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Topic: The Porch, y'all. pull up a seat and kick back.

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utee94

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Re: The Porch, y'all. pull up a seat and kick back.
« Reply #3892 on: August 22, 2022, 08:54:17 AM »
It's not officially condoned by governments as far as I know, but there are still areas that practice it and don't prosecute for it.  Places in Africa and in the Middle East.  Dubai especially comes to mind.  


Gigem

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Re: The Porch, y'all. pull up a seat and kick back.
« Reply #3893 on: August 22, 2022, 09:00:50 AM »
I don't really know the history, but wasn't it legal in England and parts of Europe until the 1600-1700's?  And weren't the Dutch one of the major slave trading nations and were largely responsible for bringing slavery to the new world?  

I also wonder if the South had won how long it would have been legal.  Perhaps maybe a few more years, like into the 1880's, or do you think it would have existed well into the 1900's?  

Cincydawg

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Re: The Porch, y'all. pull up a seat and kick back.
« Reply #3894 on: August 22, 2022, 09:08:00 AM »
The slave trade was widely practiced among European countries into the1800s, slavery itself was far less prevalent.  I read once that the cotton gin was in part responsible for the need for vast numbers of slaves in the South.  Before the gin, many slaves were more akin to "house slaves" who did laundry and cooking etc.

My GUESS is slavery would have persisted in the South for some decades.  The Planter Class controlled most everything and they needed it.  I think over time some gradual measures might have come about to "soften" somewhat its appearance, like perhaps they would get paid a pittance, being treated somewhat more like mill workers in mill towns.  In theory, one could eliminate the "property" aspect in the Code and still have slaves in any real aspect of the term.  Mill and mine workers had it pretty hard too back in the day.

CWS no doubt has a better take, or can amplify on this topic.

CWSooner

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Re: The Porch, y'all. pull up a seat and kick back.
« Reply #3895 on: August 22, 2022, 11:26:29 AM »
Lincoln's views on race evolved. He was always opposed to slavery and he always viewed black people as human beings. He probably thought that they were an inferior sort of human being. He also was well aware of the severe limits on how far white people in Illinois could be brought to go in opposing slavery. He long believed that white people would not allow black people to live among them with equal protection of the laws. And he well understood that popular prejudices, whether justified or not, had to be taken into account by men in politics.

Illinois and Indiana were the two most racist northern states. The southern 40% or so of each state was populated by "Butternuts"--dirt-poor southerners who had moved north for economic opportunity. They didn't necessarily advocate slavery, but the definitely saw people of African descent to be inferior beings and were determined that the laws must keep things that way. Lincoln lived in Illinois, and he was a politician, so he felt compelled had to trim his public remarks on race. He never retreated from his anti-slavery position, but he definitely soft-pedaled ideas of racial equality.

This shows up in the 1858 debates with Stephen Douglas, especially the ones in the southern part of Illinois. Douglas repeatedly charged Lincoln with wanting to marry a black woman. And Douglas did not use the term "Negro." His rhetoric was as ugly as it could get, and the crowds in Jonesboro, Alton, and Charleston ate that up. Interestingly, Lincoln was born in slave-state Kentucky and grew up in southern Indiana and southern Illinois. OTOH, Douglas (who was born "Douglass," but dropped the 2nd "s" after Frederick Douglass published his first autobiography) was born in Vermont, moved to New York as a teenager, and drifted west until he wound up in Chicago, which became his political base. So the debates featured Lincoln, the southern Illinoisan vs. Douglas, the man from Chicago.

How black Northerners rallied to fight in the Army during the Civil War--despite being paid less and treated like crap--opened Lincoln's eyes. By the end of his life, he saw full citizenship and voting rights as the only just policies and said as much. In his last public speech, John Wilkes Booth was in the crowd. He supposedly said to his co-conspirator Lewis Powell: “That means n----- citizenship. That is the last speech he will ever make.”
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CWSooner

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Re: The Porch, y'all. pull up a seat and kick back.
« Reply #3896 on: August 22, 2022, 11:29:08 AM »
It's not officially condoned by governments as far as I know, but there are still areas that practice it and don't prosecute for it.  Places in Africa and in the Middle East.  Dubai especially comes to mind.
Yep.

And China has something like slavery--or worse, genocide--for despised non-Han minority groups like the Uyghers.
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utee94

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Re: The Porch, y'all. pull up a seat and kick back.
« Reply #3897 on: August 22, 2022, 11:34:18 AM »
Yep.

