header pic

Perhaps the BEST B1G Forum anywhere, here at College Football Fan Site, CFB51!!!

The 'Old' CFN/Scout Crowd- Enjoy Civil discussion, game analytics, in depth player and coaching 'takes' and discussing topics surrounding the game. You can even have your own free board, all you have to do is ask!!!

Anyone is welcomed and encouraged to join our FREE site and to take part in our community- a community with you- the user, the fan, -and the person- will be protected from intrusive actions and with a clean place to interact.


Author

Topic: White Out Your Life 9/29/18 SOC

 (Read 17980 times)

FearlessF

  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 37483
  • Liked:
Re: White Out Your Life 9/29/18 SOC
« Reply #238 on: October 02, 2018, 10:07:59 PM »
I'm surprised by the seemingly near-consensus of "the play didn't work, so it was a bad play call" here.  
I'm in the "near" camp and not in the "consensus" camp
I actually think it's a very good call vs the defensive call.  The D-line stunts outside, leaving LBs and safeties in the middle.  If the O-line isn't completely confused and absolutely whiffs on 3 of 5 blocks the play could spring for a big gain up the middle.
on the other hand, if your O-line is easily confused and prone to whiffing on anything more complex than a simple dive, then it's a bad call.
"Courage; Generosity; Fairness; Honor; In these are the true awards of manly sport."

FearlessF

  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 37483
  • Liked:
"Courage; Generosity; Fairness; Honor; In these are the true awards of manly sport."

Mdot21

  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 14330
  • Liked:
Re: White Out Your Life 9/29/18 SOC
« Reply #240 on: October 03, 2018, 12:30:43 AM »
So the entire team sucks except for the qb recruit because he was the #1 recruit in the nation a few years ago. Got it.

And somehow Higdon sucks even though he’s the only Michigan player to find the end zone this week, which he happened to find twicle. Hopefully when Patterson is done walking on water, he can actually throw for a touchdown. The Messiah threw for zero touchdowns against The Irish and Northwestern. He had a staggering 120 yards passing against Nebraska.

I’m confident Patterson will put up good numbers against poor defenses, but it’s going to be a hard landing after he faces Wisconsin, State and PSU in consecutive games. Like I said, I’ll happily eat crow.

To be clear, I’m not saying he can’t throw the ball. He throws a very nice ball. He doesn’t have the IT. He doesn’t have the moxie or the special factor in my eyes. I spend about 3  hours a week watching football, so I’m clearly not the expect, but just my take. He proves me wrong, we’re both happy campers.
Never said the entire team sucks. Some starters and players who get starting like minutes (*cough* McKeon) sure do suck though.
Never said Higdon sucks either. Said Michigan fans need to stop pumping him up. He's nothing more than an average starting B1G RB. Solid player. That's it. Kind of kid that should be starting at Purdue or Minnesota. At Michigan? Nope. Not if Michigan wants to become an elite program. Not going to ever be an elite program with that RB. Yes, he scored twice. Both runs were set up by Patterson marching that team down the field. And both runs were very short runs near the NW goal-line. And both runs he had holes you could drive a semi-truck through. Both runs Ruiz and Onwenu destroyed the defensive tackle and Mason ethered the LB'er. Can't block it any better than those three guys did. I could've scored TD's on those plays. Higdon also lost yards or got one or none yards on a significant amount of his carries. He averaged just over 3.5 yards per carry. He had a few giant holes that he got very little out of, whereas the elite backs would've popped for big gains. Higdon also failed to get that 1st down that would've sealed the game. He just dove into a tackler a yard short of the 1st down. Was a really weird move on his part. Didn't try to put a move on, make him miss or didn't try to just run over him. Just dove into him and the tackler kinda shoved him to the ground.
Hard to throw touchdowns in the red zone when the play callers try and throw fades to Grant Perry. Who is 5'11 max. Where are the goal-line fades to their 6'7+ TE Zach Gentry, 6'4+ WR Nico Collins, or 6'2+ DPJ with an insane 45" vertical. Hard to throw TD passes when you are throwing the ball 22 times a game on average. He had 120 yards passing vs Nebraska because he threw the ball like 15 times. And they didn't call any deep shots. Where the hell is Ambry Thomas or DPJ on deep routes? They have two insanely fast deep threats that they don't even try to use.
Patterson is far from the problem. Jim Harbaugh's offenses flat out suck. The RB talent is mediocre. The starting offensive tackles suck. The play calling system sucks. There is zero urgency or tempo on offense. Zero creativity or innovation in the pass game. Harbaugh is to blame. Period. It's his offense. It's his mess of an offense I should say. He could fix it easily. Fire Pep Hamilton. Hire a legitimate offensive co-ordinator. Then let that co-ordinator run the offense and call the plays. Stay out. Problem solved. Jim won't do that though. He's too much of a control freak and head case and ego maniac. Unfortunately it will be his down fall and keep this program from moving to the next level.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2018, 01:05:13 AM by Mdot21 »

bayareabadger

  • Legend
  • ****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 7849
  • Liked:
Re: White Out Your Life 9/29/18 SOC
« Reply #241 on: October 03, 2018, 11:35:45 AM »
I'll cop to it. I was wrong. It was weirdly pure inside zone.

