh thinks the kid wasn't having emotional problems.Great,good to hear,I don't know that he was and neither do you.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Anonymous Coward on August 14, 2019, 09:31:32 PM
Losing to OSU this year, at home, with a senior QB in Patterson and with no Urban Meyer on the other sideline = unacceptable. Harbaugh will start to lose me if that happens.
Even if Ryan Day is a lesser coach than Meyer (feels likely) and if OSU will eventually equilibrate to a new lower level as he takes over (if this first premise is true, this would also seem likely), then this could be the most difficult year to beat Ryan Day. I see no choice but to give Harbaugh a pass if he loses this game. I'd say Harbaugh only needs to get 1 of the next 3 and maybe 2 of the next 5. 

"Expectations" and "reasonable expectations" are rarely the same thing, and "reasonable expectations" are the ones that matter most for Harbaugh at Michigan. If he keeps averaging 10-win seasons he's unfireable. That would probably be different if Harbaugh had taken over directly after Lloyd retired. That the expectations would be higher. But Harbaugh didn't follow Lloyd. He followed Rodriguez and Hoke. Let's not underestimate how much it changed that the program was that recently humbled *that* much.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Anonymous Coward on August 14, 2019, 09:32:13 PM
So both you and Harbaugh thinks the kid wasn't having emotional problems.Great,good to hear,I don't know that he was and neither do you.
I'll go back and edit mine. I typed Hudson. I meant Aubrey Solomon. The post was about Solomon and how losing him as a DT was perhaps not that big of a deal.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Honestbuckeye on August 15, 2019, 07:12:24 AM
If you just go by QB experience and skill level, you can often get pretty close on best guessing how things shake out.

I fully expect UM to win the east, and would not be surprised to see them run the table. Because of the lack of experience and exposure to the playbook ( unlike Haskins who had a couple years with it) I see a bumpy ride for Ohio State- some good performances and a few stinkers. But they should be a tough out, they will be feisty.  I think MSU and PSU will also be feisty- tough outs for anyone.

It is the west that should be fascinating. You have to respect the Badgers just based on how they have been consistently good- especially if they get solid QB play.   But I feel like Nebraska is going to be really good with that QB and Frost in year 2, and Purdue returns a lot on defense to match their offensive guru of a coach.  And then , in my eyes, both Northwestern and Iowa have proven they can play with anyone.

There will be a lot more games this year that will capture my fascination.  Should be fun.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Cincydawg on August 15, 2019, 07:15:51 AM
I agree with the above and have Nebraska and Michigan in the CG, FWIW (not much).

First year coaches often can have some teething issues.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Temp430 on August 15, 2019, 08:16:19 AM
Anyone else worried about the game with Army?  You should be.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: MrNubbz on August 15, 2019, 10:04:40 AM
There will be a lot more games this year that will capture my fascination.  Should be fun.
I agree,Certainly seems to be a lot of uncertainty which should be a rather exciting season from a fans standpoint
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: FearlessF on August 15, 2019, 10:15:46 AM
 Georgia could be 9-4 just as easily, losses to ND, Florida, Auburn, and the bowl game.  Georgia could lose to A&M as well in Athens.  The ND game in Athens might be epic, the crowd will be ready, it's a night game.

Auburn is at Auburn, a series where curiously the visiting team seems to win more often than not.
no Bama for the Dawgs this season?

Here's hoping the Domers lose to Georgia and Michigan
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Anonymous Coward on August 15, 2019, 10:49:29 AM
Anyone else worried about the game with Army?  You should be.
They definitely have my attention. Especially against a young defense. Oklahoma's close call versus Army last year seemed to be primarily due to a rough OU defense.

However, I should credit Don Brown. He came to Michigan with a reputation for having a knack with the service academy games. The Air Force team he bottled up (~200 total yards) got half of the yards it was getting in other games. And that was versus a 2017 Michigan defense that was also green -- having just sent eleven guys to the NFL (eight were drafted).

Meanwhile, I do wish Michigan would stop scheduling these teams. It's the proverbial "there's nothing to gain and everything to lose" match up.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Cincydawg on August 15, 2019, 10:50:04 AM
If UGA loses to Auburn (or A&M) and Florida, they probably don't make the CG.  

I usually muse about "how bad it COULD be".  It rarely is of course, but it parallels with "how good could it be?".

I don't mean 15-0 or 0-12, I mean realistically of course.  Michigan has a decent shot at 12-0 regular season, but most teams lose somewhere along the way.  Last year was unusual.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Anonymous Coward on August 15, 2019, 01:20:56 PM
Stueber, starting candidate at RT, is now out with an unspecified knee injury. I hope it isn't prolonged but it could be. Get well soon to that guy.

We think Mayfield was leading the competition for the only OL spot without a returning starter. Mayfield (RS-Fr) and Stueber (RS-So) were said to have exited spring and entered fall "tied." The truth is fans just don't know the order for sure. Consequences? Less for the starting line; more for the depth. This may mean that Ryan Hayes has to grow up fast. He's a prototypical LT, but he may be needed on either side for depth.

Crack at the depth chart:

LT -- Runyan then Hayes
LG -- Bredeson then Filiaga
C -- Ruiz then  Spanellis
RG -- Onwenu then Honigford
RT -- Mayfield/Stueber then ???
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Mdot21 on August 15, 2019, 02:12:31 PM
Anyone else worried about the game with Army?  You should be.
I don't know. These are the sort of offenses that Don Brown's heavy blitzing and pretty much 100% man to man across the board seem to just shut down and beat the hell out of. Don Brown's defenses look amazing for like 9 or 10 games during a season. But then there is always 1 or 2 games a year where his defenses just get absolutely shredded. PSU in 2017 and OSU in 2018 come to mind immediately. In both those games the offenses exposed that man to man across the board scheme badly. Barkley and Geisicki abused Michigan's LB's in man coverage and DaeSean Hamilton absued Michigan's safeties in the slot. Saquon Barkley vs Mike McCray 1 on 1 in man coverage...LMAO. Poor bastard never stood a chance vs Barkley. OSU ran a lot of mesh and crossing routes to get those speedy WR's free. Got away with a few pick plays, but Brandon Watson and the safeties were obliterated trying to keep up man to man against those OSU WR's.

So long story short, not really worried about these style of offenses. Don Brown's scheme seems designed to completely shut down and stifle like 90% of the offenses his teams will face. It's those rare times he's facing teams with an elite pass catching RB or TE (see Penn State 2017) or facing a team with an elite QB and elite WR's (see OSU) where his scheme breaks down and gets absolutely shredded. His scheme works great 90-95% of the time because 90-95% of the time the teams he's facing don't have the QB/RB/TE/WR's to really expose it.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Anonymous Coward on August 16, 2019, 11:30:51 AM
CB is the far away leading concern, then DT.
Those are still the top two concerns, and I'm struggling to think of which other concerns are in view of these. Unfortunately, Ambry Thomas is now out with colitis and Dwumfour is still meaningfully less than 100% (foot?) ... so that's crummy.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Mdot21 on August 16, 2019, 11:39:56 AM
Those are still the top two concerns, and I'm struggling to think of which other concerns are in view of these. Unfortunately, Ambry Thomas is now out with colitis and Dwumfour is still meaningfully less than 100% (foot?) ... so that's crummy.
Ambry should be back. It's just a matter of when. Really sucks, because he's brimming with talent and this looked like it might be his breakout year. He's probably the fastest, most athletic CB that Michigan has had under Harbaugh yet. Jourdan Lewis was an excellent CB and so is LaVert Hill, but Ambry is taller and faster than those guys. The only guy in the same ballpark is David Long, and Ambry is about an inch taller and has another gear than Long. Long wasn't slow by any means, Ambry is just really fast.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Anonymous Coward on August 16, 2019, 02:41:11 PM
Colitis flares can spring back anytime and without warning. They also have been linked to stress, which a CFB season ... has.

Obviously no one knows his situation better than his doctors and he. But it's easy to underestimate this condition, and ~20 pound weight loss on flare number one isn't a small thing.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Honestbuckeye on August 16, 2019, 05:23:29 PM
Would like to see the doctors get that under control, if possible. UC is no joke.
Ambry Thomas has shown flashes of being a special player.  
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Anonymous Coward on August 17, 2019, 12:17:05 AM
https://mobile.twitter.com/UMichFootball/status/1162172513490784257?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1162172513490784257&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fmgoblog.com%2Fmgoboard%2Fshort-podcast-clip-jon-jansen-interviewing-ed-warinner-about-stueber-and-other-things-o
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Anonymous Coward on August 17, 2019, 11:44:45 AM
Apparently Luke Fickell asked Harbaugh to lie to the NCAA about Hudson leaving because he was "forced" to play OL. I don't know which part of Fickell's thought process was more broken -- (a) inclination to get a coach you don't like to lie for you or, even if it worked, that (b) the NCAA would believe in the structure of this lie: 

"Hudson left A2 because he was forced to play OL and transferred to Cincinnati ... where he is excited to play OL"
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: MaximumSam on August 17, 2019, 11:55:45 AM
It sounds like his biggest mistake was thinking Michigan cared about helping Hudson get eligible.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Anonymous Coward on August 17, 2019, 12:14:06 PM
Harbaugh wants Hudson to be eligible. He's lobbying hard for a policy for literally every transfer to be eligible. Just don't expect him to lie to get Hudson eligible. Also don't expect Harbaugh to lie to help a coach who's done the opposite of build good will with him.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Honestbuckeye on August 17, 2019, 02:33:06 PM
Apparently Luke Fickell asked Harbaugh to lie to the NCAA about Hudson leaving because he was "forced" to play OL. I don't know which part of Fickell's thought process was more broken -- (a) inclination to get a coach you don't like to lie for you or, even if it worked, that (b) the NCAA would believe in the structure of this lie:

"Hudson left A2 because he was forced to play OL and transferred to Cincinnati ... where he is excited to play OL"
At least- that’s the story on Michigan fan boards/ if you are to believe them.
Then you also have to believe that Day at OSU and Saban at Bama lied to get their transferring  players eligible at UC.

Methinks it is much more nuanced- but knowing Fickell I am highly confident he asked nobody to lie 
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: MrNubbz on August 17, 2019, 02:40:51 PM
Harbaugh flat out lied to that recruit out of Chicago 3 years back.Holding a spot on the roster....until he didn't.Even the head coach and the kids mom blamed jim.There is a lot of he said/she said in this drama and neither you or I know who said what,just what sources with interests say.Quite frankly  it is a bad look to say you're depressed,changing schools to play doesn't change that.But if you agree to let him go let him go....or don't
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Anonymous Coward on August 17, 2019, 04:13:23 PM
At least- that’s the story on Michigan fan boards/ if you are to believe them.
Then you also have to believe that Day at OSU and Saban at Bama lied to get their transferring  players eligible at UC.

Methinks it is much more nuanced- but knowing Fickell I am highly confident he asked nobody to lie 

You're absolutely right. Since you and I are neither named Harbaugh, nor Fickell, we can't be *certain* of the truth. We can only collect signals. On this there are two:

(1) Harbaugh said this:

(2) and then Fickell was asked about it in an interview and didn't deny it.

Maybe you think that's because Fickell has a zen-like "rise above it" personality. And maybe that's not what you think. But it is true that we just don't know for sure.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: MrNubbz on August 17, 2019, 04:27:35 PM
Here's what Fickell said the day after Harbaugh allegations

"... Just like I called coach Day at Ohio State and Coach Saban at Alabama. I did nothing different than what I did with those guys and the results are different."

None of the local sources are repeating Fickell ever even mentioning that.Stadium and Main Hot takes aren't all that

This from the Cincinnati Enquirer
Harbaugh has said in the past he believes transfers should be allowed to leave a school with instant eligibility once, no matter the circumstances. He repeated that on Tuesday. But he expressed doubt last month (https://www.cincinnati.com/story/sports/college/university-of-cincinnati/2019/07/19/james-hudson-jim-harbaugh-depression-remarks-cant-serious/1783523001/) when asked during a radio interview with ESPNU whether college athletes should be allowed to gain immediate eligibility under the current rules in place due to mental-health or depression-related conditions.

What did Habaugh say about the twisted web we weave or sumsuch
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Anonymous Coward on August 17, 2019, 04:29:00 PM
That isn't the same thing as Fickell denying that he asked Harbaugh to doctor his story to the NCAA.

We're still in the same place we were at the end of my post. Either Fickell didn't deny it because he can't, or he could have denied it but didn't because he's a zen dude who's above that drama/noise.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Anonymous Coward on August 17, 2019, 04:41:46 PM
Harbaugh has said in the past he believes transfers should be allowed to leave a school with instant eligibility once, no matter the circumstances. He repeated that on Tuesday. But he expressed doubt last month (https://www.cincinnati.com/story/sports/college/university-of-cincinnati/2019/07/19/james-hudson-jim-harbaugh-depression-remarks-cant-serious/1783523001/) when asked during a radio interview with ESPNU whether college athletes should be allowed to gain immediate eligibility under the current rules in place due to mental-health or depression-related conditions.

What did Habaugh say about the twisted web we weave or sumsuch
This is a weird part of your post. You seem to imply there's an inconsistency here. I don't think there is. Harbaugh is wanting a future world (with a rule change to get us there!) where every player gets one freebie (instant eligibility) transfer. And he's lobbying for that rule change. Until it happens, he's saying he'd prefer us to be rigid about the rules we have.

For context, he benefited from the Shea Patterson ruling and enjoyed that but also thinks that means the overall process is unfair and too subjective.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: MrNubbz on August 17, 2019, 04:43:55 PM
Again according to you,you're throwing shit against the wall hoping it sticks.AGAIN Harbaugh has said in the past he believes transfers should be allowed to leave a school with instant eligibility once, no matter the circumstances.Well he obviously doesn't,you are are flat out repeating Harbaugh's twisted version..Weird part of my post none of the writers/reporters are repeating your bullshit
.Fickell never coached Harbaugh to say shit.I already gave you his response is that to complex to decipher
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Anonymous Coward on August 17, 2019, 04:54:06 PM
Yes. He wants a new rule where everyone is eligible no matter the circumstances. But we don't have that rule yet, so he and everyone else is stuck with the rules we have.

Meanwhile, Fickell still hasn't denied Harbaugh's claim. Maybe he'll change his mind and deny it soon.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: MrNubbz on August 17, 2019, 05:08:23 PM
Yes. He wants a new rule where everyone is eligible no matter the circumstances. But we don't have that rule yet, so he and everyone else is stuck with the rules we have.

Meanwhile, Fickell still hasn't denied Harbaugh's claim. Maybe he'll change his mind and deny it soon.
Man are you thick there is nothing to confirm or deny.Harbaugh - the same asshole that started the shitstorm at media days - you remember that right?While Harbaugh has said he wasn’t talking about Hudson specifically, it was easy for some to connect the dots because Hudson had an appeal to play right away at Cincinnati denied then later said he left the Michigan football program because of depression.,so the kid,his mother and Fickell are all full of crap.Answer my inquiry.AGAIN(3rd time) Harbaugh has said in the past he believes transfers should be allowed to leave a school with instant eligibility once, no matter the circumstances._Obviously that was bullshit or this conversation doesn't takes place
Here you go -  https//localfootballnews.com/2019/08/14/luke-fickell-attacks-jim-harbaugh-about-transfers/
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Anonymous Coward on August 17, 2019, 05:10:09 PM
You don't need to be so angry about disagreeing. Clearly we haven't persuaded one another despite trying our darnedest. Es ok.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Honestbuckeye on August 17, 2019, 05:16:26 PM
Fickell's account of the conversation differed. 
"I’ve got notes if you want them," he said. "Nothing more than asking, 'hey, what’s your stance on James? Are you going to help the kid?'
"It wasn’t like pleasant or anything. It was kind of cold. It was short. It wasn’t a long conversation. It wasn’t hard to figure out what their stance was. They supposedly weren’t going to hold (Hudson's waiver) up but they weren’t going to help him." 
The NCAA denied a waiver for Hudson, a 6-foot-5, 300-pound offensive lineman and former four-star recruit from Toledo Central Catholic, to play this season in May. Hudson practiced with the Bearcats in December leading up to the Military Bowl. He played three games for Michigan in 2018.
Hudson said via Twitter in May that he left Michigan for mental health reasons. 
 "The NCAA has denied my waiver specifically because I never spoke up about my mental struggles to the administration at the University of Michigan," Hudson wrote. 
“Like many football players I was afraid to speak up about my depression not wanting to look weak. Now the NCAA is telling me that my courage to step forward and speak about my issues was done too late and subjectively my 'Circumstances do not warrant relief.'" 
Fickell said Smith's waiver included mental health, too. 
"We saw how it works with coach Day at Ohio State and how they helped Blue Smith out, to be honest with you," Fickell said. "So, whether people know a lot about that, they wanted to help the kid. They didn’t want to lose him, but they wanted to help him. They did stuff to help make him eligible here and gave him an opportunity to be eligible." 
Harbaugh has said in the past he believes transfers should be allowed to leave a school with instant eligibility once, no matter the circumstances. He repeated that on Tuesday. But he expressed doubt last month when asked during a radio interview with ESPNU whether college athletes should be allowed to gain immediate eligibility under the current rules in place due to mental-health or depression-related conditions.
"And the other piece that bothers me about it is the youngster that says, 'This is a mental health issue. I'm suffering from depression,'" Harbaugh said. "Or that's a reason to get eligible. And once that's known: 'Hey, say this or say that' to get eligible. The problem I see in that is you're going to have guys that are, 'Okay, yeah, I'm depressed.'
"Say what they've got to say. But down the road, I don't see that helping them if it's not a legitimate thing. But nobody would know. But what are you going to say? Ten years down the road – 'I just had to say what I had to say?' And I think you're putting them in a position that's unfair, not right. And, as you said, you're saying it just to say it. And that's not truthful. That's not necessarily truthful. It's not something we should be promoting at the college level. Telling the truth matters. Especially at a college. You can't have experiments that aren't truthful. You can't lie about equations – shouldn't be lying in football. That's a message that we should be teaching."
Hudson's final appeal to play this season was denied last month. Fickell said he's met with Hudson individually on multiple occasions to help keep Hudson's mindset in a positive frame. 
"It’s unfortunate that (the NCAA) can’t give, not me, I’m a grown man, but they can’t give a 20-year-old an explanation exactly why," Fickell said. "But it’s over now. We’ve got to move forward." “



So, as you can see, Fickell DID deny it.  So, your assessment the he “asked him to lie” is quite a stretch. 

