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Topic: OT-- What song's on your mind right now?

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MikeDeTiger

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Re: OT-- What song's on your mind right now?
« Reply #3486 on: Today at 03:03:19 PM »
"Yacht rock" is such a fungible term that it's probably not worth binning until people are certain they're using the same definition. 

That said, I'd loosely divide Toto's phases like this.  

First four albums (1978 - 1982)
Fusion, which often fits comfortably in a lot of people's definition of yacht rock.  Lots of pop-rock melded together with R&B of that era, which now often retroactively meets people's criteria for yacht rock.  Though even there you run into songs like Hold The Line which are just straight rock anthems.  

Next three albums (1984 - 1988)
Sharp turn into 80's pop-rock.  Sometimes powerful and anthemic, sometimes ballad-y, sometimes strange (think Mushanga), but definitely closer to the quintessential 80's pop sound, and gone is the lingering impression the previous albums left you with that they were all secretly sneaking off to listen to Motown records.  

One-hitter-quitter compilation phase (1990)
Columbia Records releases a greatest hits album featuring four new songs that sound......pop, but not like the previous pop sound.  More in line with the slightly edgier, updated pop sound of the early 90's.  Something closer to INXS than Tears for Fears.  Lots of fans don't like it, singer gets booted in short order, it doesn't last more than that.  I kinda dig it, though.  

Regular rock (1992)
Album sees the end of hiring the rafter-piercing front-men required for the 80's, and guitarist Luke just sings the whole thing himself with a pretty good straight-ahead rock voice.  Gypsy Train I posted is par for the course on that album.  By that time Steve Porcaro has left the band and taken his mountain of synths with him, and that lacking influence is vividly obvious.  

Some kind of prog-rock and pop blend (1995 - 2006)  
New drummer Simon Phillips drags the band relentlessly into prog-rock influences for his entire tenure.  The final album in 2006 is so prog and weird that even I don't like it.  The early offerings are still really cool, though.  Even though prog is not my thing, their pop sensibilities gel it into some very listenable stuff.  Band continues until a hiatus in 2009, but 2006 is the last album. 

Back to pop-rock, but disjointed somehow (2014 - 2020)
Prog drummer out, the next albums return to sounds which are kind of similar to any and all of the pre-prog phases, but the albums feel fragmented, like each member is writing the songs on his own and then they're all thrown onto one record.  Which is probably what happened.  Steve P. is back, and so are some of the synths.  They're also getting old, and the inability and/or lack of desire to absolutely blister crazy-off-the-wall solos is noticeable.  Still a bunch of good songs, even if they don't necessarily flow into a coherent album.  

And that may be it for recording.  They still tour, but lost a lawsuit a few years ago to Jeff's estate, which they said makes it financially implausible for them to record any albums using the name "Toto," and they're not willing to try to re-brand at this point.  For a while they claimed "they couldn't afford to play any songs live that Jeff co-wrote" including Africa, but I suspected the fans would demand they find a way to bring that one back, and I notice they have.  From the interviews I've seen, they're not optimistic about any future albums.  

utee94

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Re: OT-- What song's on your mind right now?
« Reply #3487 on: Today at 03:22:21 PM »
I'll be honest I didn't really follow Toto after the late 80s so the rest of that is news to me.  But I'm sure I've heard some of it and I most likely enjoyed it.

And sure, "Yacht Rock" is a fungible term but that shouldn't preclude trying to define it.  And by definition it's only being defined retroactively, because nobody used that term at the time.  I contrast that with "Southern California country rock" like the Eagles or Flying Burrito Brothers, which were contemporary and somewhat related to yacht rock, but that specific phrasing existed even back then, to describe the sound and the vibe of that style.  Yacht rock on the other hand, was only termed as such much, much after the fact-- posthumously if you will.

Back to my point though, the song "Africa" isn't at all a yacht rock song IMO.  It's rock anthem, and what I more specifically labeled a power pop rock anthem.  I have no idea why people include it on yacht rock playlists, other than, Toto performed it.  It makes me grumpy. :)




« Last Edit: Today at 03:31:17 PM by utee94 »

MikeDeTiger

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Re: OT-- What song's on your mind right now?
« Reply #3488 on: Today at 05:02:11 PM »
I agree--and seems like so do most people--The Eagles belong to something different than yacht rock.  Though Eagles bassist Timothy Schmidt can be found moonlighting backup vocals on some Toto records and Jeff played a number of Don Henley hits and they knew each other well, etc......they're different.  

The documentary, iirc, pointed something out that I agree with, and I don't think it was the first to say it.  What typically gets called "yacht rock" has an underlying R&B influence.  It's not R&B, but it was a time and a group of people who were listening to R&B and importing elements of it into "white boy music."  

This applies to chord progressions, instrument techniques, and all that stuff, but it also applies to the basic sound of those albums that I personally think define their ethos.  The very engineering, the mixing and the mastering, the production decisions, sound more like the R&B stuff back then that I'm familiar with than the pop-rock or So-Cal country rock of the time.  Take Jeff, probably the most ubiquitous yacht rock drummer in the scene....he was fascinated with those old Detroit-based Motown drummers, and he started using their dampening effects on his drums, tuning like they did, all kinds of little things that subtly change the drum sound.  And then the engineers would wash out certain EQs and boost others that were mimicking some of the same things.  Similar things apply on other instruments.  

