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Topic: Will the CFP Committee be influenced by past year results?

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OrangeAfroMan

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Re: Will the CFP Committee be influenced by past year results?
« Reply #28 on: February 02, 2020, 05:02:32 PM »
A team can excel in a year in part due to key and random TOs in key games and be 12-1 and possibly not be a great team, just lucky, and then they don't get TOs in a playoff and get smoked.


Okay, but it doesn't just happen.  If they play a team especially good at not turning it over, that matters, and if it's in a playoff, it's an elite team overall.  
You're going to cause fewer turnovers vs an elite team than vs the average of a 12-game schedule - and it works that way for both teams, so the one that causes more turnovers still has that advantage.
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

CWSooner

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Re: Will the CFP Committee be influenced by past year results?
« Reply #29 on: February 02, 2020, 11:13:21 PM »
yea, like the Sooners
We sure as hell weren't living off takeaways.  More like "despite the lack" of them.
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CWSooner

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Re: Will the CFP Committee be influenced by past year results?
« Reply #30 on: February 02, 2020, 11:14:43 PM »
a - even if OU won, they still gave up 45 points in regulation.  Yes, that's still crap defense.
b - OU's defense has improved a lot...and STILL isn't among the defenses of the NC-level teams....which speaks to how bad it was before.
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Big comebacks are less impressive and more predictable vs a crap defense. 
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Anyway, in 2019, LSU's defense was much worse than in previous championship incarnations, but was still appreciably better than OU's.  LSU's worsening AND OU's improvement and still there is a void between them.  That's the point.
Then I guess Georgia had a crap WAC defense too.
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OrangeAfroMan

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Re: Will the CFP Committee be influenced by past year results?
« Reply #31 on: February 02, 2020, 11:57:23 PM »
Right, because a 13 game sample = a 1 game sample.   :67:
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

bayareabadger

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Re: Will the CFP Committee be influenced by past year results?
« Reply #32 on: February 03, 2020, 12:00:30 AM »
Okay, but it doesn't just happen.  If they play a team especially good at not turning it over, that matters, and if it's in a playoff, it's an elite team overall. 
You're going to cause fewer turnovers vs an elite team than vs the average of a 12-game schedule - and it works that way for both teams, so the one that causes more turnovers still has that advantage.
Turnovers are just kinda noisy. They tend to fluctuate a good bit, especially fumbles. Basically, fumbling/not fumbling are skills, as are batting balls in the secondary. But catching those batted balls tends to go up and down a good bit, and recovering fumbles tends to be a complete crapshoot. Usually when folks look year-over-year, a team that forces a bunch of turnovers tends to be a great regression candidate. (Turnover returns tend to be even more weird)

Again, turnovers are great for saying, this is what happened. They're mostly middling for saying "will this team be good in the next game." They're kind of blocky pieces of data, kinda like raw win-loss numbers. If nothing else, use something more nuanced like YPP, points per drive or something more advanced like FEI or S&P. 

I mean, you're arguing as a factor for what carries over. If that's the case, you want to strip out the stuff with less predictive value. 

Cincydawg

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Re: Will the CFP Committee be influenced by past year results?
« Reply #33 on: February 03, 2020, 02:07:04 AM »
I used the term random turnovers.  A team might benefit from them during the season and then not benefit in a single game.

Statistics.

OrangeAfroMan

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Re: Will the CFP Committee be influenced by past year results?
« Reply #34 on: February 04, 2020, 01:51:59 PM »
Both of you are right, but it's not regression to the overall mean, it's regression to that team-season's mean.  Turnovers are not predictive season to season, but within a season, I'm still going to argue it's a different case.

Yes, fumble recoveries tend to be 50/50 in the long run.  But an individual team-season may have players and/or scheme that causes more fumbles, resulting in a larger quantity of net recoveries.  Same with interceptions.  Yes, the random errant pass can hit your DB in the numbers, but there'a  baseline of that for everyone.  But due to players and/or scheme, more INT opporutnities may come a team's way and thus - more net interceptions.

I guess what I'm saying is everything you said is right AND what I'm saying is right.  I'm the king of deferring to the rules of statistics, and I don't believe I'm resisting them in what I'm saying.
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

OrangeAfroMan

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Re: Will the CFP Committee be influenced by past year results?
« Reply #35 on: February 04, 2020, 01:53:33 PM »
I used the term random turnovers.  A team might benefit from them during the season and then not benefit in a single game.