As I said, it is nuanced,  if you take them both at their word, it seems Fickell thought they would be more supportive like Saban and Day. Harbaugh though he was asking him to say something that was not true.   And yes, for the record, Fickell is widely known as a person of extremely high integrity.  He has been criticized before for being a shitty coach ( fair or not), but a damn good man. 
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: MrNubbz on August 17, 2019, 05:26:44 PM
You don't need to be so angry about disagreeing. Clearly we haven't persuaded one another despite trying our darnedest. Es ok.
Not angry strongly pointing out the script is getting flipped and some have been less than candid - go have an IPA

(https://media3.giphy.com/media/tSVOZpFpohGUM/source.gif)
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Anonymous Coward on August 17, 2019, 06:22:52 PM
Not angry

Typing "didn't say shit" in one post and calling me thick in another is a sign the conversation has lost its composure. At least it's a sign we should discuss something else. Don't worry. Inevitably this will come up later and we'll both say the same things all over again. If we stop with a handshake now it's more friendly and efficient.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on August 17, 2019, 06:31:02 PM
I don't have a problem with Hairball's response. He didn't block the kid, but he isn't going to sit there and play grab ass with the NCAA in order to make sure that he gets to play right away. 

Day and Saban may well have gone above and beyond the call of duty in order to help their own UC transfers gain immediate eligibility, and that is admirable if true. But it is certainly not mandatory. 


That said it is fun to sit on the sidelines and watch the feud play out, as an impartial observer. 
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Anonymous Coward on August 17, 2019, 06:31:51 PM
Fickell's account of the conversation differed.

(...)

"I’ve got notes if you want them," he said.

(...)

So, as you can see, Fickell DID deny it.  So, your assessment the he “asked him to lie” is quite a stretch.

I hadn't seen this quote. You're right, he is addressing it, but -- while I don't expect you to agree with me -- my interpretation is that what he's saying is consistent with what Harbaugh said.
Harbaugh is basically complaining that another coach called him and said 


And in that quote Fickell is saying literally that: 

Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: MrNubbz on August 17, 2019, 06:52:30 PM
Typing "didn't say shit" in one post and calling me thick in another is a sign the conversation has lost its composure. At least it's a sign we should discuss something else. Don't worry. Inevitably this will come up later and we'll both say the same things all over again. If we stop with a handshake now it's more friendly and efficient.
OK my bad how about stubbornly inaccurate
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Honestbuckeye on August 17, 2019, 06:56:58 PM
I hadn't seen this quote. You're right, he is addressing it, but -- while I don't expect you to agree with me -- my interpretation is that what he's saying is consistent with what Harbaugh said.
Harbaugh is basically complaining that another coach called him and said

  • "hey you know that thing you're filling out, here, take my notes on how to do it."

And in that quote Fickell is saying literally that:

  • "I've got notes if you want them."

I think the “ I have notes if you want them”was for when he was asked about Harbaugh’ s version of the conversation.  
Either way, not a big deal.  
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Mdot21 on August 17, 2019, 09:16:07 PM
being pissed off about being moved to offense from defense and then being more pissed off about not winning the starting RT job as a REDSHIRT FRESHMAN does not = mental health issues. It does = an immature little kid taking his ball and going home crying.

James Hudson is full of shit. And so is Luke Fickell. Hudson was a REDSHIRT FRESHMAN and he didn't beat out a FIFTH YEAR SENIOR tackle in JBB and he was pissed off about it. Simple as that. The minute JBB got hurt and Hudson didn't get the nod to be the starter in place of JBB he bolted. Didn't even try to compete.

That's fine. That's his perogative. But don't try sell me a line of bullshit about it being for mental health issues. Not buying it. He wanted to play defensive line, most colleges recruited him as an OL. Why? Because he was a far superior OL prospect than he was DL prospect. Harbaugh sold him on giving him a shot at DL. He was moved to OL, and he was a little ticked about it. He lost the starting RT job to JBB and he was a little ticked about that too. He got some reps as the #2 RT but as soon as JBB got hurt and a starting position was open for awhile and he didn't get it, the kid got super pissed and left.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Cincydawg on August 18, 2019, 06:07:04 AM
Folks chat about "trap games", but sometimes the upset is not one of those, perhaps often that is the case.  A team survives the trap game and then loses unexpectedly to someone else, perhaps at home.  Is Michigan solid enough to "bulldoze" lesser teams and not see a 10+ point dog beat them?

As noted, Army is a watch out, they could be a 12 point dog easily.  Iowa at home?  Mebbe.  At Maryland?  They nearly beat OSU last season.  At Indiana?  Nah.

Obviously, they need to sweep those lesser teams, but it doesn't always happen.  We fans tend to count them up as Ws preseason, and they usually will be.

All this is the case for every team of course.  
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: MaximumSam on August 18, 2019, 08:09:25 AM
It's not rocket science, Fickell (and the kid and his mom) said Michigan wasn't going to help and Harbaugh confirmed it. This nonsense about asking him to lie is nonsense and mostly besides the point.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Mdot21 on August 18, 2019, 09:11:37 AM
It's not rocket science, Fickell (and the kid and his mom) said Michigan wasn't going to help and Harbaugh confirmed it. This nonsense about asking him to lie is nonsense and mostly besides the point.
Michigan doesn't need to help. Not their problem. There is only a problem when a school tries to get in the way and try to block a transfer- like Alabama did to that kid who transferred to Georgia.

Harbaugh/Michigan gave him his release, that's all they had to do. Everyone needs to stop with the nonsense.

James Hudson left because he was salty about being moved to OL, salty about not winning the RT job as a REDSHIRT FRESHMAN, and the straw that broke the camels back was when starting RT JBB went down and Andrew Steuber got the starting nod over Hudson. Hudson was already pissed off and felt like he should be starting over JBB, and when Steuber got the nod instead of Hudson - he transferred like 2 days later.

Let's just call it what it is. He took his ball and went running home crying like a child. Literally.

And Tom Mars the NCAA transfer expert who has handled every damn high profile transfer case came out and said yesterday that there is absolutely nothing that Jim Harbaugh could've done to influence the NCAA's decision. The NCAA is going to do what it wants. It is the least consistent orginization ever. Harbaugh nor any coach has influence over that shitshow of an orginization called the NCAA. 

James Hudson's real problem for getting his waiver denied is he transferred to a nothing program. Had he transferred to Notre Dame or USC or Ohio State or Miami or Alabama- my guess is that waiver probably somehow finds a way to get approved by the NCAA. NCAA gives a slap on the wrist to helmet schools and they come down hard on the small programs.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: MrNubbz on August 18, 2019, 10:32:28 AM
You"re right but Harbaugh doesn't need to accuse someone else of being slippery when they weren't.I don't necessarily agree with the immediate transfer thing.These kids have enough time to figure out where the want to go.There should be like a 4-5-6 game penatly.The kid transferring to play football some where else isn't going to ease his depression.Unless the circumstances are unbearable.But Harbaugh was on record as saying he's for immediate transfers,so take the high road and sign his release or in JH's case don't.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Mdot21 on August 18, 2019, 02:03:11 PM
You"re right but Harbaugh doesn't need to accuse someone else of being slippery when they weren't.I don't necessarily agree with the immediate transfer thing.These kids have enough time to figure out where the want to go.There should be like a 4-5-6 game penatly.The kid transferring to play football some where else isn't going to ease his depression.Unless the circumstances are unbearable.But Harbaugh was on record as saying he's for immediate transfers,so take the high road and sign his release or in JH's case don't.
Michigan signed his release. Harbaugh didn't say anything. He repsonded to something Fickell said. We wouldn't even be talking about any of this if Fickell didn't open his fat mouth. Better idea: the coach at Cincinnati should shut up and focus on coaching his team.

James Hudson is not a victim. He's an entitled brat like most American teeangers/young adults are these days. He was pissed off that he didn't get what he wanted, when he wanted it, so he left. More power to him. But the rules are the rules, and when you choose to transfer you have to sit out a year. You can apply for a waiver to be eligible to play right away, but it's not a slam dunk. It's 50-50 at best. He knew all that going in. He's the one who decided to transfer.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: MrNubbz on August 18, 2019, 02:37:09 PM
JH shot his mouth off at media days citing transfer portals and depression since that could only be referring to one individual even John U.Bacon could figure it out.Nice professional job of providing some privacy on personal matters.Again I'm repeating Harbaugh was on record as saying he's for immediate transfers,so take the high road and sign his release or in JH's case don't.Why so late?Why not wave the criteria,Hudson evidently didn't want to air his private business.If he is troubled I don't blame him.Hudson's mother works in the psychiatric field I thought I had read.Again I don't agree with transferring w/o some serious bench time.He may be entitled or depressed ,all Fickell said was the process went smooth with Saban/Day that's pointing out the truth not stirring up the pot
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Honestbuckeye on August 18, 2019, 04:16:39 PM
Your probably right Mdot.  I will take your word for it, as I have no knowledge ( nor do I care to) of how the Hudson situation played out.

I was under the impression that Fickell was responding to Harbaugh, but that could be wrong too.

But this topic started with AC saying Fickell asked Harbaugh to lie.  Not buying that at all.  Perhaps Fickell IS clueless about how the transfer process works, I don’t know. But I have an extremely high level of confidence that he was not asked to lie, and frankly I don’t know why that was posted here.  AC tends to see his coach as some kind of hero, a view not shared by too many I would wager, outside the UM fan base.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Anonymous Coward on August 18, 2019, 04:43:38 PM
Man we need the season to get here. This "story" has less than an atom of deserved controversy.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Anonymous Coward on August 18, 2019, 04:44:32 PM
In the spirit of football starting:

We give him such a hard time but it's probably not deserved:

https://mobile.twitter.com/PFF_College/status/1161928770766458885
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Anonymous Coward on August 18, 2019, 04:46:51 PM
Also fitting: (https://mgoblog.com/sites/default/files/users/user203487/EBj5DEJXYAAJ_bG.jpg)
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Anonymous Coward on August 18, 2019, 04:48:22 PM
Michigan has several kinds of good receivers. Having one that excels in traffic can be of use:

(https://mgoblog.com/sites/default/files/users/user203487/Firefox_Screenshot_2019-08-18T17-34-12.906Z.png)
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Honestbuckeye on August 18, 2019, 06:12:42 PM
Now we’re talkin!

I am excited to see this group.  Urban had it right: UM has at least 3 NFL WRs.   And trying to cover all three will be ridiculously hard.  I look forward to seeing this group, save that one Saturday when they will make me fake pulling my hair out ( don’t have all that much left lol)
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Anonymous Coward on August 18, 2019, 07:15:22 PM
The top 3 WRs at Michigan and the top 3 at OSU this year are as good as all the other teams in the conference (combined) have assembled in the last few years (combined). 

[to preempt blowback, let me emphasize that I'm not claiming the other schools haven't had high level WRs, just that the concentration of them at M and OSU right now is rare]
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: MrNubbz on August 18, 2019, 08:51:36 PM
The thing is Black is the one who blasts out of the gate,if he doesn't get hurt Patterson will have absolutely no excuses.I could throw lawn jarts to these guys and they'd come down with it
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Anonymous Coward on August 18, 2019, 08:58:59 PM
I thought Patterson was great last year, and that was not only in a new offense but also the only "wrong fit" offense he's ever been in. Now he's back in the same RPO-heavy, no huddle offense he's been playing since high school (again, sans 2018 at Michigan). You're right. He should do well by national rank. I think he wil.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Anonymous Coward on August 18, 2019, 09:05:29 PM
(...) however if he does have that kind of year, he'll have a lot more to thank than just the WR room, and maybe Ed Warriner is atop that list.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Mdot21 on August 18, 2019, 10:54:03 PM
The thing is Black is the one who blasts out of the gate,if he doesn't get hurt Patterson will have absolutely no excuses.I could throw lawn jarts to these guys and they'd come down with it
this is what has me salivating at the mouth. As good as DPJ and Nico looked last year, Tarik Black is a flat out better receiver than both of those guys. He's had some really crappy luck with injuries. If he can just stay healthy- look out.

Nico and DPJ both looked great as true sophs last year playing in a very restrictive offense for WR's and with a new QB that was learning a new offensive system on the fly that was completely foreign to him. Shea Patterson has been playing in the shotgun and running spread since he was in 7th grade. He comes to Michigan and tries to learn a completely different offense and way of playing QB in an off-season. He had struggles at times, but he had flashes of that 5 STARZ talent at times at well.

Goodbye Pep Hamilton. Enter: JOSH GATTIS. The style of offense that Gattis is trying to implement is tailor made for Shea Patterson's skill set. The change SHOULD help Patterson flourish and that offense and those WR's to really take off. I think it'll really all come down to health and to how Harbaugh handles this transition. He needs to be patient with it and just back off and give up the keys to the Ferrari to Gattis. That's the biggest question mark for me. I just don't know if Harbaugh's ego will let him really give up total control. I'm scared to death that there is going to be times in tight moments in big games where Harbaugh just goes full Harbaugh and turns into the autistic weirdo we all know he is and interjects and starts overruling Gattis and calling plays that are just dumb as shit and make no sense. I am terrified of that actually.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Anonymous Coward on August 19, 2019, 01:58:59 AM
I don't understand that fear. If the reports are correct that the offense is already transformed -- no longer beholden to full clock huddling, capable of fast snaps, erasure of the fullback, emphasized RPO game, and at least the mere attempt to have pass and rush plays be integrated to the normal extent that they look like one another in terms of alignment presnap ... if all of that's true, then we already have what we want.

That'll mean we've spent an entire offseason building a *structurally* different offense. It's not really possible (let alone smart) for an entire structure to be undone in the confines of a single game ... or even during the season. Harbaugh gave up the structure. It'd already be over.

You should stop thinking that Harbaugh'd even *consider* taking it back midseason. What examples are there of a coach ever doing something similar?

Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Anonymous Coward on August 19, 2019, 02:05:54 AM
Play calls are something entirely different. They're also a smaller deal than "the whole offense's structure."

So if we ever hear that Gattis is accepting play call inputs from others including Harbaugh, my response will be "oh that sounds normal - good."

Collaboration is good. And it's wrong to think Harbaugh wouldn't have loads of objectively helpful ideas for any OC. That doesn't even have to be Harbaugh braggy. Many HCs out there, perhaps a majority, have brilliant things to tell their OC.

By hoping Harbaugh goes mute on playcalls, I guess I'd say you're being rigid and setting yourself up for disappointment ... even if the offense is fully new and amazing. In 2019, it's inevitable that there will be moments where some sort of Harbaughian play is better than what Gattis had considered.

And he can do that without taking one inch of the offense back from Gattis.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Temp430 on August 19, 2019, 08:18:16 AM
What?  I thought the plan was to clone Harbaugh's brain and transplant it into Gattis' skull??
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: MrNubbz on August 19, 2019, 09:22:53 AM
The conference or the world isn't really ready for that
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: MrNubbz on August 19, 2019, 09:28:39 AM
this is what has me salivating at the mouth. As good as DPJ and Nico looked last year, Tarik Black is a flat out better receiver than both of those guys. He's had some really crappy luck with injuries. If he can just stay healthy- look out.

Nico and DPJ both looked great as true sophs last year playing in a very restrictive offense for WR's and with a new QB that was learning a new offensive system on the fly that was completely foreign to him.
Collins from what I watched of him seemed to develop as the season progressed not only his ability to get open but to hang on to the ball.However if Black stays healthy that could spell problems,but I'm wrong quite frequently so there's that
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: CWSooner on August 19, 2019, 08:39:43 PM
I don't understand that fear. If the reports are correct that the offense is already transformed -- no longer beholden to full clock huddling, capable of fast snaps, erasure of the fullback, emphasized RPO game, and at least the mere attempt to have pass and rush plays be integrated to the normal extent that they look like one another in terms of alignment presnap ... if all of that's true, then we already have what we want.

That'll mean we've spent an entire offseason building a *structurally* different offense. It's not really possible (let alone smart) for an entire structure to be undone in the confines of a single game ... or even during the season. Harbaugh gave up the structure. It'd already be over.

You should stop thinking that Harbaugh'd even *consider* taking it back midseason. What examples are there of a coach ever doing something similar?
You should take a look at the head-coaching career of one Mr. John Blake, OU HFC from 1996 through 1998.  He sometimes changed offenses in mid-game.
He's not in Jim Harbaugh's league.  Hell, he's not in Adam Sandler's league.  But he was a head coach at what was even then a major college program.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Anonymous Coward on August 19, 2019, 09:06:25 PM
You should take a look at the head-coaching career of one Mr. John Blake, OU HFC from 1996 through 1998.  He sometimes changed offenses in mid-game.
He's not in Jim Harbaugh's league.  Hell, he's not in Adam Sandler's league.  But he was a head coach at what was even then a major college program.
Whoa. He switched midgame to a system(s) his players had never practiced?
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: CWSooner on August 19, 2019, 09:45:59 PM
Whoa. He switched midgame to a system(s) his players had never practiced?
I think it was his second season (of three dreadful ones).  He had decided during the off-season to go back to the wishbone.  First game, they ran a series or two with it, he was not satisfied with the results, so they went back to what they had been using before.  Pro-set, power-I, whatever it was.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Anonymous Coward on August 19, 2019, 09:47:56 PM
Well crap, you've fully succeeded in feeding Mdot's concerns. 😉
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: CWSooner on August 19, 2019, 10:02:00 PM
At least he won't be overconfident.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Anonymous Coward on August 19, 2019, 10:22:34 PM
I'm all about the full range of realistic expectations. With my conversation with MDot, I just don't think it's feasible that if Harbaugh really did give over full control of the offense (seems likely but we can't know for 2 weeks), and if it is as structurally new as it sounds (ditto), that Harbaugh would demand them to switch back in the middle of a game. On the other hand, I do expect Harbaugh to always be a part of the play and game situation conversation. 
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Anonymous Coward on August 19, 2019, 10:27:44 PM
To be more specific:

If Michigan's offense has really made these changes:


Then ...


