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Topic: The Ukraine Topic

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Cincydawg

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Re: The Ukraine Topic
« Reply #2058 on: May 04, 2022, 12:07:54 PM »
My point obviously is simply that I'm not sure what Finland gains by joining NATO, relative to the possible future danger.

Mdot21

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Re: The Ukraine Topic
« Reply #2059 on: May 04, 2022, 12:12:14 PM »
My point obviously is simply that I'm not sure what Finland gains by joining NATO, relative to the possible future danger.
I agree with you. 

WhiskeyM

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Re: The Ukraine Topic
« Reply #2060 on: May 04, 2022, 12:16:26 PM »
Finland gets backed by powerful militaries with nuclear weapons.  Finland does not have nuclear weapons.

It's easy to see what Finland gets.  

We already saw what Russia does to non NATO countries without a nuclear arsenal.

Mdot21

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Re: The Ukraine Topic
« Reply #2061 on: May 04, 2022, 12:36:51 PM »
Finland gets backed by powerful militaries with nuclear weapons.  Finland does not have nuclear weapons.

It's easy to see what Finland gets. 

We already saw what Russia does to non NATO countries without a nuclear arsenal.
You're acting like it's a bunch of countries. It's two countries Russia share borders with that have deep and long historical ties to Russia/USSR. Russia's tensions/wars with Georgia and Ukraine did not escalate to boiling points until both countries decided they'd like to try and join NATO in 2008 and have stronger ties with the EU. US plotting a coup and overthrowing the democratically elected government of Ukraine in 2014 is what laid the ground and foundation which led to this shitshow today in Ukraine. This war isn't going on right now- if US had just stayed out and minded it's own business. Only a crazy person would think Russia would not react at all to the US trying to rip those countries out of Russia's sphere of influence.

Sweden nor Finland is in Russia's sphere of influence. Both countries are in the EU and have long been in the EU. There hasn't even been a whiff or hint that Russia was aggressive towards either country- and their warning to both countries not to join NATO just happened when....right now....when Russia has been at it's most vulnerable in decades- because it's got the entire West aligned against them and they are getting their asses kicked and bogged down in Ukraine.

US gave Ukraine security guarantees in '94 with tons of outs and aren't coming to their defense. US has given Ukraine a formal open ended invitation to NATO and said that they'll be a future member of NATO- and still nothing. Just pumping money and weapons into the country- doing some training of their forces- but no boots on the ground, no air support, no no fly zones, no drone bombings, no direct involvement.

NATO- which in reality is mostly just the US- really just needs to stay out. All the US ever does is make sh*t worse and waste US tax payer dollar by the truck load. Our federal gov't run deficits every year like it's going out of style and is $31 trillion in debt right now. Just invented $14 billion to give them over the last couple months- let's just invent another $33 billion and pull it out our ass to give away to Ukraine....and then in 3-4 months...we'll just invent and pull another $30-40 billion out of our ass to give to them. Hey why not! Let's just keep racking that debt up til it hits $100 trillion baby!

Russia does not have the capability to invade Sweden or Finland. They are getting their ass shown to the world by not being able to take Ukraine.

Cincydawg

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Re: The Ukraine Topic
« Reply #2062 on: May 04, 2022, 12:42:16 PM »
Russia did invade Finland, but it was about 80 years ago.  It didn't turn out that well for them then either.

Cincydawg

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Re: The Ukraine Topic
« Reply #2063 on: May 04, 2022, 12:46:08 PM »
I'm not surprised this has largely left the news cycle.  The "news" gets bored with things, usually, quickly, unless something astounding happens.


Mdot21

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Re: The Ukraine Topic
« Reply #2064 on: May 04, 2022, 12:53:08 PM »
Russia did invade Finland, but it was about 80 years ago.  It didn't turn out that well for them then either.
Russia wasn't even technically a country 80 years ago. They were a state within the country of the Soviet Union.

And if you want to talk about what countries that no longer exist did 80 years ago, then let's have the discussion about Germany and the Third Reich....aside from only starting a couple World Wars they murdered 17+ million people all for the crime of being Jewish, Romani, Soviet (both civilian and PoW's), Polish, Serbian, Homosexual, Mentally & Physically disabled, Jevoah's Witness, and other "undesirables".