It's interesting, on the one hand, it produced a backside line that was pretty wide, but you'd have PSU's RB trying to beat two OSU backers who jumped outside to the spot. Didn't matter because they flubbed the frontside blocking.

In some ways, if you think about it, there's a nice lesson of play-calling. The call and the response were sort of classic chess moves. But sometimes you just have to say, give the ball to the good player and let him do things (A friend and I argued this over the Braxton Miller outside zone run in the 2013 Big Ten title game)

(Just as I write this, Ross Dellinger, esteemed scheme head/writer for SI, calls it a zone read RPO. I got nothing)
« Last Edit: October 03, 2018, 12:40:44 PM by bayareabadger »

MrNubbz

  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 17122
  • Liked:
Re: White Out Your Life 9/29/18 SOC
« Reply #242 on: October 03, 2018, 03:37:46 PM »
Admitting you are wrong is the 1st step in recovery :105: -I kid,I kid.Things got over analyzed - it's football - read & react.It cracks me up all the different names given to the variety of formations and schemes.Yogi Berra once said "you can't think and hit at the same time"IMO that applies to football also - so much of it is improvisational.And way too many times formation or intent are disguised or flat out spoofed to confuse the opposition.The immediate hand off from McSorley didn't look anywhere except to Sanders.Herbstreit recognized it - he gets his chops busted a lot but he's dialed in IMO.Was a great game to watch - that took a couple of years of my life that I can ill afford to lose at this time
« Last Edit: October 03, 2018, 04:39:36 PM by MrNubbz »
Suburbia:Where they tear out the trees & then name streets after them.

bayareabadger

  • Legend
  • ****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 7849
  • Liked:
Re: White Out Your Life 9/29/18 SOC
« Reply #243 on: October 03, 2018, 05:19:15 PM »
Admitting you are wrong is the 1st step in recovery :105: -I kid,I kid.Things got over analyzed - it's football - read & react.It cracks me up all the different names given to the variety of formations and schemes.Yogi Berra once said "you can't think and hit at the same time"IMO that applies to football also - so much of it is improvisational.And way too many times formation or intent are disguised or flat out spoofed to confuse the opposition.The immediate hand off from McSorley didn't look anywhere except to Sanders.Herbstreit recognized it - he gets his chops busted a lot but he's dialed in IMO.Was a great game to watch - that took a couple of years of my life that I can ill afford to lose at this time
he literally called it a zone read as it happened. 

MrNubbz

  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 17122
  • Liked:
Re: White Out Your Life 9/29/18 SOC
« Reply #244 on: October 03, 2018, 06:44:45 PM »
before that he states he was shocked,why not put the ball in to the hands of Trace McSorley with option to throw or run.Indicating it was a bad call to go to Sanders.Either way it was a designed run.There was a lot of action/emotion and I never really listened past the tackle except that he said it was a bad call(to hand off)
« Last Edit: October 03, 2018, 06:53:56 PM by MrNubbz »
Suburbia:Where they tear out the trees & then name streets after them.

Honestbuckeye

  • Team Captain
  • *******
  • Posts: 5796
  • Liked:
Re: White Out Your Life 9/29/18 SOC
« Reply #245 on: October 04, 2018, 07:35:59 AM »
before that he states he was shocked,why not put the ball in to the hands of Trace McSorley with option to throw or run.Indicating it was a bad call to go to Sanders.Either way it was a designed run.There was a lot of action/emotion and I never really listened past the tackle except that he said it was a bad call(to hand off)
Lol.   Still talking about this, despite it being completely settles by SB Nation and Sports illustrates.
The only way is was a designed run is IF they were told to run the read option with RPO , which is how they aligned and what they did, but to handoff regardless of the defensive movements.
I suppose that is possible, although we may never know.  But that would be incredibly stupid, basically reducing the chances of success by two thirds. I still would wager that no Div 1 coach would be that dumb, but rather they were confident option 1 ( the handoff) of the three options on the play would be open.
Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please.
-Mark Twain