But ...
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Temp430 on August 20, 2019, 07:25:33 AM
It's been reported that Ben Mason, even though now primarily on the DL, is still a FB should the need arise.  But now at 280 lbs.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Anonymous Coward on August 21, 2019, 12:00:26 PM
Dwumfour is wearing a soft cast on his hand. Honestly ... that is weirdly excellent news for the season (assuming it's what has kept him just below 100% in camp). Dwumfour's outlook would be significantly worse if he were still struggling through last year's (foot?) injury.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Anonymous Coward on August 21, 2019, 03:05:21 PM
Would like to see the doctors get that under control, if possible. UC is no joke.
Ambry Thomas has shown flashes of being a special player. 
Ambry Thomas is now practicing. That's progress! Being back for UW feels more realistic than ever.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Anonymous Coward on August 21, 2019, 03:12:28 PM
Weird rumbles: it sounds like Dylan McCaffery is going to get 1-2 drives per game. Usually that's because there's an ongoing competition and a team has a so-called "QB controversy." But we are hearing that is emphatically  not the case. That Shea can't be usurped. But Michigan is in the odd position of having a distinctly cemented #1 as well as a #2 who's so good that they have the luxury to win while getting him ready for next year.

We can't know whether it will happen for ~10 days, but that sounds pretty unusual.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: FearlessF on August 21, 2019, 03:21:29 PM
Dylan's little bro true freshman Luke McCaffrey is turning heads at UNL

could possibly be the #2 this season, which would be impressive

apparently the kid is fast on his feet and picked up the offense much quicker than the coaches had imagined
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Cincydawg on August 21, 2019, 03:22:06 PM
If not now, when?
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: FearlessF on August 21, 2019, 03:26:48 PM
Weird rumbles: it sounds like Dylan McCaffery is going to get 1-2 drives per game. Usually that's because there's an ongoing competition and a team has a so-called "QB controversy." But we are hearing that is emphatically  not the case. That Shea can't be usurped. But Michigan is in the odd position of having a distinctly cemented #1 as well as a #2 who's so good that they have the luxury to win while getting him ready for next year.

We can't know whether it will happen for ~10 days, but that sounds pretty unusual.
1 - 2 drives per game vs Middle Tenn and Army might be good.  Or in Big Ten games after gaining a size-able lead
otherwise its unusual
would this be something from the new O-coordinator?  It's obviously not a Harbaugh thing
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Honestbuckeye on August 21, 2019, 05:27:53 PM
I think it is smart. 

First off, kid can ball,  he has already showed it. Second, it’s always a good idea to have your number 2 ready.  
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Anonymous Coward on August 21, 2019, 05:48:21 PM
I don't agree with the idea that Harbaugh wasn't excited to get Dylan on the field last year. I also think the difference between last year and this year is more explainable by Dylan being a year older/better than the OC being new.

As for when it might happen: not sure. I seriously doubt it would ever happen when trailing. But if it looks good versus the noncon, I'd fully expect to keep up the practice versus the Big Ten.

Also: I don't think this is a "trick play" kind of thing either. More of a "we have to play him somehow kind of thing. For sporadic drives in the second and third quarters when Michigan isn't trailing.

As long as they control the "oooooh QB controversy" narrative, there are good net benefits -- benefits for next year and benefits in case Shea gets injured.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Mdot21 on August 21, 2019, 07:10:09 PM
not sold on McCaffrey as a passer, but he sure as hell is a lot faster than people realize. He can really scoot. It's in the DNA. McCaffrey looks much better now physically than when he first arrived at Michigan at 6'5ish and 190 pounds, but he still has some ways to go. He needs to get that weight up to like 230-235.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Mdot21 on August 21, 2019, 07:18:03 PM
Ambry Thomas is now practicing. That's progress! Being back for UW feels more realistic than ever.
HUGE news. They need him back healthy and up to full speed as soon as possible. He's got big time potential and if he's healthy and takes that next step, he could give Michigan the best CB tandem in the conference.

I'd argue that LaVert Hill is the best CB in the leauge right now and that Jeff Okudah at Ohio State is the most physically talented. After Okudah though, next most physically talented CB in the leauge is Ambry Thomas imo. The UC and losing all the weight is a huge setback for him though. He was already on the thin side when he got to Michigan- he was like 6', 170 max. He worked hard to get up to just under 190. And then he got sick and reportedly lost 20 pounds.

He is extremely fast and very athletic and gifted with the ball in his hands. Which is why if I was the coach I'd have moved him to WR. Probably more of a need for him at CB with all the WR's that Michigan has right now- but he could be a special WR just as easily as he could be a special CB. He's that good athletically imo.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Anonymous Coward on August 21, 2019, 10:30:49 PM
McCaffery doesn't have a monster arm, true, but (a) that doesn't mean the arm he does have is wimpsauce and (2) what else does he lack? 

Beyond his athleticism/run game, I really like his decisions and patience. He also seems to have good leadership traits and make good decisions. If it weren't for Shea, I'd still be thrilled about the starting QB ... but not the depth. Having both feels rare. If you disqualify Denard/Gardner because Borges misused Robinson and the OL ruined Devin, then you have to go all the way back to Henson/Brady to find this kind of QB two-deep.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Anonymous Coward on August 21, 2019, 10:32:42 PM
Yeah maybe Ambry could excel there, but Michigan doesn't need anyone new at WR this year.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Mdot21 on August 21, 2019, 10:46:33 PM
Quote
McCaffery doesn't have a monster arm, true, but (a) that doesn't mean the arm he does have is wimpsauce and (2) what else does he lack?

Beyond his athleticism/run game, I really like his decisions and patience. He also seems to have good leadership traits and make good decisions. If it weren't for Shea, I'd still be thrilled about the starting QB ... but not the depth. Having both feels rare. If you disqualify Denard/Gardner because Borges misused Robinson and the OL ruined Devin, then you have to go all the way back to Henson/Brady to find this kind of QB two-deep.
His arm actually did look a little wimpsauce to me. I think his lack of size might've had something to do with that though. Arm strength actually can be developed a little bit. Especially in guys as rail skinny as he was/is when they work on their legs and adding weight.

You really like his decisions and patience? I'm glad you could tell so much from the 15 passes he threw- 99% of which traveled in the air 8 yards or less- and from the 10 rushes he had all season. I'm sorry, but there just isn't anything there. I've never seen someone at Michigan do so little and get so hyped from the fan base. The kid hasn't done jackshit. The only thing he's really shown is really good speed for a guy his size. He can really run. He hasn't shown anything as a passer and it's not like Mallett where you saw him throw 1 pass as a freshman and you'd say to yourself- holy s##t that is not normal. You could just tell that Mallett was special by the way he threw the ball. He was special for Arkansas and not Michigan- but my point still stands. Didn't take a genius to see that kind of talent even with a small sample size. McCaffrey doesn't have that kind of arm talent. Not even close. Have to see a lot more from him before I buy anything.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Anonymous Coward on August 22, 2019, 01:57:39 AM
He looked like a leader at Notre Dame despite taking the field in an awful situation with the team trailing and Shea injured. Composed beyond his years. Made a strong impression. He still hasn't stepped back from that. As for comparisons, in terms of being surprised at how ready he looked in his first game, he reminded me a lot more of Henne than Mallett.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Temp430 on August 22, 2019, 07:18:31 AM
Michigan needs two starting caliber QBs.  I can't remember a season where the "starting" QB wasn't knock out of a game or more at some point in the season.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Temp430 on August 23, 2019, 08:37:18 AM
CB Thomas is practicing again which is good news.  However, there is also a substantial rumor that starting LT Runyan has injured his back and will sit out the first couple games.  In his place OT Hayes will start or maybe Bredeson will move out to LT and a more game ready OG will start.  
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Anonymous Coward on August 23, 2019, 06:10:08 PM
I've heard the same about Runyan with predictions that he'll be back sooner than Ambry (still said to be Wisconsin). In the meantime, I *really* want Bredeson to stay inside. Hayes-Bredeson-Ruiz-Onwenu-Mayfield. I like that. But yes, we've already taken our two tackle get out of jail free cards and thrown them away before the first game. There are now no more of those left until Runyan returns.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Mdot21 on August 27, 2019, 10:33:35 AM
no need to press Runyan into action. If he's hurt/banged up- let him sit the first two games vs MTSU and Army and then take the bye week after those first two games to heal up in order to be ready for Wisconsin. Gives him 3 weeks to heal up in order to be ready for a game they'll really need him for.

Makes no sense to move Bredeson out to LT. Bredenson needs to stay where he's at. Start Ryan Hayes at LT. Who knows. Kid might wind up playing so good he puts Runyan on the bench for good. Hayes is exactly what you want your LT to look like. Runyan isn't. Hayes is a legit 6'7+ and was a TE and also played basketball in high school and came to Michigan as a freshman at 260 pounds. He's tall, very long arms, and athletic for his size. He is the proto-type of what you want in a tackle. 

Honestly, I loved both of Michigan's in-state tackle recruits from the 2018 class. I really want both of them to start this year. Those are what LT and RT recruits should look like imo. I much preferred Mayfield at RT to Andrew Steuber.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: Anonymous Coward on August 27, 2019, 05:07:00 PM
"The Harbaugh Paradox (https://www.michigandaily.com/section/football/max-marcovitch-harbaugh-paradox)"

A relatively brief and honest good take on the divergence between how Michigan fans and outsiders evaluate Harbaugh (how it can be simultaneously true that his job is effectively safe forever while outsiders expect that his seat is hot).
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Offseason Thread
Post by: FearlessF on August 27, 2019, 05:09:55 PM
similar to James Franklin
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Season Thread
Post by: Anonymous Coward on August 27, 2019, 05:29:26 PM
I disagree. Based on the article, we should expect "me disagreeing" to make an outsider laugh. I think we should also expect that insiders at Michigan see their expectations being met and insiders at PSU shouldn't.

Harbaugh is:






Franklin is:


Also:
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Season Thread
Post by: MrNubbz on August 27, 2019, 05:46:40 PM
similar to James Franklin
ISWYDT
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Season Thread
Post by: Mdot21 on August 28, 2019, 02:21:01 PM
Michigan transfers WR Oliver Martin, CB Myles Sims, and DT Aubrey Solomon ALL granted immediate eligibility by the NCAA at their new schools. Maybe, just maybe, Luke Fickell is full of shit?
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Season Thread
Post by: MrNubbz on August 28, 2019, 03:44:33 PM
Totally seperate cases,apples/oranges.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Season Thread
Post by: Anonymous Coward on August 28, 2019, 06:35:15 PM
There's strangely little time focusing on how Harbaugh is pushing an idea for one of the most player friendly new rules out there (for every player to get one free "immediate eligibility" transfer no matter what). The complaints oppose that pretty hard. And, despite the complaints, there still isn't evidence that anyone at Michigan actively tried to deny eligibility for a transfer. There's just arguing about the semantics of what it means for Michigan to "go above and beyond to help their transfers" and whether Fickell actually asked Harbaugh to follow his notes about what to say to the NCAA.

There's still no new information to support either side. As evidenced by the last two posts, plus mine, plus whatever posts come next, this is that classic conversation where everyone repeats the same points until - praise be Jesus - the group loses the energy it takes to keep this up.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Season Thread
Post by: Mdot21 on August 29, 2019, 08:28:38 AM
Totally seperate cases,apples/oranges.
Yes, and once again the NCAA decides these things- not the former school. It's very interesting to me how 3 kids transferring from Michigan to P5 schools get granted immediate eligibility, yet one kid transferring to a school that I don't even know what conference the team he transferred to plays in- gets denied. I think James Hudson's real crime was not transferring to a P5 school. Probably gets approved right away.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Season Thread
Post by: MrNubbz on August 29, 2019, 08:45:33 AM
And Fickell said it wasn't a problem with Bama/Ohio St either.Booger shouldn't air out a kid's personal problems at Media days no less - surely you remember that.He could have only been referring to one individual.And Fickell,Hudson and his mom all liars?At best lets call it a lack of communication.And again I don't agree with immediate transfers.At least not with out some bench time the following season like 4-5-6 games
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Season Thread
Post by: Anonymous Coward on September 01, 2019, 11:19:45 AM
Zach Charbonnet is farther ahead than I (most?) expected. Also, we knew he was fast and had moves, but a few examples of textbook pass blocking were another shock to see.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Season Thread
Post by: Honestbuckeye on September 01, 2019, 11:22:47 AM
Zach Charbonnet is farther ahead than I (most?) expected. Also, we knew he was fast and had moves, but a few examples of textbook pass blocking were another shock to see.
A speedy, powerful glider.  Reminds me of A train
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Season Thread
Post by: Anonymous Coward on September 01, 2019, 12:19:44 PM
I've also seen comparisons to Biakabutuka. He's his own guy, of course, but I wouldn't hate either of those.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Season Thread
Post by: Anonymous Coward on September 02, 2019, 10:09:58 PM
Sounds like the injury concerns from the first game are not long-term (yet):





Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Season Thread
Post by: Temp430 on September 03, 2019, 08:03:21 AM
On defense Michigan looked OK as far as the edge rush goes but not so good in the middle of the DL.   The problem was exacerbated by the mobility of Middle Tennessee's QB.  Not sure what you can do about that if Dwumfour and Jeter remain sidelined.   Michigan's depth issue at CB evaporated in my mind given the play of Thomas and Gray.  Linebacker play was fine.

On offense it looked like a first game.  Charbonnet was better than I had hoped.  The fumbles and dropped passes will get cleaned up.  The offense will be scary good when Runyan and DJP return and they all have another game and two weeks of practice behind them.

Special teams were good with the exception of Hill muffing a punt.  What are they thinking?  
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Season Thread
Post by: Anonymous Coward on September 03, 2019, 12:48:51 PM
Yeah, on the basis of AT's colitis (apparently it was even a 35-lb weight loss then gain, not the +/- 20, I've previously shared) and Vincent Gray struggling in the spring game, my #1 concern shifted hard from DT to CB this summer.

And now it seems that the CBs are in contention to be as good as they've been any of the last 4-5 years.

But that DT depth is rough. Granted we have Kemp, Dwumfour and Jeter in front but behind their top three or four tackles a team like OSU has Jashon Cornell and we have ... Ben Mason. That's trouble.

We really need the touted true freshmen to not be busts. Even then that's more for the future than for this season. Though I won't be surprised if Hinton is getting Mason's back-up snaps by late November.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Season Thread
Post by: Anonymous Coward on September 03, 2019, 12:52:20 PM
I really like the LBs, though. If it hadn't been for Ambry, I think we'd be calling Josh Ross the best defender of the week. His sideline to sideline speed comes awfully close to replacing Bush. At times, it was hard to tell the difference.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Season Thread
Post by: Anonymous Coward on September 03, 2019, 02:09:02 PM
Lavert and  Khaleke synchronized to let us know football is back:

(https://thumbs.gfycat.com/SeveralSaneFieldspaniel-mobile.mp4)
Josh Ross impersonating  Devin Bush:

(https://thumbs.gfycat.com/BlindCalculatingIcelandicsheepdog-mobile.mp4)
Nico Collins sits on a guy in the endzone:

(https://thumbs.gfycat.com/FilthyArtisticAlpaca-mobile.mp4)
Ambry is fully weaponized:
(https://thumbs.gfycat.com/LeanAlertBarnswallow-mobile.mp4)
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Season Thread
Post by: Anonymous Coward on September 03, 2019, 05:10:28 PM
With Runyan and Spanellis returning, the 2-deep is changing back:

https://twitter.com/orion_sang/status/1163828291964481541?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1163828291964481541&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fmgoblog.com%2Fcontent%2Funverified-voracity-already-pass-pro

I'll be interested to see the thirid party player grades that come out ~Thursday. Many fans are describing Hayes day as slightly better than Mayfield's. Either way, boy is it nice to be able to rely on OL back-ups to do just fine, especially freshmen OTs.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Season Thread
Post by: Anonymous Coward on September 04, 2019, 01:24:45 AM
This came a play or two before the play action TD to Nico. It appears to have been the most satisfying drive for fans.

https://twitter.com/CoachDanCasey/status/1168632871151710208
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Season Thread
Post by: Mdot21 on September 04, 2019, 02:17:19 AM
Josh Ross impersonating  Devin Bush:

(https://thumbs.gfycat.com/BlindCalculatingIcelandicsheepdog-mobile.mp4)
Nico Collins sits on a guy in the endzone:

(https://thumbs.gfycat.com/FilthyArtisticAlpaca-mobile.mp4)
Ambry is fully weaponized:
(https://thumbs.gfycat.com/LeanAlertBarnswallow-mobile.mp4)

Josh Ross is going to be very good. He’s taller and longer than Bush. Doesn’t have that 4.4 speed that Bush had, few LBs do- but he’s plenty fast enough for an ILB. Ross’ older brother was a very good LB for Michigan. Josh is going to be even better. He’s a future NFL draft pick at LB imo. He won’t replace Bush- no one can- but he will be one of the best ILB in the B1G. 

Nico Collins’ ability to play the ball in the air and go up and get it is ridiculous. He is a future NFL draft pick at WR. Might be a pretty high one. Urban Meyer was right- Michigan has 3 legit high NFL draft choices at WR. 

Ambry Thomas is a freak athlete. That pic was a thing of beauty. I am excited to see what he can do in this defense in a featured starting role. Vincent Gray looked excellent as well. He looked very fluid and long and lanky and just looked like a natural at CB. CB should be a real strength of this defense. 