And China has something like slavery--or worse, genocide--for despised non-Han minority groups like the Uyghers.
Yes indeed, and it should be often noted, when considering dealing with China.

CWSooner

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Re: The Porch, y'all. pull up a seat and kick back.
« Reply #3898 on: August 22, 2022, 12:08:43 PM »
The slave trade was widely practiced among European countries into the1800s, slavery itself was far less prevalent.  I read once that the cotton gin was in part responsible for the need for vast numbers of slaves in the South.  Before the gin, many slaves were more akin to "house slaves" who did laundry and cooking etc.

My GUESS is slavery would have persisted in the South for some decades.  The Planter Class controlled most everything and they needed it.  I think over time some gradual measures might have come about to "soften" somewhat its appearance, like perhaps they would get paid a pittance, being treated somewhat more like mill workers in mill towns.  In theory, one could eliminate the "property" aspect in the Code and still have slaves in any real aspect of the term.  Mill and mine workers had it pretty hard too back in the day.

CWS no doubt has a better take, or can amplify on this topic.
Spaniards, Portuguese, Dutch, and British were all heavily involved in the slave trade. The French? Less so, if at all. The Spanish enslaved the natives, and when the natives died off, they brought in African slaves to do the work.
The first Africans brought to British America arrived at Jamestown in 1619 aboard a British privateer, which had seized them from a Portuguese slave ship. They appear to have been treated as indentured servants, although under harsher conditions of indenture than whites. The first formal enslavement was in 1640. Three indentured servants--2 white, 1 black--ran away and were recaptured. The whites got a year added to their terms of indenture; the black man was sentenced to a life of servitude.
Slavery was never legal in England after about 1200. Scotland had slavery--mostly mine-workers--until about 1800. The British abolished the overseas slave trade in 1807, as did the USA, leading the rest of the world.
For nearly 1,000 years, southern and eastern Europe suffered periodic slave-capturing raids from Muslim polities in North Africa, the Middle East, and southwestern Asia.
Slavery in the American South was a millstone economically by the time of the Civil War. It existed as an all-encompassing social institution because it met the needs of white people in that respect.
It's hard to guess when slavery in America would have ended had the Confederacy gained its independence. The CS Constitution enshrined slavery (although it prohibited the overseas slave trade) and states were not free to prohibit it within their borders. That makes me think that it would have gone on into the 20th century. And that the South would have had an even more stagnant, retrograde economy than it did in fact for 100 years after the Civil War.
It's interesting how historians' opinions on how long the South would have kept slavery tend to track with their views about Lincoln. Pro-Lincoln historians tend to see the institution of slavery lasting longer than anti-Lincoln historians do. The early 20th century, the Progressive Era, was a time of scientific racism. Historians of that time tended to portray Lincoln in particular and the North in general as being wrong-headed in prosecuting the Civil War and liberating black people. Woodrow Wilson, born and raised in Virginia, whose father had been a Confederate chaplain, was a great example of that mind-set. America's "first great motion picture," Birth of a Nation, of 1915, reflects that point of view. The 2nd iteration of the KKK--the "we hate Jews and Catholics too" version--began in 1915 as well, with the famous ceremony on Stone Mountain.
Eugenics was a very popular field of "scientific" study during that period too. And not just in the USA. Wilson, T. Roosevelt, Margaret Sanger, and Churchill, to name a few prominent people, were true believers.
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Cincydawg

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Re: The Porch, y'all. pull up a seat and kick back.
« Reply #3899 on: August 22, 2022, 06:15:27 PM »
I lean to thinking it would have been modified by 1900 to APPEAR less heinous to become more like mill/mine workers in company towns.  Sure, you're free, but you owe the store and hafta pay that off, and there is nowhere for you to go.

I grew up pretty close to Stone Mountain and would drive out there pretty often to run/walk up the slopes, I remember when the carving was finished.  It's a point of occasional contention here now, the carving.  It's impressive at least, and enormous.