TyphonInc

  • Starter
  • *****
  • Posts: 1929
  • Easily Amused
  • Liked:
Re: White Out Your Life 9/29/18 SOC
« Reply #246 on: October 04, 2018, 08:07:40 AM »
Lol.   Still talking about this, despite it being completely settles by SB Nation and Sports illustrates.
Really HB? I thought it was completely settled when the PSU Head Coach, Offensive Coordinator, Quarterback, and Running Back all called it a running play.*
*See quotes and links up-thread 

Honestbuckeye

  • Team Captain
  • *******
  • Posts: 5796
  • Liked:
Re: White Out Your Life 9/29/18 SOC
« Reply #247 on: October 04, 2018, 08:31:47 AM »
Really HB? I thought it was completely settled when the PSU Head Coach, Offensive Coordinator, Quarterback, and Running Back all called it a running play.*
*See quotes and links up-thread
Yes , those words were said. But never was it said that the zone read/RPO formation, which is on film, and movements, which are on film and not disputable as proven  by the expert analysis I have now seen on three websites, were instructions to run and ignore both the keep and throw options.
What I take from those comments is they thought that first option, the run option, would specifically be wide open, specifically based on OSUs previous defensive alignment and movements against third down passing situations.
Now, is it possible that McSorley was told to handoff regardless?  Yes.  But nobody has actually said that.
My original point, that the play was not just a dive or draw, is proven beyond any doubt.  They ran the alignment and movements of a zone read with an RPO.  It may have been a decoy- we will never know.  I highly doubt even that though, as the comments combined with common sense tell me that they just assumed the run would be there big time. I don’t find it credible that the instructions given to McSorley would be to eliminate your other options on purpose.

I find interesting that comments, which are open to tons of interpretation, are being used as evidence to make a point, versus actual film proving the opposite.
Again, just watch the film, or listen to the experts breaking down the film.

Also, it was a running play.  That has never been in question.  That’s what a zone read is.  If the RPO is never triggered, or if that part was nothing more than a decoy, then is was “ intended” to only be a running play. 

But if someone says it was a “designed” running play, that is not accurate.  You could say it was intended to be a running play, from a play designed to give the qb 3 options.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2018, 08:38:25 AM by Honestbuckeye »
Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please.
-Mark Twain

MaximumSam

  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 13079
  • Liked:
Re: White Out Your Life 9/29/18 SOC
« Reply #248 on: October 04, 2018, 09:12:18 AM »
The great run/pass debate of 2018!

My contribution:

I thought it was weird calling it an RPO, because that is the relatively new trend of reading a safety or linebacker and whether they play run or pass and then doing the opposite, but that is usually on a slant route in the middle of the field.  Reading a linebacker or safety on whether they cover the screen has been around forever, but no one really called them RPO's, despite the fact that yes, they are run/pass options.

In any event, everyone can be right.  The reason they set up the screen is to move a Buckeye defender out of the middle of the field to make it easier to run.  Had no one moved over there they probably would have passed it, but that's like saying if if no one covers a receiver throw it to them.  It rarely occurs that a defense completely forgets to cover a receiver (counterpoint see Florida/Kentucky 2017). 

FearlessF

  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 37483
  • Liked:
Re: White Out Your Life 9/29/18 SOC
« Reply #249 on: October 04, 2018, 09:21:52 AM »
there you go

EVERYBODY can be right
"Courage; Generosity; Fairness; Honor; In these are the true awards of manly sport."

MrNubbz

  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 17122
  • Liked:
Re: White Out Your Life 9/29/18 SOC
« Reply #250 on: October 04, 2018, 09:51:00 AM »
No participation trophies - the coaches/players involved said it was a designed run,good enough for me
« Last Edit: October 04, 2018, 10:20:44 AM by MrNubbz »
Suburbia:Where they tear out the trees & then name streets after them.

Brutus Buckeye

  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 11234
  • Liked:
Re: White Out Your Life 9/29/18 SOC
« Reply #251 on: October 04, 2018, 09:57:05 AM »
I think Nubbz and HB should duke it out. 
1919, 20, 21, 28, 29, 31, 34, 35, 36, 37, 42, 44
WWH: 1952, 54, 55, 57, 58, 60, 61, 62, 63, 65, 67, 68, 70, 72, 74, 75
1979, 81, 82, 84, 87, 94, 98
2001, 02, 04, 05, 06, 07, 08, 09, 10, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19

 

Support the Site!
Purchase of every item listed here DIRECTLY supports the site.