What scares the hell out of me on that defense is the safeties and the defensive tackles. Metellus, Brad Hawkins, and JKP all played bad games. I’ve seen enough. START DAX HILL. Ben Mason playing DT over Chris Hinton and Mazi Smith is a bad joke. Who cares if they are rookies. They are true defensive tackles. Ben Mason is barely a legit scholarship player and he is that as a fullback- not an interior defensive linemen.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Season Thread
Post by: Honestbuckeye on September 09, 2019, 07:24:05 AM
https://www.elevenwarriors.com/skull-sessions/2019/09/106588/ohio-state-football-urban-meyer-fox-television-analyst-justin-fields-elusive-extend-plays-joe-burrow-beat-texas

Go to the analysis by Meyer of Michigan running double and triple option.   Hate urban all you want- but this is good stuff, and why you should feel Michigan is just going to get harder and harder to defend as they get more experience at this.  
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Season Thread
Post by: CatsbyAZ on September 10, 2019, 02:47:07 PM
Well, sports media is at it again, waiting in the weeds to rail on Harbaugh, and last weekend’s Army game is the latest rallying point. Last year it was the season opening loss to Notre Dame that became the season-long excuse to rail on Harbaugh. Is there some sort’ve background movement rooting for Michigan to move on from Harbaugh? Perhaps the same journalists blindly linking every NFL opening to Jim Harbaugh? Yea we know Harbaugh is “polarizing” as every last columnist labels Jim ad nauseum, but name anyone reasonable worth moving on to.

Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Season Thread
Post by: CatsbyAZ on September 12, 2019, 09:21:18 PM
I mean the LA Times lead their sports section with a hit piece on Harbaugh earlier this week.

https://www.latimes.com/sports/story/2019-09-07/college-football-michigan-jim-harbaugh-army-shea-patterson-zach-charbonnet

The most brainless critics are the ones who bring up how hot Harbaugh’s seat is without having the balls to name anyone Michigan should move on to. There’s isn’t a better coach for Michigan out there. Besides, only about 4 current coaches have botched more wins during Harbaugh’s time there.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Season Thread
Post by: MrNubbz on September 12, 2019, 10:02:18 PM
Yea we know Harbaugh is “polarizing” as every last columnist labels Jim ad nauseum, but name anyone reasonable worth moving on to.
I'd take Matt Campbell in a second
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Season Thread
Post by: Anonymous Coward on September 12, 2019, 11:06:28 PM
Well, sports media is at it again, waiting in the weeds to rail on Harbaugh, and last weekend’s Army game is the latest rallying point. Last year it was the season opening loss to Notre Dame that became the season-long excuse to rail on Harbaugh. Is there some sort’ve background movement rooting for Michigan to move on from Harbaugh? Perhaps the same journalists blindly linking every NFL opening to Jim Harbaugh? Yea we know Harbaugh is “polarizing” as every last columnist labels Jim ad nauseum, but name anyone reasonable worth moving on to.


I didn't see this until now. Harbaugh came to Michigan as a celebrity and flew in hot. He had a thousand silly one-liners (chicken being a nervous bird) and hyper-competitive strategies (large-scale satellite camp popularization) that became daily fodder for readers. For a while the turnover on fodder may have been close to hourly. And readers lapped it up, almost unprecedentedly. Even the people who hated the "content" still clicked through and then popped onto a message board to vent their spleen, ultimately guaranteeing their involvement in the machine.

As much as or more than any other coach, people know about Jim Harbaugh and have an opinion. Which means that his name drives as many clicks on its own as any coach -- college, pro, or national. So these articles are just typical business economics. I don't identify as cynical, but bet I'm going to come off that way here: I am skeptical that more than 50-60% of these articles are completely informed or completely sincere. Because no matter the message of a Harbaugh article, writing it is a good business decision -- it's picking a subject that is guaranteed to drive up the stats that their employers will focus on when the calendar spins to job performance evaluation day.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Season Thread
Post by: Temp430 on September 13, 2019, 07:46:18 AM
If Rodriguez or Hoke had Harbaugh's record they'd likely still be coaching in Ann Arbor.  For the vast majority of Michigan fans there is no one they would rather have coach Michigan than Harbaugh.  If you feel otherwise, please let me know who you'd like to see as coach.  I like to laugh.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Season Thread
Post by: Mdot21 on September 13, 2019, 08:28:50 AM
if he doesn't beat Ohio State this year- he never will and he can go take a hike as far as I'm concerned.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Season Thread
Post by: MrNubbz on September 13, 2019, 10:02:14 AM
If Rodriguez or Hoke had Harbaugh's record they'd likely still be coaching in Ann Arbor.  For the vast majority of Michigan fans there is no one they would rather have coach Michigan than Harbaugh.  If you feel otherwise, please let me know who you'd like to see as coach.  I like to laugh.
Look up thread,this is JH's 5th year he has to make in roads.No excuses BTCG or bust.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Season Thread
Post by: Anonymous Coward on September 13, 2019, 11:06:10 AM
if he doesn't beat Ohio State this year- he never will and he can go take a hike as far as I'm concerned.
That's sensationalizing, and I don't really understand it. Especially given that it is quite plausible that Ryan Day will finish his career as less legendary than Urban Meyer, in which case it's quite plausible that 2019 will be the hardest year to beat a Ryan Day HC'd OSU team, since the Meyer culture and player development is still the highest it can be moving forward.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Season Thread
Post by: CatsbyAZ on September 22, 2019, 11:33:24 AM
“Jim, I’m tired of it. I’m done. I’m signing off.”

https://twitter.com/ClayTravis/status/1175558256871260161
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Season Thread
Post by: Cincydawg on September 22, 2019, 11:36:26 AM
If UM fans are fine with 10-3 or even 11-2 years losing to OSU, they should be fine with JH, who might not be 10-3 this season.

This was to be The Year, and it obviously won't be.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Season Thread
Post by: MrNubbz on September 22, 2019, 11:44:53 AM
When UMs 1st play was that long pass completion that's what I thought there would be more of and perhaps could have had.But momentum took a hit with the fumble and very bad incompletion call.That's on the HC however to rally the troops
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Season Thread
Post by: 847badgerfan on September 22, 2019, 05:49:18 PM
This is not a good look.

https://saturdaytradition.com/michigan-football/internal-frustration-michigan-wr-likes-tweet-with-hashtag-fireharbaugh/
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Season Thread
Post by: Kris60 on September 22, 2019, 05:58:10 PM
“Jim, I’m tired of it. I’m done. I’m signing off.”

https://twitter.com/ClayTravis/status/1175558256871260161
I don’t know what that guy was saying.  I couldn’t get over how terrible his yard looked.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Season Thread
Post by: CWSooner on September 22, 2019, 06:02:57 PM
This is not a good look.

https://saturdaytradition.com/michigan-football/internal-frustration-michigan-wr-likes-tweet-with-hashtag-fireharbaugh/
Surely he's going to have to say that he didn't see the hashtag.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Season Thread
Post by: CWSooner on September 22, 2019, 06:05:18 PM
I don’t know what that guy was saying.  I couldn’t get over how terrible his yard looked.
That whole thing was sort of weird.  He had an "Alabama Baseball" t-shirt on, and the whole image was reversed as if in a mirror.
I wouldn't bet my last dollar that that guy was a Michigan fan.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Season Thread
Post by: ELA on September 22, 2019, 06:36:21 PM
That whole thing was sort of weird.  He had an "Alabama Baseball" t-shirt on, and the whole image was reversed as if in a mirror.
I wouldn't bet my last dollar that that guy was a Michigan fan.
You've never been to Michigan I take it?

Also, it's a Southgate HS baseball shirt
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Season Thread
Post by: CWSooner on September 22, 2019, 06:43:41 PM
You've never been to Michigan I take it?

Also, it's a Southgate HS baseball shirt
No, I haven't.  It's one of 7 states I haven't visited.

I have conflicting images of Michigan.  Detroit on the one hand, Ann Arbor on the other.

You know, I read the backwards "Southgate" on the shirt, but then all I remembered was the semi-cursive "A" that looks just like Bama's.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Season Thread
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on September 22, 2019, 07:03:54 PM
I'd take Matt Campbell in a second

Zero Conference Titles, .500 Bowl record, 0-4 vs rival Iowa... 

Harbaugh can do that. 
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Season Thread
Post by: MrNubbz on September 22, 2019, 07:32:47 PM
Well he's beaten Texas and Oklahoma and it's not like Ferentz shellacked him and ISU has always been the little step brother there.He did good things at Toledo & BG.Iowa won by 1 pt last week and by 3 in OT 2 years ago.Flip the script and see how Capt Kirk does
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Season Thread
Post by: ELA on September 22, 2019, 07:46:02 PM
No, I haven't.  It's one of 7 states I haven't visited.

I have conflicting images of Michigan.  Detroit on the one hand, Ann Arbor on the other.

You know, I read the backwards "Southgate" on the shirt, but then all I remembered was the semi-cursive "A" that looks just like Bama's.
Finding a UM alum/UM fan within the state borders is rare
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Season Thread
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on September 22, 2019, 07:52:29 PM
Well he's beaten Texas and Oklahoma and it's not like Ferentz shellacked him and ISU has always been the little step brother there.He did good things at Toledo & BG.Iowa won by 1 pt last week and by 3 in OT 2 years ago.Flip the script and see how Capt Kirk does

Ferentz has always struggled in CyHawk games.

His domination over them during the Campbell era is the exception, not the rule. 
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Season Thread
Post by: CatsbyAZ on September 22, 2019, 08:02:22 PM
That whole thing was sort of weird.  He had an "Alabama Baseball" t-shirt on, and the whole image was reversed as if in a mirror.
I wouldn't bet my last dollar that that guy was a Michigan fan.


Now on that you mentioned it, it does get weird. His neighbor’s maniacal laugh at the end - when he’s explaining “I’m just breaking my Jim Harbaugh Bobblehead” is unsettling in a hilarious way. And yes his yard is awful. As for the Bama logo I thought I saw an M logo on the sleeve of golf club he defiantly tears off.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Season Thread
Post by: MichiFan87 on September 22, 2019, 08:10:45 PM
Finding a UM alum/UM fan within the state borders is rare
Even though a lot of Michigan grads aren't from there and/or left the state after graduating, there are still many more Michigan grads in Metro Detroit than anywhere else. I couldn't find the actual numbers, but a quick LinkedIn search is proportionally representative enough, which shows that nearly 90k out of 292k alumni on LinkedIn live in Metro Detroit. Even if a lot of those are current students (Michigan's enrollment is ~46k), after excluding those, that's still a lot more than the next largest chapters (NYC has 26k, Chicago 18k, Bay Area 16k, DC 12k).

As for the discussion, yesterday was incredibly disappointing and frustrating. In retrospect, I'm glad they got blown out, though. Maybe the players and coaches will finally get their heads out of their asses and play / coach to their potential. There's no reason the offense shouldn't be much better and the defense didn't look good yesterday, either, especially considering it usually does will against more traditional offenses.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Season Thread
Post by: MrNubbz on September 22, 2019, 08:18:42 PM
Ferentz has always struggled in CyHawk games.

His domination over them during the Campbell era is the exception, not the rule.
Domination isn't 2 games by 1 pt & 3 pt OT.Iowa is a more established program
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Season Thread
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on September 22, 2019, 08:25:31 PM
Domination isn't 2 games by 1 pt & 3 pt OT.Iowa is a more established program

Harbaugh has suffered some close rivalry losses that could have gone either way as well. 

Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Season Thread
Post by: Cincydawg on September 22, 2019, 09:14:59 PM
Alaska was my 49th state.

ND is left.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Season Thread
Post by: CWSooner on September 22, 2019, 09:25:07 PM
It's hard to win at Iowa State, despite the very faithful fan-base.  You're a long way from the great recruiting fields, and as I understand it there's not all that much in Ames, IA, to attract kids from a thousand miles away to come there.

Within the Big 12, Matt Campbell is well respected, and is considered to be doing more with less than any other coach in the conference.

By contrast, the Jim Harbaugh who is being discussed on this board seems to be doing less with more.

That was the rap on Mack Brown at Texas.  "Coach February" he was called, in recognition of his recruiting success that did not fully translate into on-the-field results.  Bob Stoops' OU teams laid some of the worst beatings in UT history on Mack's Longhorns.  But Mack won the BCS national championship for 2005, then coached for another one after the 2009 season, and might have won that one too had Colt McCoy not been knocked out of the game.

There's a lot more to being a head coach at a blue-blood program than merely coaching ability, as previously outstanding coaches so often find when they take a position at one of the blue-blood schools.  Coaches like Rich Rodriguez and Brady Hoke.  But I'm confident that Matt Campbell can coach a football team.  Could he run a program like Michigan football, with all the other things above and beyond coaching that that job entails?  Who knows?
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Season Thread
Post by: CWSooner on September 22, 2019, 09:27:26 PM
Alaska was my 49th state.

ND is left.
What did you do in SD?  Go to Sturgis for the big biker festival?  ;)
The Dakotas and Minnesota are three of the seven I haven't visited.  Oops!  Eight.  I forgot about Maine.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Season Thread
Post by: 847badgerfan on September 22, 2019, 09:31:02 PM
STARZZ, baby


STARZZ!!
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Season Thread
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on September 22, 2019, 09:49:11 PM
What did you do in SD?  .

(https://images2.minutemediacdn.com/image/upload/c_fill,g_auto,h_1248,w_2220/f_auto,q_auto,w_1100/v1555173328/shape/mentalfloss/istock-92166742.jpg)
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Season Thread
Post by: CWSooner on September 22, 2019, 10:38:14 PM
(https://images2.minutemediacdn.com/image/upload/c_fill,g_auto,h_1248,w_2220/f_auto,q_auto,w_1100/v1555173328/shape/mentalfloss/istock-92166742.jpg)
Sure, there is Mt. Rushmore, but STURGIS, man!  ;-)
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Season Thread
Post by: Cincydawg on September 23, 2019, 06:21:44 AM
I drove the kids to a dude ranch in Wyoming in 1994 or so and crossed SD.  We stayed near Wall as I recall.  I recall getting up early the next morning and making Wyoming about 9 AM their time and thinking I was almost there.  I got there at 4 PM.  That was our best vacation overall.

It was a lot of driving in a 4 cylinder minivan with 3 kids and a manual transmission.  I had books on cassette tapes.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Season Thread
Post by: TamrielsKeeper on September 23, 2019, 07:44:39 AM
Zero Conference Titles, .500 Bowl record, 0-4 vs rival Iowa...

Harbaugh can do that.
We'll see how Campbell does this season, but if it gets to 8+ wins this year, you're writing off some major accomplishments.  He's going to be really good for some major program, not sure which yet.

That program was a mess when he arrived.  Winning 8+ games 3 straight years at Iowa State can be viewed similarly to making the CFP at a program like Ohio State/Michigan, assuming he does win 8+ this season, which I think he will.  The resource disadvantage you have at ISU vs. the rest of the Big 12 is immense.  He went 3-1 against AP top 10 opponents in 2017-2018.  At Iowa State.  I wouldn't compare that to Harbaugh.

I'm not sure who Michigan will go after, but as an outside observer, I definitely think they should hire someone like Campbell rather than stick to someone who has connections to the program.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Season Thread
Post by: MrNubbz on September 23, 2019, 09:11:23 AM
Harbaugh has suffered some close rivalry losses that could have gone either way as well. 


ARE you seriously comparing Michigan's resources or even Iowas to the Cyclones.I'd love to see Campbell at those gigs.This isn't even apples to oranges it's Grape Fruit to crab apples  :017:.Come to think of it I may not want to see Campbell in AA.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Season Thread
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on September 23, 2019, 09:23:55 AM
Harbaugh also did Campbell-esque things at Stanford, which was absolutely dreadful when he took over.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Season Thread
Post by: MrNubbz on September 23, 2019, 09:30:30 AM
I guess we won't know until Campbell gets his shot at a top 10-15 program.The reason I bring this up when Cooper was fumbling things away in C-Bus my Buckeye Grad friends and I traveled 75 miles down the road to Stambaugh Stadium.That's in Y'Town to see a little known coach from Berea,Ohio help YSU win some big games for the Penguins
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Season Thread
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on September 23, 2019, 09:47:32 AM
John Cooper is somewhat comparable to Campbell. 

Lots of wins, some close losses in rivalry games, maybe a few more Conference titles... 
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Season Thread
Post by: MrNubbz on September 23, 2019, 09:57:07 AM
Put that thing out you'll burn your fingers.Cooper was very avg at Tulsa where he lost to the rival(Ok St)more often than not before they were decent.At AZ St he was 0-2-1 vs his rival Arizona.He started off 0-4 vs Michigan before the tied a game then lost and finally beat them in his 7th season.Funny the guys before and after Cooper both had winning records vs the Wolverines.In Coopers 13 seasons he was 2-10-1 vs UM,yet during that tenure both OSU & Michigan had 64 players drafted.What was the disparity - a crappy head coach that's what.Just like Lane Kiffin he kept falling forward.YOU could have done a better job - the man should have been shit canned after establishing himself as failure in big games - I lived through it.Look at Georgia after finally cutting ties to Mark Richt.Nice guy but isn't going to get you over that hump.The die hards had the torches & pitchforks out long before Coop got finally got pinched.Maybe you were in huggies during that period
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Season Thread
Post by: Mdot21 on September 23, 2019, 10:07:45 AM
I am pretty much off the Harbaugh bandwagon, but you almost have to keep him. Who are you going to find better to replace him? He's going to get you 10-3 every year, with maybe a 8-5 in there like this year looks like and like 2017 was. Michigan was a disaster before him with Rodriguez and Hoke. 10-3 with 8-5 years sprinkled in is a hell of a lot better than the disaster they were with the previous coaches.

Can't really get rid of him until there is something better to replace him with. I'm not seeing the next Meyer or Saban out there. If there was a hot-young coach like Meyer back in '03-'04 then I'd say go for it. I don't see that guy anywhere however. I'd love to nab Lincoln Riley, but he's not leaving OU.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Season Thread
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on September 23, 2019, 10:08:08 AM
Campbell would be a good first phone call if Hairball goes back to the NFL. 

I just don't see the rational behind running off Harbaugh, just to hire a less established version there of. 

That's just asking for another faceplant of epic proportions. 
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Season Thread
Post by: Cincydawg on September 23, 2019, 10:11:21 AM
It all hinges on expectations.  At say Iowa State, expectations are obviously lower, and 9-4 is a solid season.  What should expectations be at Michigan, realistically?  10-3?

OK then.  But for any who "expect" to compete* for NCs almost every year, that won't cut it.