So that brings me to one of the major ways I tend to classify yacht rock.  The actual sound of the album, as much as or more than the songs and their structure.  They sound a certain way.  Sure, both The Eagles and Toto of the 70's have a unifying 70's sound to their albums indicative of recording techniques and technology of that time.  But they can then be pretty reliably separated even further, I think, into the regular rock or pop stuff that had been evolving, and the stuff that was borrowing heavily from what had been going on with "the other side of the radio" as Jeff called it, referring to stations that played predominantly R&B.  

Then beyond that, you've got the piano/synth/moog sound that drove a lot of yacht rock.  The Eagles probably have some piano here and there, but their music was largely guitar-driven.  A lot of yacht rock was driven as much by electric pianos as by guitars.  But there again, that's a clear R&B influence on the way a lot of those songs were written around piano instead of guitar, and everything that goes with that.  

So that brings me to "Africa."  Here I will respectfully disagree and opine that I think it comfortably belongs in the yacht rock category.  I'll try to explain why it feels like yacht rock to me instead of a rock anthem, and while I can't speak for others, I suspect they're thinking something similar.

One, because it has the yacht rock sound.  A very different song than, say, "Afraid of Love" off the same album, but tonally, the entire sonic ethos of the instruments still signal the same album, the same time.  And again with "Waiting For Your Love" from the same album.....more or less a straight-ahead R&B track, but everything about the sound screams to me the same things all the other Toto IV songs scream.  Or, jump to a totally different album.  There are things going on with the sound of IV that are also going on with something like Michael McDonald's "If That's What It Takes" album.  If you skip ahead to 1990, McDonald put out an album called Take It To Heart, and as an illustration of distinctive sounds, many, many years later I came across a song of his I'd never heard, but everything about it screamed "This has to come from the Take It To Heart sessions, surely."  It sounded just like the other songs, in a way.  A few years after that I got to ask him myself about that song and he confirmed it was recorded for that album, and something happened....record company decided not to use it or something....can't remember exactly what he said.  The larger point being that, because I conceptualize yacht rock at least partly in terms of the sound and independent of chord structure or playing style, Africa just sounds like yacht rock to me.  

Second, because of the other things too, like the actual style of the song.  I'd never thought about it being a rock anthem until you said that.  Now that I think about it, it's certainly anthemic, particularly the chorus.  I still don't see it as a very rock oriented tune, though, because the defining and driving elements of it are keys and synths, not guitar.  Most of the track doesn't even have electric guitar, just a very sparse acoustic line.  An electric line does come in on the third chorus and it definitely adds a lot and is even iconic to some, but it's still not driving the song.  It's decorative.  A background part, if you will.  For me, a rock anthem is going to be driven and centered around the guitar.  Which is why I'd call a song like Hold The Line a rock anthem, because even though it begins with an iconic piano line, it's the guitar kicks in and becomes the main driver of the song.  Not to mention a great guitar solo midway through.  Africa, of course, has no guitar solo, and not too much guitar overall.  There's also a metric ton of percussion in Africa, which characterized the yacht rock ethos as well.  Certainly rock songs have used percussion, no doubt about that, but they don't tend to be saturated in it.  And then there's the drum loop.  For me, a rock song will typically feature a drummer doing his thing all the way through.  Famously, Jeff looped two measures of his actual playing into one of the first-ever pre-digital loops.  He wanted it to sound like the Lin drum machine lines that were popular at the time.  Something that would be repetitive and more static, but that felt better than a drum machine, so he played it himself and picked out his favorite to measures.  Then, of course, he had to overdub the drum fills leading into the choruses of Africa, but he wasn't actually playing that song.  The intention to have a loop-ish, drum machine feel isn't necessarily a yacht rock thing to do, but it's an R&B thing to do which goes back to the earlier points, and it's definitely not a very rock thing to do.  

The weird thing about Hold The Line is that as rocky as it is, it still has the yacht rock sound, and I wouldn't necessarily try to take it out of that bin, though I'd understand if somebody else did.  

So, that's as best as I can explain it.  Your mileage varies, and that's okay by me.  Songs hit you how they hit you.  This is an attempt to explain why I suspect people think of Africa as a yacht rock song.  

utee94

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Re: OT-- What song's on your mind right now?
« Reply #3489 on: Today at 05:16:41 PM »
I certainly respect your opinion, and the educational discourse!

But I don't agree with it.

It goes back to a discussion we had about songs that belong together on a playlist, even when they're not from the exact same genre.  We were talking specifically about glam rock/hair metal at the time, and hair metal adjacent songs that can still sound like they belong on a hair metal playlist.  A Van Halen song like Jump or a Billy Idol song like Rebel Yell, can absolutely, perfectly follow Bon Jovi Livin' On a Prayer.

But if I hear Africa immediately follow Christopher Cross Sailing, I'm going to cringe.  Those don't fit stylistically, thematically, or muscially.  They're not the same.  I would find it extremely jarring and I'd severely question the knowledge and taste of the DJ who strung those two together.

Because Sailing is the quintessence of yacht rock.

And Africa is an 80s power pop synth anthem.

Never the twain shall meet.


utee94

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Re: OT-- What song's on your mind right now?
« Reply #3490 on: Today at 05:27:53 PM »
I should clarify-- I'm talking specifically about a "yacht rock" playlist.

If the playlist theme is just "music that came out in the first half of the 80s" or "music that happened to come out within 2 or 3 years of each other" or "music that I like" then it would of course be fine.

« Last Edit: Today at 05:41:20 PM by utee94 »

utee94

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Re: OT-- What song's on your mind right now?
« Reply #3491 on: Today at 05:53:47 PM »
Anyway, now this song is on my mind.  I can vividly remember following my crush around the roller rink, trying to make sure I had the chance to ask her to skate to this song!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rQysrhYnWHg

 

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