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Topic: CBS: Ranking the 2019 college football bowl games, 39-1

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longhorn320

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Re: CBS: Ranking the 2019 college football bowl games, 39-1
« Reply #112 on: January 03, 2020, 08:55:52 AM »


Two years ago, Texas had two players that were accused of sexual assault, and the head coach immediately kicked them off the team.  They were later acquitted but the football program took zero chances and had a zero tolerance policy for sexual assault and other similar crimes.  I'm good with that.  Assaults can and have happened at Texas.  Having an athletic program complicit in it, isn't going to happen at Texas.


Youre good with that?

I think all accused should have their day in court and if found guilty then fry em otherwise they should have been reinstated to the team

In addition any accuser who lies about the accusation should get the same penalty as the accused would have gotten

otherwise we live the Salem witch trials all over again
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Cincydawg

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Re: CBS: Ranking the 2019 college football bowl games, 39-1
« Reply #113 on: January 03, 2020, 09:07:12 AM »
Yeah, players only accused should not be kicked off for that unless there is other clear evidence to the staff.  The bar could be lower than in court.

Mr Tulip

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Re: CBS: Ranking the 2019 college football bowl games, 39-1
« Reply #114 on: January 03, 2020, 09:23:08 AM »
Ok, I was unclear.

Sex assaults are crimes and are investigated by law enforcement. However, Title IX is part of US Federal Civil Rights legislation which forbids discrimination from any educational opportunity on the basis of of sex. This applies, then, to any institution receiving federal financial support (like any school that accepts federal loans or grant as payment).

Under this authority, schools are obligated to ensure that their students don't face threats or diminished educational opportunities because of their sex. Sexual assaults are recognized as having the capability of diminishing those educational opportunities. Accordingly, every school has a "Title IX Compliance" department that, in addition to ensuring correct funding and availability of opportunity, also helps compile and oversee sex crime statistics and administration.

Being arrested, tried, and convicted of sex assault is a matter for the criminal court system and is handled there. That process can result in a person losing their freedom and going to jail. There are long recognized procedures for this, with commensurate standards.

Participating in college athletics is not a right, but merely a privilege. It can be removed or suspended for far less standards than those required for a criminal conviction in a courtroom. For our purposes here, the Title IX Compliance office is a perfect place for assault claims against a player to land. A sports coach is largely removed from the role of having to decide suspensions or sanctions. The Title IX office handles the fact gathering as is pertinent to the University's need to ensure a non-discriminatory environment. The criminal court system handles the prosecution related to the, well, criminal complaint.

utee94

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Re: CBS: Ranking the 2019 college football bowl games, 39-1
« Reply #115 on: January 03, 2020, 11:56:48 AM »
Youre good with that?

I think all accused should have their day in court and if found guilty then fry em otherwise they should have been reinstated to the team

In addition any accuser who lies about the accusation should get the same penalty as the accused would have gotten

otherwise we live the Salem witch trials all over again

There wasn't enough evidence to convict.  There was still shady activity.  None of that made the press of course.

The actions by the athletic department were justified IMO.  

Mr Tulip

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Re: CBS: Ranking the 2019 college football bowl games, 39-1
« Reply #116 on: January 03, 2020, 12:16:49 PM »
And therein lies the difference.

A criminal conviction requires specific procedures and evidence. We're proposing to remove freedom and rights from a human being. Because that's such a dire consequence, we've developed rules and procedures that attempt to ensure that this freedom isn't removed without honest, ethical evidence and argument.

Being accepted on a sports team is a privilege. When you are accepted and agree to join, you obligate yourself to the team's ethos, rules, and restrictions. It may be different in some towns, but Austin's press and police department are not subservient to the University of Texas. If a Longhorn football player does something, they'll know about it and report it - and they should!

When you're a Longhorn football player, your actions attract attention rightly or wrongly. You know that going in. They reflect on the entire team and program. If personal responsibility just isn't your thing, then there's a line of kids behind you who'd like their chance.

CWSooner

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Re: CBS: Ranking the 2019 college football bowl games, 39-1
« Reply #117 on: January 03, 2020, 12:42:33 PM »
Good football players are allowed to stay on the team--even at Texas--despite all sorts of jack-assery, like driving their car into the side of a house and leaving the scene, resisting arrest, public intoxication, indecent exposure, running from the cops, use of illegal drugs, etc.  All that stuff typically gets "handled internally."  But let one get accused of some sexual offense (an offense that he is never even charged with in a court of law) and the weight of the entire university comes down upon him.  He has no right to counsel, he can't cross-examine the accuser, he is presumed guilty unless he can prove his innocence.