(By compete, I mean be in the conversation at least until the last game of the year.)
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Season Thread
Post by: MrNubbz on September 23, 2019, 10:13:18 AM
Oh I hope they don't run him off.Just sayin after 5-6 seasons in ya gotta start thinking about it.JH is just different had he won the division or conference once he'd be in a good postion.The natives are getting restless.I'd give him one more season but he has to salvage this season somewhat
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Season Thread
Post by: FearlessF on September 23, 2019, 10:14:14 AM
I would guess the folks in AA expect to beat the Buckeyes more than a few times a decade

I'm just guessing
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Season Thread
Post by: MrNubbz on September 23, 2019, 10:17:24 AM
That's just crazy talk, like the CornHuskers expecting to :singing:
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Season Thread
Post by: FearlessF on September 23, 2019, 10:18:15 AM
that's right, keep those lips flappin
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Season Thread
Post by: TamrielsKeeper on September 23, 2019, 10:20:09 AM
I don't think Harbaugh is getting to 10-3 this year.

Michigan looked like a 7-5/8-4 type team on Saturday.  They looked soft and undisciplined - I think they'll lose to MSU/OSU/Notre Dame, and will lose at least one of Iowa/Penn State/Maryland.

I don't think UM will need to fire Harbaugh, my guess is he'll still have interest from the NFL and take a job there to get out and save face.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Season Thread
Post by: Mdot21 on September 23, 2019, 10:20:54 AM
I would guess the folks in AA expect to beat the Buckeyes more than a few times a decade

I'm just guessing
Ohio State has won 14 of the last 16 vs Michigan. Michigan is 2-14 vs Ohio State in the last 16 games. That is pathetic.

The folks in AA used to expect to beat the Buckeyes every year. For 13 years Michigan dominated OSU. John Cooper's record vs Michigan was 2-10-1.

They've taken it to Michigan even worse than Michigan took it to them when Cooper was there.

Ever since Bo got to A2 in '69 the series was pretty even from that point til Cooper arrived. Michigan dominated the Cooper years. Then Tressell arrived and Ohio State has dominated ever since.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Season Thread
Post by: Mdot21 on September 23, 2019, 10:22:16 AM
I don't think UM will need to fire Harbaugh, my guess is he'll still have interest from the NFL and take a job there to get out and save face.
they will be 8-5 or 9-4 imo.

I think Harbaugh's NFL stock is plummeting right now.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Season Thread
Post by: MrNubbz on September 23, 2019, 10:27:01 AM
that's right, keep those lips flappin
You mean fingers tappin',hey you don't have the shorthorns to kick around anymore.Might as well whip up the froth with the poisonous nuts for a week ta keep the blood flowin'
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Season Thread
Post by: FearlessF on September 23, 2019, 10:28:31 AM
I like it and enjoy it

just hopin for some bad karma to keep the game close into the 2nd half
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Season Thread
Post by: MrNubbz on September 23, 2019, 10:31:18 AM
Hey Purdue and Iowa woodshedded the Bucks so the Huskers certainly may steal one at home if Martinez shows up
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Season Thread
Post by: 847badgerfan on September 23, 2019, 10:45:58 AM
It all hinges on expectations.  At say Iowa State, expectations are obviously lower, and 9-4 is a solid season.  What should expectations be at Michigan, realistically?  10-3?

OK then.  But for any who "expect" to compete* for NCs almost every year, that won't cut it.

(By compete, I mean be in the conversation at least until the last game of the year.)
Bo is revered in Ann Arbor for winning 9 games per season and losing Rose Bowl games. What kept him around and revered was his 11-9-1 record against Ohio State, as well as beating up on the Little 8.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Season Thread
Post by: MrNubbz on September 23, 2019, 10:49:09 AM
Different times back then they didn't hand out Bowl Games like condoms at the Free Clinic
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Season Thread
Post by: FearlessF on September 23, 2019, 10:56:00 AM
different for sure, but his point is : if Jimmy was winning 9 games per season and losing Rose Bowl games (not winning toilet bowls) and had a 11-9-1 record against Ohio State

Jimmy would be in great shape
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Season Thread
Post by: 847badgerfan on September 23, 2019, 11:02:28 AM
Yeah, that was my point. Now, with the extra games added, I'd say JH would be in good shape if he averaged 10 wins and beat his rival(s) at a better clip.

There is a chance he could go O-fer this season against MSU, ND and OSU (and PSU).

Michigan needs to show up this weekend and not overlook ________ in favor of Iowa. 
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Season Thread
Post by: SuperMario on September 23, 2019, 12:09:48 PM
Yeah, that was my point. Now, with the extra games added, I'd say JH would be in good shape if he averaged 10 wins and beat his rival(s) at a better clip.

There is a chance he could go O-fer this season against MSU, ND and OSU (and PSU).

Michigan needs to show up this weekend and not overlook ________ in favor of Iowa.
There's a very good chance of that happening. Not only was Wisconsin very good, but Michigan was very bad this weekend. They were slow, soft and poorly coached. As much as JH was supposed to be the QB Whisperer, he has actually turned out to be the exact opposite. 

The characteristic of JH that has always made me uneasy is that he seems like he has a greater desire to be Aristotle than Paul Brown. I like that he's trying to shape men, but sooner or later the football fan in me needs to see more wins and less tours of Italy and quotes about choices between good and evil. 
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Season Thread
Post by: Anonymous Coward on September 23, 2019, 12:42:34 PM
Got back home late last night. My thoughts:



Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Season Thread
Post by: Mdot21 on September 23, 2019, 01:08:36 PM
Different times back then they didn't hand out Bowl Games like condoms at the Free Clinic
Lmao
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Season Thread
Post by: Mdot21 on September 23, 2019, 01:17:45 PM
Shea Patterson is terrible. It's time to see what McCaffrey has provided he clears concussion protocol.

Jim Harbaugh is a has been. I am pretty sure that the guy is on meds that stabilize his mood. He has the signs of it to me. I don't see the raging competitive asshole that went nuts on refs and players. Reminds me of my father who was a psycho, went on meds and then just became a boring shell of himself. Where the hell is the fire from Jim? Where is the passion? Where is the crazed dog? Where is that competitiveness he used to display openly and it used to rub off on the team. Jim was never a great X's and O's guy, Jim was never a great personnel guy, Jim was never a great decision maker. What he was was a great motivator. His energy rubbed off on his teams and he willed them to victory almost with his competitiveness and his edge. He made everyone of his teams raise their level of competitiveness and toughness. That's completely gone to me. Jim has been neutered and he's not the same coach anymore.

This team has zero energy. This team has zero leadership. This team has zero sense of urgency. This team has zero discipline. This team has zero accountiblity. Where is the leader barking at the teammates and getting on their asses for not playing up to standard. Shea has no leadership. Look at Peyton Manning or Troy Aikman or Tom Brady or Dan Marino. Those guys are COMPETITIVE to a fault. They were hard on themselves and hard on teammates. They demanded perfection from themselves and from everyone around them. I DO NOT see this from little Shea. I see a pouting pussy ass millenial with zero fire and zero will to compete that refuses to look in the mirror and lay blame where it belongs: with himself.

This team/program is soft. And it's only edge would have been it's toughness, because Jim can't out-scheme or out coach any legit high level coach. He just can't. His ability in that regard is just average at best.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Season Thread
Post by: Cincydawg on September 23, 2019, 01:21:04 PM
So, can this season be saved?
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Season Thread
Post by: Mdot21 on September 23, 2019, 01:28:05 PM
Bo is revered in Ann Arbor for winning 9 games per season and losing Rose Bowl games. What kept him around and revered was his 11-9-1 record against Ohio State, as well as beating up on the Little 8.
Bo won more than 9 games per season. He won 10 or more games 12 times in his 21 years at Michigan. He had a 4 year stretch where he only lost 3 games in 4 years. He went 41-3-1 from '71-'74.

Jim is losing 3 games a season minimum right now. Harbaugh could only dream of a stretch run like that at this point. Bo was the head coach at Michigan for 21 years. He went 21 years without ever having a losing season. 6-6 in 1984 was his worst season- a .500 season. That's pretty impressive, to go 21 years and never have a losing season. Every other of Bo's 20 years- he had a minimum of 8 wins.

Yeah he lost too many Rose Bowls, but aside from that he was a great coach. He was a model of consistency, won a ton of games, and he beat Ohio State more than he lost to Ohio State.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Season Thread
Post by: Mdot21 on September 23, 2019, 01:29:14 PM
So, can this season be saved?
bench Shea and get Harbaugh off his meds and get the fiery competitive ahole psycho back and maybe there's a chance.

Otherwise, this team loses 3-4 more games. Possibly even more.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Season Thread
Post by: Cincydawg on September 23, 2019, 01:33:24 PM
I should say salvaged, not saved.  It can't be "saved" in terms of preseason expectations I think.

Rutger - Win
Iowa - probable win, but not clear cut
@ Ill - probable win
@ Penn State - probable loss
ND - probable loss
@ UMd - probable win unless the wheels come off, which is possible
MSU - 50-50 at best
@ IND - probable win
OSU - probable loss

So, 8-4 appears "probable", perhaps, and worse is very possible, better seems unlikely.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Season Thread
Post by: MichiFan87 on September 23, 2019, 01:34:32 PM
This season is reminiscent of 2007 so far, except Michigan beat Army instead of losing to App State. 07 Oregon (before Dixon got hurt) is roughly comparable to Wisconsin this year. That 07 team got its heads of their asses and won the next 8 games with some decent wins and also had a chance at Wisconsin and vs Ohio State despite Henne being out and playing hurt in those respective games, before finally beating Florida during Tebow's Heisman year in the bowl game.

I'm not sure this team has the leadership to more or less repeat that, but I do think it's possible....
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Season Thread
Post by: Mdot21 on September 23, 2019, 01:36:17 PM
This season is reminiscent of 2007 so far, except Michigan beat Army instead of losing to App State. 07 Oregon (before Dixon got hurt) is roughly comparable to Wisconsin this year. That 07 team got its heads of their asses and won the next 8 games with some decent wins and also had a chance at Wisconsin and vs Ohio State despite Henne being out and playing hurt in those respective games, before finally beating Florida during Tebow's Heisman year in the bowl game.

I'm not sure this team has the leadership to more or less repeat that, but I do think it's possible....
this team doesn't have that leadership.


Henne and Mike Hart and Jake Long were LEADERS. Don't see any leaders on this team.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Season Thread
Post by: 847badgerfan on September 23, 2019, 01:55:19 PM
Bo won more than 9 games per season. He won 10 or more games 12 times in his 21 years at Michigan. He had a 4 year stretch where he only lost 3 games in 4 years. He went 41-3-1 from '71-'74.

Jim is losing 3 games a season minimum right now. Harbaugh could only dream of a stretch run like that at this point. Bo was the head coach at Michigan for 21 years. He went 21 years without ever having a losing season. 6-6 in 1984 was his worst season- a .500 season. That's pretty impressive, to go 21 years and never have a losing season. Every other of Bo's 20 years- he had a minimum of 8 wins.

Yeah he lost too many Rose Bowls, but aside from that he was a great coach. He was a model of consistency, won a ton of games, and he beat Ohio State more than he lost to Ohio State.
I just took his win total of 194, and divided by 21.

9.23 wins/season.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Season Thread
Post by: FearlessF on September 23, 2019, 02:20:35 PM
bench Shea and get Harbaugh off his meds and get the fiery competitive ahole psycho back and maybe there's a chance.

Otherwise, this team loses 3-4 more games. Possibly even more.
so, does Brother John in the NFL still display some fire on the sideline?
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Season Thread
Post by: SuperMario on September 23, 2019, 02:29:14 PM
I just took his win total of 194, and divided by 21.

9.23 wins/season.
It's a little unfair to use math and actual data. 
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Season Thread
Post by: Honestbuckeye on September 23, 2019, 03:10:31 PM
 I am not going to pile on Michigan here. Having watched my team look that way on numerous occasions it’s already not fun. 

 Can’t deny I was surprised - not so much by the winni, as I had said I had no idea who would win that game but more by the margin.  I could tell Wisconsin was really damn good but wasn’t sure about Michigan 

 On the one hand I can’t say I’ve ever seen Michigan look so, I don’t know  .... out of it.      No explanation for that as I feel they have good coaching and damn good players too.  

On the other hand we may want to just chill out as fans because we have this tendency to over react to games like this. When things look great there never really is good as they look for a college football team, and when things look bad they’re usually not as bad as they look.

Wisconsin is clearly fantastic, and maybe Michigan is working their way up to that slowly. Who knows?
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Season Thread
Post by: Cincydawg on September 23, 2019, 03:20:00 PM
A lot of us are good about trying not to draw too much from one data point.  Maybe this was "one of those games", the likes of which we've mostly all seen from our teams at times, I know I have.  A very good UGA team lost to a decent (10-4) Tennessee team 35-14  in 2007 and cost them a shot.  They looked dazed and hapless in that game, it was peculiar.  UGA ended up ranked 2nd and 3rd that season with an 11-2 record (the other lose to USCe).

So, maybe we're seeing overly much here?



Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Season Thread
Post by: MichiFan87 on September 23, 2019, 03:49:44 PM
Nobody on the team has actually quit yet....

Meanwhile, D'Eriq King at Houston just decided to redshirt and sit out the rest of the year to grad transfer elsewhere. That's a disturbing precedent that I hope not too many others take advantage of and risk coaches convincing the NCAA to do away with the exemption, because I think it's done a lot more good than bad.... Though it might be worth adjusting the 4-game RS rule, which I think has also been a net-plus but less so.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Season Thread
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on September 23, 2019, 04:00:56 PM
A lot of us are good about trying not to draw too much from one data point.  Maybe this was "one of those games", the likes of which we've mostly all seen from our teams at times, I know I have.  A very good UGA team lost to a decent (10-4) Tennessee team 35-14  in 2007 and cost them a shot.  They looked dazed and hapless in that game, it was peculiar.  UGA ended up ranked 2nd and 3rd that season with an 11-2 record (the other lose to USCe).

So, maybe we're seeing overly much here?
I agree with your underlying point that it is dangerous to read too much into one game but Michigan hasn't looked anywhere near like what most of us expected in any of their three games so far this season.  They beat MTSU reasonably comfortably but the game was competitive until late in the third and MTSU lost to DOOK by a similar score.  The Army and Wisconsin games were clearly WAY below what most of us expected from Michigan this year.  

They could get it turned around.  There are good athletes in Ann Arbor so don't count them completely out but so far this team is not even remotely close to expectations.  
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Season Thread
Post by: Cincydawg on September 23, 2019, 04:03:16 PM
Fair enough analysis right there, I think.

Expectations and reality.

We have four games of data, we have to try and glean what we can from that.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Season Thread
Post by: FearlessF on September 23, 2019, 04:10:26 PM
things are rarely as good or as bad as they seem after any win or loss.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Season Thread
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on September 23, 2019, 04:16:03 PM
Bo ... beat Ohio State more than he lost to Ohio State.
I think it is a little bit dangerous and can be misleading to rate a coach based on how he does against a rival because those rivals have their own ups-and-downs.  Auburn losing to Bama lately sucks if you are an Auburn fan but you can't fire a coach for not being able to beat the machine that Saban has going in Tuscaloosa.  Urban (and maybe Day) in Columbus are only a little off from that.  

Bo against Ohio State:

Bo ended up 11-9-1 but he was .500 until John Cooper came along.  

Michigan has lost seven straight to Ohio State but I don't think it is fair to look at that as Harbaugh/Hoke can't beat Ohio State.  I think that has a lot more to do with Ohio State being historically strong.  The last seven Ohio State teams finished:
No team is going to do very well against that.  

Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Season Thread
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on September 23, 2019, 04:22:05 PM
It was nice of Harbaugh to take the spotlight off of Scott Frost, and Nebraska's inability to live up to preseason expectations in the early going. 
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Season Thread
Post by: Cincydawg on September 23, 2019, 04:28:54 PM
I think, other than from me, expectations of Nebraska were relatively temperate as compared with those for Michigan.

I of course had the two of them in Indy with Nebraska winning.  Did I really think that?  Sort of, I was trying to be different, and that is one of my skills usually, trying.

Nebraska is 3-1 with a close loss at Colorado (who is 3-1 with a close loss at AFA) and a close win at Illinois.  They might be gelling at the right time, but probably their jello is about to be hammered into small pieces.

Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Season Thread
Post by: FearlessF on September 23, 2019, 04:48:06 PM
The last seven Ohio State teams finished:
  • 13-1
  • 12-2
  • 11-2
  • 12-1
  • 14-1
  • 12-2
  • 12-0
No team is going to do very well against that. 


you are correct, sir
but if Michigan would have won 3 of the 7 the records may have looked like this:

13-1
11-3
10-3
12-1
14-1
11-3
12-0
still very impressive, but this is what M fans would like
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Season Thread
Post by: 847badgerfan on September 23, 2019, 04:52:45 PM
  • UW has quietly assembled a fascinating defensive front. People are calling it a 2-4-5, and I think that's right. Superficially, it resembles a 4-3, but the inside guys like Loudermilk are SDE sized, and the  outside guys are LB sized (< 240lbs). That makes their success remarkable, because they looked around the country, said "nah, you don't need that many true DL up front" and it's actually working. I wonder if that'll catch on. I'm betting it will.
UW knows that there are never going to be any 5* DT's knocking on the door, and those 5* DT's run like 3-4* DE's do. So you get those 3-4* DE's, put them in the strength program, and turn them into DT's that can run. OLB is a little different, but the starters now were a QB (Baun) and a DE (IG-M) in HS. For a program like UW is, talent evaluation and development are the keys.

I have noticed on major thing under PC: The kids he's getting are much faster than what UW was used to getting.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Season Thread
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on September 23, 2019, 05:01:00 PM
you are correct, sir
but if Michigan would have won 3 of the 7 the records may have looked like this:

13-1
11-3
10-3
12-1
14-1
11-3
12-0
still very impressive, but this is what M fans would like
I get that, just pointing out that a rival is never a constant so just saying that Coach X beat the rival more than he lost to them while Coach Y lost to them more than he beat them can be highly misleading.  

