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Topic: The Porch, y'all. pull up a seat and kick back.

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Gigem

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Re: The Porch, y'all. pull up a seat and kick back.
« Reply #2954 on: November 05, 2021, 09:05:30 AM »
Last week my son had a pep rally at his school and I got to thinking about how unique American high schools are compared to the rest of the world. I mean football is obviously American, and of course they are big on soccer in Europe. 

I really don’t know much at all about things like this in Europe. My impression is that high school is this really stale place, mostly academic, no cheerleading or marching bands or twirlers etc. And what about Canadian football?  Do they have the same atmosphere at their football games?  

Cincydawg

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Re: The Porch, y'all. pull up a seat and kick back.
« Reply #2955 on: November 05, 2021, 09:11:13 AM »
High school in France is academic in nature, no team sports.  They also "stream" kids very early and only about half as many go to college as do here.  Folks talk like Europe has free college, but part of that is many fewer kids go to college.  The other difference is you take very few courses outside your major.  If you major in chemistry, nearly every class is chemistry, you might take a math or physics or biology class, but no history or French or sociology, none at all.  You were expected to learn that other stuff in HS.  And largely they do because they only take the upper part of the HS students, and the elite colleges there take a thin slice of that.  And if you want to do well in government or business, you need to go to one of the elite colleges.

The US sends nearly 70% of HS grads to college, in France is a bit over half that, so you get a more select group that rarely needs remedial work.  We are very egalitarian here in comparison.

My step daughter has been stressing about her oldest son getting into college in France, he's interested in design stuff, not math etc.  So they are thinking of sending him here to SCAD at considerable expense.

Gigem

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Re: The Porch, y'all. pull up a seat and kick back.
« Reply #2956 on: November 05, 2021, 10:51:24 AM »
Yeah but does France have the equivalent of community college and the smaller state schools?  Is college really “free” in France and Europe?  

Cincydawg

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Re: The Porch, y'all. pull up a seat and kick back.
« Reply #2957 on: November 05, 2021, 11:52:50 AM »
College is partially free in most countries, there are expenses.  They have places you can go to get a plumber's license etc.  and apprentisships.  I don't know about community colleges, I've never seen one, anywhere.  France has 5-6-7 "elite" universities and then state schools dotted around that apparently are not great on your resume.


utee94

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Re: The Porch, y'all. pull up a seat and kick back.
« Reply #2958 on: November 05, 2021, 12:03:11 PM »
Yeah but does France have the equivalent of community college and the smaller state schools?  Is college really “free” in France and Europe? 
Taxes are extremely high in most European countries.  There's no such thing as "free."

Cincydawg

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Re: The Porch, y'all. pull up a seat and kick back.
« Reply #2959 on: November 05, 2021, 12:09:18 PM »
Taxes are extremely high in most European countries.  There's no such thing as "free."
They are, and they hit the middle much harder than we do here.  Plus there is a VAT, a national sales tax of 20% or so.


Gigem

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Re: The Porch, y'all. pull up a seat and kick back.
« Reply #2960 on: November 05, 2021, 03:31:05 PM »
Taxes are extremely high in most European countries.  There's no such thing as "free."
Hence the “ free” in my sentence. 
People often forget that college is heavily subsidized here as well. 

i prefer our system. 

FearlessF

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Re: The Porch, y'all. pull up a seat and kick back.
« Reply #2961 on: November 05, 2021, 03:43:51 PM »
not much talk of student loan forgiveness lately

was a hot topic around election time
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utee94

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Re: The Porch, y'all. pull up a seat and kick back.
« Reply #2962 on: November 05, 2021, 03:47:53 PM »
Hence the “ free” in my sentence.
People often forget that college is heavily subsidized here as well.

i prefer our system.
I actually don't.  College is a terrible investment for a huge segment of the population, the ROI is actually negative in some cases.  Not negative within a window of ten years or 20 years... completely negative.  Forever. 

College in the US was never supposed to be a vocational system and it performs extremely poorly in that function.  In the US, centuries ago, colleges were intended to deliver a rounded liberal arts education to the sons of wealthy gentlemen.  Their families already had money and purpose, college was supposed to be a finishing school.

We've perverted that original function, and conflated it with the American Dream, resulting in the idea that everyone should go to college, and that a college education is necessary in order to be successful.  This is complete bullshit and it's failing miserably across the board here in the USA.

In Europe, as CD pointed out, they start separating folks into different tracks much earlier in their educational program.  They freely acknowledge that not everyone should go to college, and they provide secondary education tracks to prepare the public for vocational training and eventual jobs as electricians or plumbers or service industries.

Fewer people in Europe waste money and time getting a college education they don't want, don't need, and will never use, in their eventual professional career.

Gigem

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Re: The Porch, y'all. pull up a seat and kick back.
« Reply #2963 on: November 05, 2021, 04:23:00 PM »
Oh I agree with this totally. I just meant that I prefer our system of lower taxes. 

All that being said, are you planning on sending your kids to college ?  My oldest is doing community college, probably transferring to the university in the fall. Youngest is a freshman in high school. 

utee94

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« Reply #2964 on: November 05, 2021, 04:44:27 PM »
Oh I agree with this totally. I just meant that I prefer our system of lower taxes.

All that being said, are you planning on sending your kids to college ?  My oldest is doing community college, probably transferring to the university in the fall. Youngest is a freshman in high school.

It's going to depend on what they want to do.  For now, my 14 yo wants to be a vet, so college will be necessary.
My 12yo has no idea.  He knows that he likes pizza and might like to be a "pizza man" so... I guess he should go to Tech? ;)

Mr Tulip

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Re: The Porch, y'all. pull up a seat and kick back.
« Reply #2965 on: November 05, 2021, 04:45:48 PM »
Free community college is actually a very closely debated item. It'd be a reality today if a certain Eeyore clone in West Virginia would quit pining for coal mines and legislate - but that's too close to inflammatory politics, so I won't mention it.

Certain career paths have a college prerequisite by necessity. The rest are oversold. Now that I think of it, I could have likely learned more engineering if I would have simply apprenticed under a practicing one for several years. I know I would have learned more CS doing that.

My daughter took a ton of dual credit courses in high school, and essentially graduated as a collegiate junior. She's been irritated about her college experience being locked up in an overpriced apartment bedroom working on a laptop.

Really, I think we're seeing, likely as part of the pandemic, a re-evaluation of being alive. My generation was sold the tale of "working hard and making something of yourself". We really just became conduits for other peoples' wealth aggregation. Our children are eager to work, and are driven. They're just not driven towards materialism. They're fine doing without. I'm personally interested to see what happens when the "carrot and stick" approach that we've used since the early 1900's stops working.

Gigem

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Re: The Porch, y'all. pull up a seat and kick back.
« Reply #2966 on: November 05, 2021, 04:59:13 PM »
It's going to depend on what they want to do.  For now, my 14 yo wants to be a vet, so college will be necessary.
My 12yo has no idea.  He knows that he likes pizza and might like to be a "pizza man" so... I guess he should go to Tech? ;)
If she wants to be a vet, I think the only choices in state are Texas A&M and Texas Tech. Tech’s vet school is still kinda new too. 
can always do undergrad school wherever. The owner of another forum I frequent daughter just graduated from A&M vet school. 

FearlessF

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Re: The Porch, y'all. pull up a seat and kick back.
« Reply #2967 on: November 05, 2021, 05:09:07 PM »
I'll bet Kansas state has a great vet program

my golfing buddy's 95 year old father is a retired vet, KSU grad, played football there back in the day
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