Statistics.
Yes, a 1-game sample means almost anything can happen.  However, good teams tend to beat bad teams in any one-game sample...good RBs tend to run for a lot of yards in any one game sample and teams that create a lot of turnovers are more likely to cause more than their opponent in any one game sample.
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

Cincydawg

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Re: Will the CFP Committee be influenced by past year results?
« Reply #36 on: February 06, 2020, 04:21:47 AM »
Random turnovers are by definition random, period.  They fluctuate unpredictably, and no past performance can possibly suggest future probability, ever.

OrangeAfroMan

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Re: Will the CFP Committee be influenced by past year results?
« Reply #37 on: February 06, 2020, 01:28:11 PM »
Then what's an example of a "random turnover"?  It would have to be one you're certain was not caused or created by scheme or players.  
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

MrNubbz

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Re: Will the CFP Committee be influenced by past year results?
« Reply #38 on: February 06, 2020, 02:30:56 PM »
Forced or unforced they are still random.Situation,circumstance,chance and opportunity are unpredictable.
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OrangeAfroMan

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Re: Will the CFP Committee be influenced by past year results?
« Reply #39 on: February 06, 2020, 06:49:31 PM »
Who recovers fumbles tends to be random, but no, turnovers themselves (or the number of them) are certainly not random.  
Utah State is a good example - they've been among the national leaders in turnovers the past 3 years.  Syracuse, UCF, among others seem to emphasize causing turnovers.  
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The idea that all turnovers are simply random makes you wonder why coaches spend time on tip drills and stripping ball-carriers or even bother with zone blitzes and disguised coverages.  
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“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

Kris60

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Re: Will the CFP Committee be influenced by past year results?
« Reply #40 on: February 06, 2020, 07:52:06 PM »
Who recovers fumbles tends to be random, but no, turnovers themselves (or the number of them) are certainly not random. 
Utah State is a good example - they've been among the national leaders in turnovers the past 3 years.  Syracuse, UCF, among others seem to emphasize causing turnovers. 
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The idea that all turnovers are simply random makes you wonder why coaches spend time on tip drills and stripping ball-carriers or even bother with zone blitzes and disguised coverages. 
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Yeah, but even though Utah St may have been among the nation’s leaders the last 3 years would you feel comfortable predicting they will be this season?  The next 3 seasons?

I’d feel pretty confident laying money Alabama will finish in the AP top 25 next season.  I’d feel pretty confident betting Navy will be among the nation’s rushing leaders.  Pretty confident Oklahoma will be among the highest scoring teams in the nation.  I wouldn’t feel confident at all predicting what team is going to be in the top 10 in forcing turnovers.

OrangeAfroMan

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Re: Will the CFP Committee be influenced by past year results?
« Reply #41 on: February 06, 2020, 08:24:22 PM »
Well of course, you're more confident in predicting the overall quality of a team more than it's turnover ability because you've been predicting and paying attention to the former since you were a kid and you haven't really studied the latter at all.  
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Both have numerous aspects - almost too many to count.  
When it comes to turnovers, it would be no more difficult to become confident in it than it has been ranking teams overall.
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You predict Alabama will be good because you're well-versed in many of the major aspects that determine that outcome.  You know their perceived talent level is elite.  You know their HC is great.  You know they can afford all the things elite programs want/need.  You know their record going back a few years.  Blah blah blah.  Any one of us is an expert in the things that comprise a very good team.
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When it comes to turnovers, are any of us an expert?  Is the DC the same as last year?  How many starters returning?  Good pass rush?  Great CB or Safety?  Is the CB good enough to play really well but not so elite that QBs avoid him?  Do the players go for big hits or wrap up?  Do they have unique blitz packages?  Are the 4 new starters influencing what the DC feels he should call in certain downs and distances?  Do the DBs tend to get their head around?  How's their cardio - do they trail plays full-go or barely jogging?  
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Just because these specific aspects aren't in all the preseason mags, I'm not going to shrug and say we can't know these things.  And to be honest, we don't have to know them, just acknowledge they exist and have some confidence that these aspects add up to something tangible and quite the opposite of random.
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

 

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