Your example illustrates this point very well.  Suppose that Michigan was 3-4 against tOSU over the last seven years.  That is obviously less than .500 but 3-4 against those Ohio State teams wouldn't really be bad at all.  In fact it would be VERY good.  The three wins (your example) would have come against teams that finished a combined 32-9 while the four losses would have come against teams that finished a combined 51-3.  
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Season Thread
Post by: SuperMario on September 23, 2019, 05:04:53 PM
  

On the other hand we may want to just chill out as fans because we have this tendency to over react to games like this. When things look great there never really is good as they look for a college football team, and when things look bad they’re usually not as bad as they look.

Wisconsin is clearly fantastic, and maybe Michigan is working their way up to that slowly. Who knows?
I don't think it's necessarily one game, but this team under JH, not showing up for big games. They gave up 62 to the Buckeyes and looked hopeless in the bowl game. First opportunity to make a statement after a terrible showing against Army and they show up with no energy and quite frankly, awful play calling in key situations.  

If we're being honest, they weren't that impressive vs Middle Tennessee either. 

Lastly, when you're paid the type of money Harbaugh is paid, Nick Saban money, being completely embarrassed by Ohio State and then Wisconsin doesn't sit well. 
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Season Thread
Post by: MrNubbz on September 23, 2019, 05:24:37 PM
Bo won more than 9 games per season. He won 10 or more games 12 times in his 21 years at Michigan. He had a 4 year stretch where he only lost 3 games in 4 years. He went 41-3-1 from '71-'74.
. He was a model of consistency, won a ton of games, and he beat Ohio State more than he lost to Ohio State.
Well sort of he had a winning record vs Woody but a losing one vs Earl
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Season Thread
Post by: Cincydawg on September 23, 2019, 05:30:07 PM
Best case, realistically, I think, if UM gets it together:
Rutger - Win
Iowa -Win
@ Ill -Win
@ Penn State - Win
ND - Loss
@ UMd - Win
MSU - Win
@ IND - Win
OSU - Loss


9-3 obviously, disappointing, but hardly terrible, a Citrus Bowl maybe against Florida again?
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Season Thread
Post by: FearlessF on September 23, 2019, 05:32:52 PM
Your example illustrates this point very well.  Suppose that Michigan was 3-4 against tOSU over the last seven years.  That is obviously less than .500 but 3-4 against those Ohio State teams wouldn't really be bad at all.  In fact it would be VERY good.  The three wins (your example) would have come against teams that finished a combined 32-9 while the four losses would have come against teams that finished a combined 51-3. 
regardless of your rivals strength, 51-3 or even Bama good or mid 90's Huskers dominant

going 2-14 vs Ohio State in the last 16 games is going to have the fan base unhappy

maybe it would be considered a huge upset, but you better pull a couple upsets if that's the case
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Season Thread
Post by: MrNubbz on September 23, 2019, 05:37:21 PM
Best case, realistically, I think, if UM gets it together:
Rutger - Win
Iowa -Win
@ Ill -Win
@ Penn State - Win
ND - Loss
@ UMd - Win
MSU - Win
@ IND - Win
OSU - Loss


9-3 obviously, disappointing, but hardly terrible, a Citrus Bowl maybe against Florida again?
M has PSU in HV the Lions are the lean IMO,right now.Could be a brutal stretch - this is what JH is paid for to get things on the right path
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Season Thread
Post by: Cincydawg on September 23, 2019, 05:39:40 PM
2018/11/24  Alabama   52  -  Auburn    21 W  
2017/11/25  Alabama   14  -  Auburn    26 L 
2016/11/26  Alabama   30  -  Auburn    12 W 
2015/11/28  Alabama   29  -  Auburn    13 W 
2014/11/29  Alabama   55  -  Auburn    44 W 
2013/11/30  Alabama   28  -  Auburn    34 L 
2012/11/24  Alabama   49  -  Auburn     0 W 
2011/11/26  Alabama   42  -  Auburn    14 W 
2010/11/26  Alabama   27  -  Auburn    28 L 
2009/11/27  Alabama   26  -  Auburn    21 W 
2008/11/29  Alabama   36  -  Auburn     0 W 

2007/11/24  Alabama   10  -  Auburn    17 L 
2006/11/18  Alabama   15  -  Auburn    22 L 
2005/11/19  Alabama   18  -  Auburn    28 L 
2004/11/20  Alabama   13  -  Auburn    21 L 
2003/11/22  Alabama   23  -  Auburn    28 L 
2002/11/23  Alabama    7  -  Auburn    17 L


If this is a somewhat comparable rivalry, Bama is 8-3 over the last 11.  It changes prior to that obviously.  Going 3-8 has to be marginal, but then Bama has been Bama.


Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Season Thread
Post by: Cincydawg on September 23, 2019, 05:40:37 PM
Yeah, I'm not predicting a win in HV, I see it as a better shot than against the ND I saw Saturday and Ohio State.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Season Thread
Post by: Mdot21 on September 23, 2019, 05:41:35 PM
Lastly, when you're paid the type of money Harbaugh is paid, Nick Saban money, being completely embarrassed by Ohio State and then Wisconsin doesn't sit well.
Amen. He's paid WAY too much money for these kinds of results. I say fire him and offer Urban Meyer like $15 million a year. Call up Stephen Ross and ask for a blank check.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Season Thread
Post by: Cincydawg on September 23, 2019, 05:48:46 PM
Or, you could hire me, for say a million even a year, and probably get to 8-4.  Maybe 7-5.

I'd bet a LOT cheaper per win.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Season Thread
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on September 23, 2019, 05:59:55 PM
The salary is kind of a weird thing for the fanbase to be upset about. 

If they let him go and rehired Hoke because he could produce similar results at a fraction of the cost, I don't think that would be seen as a preferable scenario by Maize and Blue nation. 
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Season Thread
Post by: SuperMario on September 23, 2019, 06:05:12 PM
The salary is kind of a weird thing for the fanbase to be upset about.


That's like saying a CEO's salary is a weird thing for shareholders to be upset about if the CEO is the 2nd highest paid in the country and the company is continually under-performing.  
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Season Thread
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on September 23, 2019, 06:12:47 PM


A fan would be more comparable to a customer/consumer than a shareholder. 
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Season Thread
Post by: 847badgerfan on September 23, 2019, 06:15:13 PM

A fan would be more comparable to a customer/consumer than a shareholder.

Not for some. Many fans put a lot of money toward their favorite programs. Glad to no longer be one of those.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Season Thread
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on September 23, 2019, 06:17:00 PM

Are the tickets going to be cheaper? Or will the cost remain the same, regardless of the salary of the HC? 
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Season Thread
Post by: 847badgerfan on September 23, 2019, 06:24:56 PM
Tickets are going to be cheaper almost everywhere soon, as people start to not go.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Season Thread
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on September 23, 2019, 07:37:58 PM

If so, that would happen irrespective of the coach's salary. 
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Season Thread
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on September 23, 2019, 07:42:01 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8bGGhktAXpY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8bGGhktAXpY)
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Season Thread
Post by: MrNubbz on September 23, 2019, 08:01:38 PM
Brutus over on 11 Warriors
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Season Thread
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on September 23, 2019, 08:10:04 PM
Brutus over on 11 Warriors


Huh? 
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Season Thread
Post by: FearlessF on September 23, 2019, 09:03:12 PM
The salary is kind of a weird thing for the fanbase to be upset about.

If they let him go and rehired Hoke because he could produce similar results at a fraction of the cost, I don't think that would be seen as a preferable scenario by Maize and Blue nation.
I don't understand complaining about the high salary either

unless the buyout clause is too much to remove the coach such as Ferentz a few seasons ago, but that has seemed to work itself out
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Season Thread
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on September 23, 2019, 09:10:47 PM
I don't understand complaining about the high salary either

unless the buyout clause is too much to remove the coach such as Ferentz a few seasons ago, but that has seemed to work itself out
Yeah, I don't fault the frustration, just trying to figure out the angle here.

Sometimes on message boards we like to put our "AD hat" on, and analyze things from that perspective, I suppose.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Season Thread
Post by: FearlessF on September 23, 2019, 09:33:20 PM
I think it's just an easy target if the coach is highly paid

Huskers haven't had this issue until Frost
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Season Thread
Post by: Anonymous Coward on September 23, 2019, 09:49:18 PM
Got back home late last night. My thoughts:


  • For the first time, I found it delightful to have a wedding-football conflict
  • Redzone turnovers are known to have a negative effect
  • Taylor will be a NY finalist
  • Especially with Dwumfour injured, Michigan is severely undersized at tackle for Don Brown's 4-3. The 2017 and 2018 classes included Hudson, Paea, and Solomon at DT. Two of those guys left and one was an OL anyway. There's your problem. I'm thinking for program health it's more crucial than ever to NOT play Mazi and Hinton this year. Going forward, their redshirts seem essential.
  • UW has quietly assembled a fascinating defensive front. People are calling it a 2-4-5, and I think that's right. Superficially, it resembles a 4-3, but the inside guys like Loudermilk are SDE sized, and the  outside guys are LB sized (< 240lbs). That makes their success remarkable, because they looked around the country, said "nah, you don't need that many true DL up front" and it's actually working. I wonder if that'll catch on. I'm betting it will.
  • Shea Patterson has always had trouble with zone. But in this game, he struggled to read the field at all. Even when he had time. Here, Nico Collins beats his man onto the ground and gets 30-yards downfield before Shea throws it. There is no safety there. Shea still can't see him:
  • https://twitter.com/JDue51/status/1175770009949356032
  • eeewwwww


Another:

Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Season Thread
Post by: MrNubbz on September 23, 2019, 09:57:12 PM

Huh?
That was posted earlier on 11 Warriors - don't act like you don't know them
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Season Thread
Post by: FearlessF on September 23, 2019, 09:58:20 PM
who?
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Season Thread
Post by: MrNubbz on September 23, 2019, 09:59:50 PM
Bug Eaters Place
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Season Thread
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on September 23, 2019, 10:10:22 PM
That was posted earlier on 11 Warriors - don't act like you don't know them

I do know them and have an account, but I never post there because I don't particularly care for their format. 

The only exception is the lacrosse thread in the spring, where participation is low enough that I can stomach their awful format. 

I already knew about that guy from previous big Michigan losses. 
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Season Thread
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on September 23, 2019, 11:00:50 PM
Although MGoBlog is often entertaining....

"I feel like we are cursed. OSU gets a 5 star QB transfer and he looks like Cam Newton. We get a 5 star QB transfer and he looks like Steven Threat. OSU hires Urban Freaking Meyer and he wins a NC. We hire Jim and he looks like he’s one step away from smearing shit on himself and living in a dumpster. DAMN IT!"
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Season Thread
Post by: MrNubbz on September 24, 2019, 07:24:19 AM

I already knew about that guy from previous big Michigan losses.
It's very interesting the schadenfreude between Spartans/Wolverines - lots and lots of delicious smack hurled
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Season Thread
Post by: FearlessF on September 24, 2019, 09:05:32 AM
also interesting that Brutus and Nubbz have the majority of posts here lately
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Season Thread
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on September 24, 2019, 09:12:45 AM
Heh, okay. I'll go back to my corner. 
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Season Thread
Post by: 847badgerfan on September 24, 2019, 09:23:10 AM
While I wouldn't necessarily say that Michigan is at a crossroads (it isn't), I will say it seems to have an identity issue. Maybe it's just the fanbase - don't know - but it seems to come from the top on down.

The head coach likes to recruit high-ranking recruits, but is he recruiting to fit, or just to STARZ? He makes a lot of positive headlines, mostly in the offseason. He gets the STARZ, for sure, but where are the Mike Hart's and those types? Those kinds of guys were the backbone. Tough, dependable, loyal. It's not there right now.

So far this season, the headlines are not positive.

Ohio State is on another level, and it's looking more and more like that will be the case for the foreseeable future. It's up there with Bama, Clemson and Oklahoma. The Michigan fan base (and coaches??) seem to believe they should be on that same level. It's probably not happening.

Of course, I'm an outsider, so I don't fully understand the need to be like Ohio State. But, what I do understand is from the standpoint of my own school and how Minnie fans feel about catching up to UW. Yeah, they can win once in a while, but it's not going to be the norm any time soon.

Michigan's peers are Penn State, Michigan State, Wisconsin and Iowa. This is reality. Maybe just embrace this and accept that the elites can't be caught right now? Michigan can and will beat those teams, mostly on a regular basis. But it's not beating OSU with any regularity. It's just not.

Might be better for the soul to embrace this.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Season Thread
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on September 24, 2019, 11:36:16 AM
2018/11/24  Alabama   52  -  Auburn    21 W  
2017/11/25  Alabama   14  -  Auburn    26 L 
2016/11/26  Alabama   30  -  Auburn    12 W 
2015/11/28  Alabama   29  -  Auburn    13 W 
2014/11/29  Alabama   55  -  Auburn    44 W 
2013/11/30  Alabama   28  -  Auburn    34 L 
2012/11/24  Alabama   49  -  Auburn     0 W 
2011/11/26  Alabama   42  -  Auburn    14 W 
2010/11/26  Alabama   27  -  Auburn    28 L 
2009/11/27  Alabama   26  -  Auburn    21 W 
2008/11/29  Alabama   36  -  Auburn     0 W 
If this is a somewhat comparable rivalry, Bama is 8-3 over the last 11.  It changes prior to that obviously.  Going 3-8 has to be marginal, but then Bama has been Bama.
Exactly, nobody at Auburn should have the torches and pitchforks out because they are 3-8 in the last 11 against Bama.  Against those 11 Bama teams, 3-8 isn't bad.  Sure, you want to beat your rival all the time but when your rival is going through what is probably the greatest extended run in all of college football history you can't reasonably expect to go .500 against them.  
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Season Thread
Post by: FearlessF on September 24, 2019, 11:41:34 AM
agreed, but 3-8 is a heckuva lot better than 2-14 with what appears to be another loss coming in November
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Season Thread
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on September 24, 2019, 11:43:08 AM
Expectations and reality.
That is exactly the issue and here is a chart that illustrates it:
(https://i.imgur.com/exmhW1W.jpg)
This is the YTD change in B1G Power Rankings.  Michigan started out essentially tied with Ohio State for first place at about 1.65 and they are now down to sixth place at 5.73.  It would be worse if not for #7 Maryland's loss to Temple and #8 Nebraska's loss to Colorado.  

In my own rankings, I started Michigan out at #2.  I expected them to be a contender and probably to win the B1G-E.  Maybe they'll turn things around but at this point I expect them to be eliminated from the B1G-E race before Ohio State comes to Ann Arbor.  

What I have seen from Michigan so far this year, in all three games is well below what I expected.  
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Season Thread
Post by: Cincydawg on September 24, 2019, 12:03:25 PM
It is interesting to ponder whether some of this is cyclical, or a long term trend (Michigan and Tennessee).  It takes a while to really know obviously, and one very good coaching hire and flip the script (just as one bad one after Saban or Meyer or Sabo can do the same).

Giving up 62 in Columbus has to be considered, as well as that Wisconsin debacle.  Maybe Michigan has simply slipped, and now should be considered a program that will range from 8-5 to 10-3/11-2 at the top end.  (Tennessee has obviously slipped a lot further with no clear sign of getting back to even 8-5, which was a realistic expectation for them this season with their OOC slate.)

So, how do upper level recruits view this?  (I'd cross the Vols off my list, but Michigan might still be there.)

And who knows?  Maybe they right the ship this year and somehow end up 12-1 and a playoff team.  It's possible.  But not likely.  10-3 would not be a disaster for them.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Season Thread
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on September 24, 2019, 12:27:53 PM
(https://www.cfb51.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F%5Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fs3media.247sports.com%2FUploads%2FAssets%2F797%2F434%2F9434797.jpg%3Fwidth%3D600%26amp%3Bfit%3Dbounds&hash=18b446f93285c9db737d16c7ad51b106)

:67:
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Season Thread
Post by: FearlessF on September 24, 2019, 12:28:37 PM
blowout losses are merely one game

the fans and big boosters don't like it, but it's not time to panic

yes, blowouts can be a sign that the program is going the wrong way, but not always

when a very good team gets on a roll, they can make another very good team look bad and beat them by 20+ points

especially in this day of spread offenses and teams running up the score

Michigan may have had their wake-up call
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Season Thread
Post by: FearlessF on September 24, 2019, 12:30:11 PM
(https://www.cfb51.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F%5Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fs3media.247sports.com%2FUploads%2FAssets%2F797%2F434%2F9434797.jpg%3Fwidth%3D600%26amp%3Bfit%3Dbounds&hash=18b446f93285c9db737d16c7ad51b106)

:67:
I'm not seeing it here, Lloyd
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Season Thread
Post by: Cincydawg on September 24, 2019, 12:39:09 PM


when a very good team gets on a roll, they can make another very good team look bad and beat them by 20+ points

especially in this day of spread offenses and teams running up the score



I called it preseason when I noted Wisconsin's new air raid wide open fast paced passing offense.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Season Thread
Post by: MrNubbz on September 24, 2019, 01:21:19 PM
also interesting that Brutus and Nubbz have the majority of posts here lately
You're right,disgraceful and I know you've never poked your pot-stirrin' snout into the Big XII Board during Texas-Oklahoma week since UNL fled....I mean left :great:
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Season Thread
Post by: FearlessF on September 24, 2019, 01:34:59 PM
of course not
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Season Thread
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on September 24, 2019, 03:16:41 PM
It is interesting to ponder whether some of this is cyclical, or a long term trend (Michigan and Tennessee).  It takes a while to really know obviously, and one very good coaching hire and flip the script (just as one bad one after Saban or Meyer or Sabo can do the same).
Michigan has been essentially in this spot before.  It is usually underappreciated even by Michigan fans just how huge the Schembechler hire was.  From 1951-1968 Michigan won only one league title and no NC's.  They were, IMHO, on their way to becoming another Minnesota*.  Then they hired Bo and the rest, as they say, is history.  

Some perspective:
Michigan has been in this league for a total of 113 years (11 from 1896-1906 and another 102 from 1917-2018.  In those 113 seasons of competition in the league they have won 42 league titles.  That works out to almost two titles every five years.  In and of itself, that is impressive.  Within that time they have three major droughts:
If you exclude those three droughts, Michigan has been in the league for 68 years and won 40 league titles.  That works out to nearly two titles every three years.  