You could make a great case that Germany should've never have been allowed to form another country or government ever again or have a military ever again. Germans just like to kill things. It's in their blood. They ended the Roman Empire and pretty much started both World Wars and many of the wars of Europe. I'd rather they not re-arm.

Mdot21

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Re: The Ukraine Topic
« Reply #2065 on: May 04, 2022, 12:53:39 PM »
I'm not surprised this has largely left the news cycle.  The "news" gets bored with things, usually, quickly, unless something astounding happens.
Elon Musk bought twitter and Roe v Wade likely being overturned happened....that's the main reason it's left the news cycle.

OrangeAfroMan

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Re: The Ukraine Topic
« Reply #2066 on: May 04, 2022, 07:17:23 PM »
Russia did invade Finland, but it was about 80 years ago.  It didn't turn out that well for them then either.
I don't think it's wise to invade any place where the ground is ice.
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WhiskeyM

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Re: The Ukraine Topic
« Reply #2067 on: May 04, 2022, 07:21:21 PM »
Russia's tensions/wars with Georgia and Ukraine did not escalate to boiling points until both countries decided they'd like to try and join NATO in 2008 and have stronger ties with the EU. US plotting a coup and overthrowing the democratically elected government of Ukraine in 2014 is what laid the ground and foundation which led to this shitshow today in Ukraine. This war isn't going on right now- if US had just stayed out and minded it's own business. Only a crazy person would think Russia would not react at all to the US trying to rip those countries out of Russia's sphere of influence.

Sweden nor Finland is in Russia's sphere of influence.


Russia does not have the capability to invade Sweden or Finland. They are getting their ass shown to the world by not being able to take Ukraine.

Ukraine will tell you that's complete BS.  Their violent history with what is now Russia goes much further back than 2008.

Ukraine has been fighting them on and off for almost 400 years, dating back to when Russia was a Tsardom.  They fought a war for their independence in the early 1900's, and had several conflicts with what is now Russia over that timeframe.

The history of Finland and Russia is the same.  In fact, the Tsardom of Russia once included part of what is now Finland.  They aren't in the Russian sphere of influence because of a lack of interest by Russia, they aren't in it because Finland has fought to stay out of it.

Sweden has a history of fighting Russia that dates back hundreds of years as well.

Yes, Russia is getting beat.  However it's still in the realm of possibility that they consolidate power on the eastern front and secure eastern Ukraine.

St Petersburg, a very important strategic city to Russia, is only 250 miles to Finland.  It is part of an area that Russia would love to secure because it provides a relatively easy road to St Petersburg and then on to Moscow (in the same fashion eastern Ukraine provides a very easy path to Moscow).

Putin wants an empire that rivals the enormous ones of the past..  It's that simple.  He wants those countries.  He wants the resources, and he wants an expanded western Russian border to secure 2 of his key cities.

An invasion of Finland, and possibly Sweden, is entirely possible at some point if Russia ever manages to secure Ukraine.  They've done it before.

Mdot21

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Re: The Ukraine Topic
« Reply #2068 on: May 04, 2022, 08:49:17 PM »
Ukraine will tell you that's complete BS.  Their violent history with what is now Russia goes much further back than 2008.

Ukraine has been fighting them on and off for almost 400 years, dating back to when Russia was a Tsardom.  They fought a war for their independence in the early 1900's, and had several conflicts with what is now Russia over that timeframe.

The history of Finland and Russia is the same.  In fact, the Tsardom of Russia once included part of what is now Finland.  They aren't in the Russian sphere of influence because of a lack of interest by Russia, they aren't in it because Finland has fought to stay out of it.

Sweden has a history of fighting Russia that dates back hundreds of years as well.

Yes, Russia is getting beat.  However it's still in the realm of possibility that they consolidate power on the eastern front and secure eastern Ukraine.

St Petersburg, a very important strategic city to Russia, is only 250 miles to Finland.  It is part of an area that Russia would love to secure because it provides a relatively easy road to St Petersburg and then on to Moscow (in the same fashion eastern Ukraine provides a very easy path to Moscow).

Putin wants an empire that rivals the enormous ones of the past..  It's that simple.  He wants those countries.  He wants the resources, and he wants an expanded western Russian border to secure 2 of his key cities.