 The figures measure 90 by 190 feet, surrounded by a carved surface that covers three acres, it is larger than a football field – the largest relief sculpture in the world. The carving is recessed 42 feet into the mountain. Work on the Carving began in 1915 and was completed in 1972.
Over the almost half a century that it took to complete the Carving, designs were offered by three sculptures.
  • Gutzon Borglum Worked on the Carving from 1915 – 1925
  • Augustus Lukeman Worked on the Carving from 1925 – 1928
  • Walter Hancock Worked on the Carving from 1963 – 1972



CWSooner

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Re: The Porch, y'all. pull up a seat and kick back.
« Reply #3900 on: August 22, 2022, 06:25:26 PM »
I don't know about the other two sculptors, but Gutzon Borglum--who also carved Mount Rushmore--was a white supremacist.

Per the Font:


Quote
Borglum was an active member of the Ancient Free and Accepted Masons (the Freemasons), raised in Howard Lodge #35, New York City, on June 10, 1904, and serving as its Worshipful Master 1910–11. In 1915, he was appointed Grand Representative of the Grand Lodge of Denmark near the Grand Lodge of New York. He received his Scottish Rite Degrees in the New York City Consistory on October 25, 1907. He was friends with Theodore Roosevelt for many years and during the 1912 United States presidential election Borglum was a very active campaign organizer and member of the Bull Moose Party.

While it has been claimed that Borglum was a member of the Ku Klux Klan, an article in the Smithsonian Magazine denies that there is proof that he officially joined the KKK. That said, he became "deeply involved in Klan politics", attending Klan rallies and serving on Klan committees. In 1925, having only completed the head of Robert E. Lee, Borglum was dismissed from the Stone Mountain project, with some holding that it came about due to infighting within the KKK, with Borglum involved in the strife. Later, he stated "I am not a member of the Kloncilium, nor a knight of the KKK," but Howard Shaff and Audrey Karl Shaff claim that "that was for public consumption." The museum at Mount Rushmore displays a letter to Borglum from D. C. Stephenson, the infamous Klan Grand Dragon who later was convicted of the rape and murder of Madge Oberholtzer. The 8x10 foot portrait contains the inscription "To my good friend Gutzon Borglum, with the greatest respect." Correspondence from Borglum to Stephenson during the 1920s detailed a deep racist conviction in Nordic moral superiority and strict immigration policies.


I imagine that someday even the majority of white Georgians will want those carvings obliterated.
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Cincydawg

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Re: The Porch, y'all. pull up a seat and kick back.
« Reply #3901 on: August 22, 2022, 06:34:51 PM »
I dislike destruction of "art" in principle.  I think it can be managed appropriately with some signage around the sculpture.  When we visit the park, I see a lot of black folks strolling about unconcerned.  One "solution" I dreamed up was an equally sized sculpture of Lincoln/Grant/Sherman opposing them.  

They have some laser light show at night I've never seen but was described to me as a patriotic hodge podge blending it all into 'Merica ...

CWSooner

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Re: The Porch, y'all. pull up a seat and kick back.
« Reply #3902 on: August 22, 2022, 06:38:26 PM »
I lean to thinking it (slavery) would have been modified by 1900 to APPEAR less heinous to become more like mill/mine workers in company towns.  Sure, you're free, but you owe the store and hafta pay that off, and there is nowhere for you to go.
Maybe so.

But I think it might have gone on as long as lethal racial oppression actually did survive--for a century after the Civil War. Maybe even longer, as the real-life oppression--as close to slavery as could be maintained in the face of the 13th, 14th, and 15th Amendments--was relieved mainly by actions of the federal government.
With slavery overtly mandated by the CS Constitution, it would have been difficult to gradually morph it into something with a less-heinous face.
Here's a counterfactual speculation. If the CS Constitution had been amended to abolish slavery, would some Confederate states have staged a second secession?
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CWSooner

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Re: The Porch, y'all. pull up a seat and kick back.
« Reply #3903 on: August 22, 2022, 06:39:34 PM »
Yeah, I don't like the destruction of art either.

But is Stone Mountain art, or is it public memorialization? Or both?
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Cincydawg

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Re: The Porch, y'all. pull up a seat and kick back.
« Reply #3904 on: August 22, 2022, 06:47:05 PM »
I'd call it "art", and I sort of like the notion of having Sherman carved next to it.  I have some admiration for Sherman, as you likely know.  There are any number of historical markers in walking distance of our home related to the Battle of Atlanta, the actual main battle was about 3 miles south of us.  Peachtree Creek is about 3 miles north of us.

I have not been to Shiloh, I think I've been to every other major conflict area at least once.  It would be great to visit gettysburg with you on a walking tour of course.

A lot of battlefields are just jumbles of trees today.

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