Minnesota*:  Most everyone here should get this reference but for anyone who doesn't, Minnesota won a slew of league and national titles in the early days of CFB.  In 1941 Minnesota won both a league and a national title.  That was their 16th league title (and seventh in nine years 1933-1941) and their sixth national title (second consecutive and fifth in eight years 1934-1941).  Post-war the Gophers never returned to their former glory.  In the 77 years from 1942-2018 they have won just two league titles (1960, 1967) and one national title (1960).  Interestingly, when Minnesota won the 1941 league title they led the league with 16 titles.  Michigan was second with 15, Illinois was third with eight and Chicago was fourth with seven.  From 1942-2018 Minnesota is tied with Indiana for last among teams that have been in the league the whole time with just two titles.  

Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Season Thread
Post by: Cincydawg on September 25, 2019, 09:50:10 AM
Yeah, FSU is another program that has slipped pretty hard and needs to get back or get forgotten.  I think it takes about 20 years of "mediocrity" for folks to "forget" a team was once a Blue Blood.  It spirals with recruiting first of course, the elites don't think to put you on their initial list at some point.  How many elite players think "Minnesota might be an option"?  Probably zero outside the state or legacy player.

Might Michigan/Tenn/FSU/Miami drift into that situation in a few years?  Possibly.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Season Thread
Post by: ELA on September 25, 2019, 10:50:02 AM
We discussed this a couple offseasons ago.  I guess none of the helmets have gone through an extended period of mediocrity, but it's almost like once college football became a national sport, instead of a regional one, in the 70s and 80s, it somehow locked in the helmet schools.

Florida State and Miami are an interesting case study, because they were there only at the end of that, so is their status more fluid?

What defines mediocrity?  Lack of conference championships?  Final ranking?  BCS/NY6 bowls?

Michigan last won a Big Ten title in 2004.  Since then they've had two AP Top 10 finishes (2006 and 2016), and 4 BCS/NY6 bowls.

Looking at some other helmet or potential helmet teams, and their worst 15 year stretch in the past 50 years (going back to Bo's hiring).  Obviously UM could still accomplish a bunch of things this season

Michigan - 2005-2019 (0 Big 10 titles, 0 division titles, 2 AP Top 10 finishes, 4 major bowls, 3 losing seasons)
Alabama - 1993-2007 (1 SEC title, 3 division titles, 3 AP Top 10 finishes, 2 major bowls, 3 losing seasons)
Oklahoma - 1987-2001 (2 Big 8/12 titles, 1 division title, 1 National Title, 3 AP Top 10 finishes, 3 major bowls, 3 losing seasons)
Texas - 1978-1992 (2 SWC titles, 3 AP Top 10 finishes, 3 major bowls, 4 losing seasons)
USC - 1987-2001 (5 Pac 10 titles, 2 AP Top 10 finishes, 5 major bowls, 2 losing seasons)
Ohio State - 1987-2001 (3 Big 10 titles, 3 AP Top 10 finishes, 3 major bowls, 1 losing season)
Notre Dame - 1996-2011 (1 AP Top 10 finish, 3 major bowls, 4 losing seasons)
Nebraska - 2004-2018 (0 Big 12/10 titles, 4 division titles, 0 AP Top 10 finishes, 1 major bowl, 5 losing seasons)
Tennessee - 2004-2018 (0 SEC titles, 2 division titles, 0 AP Top 10 finishes, 1 major bowl, 8 losing seasons)
Penn State - 2000-2014 (2 Big 10 titles, 1 division title, 3 AP Top 10 finishes, 2 major bowls, 4 losing seasons)
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Season Thread
Post by: 847badgerfan on September 25, 2019, 11:05:52 AM
Tennessee and Nebraska look to have fallen hardest, and they are still in the midst. Of the two, I think UNL is more likely to "turn it around", because, at least to me, UNL's division mates are more likely to go into a prolonged downturn than are Georgia and Florida. 

Who knows what will happen when King Barry hangs 'em up. Fitz, Kirk, etc.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Season Thread
Post by: Cincydawg on September 25, 2019, 11:08:27 AM
I view it in a series of steps for an elite level program:

1.  Bad coaching hire for four years, mediocre results, meaning 8-5 and 7-4 seasons.
2.  Bad coaching hire for four more years, even worse results.  Elite recruits no longer consider the program as elite.
3.  Bad coaching hire for four more years, trouble with recruiting, mediocre results, 

After 20 years or so, maybe, and no top ten finishes, not real "They are BACK" seasons like Texas has had, and they drop out of the top or near top.

The last time Tennessee finished in the top 20 was 2007.  The last time in the top 10 was 2001.  Their last two finishes were 4-8 and 5-7, and this year they had a shot at 8-5 or even 9-4, but obviously won't be anywhere near that.  Do elite recruits still put the Vols on an initial list of possibles?  I doubt it.

Their recruiting has been mostly in the teens, so "OK", but that could slip now and "that would be that".  They would turn into a program happy to make a bowl game and 9-4 would perhaps be their top end, something like Minnesota.  Maybe.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Season Thread
Post by: FearlessF on September 25, 2019, 11:11:18 AM
I'm not concerned that Michigan is going to fall from the helmet ranks anytime soon

the only team on that list that might be in trouble is Tennessee, but if the admin is supportive, they will keep trying until they get the right coach
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Season Thread
Post by: Cincydawg on September 25, 2019, 11:24:17 AM
Michigan is WAY ahead of the Vols, no doubt.  I'd have Tenn, FSU, and Miami on the "watch list", Michigan is simply failing to reach expectations while still having solid seasons.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Season Thread
Post by: FearlessF on September 25, 2019, 11:27:06 AM
FSU and Miami have too much recruiting talent in their backyard

losing support from the university for the football program would be the only thing to cause them to fail

and obviously, there's too much money to be gained by football
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Season Thread
Post by: 847badgerfan on September 25, 2019, 11:41:03 AM
FSU and Miami have too much recruiting talent in their backyard

losing support from the university for the football program would be the only thing to cause them to fail

and obviously, there's too much money to be gained by football
Miami has worked very hard in the last couple of decades to increase its academic stature (it has). I don't know if this is coincidence or not. I also think moving away from Orange Bowl Stadium really hurt too. They might be best off moving to Marlins Park, if they could make the dimensions work. 


Miami and FSU are not helmet schools.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Season Thread
Post by: FearlessF on September 25, 2019, 11:55:27 AM
Miami and FSU are not helmet schools.
but, possibly could be in another 50 years
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Season Thread
Post by: SFBadger96 on September 25, 2019, 12:01:03 PM
Who knows what will happen when King Barry hangs 'em up. Fitz, Kirk, etc.
One of the most remarkable things about the Wisconsin run is that it has succeeded under three coaches post Barry. Even Andersen had good teams (and left at the right time). I think (and hope) Chryst is a long-term solution, but one thing that is clear is that as long as it hold onto its core identity, Wisconsin is in good shape. More than anything else, that appears to be the Alvarez legacy.

The biggest danger--and Barry learned this the hard way--is that Wisconsin tries to fly too close to the sun that is college football's elite.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Season Thread
Post by: MrNubbz on September 25, 2019, 12:20:05 PM
FSU and Miami have too much recruiting talent in their backyard
This^^^^^,unless UCF becomes a power or Clemson/Bama/Gawja/FLA continually pinch the talent pool,they'll be back IMO
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Season Thread
Post by: Cincydawg on September 25, 2019, 12:49:32 PM
Miami and FSU are "up there somewhere" schools with some helmet value that has been an asset in recruiting in the past.

Imagine some 4+ or 5 star kid in say Kansas considering possible programs.  He gets a lot of mail.  How much does he open?  If Texas calls, he opens the letter, duh.

USC?  Probably.  Minnesota?  Probably not, unless it's the only one of the day.  Minny just doesn't get his juices flowing.

FSU and Miami?  Obviously in 2000 that would be exciting, but today?  Kind of meh.

There is a lot of talent in Florida obviously, but it gets split amongst several programs, unlike say Ohio which has one program to watch.

Michigan has a lower population that does Georgia now.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Season Thread
Post by: FearlessF on September 25, 2019, 12:57:35 PM
This^^^^^,unless UCF becomes a power or Clemson/Bama/Gawja/FLA continually pinch the talent pool,they'll be back IMO
regardless what other programs do or don't, if FSU and or Miami get the right guy in charge with the proper support of the University, they will get the talent and win big
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Season Thread
Post by: FearlessF on September 25, 2019, 12:59:12 PM
most kids from Kansas are going to open something from Florida, they have beaches

that's how UCF and South Florida got going
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Season Thread
Post by: Cincydawg on September 25, 2019, 01:08:13 PM
I'm talking elite level players, guys focused on playing on Sunday, not guys thinking about beaches.

I ASSUME these players with few exceptions evaluate their options based on where they can get to the NFL fastest and bestest.

Clemson is not a markedly attractive region (it's not awful) but we see a lot of elite players now going there.  This is a reverse example.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Season Thread
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on September 25, 2019, 04:36:12 PM
We discussed this a couple offseasons ago.  I guess none of the helmets have gone through an extended period of mediocrity, but it's almost like once college football became a national sport, instead of a regional one, in the 70s and 80s, it somehow locked in the helmet schools.
Not this again, LoL.  

I continue to believe that nothing is permanent so I disagree with this idea, usually advanced by @Anonymous Coward (https://www.cfb51.com/index.php?action=profile;u=1513) , that the "Helmet" teams were locked-in circa the mid 1970's and can never change.  

That said, I think that it takes a LOT less to MAINTAIN helmet status than it takes to OBTAIN helmet status.  Basically, my view is that all a team needs to do to maintain helmet status is to be good enough to be talked about.  A helmet doesn't actually have to win the big games to maintain their status they just have to be good enough to be involved in big games.  Looking at Michigan specifically:

All-in-all, in nearly half of the last 15 seasons Michigan has been a name that any CFB fan would have at least considered once or twice during the season.  That is more than enough to maintain helmet status.  

NOTE:  As I noted above, I believe that helmet status is MUCH harder to get than it is to keep.  As I tried to explain above, teams that already have helmet status don't need to WIN big games to keep helmet status, they just need to get into big games.  For a non-helmet to obtain helmet status they need to WIN big games, conference titles, and national championships and they need to do it consistently.  For example, if somehow Michigan ends up playing Minnesota in the B1GCG this year, the result of the game will have no bearing on Michigan's helmet status.  Michigan will have already maintained their helmet status simply by getting into a big game.  The result would be extremely important to Minnesota's potential helmet status because Minnesota can't achieve helmet status without big wins.  

Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Season Thread
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on September 25, 2019, 04:42:38 PM
Looking at some other helmet or potential helmet teams, and their worst 15 year stretch in the past 50 years (going back to Bo's hiring).  Obviously UM could still accomplish a bunch of things this season

Michigan - 2005-2019 (0 Big 10 titles, 0 division titles, 2 AP Top 10 finishes, 4 major bowls, 3 losing seasons)
Alabama - 1993-2007 (1 SEC title, 3 division titles, 3 AP Top 10 finishes, 2 major bowls, 3 losing seasons)
Oklahoma - 1987-2001 (2 Big 8/12 titles, 1 division title, 1 National Title, 3 AP Top 10 finishes, 3 major bowls, 3 losing seasons)
Texas - 1978-1992 (2 SWC titles, 3 AP Top 10 finishes, 3 major bowls, 4 losing seasons)
USC - 1987-2001 (5 Pac 10 titles, 2 AP Top 10 finishes, 5 major bowls, 2 losing seasons)
Ohio State - 1987-2001 (3 Big 10 titles, 3 AP Top 10 finishes, 3 major bowls, 1 losing season)
Notre Dame - 1996-2011 (1 AP Top 10 finish, 3 major bowls, 4 losing seasons)
Nebraska - 2004-2018 (0 Big 12/10 titles, 4 division titles, 0 AP Top 10 finishes, 1 major bowl, 5 losing seasons)
Tennessee - 2004-2018 (0 SEC titles, 2 division titles, 0 AP Top 10 finishes, 1 major bowl, 8 losing seasons)
Penn State - 2000-2014 (2 Big 10 titles, 1 division title, 3 AP Top 10 finishes, 2 major bowls, 4 losing seasons)
Tennessee really stood out to me on this list.  They are last or close to it on every measure that you used:

I've always thought that the biggest problem for Tennessee has been that a lot of their neighbors got better which made for tougher competition for recruits.  Clemson is a historic high, UGA is better than their long-term average, Bama is Bama, etc.  

Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Season Thread
Post by: Cincydawg on September 26, 2019, 08:13:10 AM
It's trite to note it, but IF a program makes 4-5 bad coaching hires in a row .... it can kill it's helmetosity.  The first couple start an ebb and then recruiting gets tougher for the last two guys and then losing seasons and inept performances boost them near the edge of the CFB map.

Anyone have data on Minnesota after their great run?  Did they slowly fade or was it more of a collapse?
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Season Thread
Post by: 847badgerfan on September 26, 2019, 08:28:29 AM
Minnesota is 263-324-5 since they won their last (shared) Big Ten title in 1967. Prior to that, their record was 431-194-36, with 18 Big Ten championships and 7 MNC's. 

But, if you go back to 1941, Minnesota had 16 Big Ten championships and 6 MNC's. It's record was 306-94-25.

From 1942 through 1967 the record was 125-103-11, with 2 Big Ten championships and 1 MNC.

So, which is the inflection point? 1941, or 1967?
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Season Thread
Post by: Cincydawg on September 26, 2019, 09:29:43 AM
As we are discussing how fast a near Blue Blood can decline, it would be 1967.

I imagine recruiting was far far different in 1967 (duh) and image probably was less of a factor then (arguably) for elite recruits.  I think back then coaches recruited more on what their fans told them about certain players around the state and region.  ND recruited nationally of course, maybe USC, probably nobody else (??).



Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Season Thread
Post by: MrNubbz on September 26, 2019, 09:33:21 AM
Ya with instant messaging,cell phones,texting,24/7mega media and information everywhere,recruiting no doubt is much harder than even 2 decades ago
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Season Thread
Post by: Cincydawg on September 26, 2019, 09:46:37 AM
The Gophers were pretty mediocre for much of the 50s and 60s anyway.

https://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/schools/minnesota/index.html (https://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/schools/minnesota/index.html)

In 1960, they were voted Number 1 because the Rose Bowl loss didn't count and they were 8-2.

So, the transition probably is closer to 1941, with a few up seasons thereafter.  I'm not sure we can discern much from pre1941 results relevant today.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Season Thread
Post by: Cincydawg on September 26, 2019, 09:58:12 AM
Ole Miss is probably a better example.  A strong run in the early 60s under Vaught, but then only one top ten finish since 1969.  Vaught retired and his replacements were not nearly as successful.  

https://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/schools/mississippi/ (https://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/schools/mississippi/)

Were they a Blue Blood?  No, but they were consistently ranked up there preseason.  Coaching.

It's "funny" they had this recruiting flurry not that long ago that raised eye brows, and then slam.

Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Season Thread
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on September 26, 2019, 10:30:13 AM
Miami has worked very hard in the last couple of decades to increase its academic stature (it has). I don't know if this is coincidence or not. I also think moving away from Orange Bowl Stadium really hurt too. They might be best off moving to Marlins Park, if they could make the dimensions work.

Miami and FSU are not helmet schools.
I get the impression that part of the issue for Miami is that there is very little alumni support for the program for multiple reasons including:

Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Season Thread
Post by: Cincydawg on September 26, 2019, 10:39:18 AM
The off campus stadium is a large issue I think, but larger is their mediocre record of late.

FSU should be "back" faster than Miami, but it hinges on coaching.  Duh.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Season Thread
Post by: medinabuckeye1 on September 26, 2019, 10:49:05 AM
Anyone have data on Minnesota after their great run?  Did they slowly fade or was it more of a collapse?

Minnesota is 263-324-5 since they won their last (shared) Big Ten title in 1967. Prior to that, their record was 431-194-36, with 18 Big Ten championships and 7 MNC's.

But, if you go back to 1941, Minnesota had 16 Big Ten championships and 6 MNC's. It's record was 306-94-25.

From 1942 through 1967 the record was 125-103-11, with 2 Big Ten championships and 1 MNC.

So, which is the inflection point? 1941, or 1967?

The Gophers were pretty mediocre for much of the 50s and 60s anyway.
https://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/schools/minnesota/index.html (https://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/schools/minnesota/index.html)
In 1960, they were voted Number 1 because the Rose Bowl loss didn't count and they were 8-2.

So, the transition probably is closer to 1941, with a few up seasons thereafter.  I'm not sure we can discern much from pre1941 results relevant today.
I was going to basically say what Badge already said.  I'll expand on it a little bit.  

The major inflection point is definitely WWII.  When they won the 1941 NC is was their second in a row and fifth in eight years.  NC's are a little bit fluky but using league titles as the gauge, the Gophers' league title in 1941 was their:

The Gophers were a Charter Member of the league so they began competing in 1896.  In the 46 seasons from 1896-1941 the Gophers won 16 titles.  That is a little better than one every three years.  From 1942-1967 they won two in two in 26 years that isn't nearly as good.  Since then, obviously, they have none in 51 years which is even worse.  

1960 and 1967 were both split titles.  Minnesota shared the 1960 title with Iowa and they shared the 1967 title with Indiana and Purdue.  They also had an OOC loss both years.  In 1960 they lost to Washington in the Rose Bowl and in 1967 they lost 7-0 to the Cornhuskers in Lincoln.  Also note that the Nebraska team that Minnesota lost to in 1967 was not part of Devaney/Osborne's glory days of Husker football.  That team was 6-4 with losses to Kansas, Colorado, Mizzou, and Oklahoma.  

Up through 1941 it was not unusual for Minnesota to go undefeated.  From 1942 through 2018 their best ever seasons ended up 8-2 (1960, 61, 67), 10-3 (2003), and 9-4 (2016).  In the last 77 years they best they have ever finished is two losses.  They finished undefeated back-to-back the two years prior to that.  
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Season Thread
Post by: Cincydawg on September 26, 2019, 10:53:58 AM
Vis a vis Michigan, I doubt they fall as far as Tennessee has.  They won't lose much luster by 10-3 seasons.  They'd have to be 7-6, 8-5, 4-8, ... over 20 years to really fall out of favor I think.