An invasion of Finland, and possibly Sweden, is entirely possible at some point if Russia ever manages to secure Ukraine.  They've done it before.
Fantastical story tales, but where is the evidence of this? Where is it? Where is the evidence he wants Sweden and Finland to be his. Putin isn't some great conquerer like Alexander the Great- dude is getting his ass spanked in the Ukraine right now- nor is he likely to live that much longer. Putin is 70 years old. There have been reports out of Russia- that Putin has cancer, and it's severe enough that he needs to have surgery to have tumors removed- and that he has drawn up plans to transfer power temporarily. There have been whispers for a couple years now that Putin is sick.

It's pretty simple....Russia issued no warnings to Finland or Sweden about NATO until when? Right now, recently, when both countries have decided to go ahead and start flirting with NATO. It's pretty f**king easy to see why Russia would not want NATO anywhere near them. You just said it....St Petersburg is only 250 miles to Finland. They don't want NATO to have a footprint or NATO to have any bases anywhere near them. Can't blame them. Who can?

Any Russian leader would perceive NATO on their doorstep as a threat. Yelstin perceived it as a threat as well. The declassified records of his conversations with Clinton prove this. He was in zero position to do anything however, as Russia's economy and military was literally in shambles under Yeltsin as he was an ineffective leader and a complete drunk, whose entire grip on power in Russia was largely propped up by and dependent on the Clinton administration- he was basically a puppet.

CWSooner

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Re: The Ukraine Topic
« Reply #2069 on: May 04, 2022, 11:19:48 PM »
PROVIDENCE
A Just War-Cold War Response to Nuclear Blackmail
By J. Daryl Charles on April 29, 2022


On April 20, Vladimir Putin presided over the test launch of a nuclear-capacity intercontinental ballistic missile. The implications of the event, he warned, should cause Moscow’s enemies who represent outside threats to “think twice.” This, of course, is Putin’s latest use of the nuclear threat. At the beginning of the war against Ukraine, he warned of “the likes of which you [the United States and NATO] have never seen in history,” should Western aid to Ukrainian resistance emerge. On April 16, Putin issued a new warning of “unpredictable consequences,” following US President Joe Biden’s commitment of $800 million of military hardware to Ukraine, should the US and NATO continue to arm Ukraine. This threat followed on the heels of an announcement by Dmitry Medvedev, a senior member of Russia’s security council, that Russia will be forced to strengthen its nuclear forces in the Baltics should Finland and Sweden join NATO (which both have been deliberating).

These warnings constitute a pattern of the Kremlin’s nuclear sabre rattling that is aimed at deterring Western military assistance to Ukraine. Putin’s rhetoric is intended to communicate that there is no stopping him and that any such attempts will result in the unthinkable. How might the West (i.e., the US and other NATO members) respond? Most importantly, how should they respond? Can Putin be stopped by relatively free nations? And should he?

As a recent former White House national security advisor has observed in recent days, it is utterly unthinkable—indeed, doubly unthinkable—that a permanent member of the United Nations Security Council would resort to nuclear blackmail in its attempt to conquer another nation. Yet at the same time, the use of the inconceivable is wholly consistent with totalitarian regimes. Putin is committed to the war’s “escalation,” which is a euphemism for catastrophic and unspeakable slaughter. Ukraine’s valiant resistance against slaughter and tyranny thus far only increases Putin’s resolve to subjugate this people group and pour out his vindictive wrath.

As the war in Ukraine demonstrates, gone in our day is any semblance of world order and international security. Since the commencement of the war, Russian forces have perpetrated everything that international security institutions and declarations since the end of World War II were designed to prevent. In this light, it is incumbent on the West, with the US in leadership, to spell out to Moscow, difficult as this is for Western nations in general, that we will not tolerate the Russian campaign of slaughter and annihilation and that we will deter proportionately. We will not acquiesce to evil and permit Moscow to reassert Russian imperialism in a manner that resurrects the terror and horrors of Soviet tyranny.

Against the fears of many, both classical just war and Cold War thinking require that we retaliate not in kind or with a view of total destruction but proportionately to the threat. After all, this is the basic premise of “criminal justice”—in any context. Justice, which is non-fluid and universal in its character, requires a proportionate response, for the common good of all. One can only imagine the fear and chaos unleashed in our neighborhoods, communities, and cities if police and law-enforcement agencies were to throw up their hands in consternation and helplessness when and where confronted by the unleashing in our communities of injustice and horrendous evil at the hands of the lawless.