The system is messed up.
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Mr Tulip

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Re: CBS: Ranking the 2019 college football bowl games, 39-1
« Reply #118 on: January 03, 2020, 12:55:55 PM »
Well, college kids are still kids, and like at home, every infraction doesn't have to warrant major punishment and dismissal. Learning and growing is still the goal, and if a kid can change, then a coach shouldn't jump straight to dismissal.

I suspect, though, your broader thought is the power of a Title IX investigation as applied to your average college student (sports or no). While the facts stated previously are valid: Sex assault denies opportunity on the basis of sex, attending a University is a privilege and not a right, and evidence needed to convict at a criminal trial is and should be at a higher standard than other places. However, let's not pretend that getting kicked out of a University on the basis of a sex assault finding isn't devastating to someone's future.

In that light, I can agree that Title IX Compliance offices are often tasked with a responsibility that they're not equipped for. They lack investigative authority such as warrants or subpoenas (rightly). While it's ultra-rare for someone to claim to be a victim for vengeance (or other) purposes, even defending yourself against a misplaced (while otherwise valid) accusation can be ruinous.

FearlessF

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Re: CBS: Ranking the 2019 college football bowl games, 39-1
« Reply #119 on: January 03, 2020, 01:02:18 PM »
Good football players are allowed to stay on the team--even at Texas--despite all sorts of jack-assery, like driving their car into the side of a house and leaving the scene, resisting arrest, public intoxication, indecent exposure, running from the cops, use of illegal drugs, etc.  All that stuff typically gets "handled internally."  But let one get accused of some sexual offense (an offense that he is never even charged with in a court of law) and the weight of the entire university comes down upon him.  He has no right to counsel, he can't cross-examine the accuser, he is presumed guilty unless he can prove his innocence.

The system is messed up.
and the system is a result of society, right or wrong

if it keeps going, texting and driving will be a felony
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BrownCounty

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Re: CBS: Ranking the 2019 college football bowl games, 39-1
« Reply #120 on: January 03, 2020, 01:41:28 PM »
and the system is a result of society, right or wrong

if it keeps going, texting and driving will be a felony

The society you speak of will never render that result - better to let some motorists die than to take away our seductive smartphones while running errands.

FearlessF

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Re: CBS: Ranking the 2019 college football bowl games, 39-1
« Reply #121 on: January 03, 2020, 02:53:38 PM »
they took away our seductive drinking and driving
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Cincydawg

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Re: CBS: Ranking the 2019 college football bowl games, 39-1
« Reply #122 on: January 03, 2020, 02:58:40 PM »
There is some stupid car commercial (the commercial is stupid) but it has the masses all walking around staring at their phones and the car manages not to run them down.

I'm often over in the park on a beautiful day walking with the wife and see youngster - at least they are walking - staring at their phones.  This is akin to crack.  

CWSooner

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Re: CBS: Ranking the 2019 college football bowl games, 39-1
« Reply #123 on: January 03, 2020, 05:23:52 PM »
We've got a generation of young people who walk around with shoulders slumped and heads down as if they were 80 years old.
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Mr Tulip

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Re: CBS: Ranking the 2019 college football bowl games, 39-1
« Reply #124 on: January 03, 2020, 05:36:42 PM »
I'm on Facebook reasonably often, and not really that connected to Twitter. I do have to remind myself to put the phone down and pick up something else, like a musical instrument, from time to time.

I ride my bike frequently. You can't really putz with a phone and pedal, so there's that. The cell phone thing comes from "fear of missing out". When I was in college, we had online Dungeons and Dragons type games that were more social than game. Lots of chatting. When you logged off and went to bed, it felt like there was a party going on in the next room and you weren't invited. I see that same effect with constantly connected computing (communicating) devices today.

Cincydawg

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Re: CBS: Ranking the 2019 college football bowl games, 39-1
« Reply #125 on: January 03, 2020, 05:40:44 PM »
Somebody told me I should get into Linkin way back, so being new to all of this I did.  For me, it not only was weird, but pointless and without any redeeming value, so I went to "unenroll" in the dang thing.  I found I couldn't, the option did not exist.  I turned off all the beppers so I wasn't getting as many emails, but I still got too many.  I finally had to call them.  I was getting friend requests from weird people.  Networking had zero interest for me, I had a job I couldn't leave.

I got onto FB because when my kids went to college, they told me that was how they communicated not, now with email.  They were in My Space initially.

I find FB entertaining at times.  I can annoy people I don't even know.

 

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