Minny and Ole Miss are not good examples I think, OM a bit better.  But the Vols could be one more bad coach away from dropping from near Blue Blood to mediocre.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Season Thread
Post by: ELA on September 26, 2019, 11:20:24 AM
Vis a vis Michigan, I doubt they fall as far as Tennessee has.  They won't lose much luster by 10-3 seasons.  They'd have to be 7-6, 8-5, 4-8, ... over 20 years to really fall out of favor I think.

Minny and Ole Miss are not good examples I think, OM a bit better.  But the Vols could be one more bad coach away from dropping from near Blue Blood to mediocre.
Yeah, I included Tennessee and Penn State for comparison purposes, but I've already said I don't think they are.

I've said 7 for sure, and I'm willing to debate Nebraska.

ND, Michigan, OSU, Texas, Oklahoma, Alabama, USC

I posted the worst 15 from all of those.

Aside from the 3 Florida schools, who would obviously have the best, I wonder what the BEST 15 year stretches from any school not among those 10 in the past 50 years.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Season Thread
Post by: Cincydawg on September 26, 2019, 12:10:46 PM
While I usually see 8 "Blue Bloods", the scale is analog, whoever is 9th is still a program with a lot of helmetosity.

I'm happy to list them by number of wins or cumulative rankings or whatever floats your boat.  The Vols could be near that point where a team loses considerable helmetosity and thus recruiting potential.  Michigan might dim just a bit, but not much.  

I'd have to think Boise State found recruiting a lot easier when they made noise.  

The Vols are looking at three losing seasons in a row.  They were the second to last team never to have had 8 losses.  They were 0-8 in conference two years ago.  They lost to GaState for crying out loud.  FSU and Miami have not done THAT.  I guess Michigan did have that one loss to a battery team a while back.

Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Season Thread
Post by: FearlessF on September 26, 2019, 01:57:29 PM
900 wins has got to count for a helmet at least for the next year or two
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Season Thread
Post by: 847badgerfan on September 26, 2019, 02:23:03 PM
Aside from the 3 Florida schools, who would obviously have the best, I wonder what the BEST 15 year stretches from any school not among those 10 in the past 50 years.
Probably Clemson? I just looked at the 15 years prior to this year. Really wish we had ftbobs to weigh in.

RankTeam nameWinning
 Percentage
Games
 Won
Games
 Lost
Games
 Tied
Games
 Played

1Boise State (http://football.stassen.com/cgi-bin/records/fetch-team.pl?team=Boise_State)0.83249164330197
2Ohio State (http://football.stassen.com/cgi-bin/records/fetch-team.pl?team=Ohio_State)0.83243154310185
3Alabama (http://football.stassen.com/cgi-bin/records/fetch-team.pl?team=Alabama)0.80328147360183
4Oklahoma (http://football.stassen.com/cgi-bin/records/fetch-team.pl?team=Oklahoma)0.79500159410200
5Louisiana State (http://football.stassen.com/cgi-bin/records/fetch-team.pl?team=Louisiana_State)0.76289148460194
6Appalachian State (http://football.stassen.com/cgi-bin/records/fetch-team.pl?team=Appalachian_State)0.750004816064
7Wisconsin (http://football.stassen.com/cgi-bin/records/fetch-team.pl?team=Wisconsin)0.74874149500199
8Clemson (http://football.stassen.com/cgi-bin/records/fetch-team.pl?team=Clemson)0.74627150510201
9Georgia (http://football.stassen.com/cgi-bin/records/fetch-team.pl?team=Georgia)0.73367146530199
10Texas Christian (http://football.stassen.com/cgi-bin/records/fetch-team.pl?team=Texas_Christian)0.72917140520192

11Southern Cal (http://football.stassen.com/cgi-bin/records/fetch-team.pl?team=Southern_Cal)0.72527132500182
12Oregon (http://football.stassen.com/cgi-bin/records/fetch-team.pl?team=Oregon)0.72165140540194
13Florida (http://football.stassen.com/cgi-bin/records/fetch-team.pl?team=Florida)0.69430134590193
14Virginia Tech (http://football.stassen.com/cgi-bin/records/fetch-team.pl?team=Virginia_Tech)0.69000138620200
15Penn State (http://football.stassen.com/cgi-bin/records/fetch-team.pl?team=Penn_State)0.68586131600191
16Texas (http://football.stassen.com/cgi-bin/records/fetch-team.pl?team=Texas)0.68394132610193
17Utah (http://football.stassen.com/cgi-bin/records/fetch-team.pl?team=Utah)0.68229131610192
18Auburn (http://football.stassen.com/cgi-bin/records/fetch-team.pl?team=Auburn)0.68205133620195
19Florida State (http://football.stassen.com/cgi-bin/records/fetch-team.pl?team=Florida_State)0.67568125600185
20West Virginia (http://football.stassen.com/cgi-bin/records/fetch-team.pl?team=West_Virginia)0.67539129620191

21Oklahoma State (http://football.stassen.com/cgi-bin/records/fetch-team.pl?team=Oklahoma_State)0.66667128640192
22Brigham Young (http://football.stassen.com/cgi-bin/records/fetch-team.pl?team=Brigham_Young)0.64583124680192
23Notre Dame (http://football.stassen.com/cgi-bin/records/fetch-team.pl?team=Notre_Dame)0.64211122680190
24Louisville (http://football.stassen.com/cgi-bin/records/fetch-team.pl?team=Louisville)0.63492120690189
25tMichigan (http://football.stassen.com/cgi-bin/records/fetch-team.pl?team=Michigan)0.63158120700190
25tCincinnati (http://football.stassen.com/cgi-bin/records/fetch-team.pl?team=Cincinnati)0.63158120700190
27Navy (http://football.stassen.com/cgi-bin/records/fetch-team.pl?team=Navy)0.62887122720194
28Stanford (http://football.stassen.com/cgi-bin/records/fetch-team.pl?team=Stanford)0.62827120710191
29tMichigan State (http://football.stassen.com/cgi-bin/records/fetch-team.pl?team=Michigan_State)0.62694121720193
29tHouston (http://football.stassen.com/cgi-bin/records/fetch-team.pl?team=Houston)0.62694121720193

Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Season Thread
Post by: CWSooner on September 26, 2019, 04:40:25 PM
Minnesota is 263-324-5 since they won their last (shared) Big Ten title in 1967. Prior to that, their record was 431-194-36, with 18 Big Ten championships and 7 MNC's.

But, if you go back to 1941, Minnesota had 16 Big Ten championships and 6 MNC's. It's record was 306-94-25.

From 1942 through 1967 the record was 125-103-11, with 2 Big Ten championships and 1 MNC.

So, which is the inflection point? 1941, or 1967?
Minnesota was not a helmet in 1967.  The question is when after 1941 that status went away.

Michigan today is in a better place than Minnesota was in 1967.

EDIT: I see that there has been much more thorough discussion of this issue since Badge's post quoted above.  But I'll stick to what I said, and in answer to Badge's question about the inflection point, I think it was 1941.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Season Thread
Post by: Brutus Buckeye on September 27, 2019, 10:47:01 AM


There's two kinds of Helmets. The ones that can still compete for a NC, and the ones that are essentially a museum. 

Not sure which side of the divide Notre Dame is on. Mostly a museum, but they do make a run from time to time that ultimately "falls short" (to put it mildly). 
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Season Thread
Post by: Cincydawg on September 27, 2019, 11:02:00 AM
I think of a helmet as a program that gets attention from recruits, a lot of excitement and attention, these days.

An elite recruit gets a letter from Alabama, WOW.  He gets another letter from Virginia, and Minnesota, and Ohio State, WOW.

I think a letter from ND is at least a smaller WOW, a wow in effect.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Season Thread
Post by: ELA on September 27, 2019, 12:46:00 PM

There's two kinds of Helmets. The ones that can still compete for a NC, and the ones that are essentially a museum.

Not sure which side of the divide Notre Dame is on. Mostly a museum, but they do make a run from time to time that ultimately "falls short" (to put it mildly).
Some UM writer said that UM football right now is just a helmet a stadium and a song.

I agree, but that's what being a helmet is.  You are still something, even when you aren't something.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Season Thread
Post by: ELA on October 08, 2019, 12:55:00 PM
Not sure if anyone else listens to the Shutdown Fullcast, which is the podcast remnants of EDSBS, and I know team radio broadcasts are pretty niche, but their episode this week discussing just how bad Brandstatter/Dierdorf are is hilarious.  It's a shame they let Frank Beckman go.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Season Thread
Post by: Mdot21 on October 09, 2019, 11:08:47 PM
Some UM writer said that UM football right now is just a helmet a stadium and a song.

I agree, but that's what being a helmet is.  You are still something, even when you aren't something.
yup. kinda like the Cowboys in the NFL. One of the most talked about and hyped teams if not the most in the NFL because of the fan base, helmet, and past history- yet they haven't won jacksheeet since '95.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Season Thread
Post by: 847badgerfan on October 23, 2019, 07:06:05 AM
Anything truly going on with this?

https://footballscoop.com/news/sources-jim-harbaugh-eyeing-exit-strategy/
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Season Thread
Post by: MaximumSam on October 23, 2019, 07:17:38 AM
Anything truly going on with this?

https://footballscoop.com/news/sources-jim-harbaugh-eyeing-exit-strategy/

Who knows, though I will say I see Michigan fans openly talking about life after Harbaugh, and who could potentially be the next coach.  Right now, Matt Rhule and PJ Fleck seem like the biggest poachable coaches.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Season Thread
Post by: Temp430 on October 23, 2019, 07:32:32 AM
"total crap"

https://247sports.com/college/michigan/Article/Jim-Harbaugh-refutes-NFL-return-with-letter-to-recruits-137392063/?utm_source=247Sports%20Newsletter&utm_medium=Newsletter&utm_campaign=191023_090335_Michigan%20Wolverines&utm_content=Link&liveconnect=AA-BF-A3-17-39-70-37-CB-33-1D-25-B2-40-8C-22-E3191023_090335MichiganWolverines (https://247sports.com/college/michigan/Article/Jim-Harbaugh-refutes-NFL-return-with-letter-to-recruits-137392063/?utm_source=247Sports)

Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Season Thread
Post by: ELA on October 24, 2019, 04:10:16 PM
"total crap"

https://247sports.com/college/michigan/Article/Jim-Harbaugh-refutes-NFL-return-with-letter-to-recruits-137392063/?utm_source=247Sports%20Newsletter&utm_medium=Newsletter&utm_campaign=191023_090335_Michigan%20Wolverines&utm_content=Link&liveconnect=AA-BF-A3-17-39-70-37-CB-33-1D-25-B2-40-8C-22-E3191023_090335MichiganWolverines (https://247sports.com/college/michigan/Article/Jim-Harbaugh-refutes-NFL-return-with-letter-to-recruits-137392063/?utm_source=247Sports)


One UM writer speculated that what is true is that Jim's people leaked it, but what isn't true is that he is entertaining it.  But they leaked it so he could specifically address that he wasn't leaving.
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Season Thread
Post by: CWSooner on October 24, 2019, 05:10:03 PM
Cavalcade of Whimsy: You Want Jim Harbaugh Fired? And Then Your Plan Is ...?
By: Pete Fiutak (https://collegefootballnews.com/author/petefiutak) | October 22, 2019 4:13 am



Sorry if this column sucks, it’s not my fault …
The fury, speed, and power of the column all become one big prisoner of inertia that soon goes oh so very, very wrong …

Quote
(https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/1138249880718249984/JhKp3Pj3_normal.jpg) (https://twitter.com/Kyle__Boone)
 (https://twitter.com/Kyle__Boone)Kyle Boone
@Kyle__Boone
 (https://twitter.com/Kyle__Boone)

Wow, the Sooner Schooner took a hard fall.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/ext_tw_video_thumb/1185605509514182656/pu/img/skjx1E0z4bRodzaS?format=jpg&name=small) (https://twitter.com/Kyle__Boone/status/1185605532218019842)
23K (https://twitter.com/intent/like?tweet_id=1185605532218019842) 12:16 PM - Oct 19, 2019 (https://twitter.com/Kyle__Boone/status/1185605532218019842)



8,030 people are talking about this

(https://twitter.com/Kyle__Boone/status/1185605532218019842)
But the silence on this from the twittersphere was deafening during the second half …



What if I told you that a current giant of a head coach went 40-21 in his first 4.5 years at his national championship-caliber football school?
What if I told you that this guy had a 6-7 season in that run, didn’t crack the top 20 in either poll until Year Five, and whose team at the end of Year Four gave up 70 points in a total annihilation of a big bowl game?
What if I told you that after all of that, Dabo Swinney turned out to be pretty good at this coaching thing at Clemson?
After 4.5 years at Michigan, Jim Harbaugh just lost another big game.
Forget that Penn State was a nine-point favorite at home, and forget that the Wolverines were a Ronnie Bell dropped pass away from tying it up after a gutsy comeback. Jim Harbaugh lost another big game, and Twitter wasn’t happy about it.
For the record, I don’t like Michigan. Actually, it’s more like I don’t care about Michigan, other than it was the first place my horrible fake ID worked in bars. I’m not some fan, and I don’t owe the guy money or anything – at least I don’t think I do – but even after this loss, Harbaugh really is doing a much, much better job than he’s being given credit for.
Out of all the coaches at their current programs since or before 2015 – when Harbaugh took over at Michigan – only Nick, Dabo, Wisconsin’s Paul Chryst and Boise State’s Bryan Harsin have a better winning percentage.
But Harbaugh can’t win the big one, right? Last year’s team whacked a 9-4 Penn State team 42-7, beat the eventual Big Ten West champ Northwestern in Evanston, and destroyed a flawed-but-decent Wisconsin team by 25. He won the game at Michigan State, too, but no one remembers or cares about any of that, because the guy can’t beat Ohio State and his teams always whiff when they have a shot at getting into the national championship picture.
You have to win a whole lot of the other games, though, to make the big ones matter.
Has a Harbaugh Michigan team lost to Illinois the week before an epic showdown against Ohio State, like Wisconsin just did when it had the whole world there for the taking? No.
Has a Harbaugh Michigan team’s doors been blown off by a mediocre Purdue team last year or an Iowa squad the year before, like Ohio State’s did when it had the talent in place in both seasons to win a national championship? No.
Has a Harbaugh Michigan team lost to a South Carolina, like Georgia did this year? More than that, has he lost like Tennessee continues to do? Has Scott Frost been able to bring the Nebraska program back from the dead in a year and a half? How’s that UCLA rebuild coming along under Chip Kelly? Should we be making plans now for Miami’s College Football Playoff parade? Do you have your rooms booked yet for Texas A&M’s trip to the SEC Championship?
Harbaugh has lost 16 games so far, and assuming Penn State and Wisconsin will be double-digit victory programs this season, only one of those defeats – the 14-13 thriller at Iowa in 2016 – was to a team that didn’t finish with at least ten wins.
It’s so hard to win 43 college football games in 4.5 seasons no matter where you’re at. So to all the people on social media who lashed out, and to all of the Harbaugh haters, and to all of those who want to see him gone and don’t appreciate what he’s been able to do …
You’re not totally wrong.
I might be the President of the Harbaugh Apologists Club, but if you believe that Michigan is MICHIGAN and should be beating Ohio State, winning Big Ten titles, and going to the College Football Playoff on a regular basis … yeah. We all do, and you’ve got a more than valid point considering there’s recent precedent for a smoothly upgraded transfer of power.
Mark Richt – feel better, Coach – was able to get Georgia painfully close to greatness, but couldn’t quite get over the hump. In stepped Kirby Smart, and kaboom.
It could be argued that Bob Stoops hit a ceiling – a very, very high one – at Oklahoma, and Lincoln Riley has been able to somehow make the program even more amazing.
David Shaw was able to take what Harbaugh created at Stanford and go to a whole other level, with three Pac-12 titles and two Rose Bowl victories.
But in the be-careful-what-you-wish-for department, Nebraska launched Bo Pelini after he won nine games or more in seven straight seasons and went to four conference championships. He “couldn’t win the big games,” got canned, and the program has gone 27-30 since then.
But this isn’t just some guy we’re talking about. This isn’t Richt or Stoops, who were both nearing the end of their respective high-end coaching lines. Yeah, you’d take Riley in a heartbeat, and Shaw has been incredible up until the last two seasons, but this is the Michigan Man coaching Michigan.
(BTW, speaking of that, different time and MUCH different era in the way the world worked, but Bo Schembechler didn’t win his first bowl game until his 12th season at Michigan. But I digress.)
You don’t just replace Harbaugh with some rising coach who’s doing a decent job overachieving at some other gig, and you don’t take a flier on some hot assistant prospect.
Harbaugh deniers, you can be disappointed, but are you venting just to vent, or do you really want Jim Harbaugh gone after winning 73% of his games?
You got a plan, son?
With all of that said, you know what’s coming in full-force this week.
Either 1) Michigan loses to Notre Dame, and the Harbaugh backlash will thunder down on America and beyond, or 2) Michigan beats Notre Dame, and it will be blown off until he beats Ohio State. . . .
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Season Thread
Post by: ELA on November 11, 2019, 04:32:50 PM
Evans reinstated for 2020

https://www.espn.com/college-football/story/_/id/28059115/michigan-reinstate-rb-chris-evans-2020-season (https://www.espn.com/college-football/story/_/id/28059115/michigan-reinstate-rb-chris-evans-2020-season)
Title: Re: 2019 Michigan Season Thread
Post by: Mdot21 on November 11, 2019, 07:34:09 PM
Evans reinstated for 2020

https://www.espn.com/college-football/story/_/id/28059115/michigan-reinstate-rb-chris-evans-2020-season (https://www.espn.com/college-football/story/_/id/28059115/michigan-reinstate-rb-chris-evans-2020-season)
Wow, that's some big news. RS Frosh Haskins and true frosh Charbonnet are really developing as a very nice 1-2 power punch at RB right now. Both these guys look like legit RB's to me. Something Michigan has lacked for a long time. Evans coming back gives them more scheme versatility with his ability as a pass-catcher. Evans is more than capable of even lining up in the slot at WR.

Nice surprise and Evans is a really good player, but as long as Harbaugh is in charge though, the offense will suck imo.