As The Economist rightly noted last weekend, if Russia wishes to impose its brutal vision on its neighbor, then that is “everybody’s business,” and not simply Ukraine’s. What exactly is at stake in Ukraine, after all? First of all, let us identify with 44 million people who call themselves Ukrainian. Remarkably, it is estimated that nearly 70 percent of the nation claims some sort of allegiance to the Christian faith; such numbers are almost unheard of in our world today. But the religious character of the Ukrainian population aside, the geopolitical significance of the unjust war being waged and raged against Ukraine is monumental and thus needs clarifying. This is a nation whose integrity, freedom, and sovereignty were affirmed by the US, United Kingdom, Russia, and Ukraine in the 1994 Budapest Memorandum. Where is the authority—and the moral backbone—to back and enforce this declaration by Western nations and Russia itself? Alas, it is non-existent. That is deeply troubling. Not only is this a moral abdication of our obligations to the community of nations and to Ukraine specifically, but it is also a denial of fundamental human rights. Moreover, it is tragic that in 2008 Germany and France blocked Ukraine’s accession to NATO; Putin, of course, has wasted little time in ensuring that Kyiv’s joining the alliance does not happen.

Not only at stake is the fate of almost 50 million innocent people whose integrity as a nation was promised, but a view of the world—a “worldview” and a world order—is at stake as well. In the vision of a revamped Russian empire—whose loss in 1989 Putin declared to be “the greatest geopolitical catastrophe of the twentieth century”—totalitarian tyranny, not an acknowledgment of basic human freedoms, becomes the norm. Thereby, not only is the West to be renounced, but smaller nations are to be subjugated, and without resistance. For Putin, then, the stakes in Ukraine are infinitely great. China, of course, is watching.

The West simply cannot continue hoping for any sort of “negotiated peace” in Ukraine; we have passed the point of no return. Putin has crossed the Rubicon, and the costs will be catastrophic and unspeakable. Putin’s goal, much like Joseph Stalin’s in the 1930s, is to eradicate the identity of the Ukrainians as a sovereign people and to ensure that Ukraine does not become part of any Western alliance, which itself through Russian eyes is a reminder of the Cold War debacle.

Off the battlefield, the West at the moment is losing the war of ideas and moral reasoning. We are so morally obtuse that we have difficulty distinguishing between a “just” and “unjust” war; even worse, we are reticent to defend those who are hopelessly caught in the demonic throes of an unjust war and genocide. As further evidence of this “losing battle,” just consider the demoralizing effect of the United Nations vote last week, in which 24 of 141 member nations voted not to remove Russia from the UN’s Human Rights Council and, more significantly, 58 of those 141 abstained from voting.

These stunning results only embolden the Russian dictator to do the unthinkable. But then we should not be surprised, given Putin’s formal agreement with Xi Jinping at the opening of the Winter Olympics in China in early February. In that agreement, the two dictators announced that there are “no limits” and that there is nothing “forbidden” in their fundamental and future unity. Both are committed to restructuring the post-Cold War geopolitical order. In Ukraine, the “forbidden” has been a recurring demonic pattern since the war’s beginning. And the recently appointed new commander of Russian forces, Gen. Alexander Dvornikov—labeled by some as the real “Butcher of Baghdad” based on his brutal efficiency in Crimea, Chechnya, and Syria—is surely an ominous sign.

Ukraine’s remarkably heroic resistance up to this point is absolutely galling and reprehensible to Putin. Tragically, however, Ukrainians’ bravery alone will not end the war. It will take nothing less than the West’s steel-willed military deterrence to prevent unspeakable slaughter in the days and weeks ahead. Putin’s periodic nuclear threats confirm this, as his latest attempt at blackmail indicates: the US and NATO members must back off.

What are the options before us? They are essentially two. Either we deter Russian aggression, which means that we convince Putin that we will not tolerate his first-strike nuclear threats and be intimidated, or we passively acquiesce to nuclear blackmail and Russian butchery of a nation that was promised its integrity and sovereignty five years after the Cold War ended.

