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Topic: The Porch, y'all. pull up a seat and kick back.

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FearlessF

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Re: The Porch, y'all. pull up a seat and kick back.
« Reply #1876 on: June 16, 2020, 12:01:41 PM »
"Mr. Gorbachev, tear down those sculptures!"
"Courage; Generosity; Fairness; Honor; In these are the true awards of manly sport."

CWSooner

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Re: The Porch, y'all. pull up a seat and kick back.
« Reply #1877 on: June 16, 2020, 12:36:50 PM »
"Mr. Gorbachev, tear down those sculptures!"
A bunch of them did come down.
A bunch came down in Iraq.
Tearing down statues is symbolic and doesn't necessarily fix the underlying problems.
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longhorn320

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Re: The Porch, y'all. pull up a seat and kick back.
« Reply #1878 on: June 16, 2020, 12:57:19 PM »
A bunch of them did come down.
A bunch came down in Iraq.
Tearing down statues is symbolic and doesn't necessarily fix the underlying problems.

we have to destroy history
They won't let me give blood anymore. The burnt orange color scares the hell out of the doctors.

Gigem

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Re: The Porch, y'all. pull up a seat and kick back.
« Reply #1879 on: June 16, 2020, 01:15:41 PM »
I myself really don't care about most of the monuments that are specifically about the confederacy, especially the ones that depict Robert E Lee and Jefferson Davis.  Especially the ones that are here in Tx.  

Of course, there are many more monuments that are about the confederacy or have confederates in them such as the one of Lawrence Sullivan Ross at A&M.  Wanting to tear down a monument just because a person fought in the confederacy is a little far IMO.  People are flawed, and most people back then were racist.  

It makes me wonder if in the future our descendants will be ashamed of each one of us posting because we used ICE (Internal Combustion Engine) vehicles.  Or, *gasp*, we participated in activities like boating or went on cruises that have especially high emissions and pollution.  You don't even have to leave a diary or letters like in the old days, nowadays it's all on the internet or stored somewhere digitally. We documented our own crimes, with pictures and video on social media.  Even this site may be stored somewhere 100 + years from now.  

Or we used plastic products, or worse, worked for a company that makes lots and lots of plastic like myself.  So, should I be lucky enough to get a statue built in my honor (unlikely) 50+ years from now will said statue then be torn down 150+ years later once they realize that I burned fuel, used plastic straws, and worked in the very industry that created all the pollution in the first place even though it was perfectly acceptable and normal at the time I did such things?  

After all, there are people right now living as green as they can, riding their bike, walking, using non-plastic items, bagging their own groceries with reusable bags, taking public transportation, etc and encouraging everyone else to do the same.  But just like in the old days, there are always people advocating for the abolition of slavery, equal rights, etc but most people just accepted the norm until the norm was changed either by war or some other external mechanism.  

utee94

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Re: The Porch, y'all. pull up a seat and kick back.
« Reply #1880 on: June 16, 2020, 01:16:20 PM »
we have to destroy history

Don't know what they'll do with ALL of the confederate monuments on UT campus, but the Jefferson Davis statue wasn't destroyed.  It was moved into a university museum of American history.

FearlessF

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Re: The Porch, y'all. pull up a seat and kick back.
« Reply #1881 on: June 16, 2020, 04:11:08 PM »
changing your culture is fine and probably for the best in most cases

but condemning folks from the past that lived in a different culture isn't right or helpful

gambling is legal in Vegas, prostitution is legal in Vegas and other parts of the world.  Owning slaves was once legal and "normal".  This doesn't make slave owners great people, but it doesn't make them terrible folks either.

laws and cultures change
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Cincydawg

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Re: The Porch, y'all. pull up a seat and kick back.
« Reply #1882 on: June 16, 2020, 05:17:43 PM »
Yeah, what "we" view as "moral" or at least "OK" changes a lot over time, I think some aspects are hard wired, basically a thing that harms another individual physically (or monetarily etc.) but not so much emotionally.  I can legally yell at a person and make them feel bad, with some limited exceptions.


FearlessF

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Re: The Porch, y'all. pull up a seat and kick back.
« Reply #1883 on: June 16, 2020, 05:43:14 PM »
reefer madness was a terrible thing at one time

not so much these daze
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CWSooner

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Re: The Porch, y'all. pull up a seat and kick back.
« Reply #1884 on: June 16, 2020, 06:48:44 PM »
we have to destroy history
Taking down a statue of Robert E. Lee does not destroy history, any more than taking down a statue of Adolf Hitler would.  (I'm not saying that they are the same thing.)
It's just choosing to no longer honor them on public property with taxpayer dollars.
Would you like a statue of Earl Browder, the 2-time head of the American Communist Party, erected on the campus of the University of Texas?  If there were one there now, would you want it to come down?  If you said yes, you'd like to see it come down, you wouldn't be destroying or erasing history.
When monuments have been in place for generations, they acquire an "importance" based on their longevity.  But that doesn't mean that erecting them in the first place was a good idea.
Before I got to OU, there was a mascot called Little Red.  He was a genuine Native American dressed in authentic period garb.  But by 1970 OU had retired him due to objections from various tribes.  Some OU fans even older than I am still lament that he was taken away.  But I think that it was the right decision, and OU football is not lessened because of Little Red's absence.
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CWSooner