What escapes many in our day is that the West, to a large extent, deterred nuclear war as a result of its Cold War policies. For decades, nuclear deterrence by the West, which was predicated not on first-strike capability but first-strike deterrence, was successful in averting war, not precipitating it. Those deterrents must be put in place now. The West’s response to Russia’s invasion of Ukraine, as Ukraine’s Defense Minister Aleksii Reznikov in recent days noted, has been too slow; the need is immediate. Time is running out. The aggressor needs irreversible punishment and deterrence. Russia has proven itself to be a terrorist state, and Putin will not stop. If Putin is successful in Ukraine, the result will be global chaos and confusion, in addition to unspeakable suffering and bloodshed in Ukraine that results in the annihilation and enslavement of a people group.

Can the West, with the US providing leadership, bring itself to ensuring Ukraine that her cause is just and winnable? Will we help defend Ukraine rather than simply make pronouncements from afar? Or will we shrink back—out of fear and intimidation—from a just response to cataclysmic evil, an evil that will set in motion unprecedented global chaos? The only strategy of preventing untold—and unspeakably tragic—suffering in the days ahead is to deter and prevent Putin militarily, so that Russian forces do not prolong mass suffering (which they will) and Putin does not employ nuclear blackmail (as he is doing and will continue to do).

J. Daryl Charles, PhD, is the Acton Institute Affiliated Scholar in Theology & Ethics, a contributing editor to Providence: A Journal of Christianity and American Foreign Policy, and an affiliate scholar of the John Jay Institute. He is author, co-author, editor, or co-editor of eighteen books, including Natural Law and Religious Freedom (Routledge, 2018), (with David D. Corey) The Just War Tradition: An Introduction (ISI Books 2012), (with David B. Capes) Thriving in Babylon (Pickwick, 2011), Retrieving the Natural Law: A Return to Moral First Things (Eerdmans, 2008), and most recently, (with Mark David Hall) America’s Wars and the Just War Tradition: A History of U.S. Conflicts (University of Notre Dame Press, 2019) and Wisdom’s Work: Essays on Ethics, Vocation, and Cultural Engagement (Acton Institute Press, 2019). Charles is currently co-editor of the recently translated Common Grace series by Abraham Kuyper, part of a twelve-volume Abraham Kuyper Collected Works in Public Theology series being produced by the Acton Institute.

Charles has taught at Taylor University and Union University, served as director of the Bryan Institute for Critical Thought & Practice, was a 2013–14 visiting professor in the honors program at Berry College, served as a 2007–08 William B. Simon visiting fellow in religion and public life at the James Madison Program, Princeton University, as well as the 2003–04 visiting fellow of the Institute for Faith & Learning, Baylor University. The focus of Charles’ research and writing is religion and society, Christian social ethics, the just war tradition, and the natural law. His work has been published in a wide array of both scholarly and popular journals, including First Things, Pro Ecclesia, Touchstone, Journal of Church and State, National Catholic Bioethics Quarterly, Journal of Religious Ethics, Books and Culture, Cultural Encounters, Philosophia Christi, The Weekly Standard, Christian Scholar’s Review, and Christianity Today. Prior to entering the university classroom, Charles did public-policy work in criminal justice in Washington, DC.


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MrNubbz

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Re: The Ukraine Topic
« Reply #2070 on: May 04, 2022, 11:35:07 PM »
I'm not so sure China would go all in with Vlad when financially/politically they've entered a new era sans their Bat fixation.Not sure they'd be willing to flush their best prospects they've had because Vlad feels like playing bully.Risk all that when so many have their fingers on a Nuclear trigger.
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847badgerfan

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Re: The Ukraine Topic
« Reply #2071 on: May 05, 2022, 07:17:55 AM »
Russia wasn't even technically a country 80 years ago. They were a state within the country of the Soviet Union.

And if you want to talk about what countries that no longer exist did 80 years ago, then let's have the discussion about Germany and the Third Reich....aside from only starting a couple World Wars they murdered 17+ million people all for the crime of being Jewish, Romani, Soviet (both civilian and PoW's), Polish, Serbian, Homosexual, Mentally & Physically disabled, Jevoah's Witness, and other "undesirables".

You could make a great case that Germany should've never have been allowed to form another country or government ever again or have a military ever again. Germans just like to kill things. It's in their blood. They ended the Roman Empire and pretty much started both World Wars and many of the wars of Europe. I'd rather they not re-arm.
My blood is 100 percent German. Never killed anyone, nor is it my desire. Your brush is too broad here.
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