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Re: The Porch, y'all. pull up a seat and kick back.
« Reply #1885 on: June 16, 2020, 06:53:40 PM »
changing your culture is fine and probably for the best in most cases

but condemning folks from the past that lived in a different culture isn't right or helpful

gambling is legal in Vegas, prostitution is legal in Vegas and other parts of the world.  Owning slaves was once legal and "normal".  This doesn't make slave owners great people, but it doesn't make them terrible folks either.

laws and cultures change
We might argue about the "normal" part, but slavery was certainly legal.
People who owned slaves could have been otherwise decent, even honorable people.
But--IMO--that doesn't mean that in our day we can't (or shouldn't) decide to stop honoring them for their role in perpetuating slavery.
Robert E. Lee was by most accounts a fine man.  But statues of him weren't erected because he was a fine man, but because he was a great, effective commander in the war to perpetuate and expand slavery.
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CWSooner

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Re: The Porch, y'all. pull up a seat and kick back.
« Reply #1886 on: June 16, 2020, 07:01:14 PM »
I myself really don't care about most of the monuments that are specifically about the confederacy, especially the ones that depict Robert E Lee and Jefferson Davis.  Especially the ones that are here in Tx. 

Of course, there are many more monuments that are about the confederacy or have confederates in them such as the one of Lawrence Sullivan Ross at A&M.  Wanting to tear down a monument just because a person fought in the confederacy is a little far IMO.  People are flawed, and most people back then were racist. 
Why was the statue of Lawrence Sullivan Ross erected?  Would it have been erected had he not fought for the Confederacy?

Quote
It makes me wonder if in the future our descendants will be ashamed of each one of us posting because we used ICE (Internal Combustion Engine) vehicles.  Or, *gasp*, we participated in activities like boating or went on cruises that have especially high emissions and pollution.  You don't even have to leave a diary or letters like in the old days, nowadays it's all on the internet or stored somewhere digitally. We documented our own crimes, with pictures and video on social media.  Even this site may be stored somewhere 100 + years from now.  

Or we used plastic products, or worse, worked for a company that makes lots and lots of plastic like myself.  So, should I be lucky enough to get a statue built in my honor (unlikely) 50+ years from now will said statue then be torn down 150+ years later once they realize that I burned fuel, used plastic straws, and worked in the very industry that created all the pollution in the first place even though it was perfectly acceptable and normal at the time I did such things?  

After all, there are people right now living as green as they can, riding their bike, walking, using non-plastic items, bagging their own groceries with reusable bags, taking public transportation, etc and encouraging everyone else to do the same.  But just like in the old days, there are always people advocating for the abolition of slavery, equal rights, etc but most people just accepted the norm until the norm was changed either by war or some other external mechanism.
People of future generations will have to make their own decisions.  They might decide that people who worked to expand and extend actions that in their (future generations') time seem evil are not worthy of having public monuments erected in their honor.

New information on historical figures is always being unearthed, and new perspectives on the past are always emerging.  We disparagingly call this "revisionist history" when we don't like the new perspectives, while we cheer it when we like what the new information reveals.  Historiography--the writing of history--always says more about the people at the time the history is being written than it does about the historical people whose lives are being written about.
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longhorn320

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Re: The Porch, y'all. pull up a seat and kick back.
« Reply #1887 on: June 16, 2020, 07:10:34 PM »
CW wait till you see what will happens to our school's history books
They won't let me give blood anymore. The burnt orange color scares the hell out of the doctors.

CWSooner

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Re: The Porch, y'all. pull up a seat and kick back.
« Reply #1888 on: June 16, 2020, 07:28:05 PM »
CW wait till you see what will happens to our school's history books
320:
What you fear has already happened.  It was happening when you were in school.
But it's not all bad.
Woodrow Wilson is getting closer scrutiny, which I support.  He has gotten a pass from historians IMO because he was a progressive and he had a Ph.D.  Now historians are dealing with his racism and re-segregation of the federal government.
The Progressives in general are getting closer scrutiny, with their unpleasant underside beliefs like eugenics and scientific racism being exposed.
Slavery is seen as the fundamental cause of secession and civil war, not just one among many causes, or even almost irrelevant.
We can't control what the future generations say of us except by doing the best we can to do the right thing.
I don't think preserving statues of traitors erected on public property for bad reasons would look very good to them.
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longhorn320

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Re: The Porch, y'all. pull up a seat and kick back.
« Reply #1889 on: June 16, 2020, 08:02:49 PM »
320:
What you fear has already happened.  It was happening when you were in school.
But it's not all bad.
Woodrow Wilson is getting closer scrutiny, which I support.  He has gotten a pass from historians IMO because he was a progressive and he had a Ph.D.  Now historians are dealing with his racism and re-segregation of the federal government.
The Progressives in general are getting closer scrutiny, with their unpleasant underside beliefs like eugenics and scientific racism being exposed.
Slavery is seen as the fundamental cause of secession and civil war, not just one among many causes, or even almost irrelevant.
We can't control what the future generations say of us except by doing the best we can to do the right thing.
I don't think preserving statues of traitors erected on public property for bad reasons would look very good to them.
as I said before I dont have a huge problem with the statues of civil war confederate generals

I fear it wont stop there

They won't let me give blood anymore. The burnt orange color scares the hell out of the doctors.

 

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