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Topic: When we go to an 8-team CFP would you prohibit rematches?

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medinabuckeye1

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Re: When we go to an 8-team CFP would you prohibit rematches?
« Reply #28 on: July 17, 2020, 10:14:46 AM »
I'm mildly surprised that prohibiting rematches got more votes than prohibiting games between teams from the same conference.  

From my perspective, I'd rather prohibit games between teams from the same conference because those are games we see reasonably frequently even if not that year.  For example, if Ohio State and Oklahoma played then re-matched in the CFP the same year I don't mind that.  We don't get to see tOSU/OU very often so I don't mind seeing it twice in a year.  On the other hand, if Ohio State missed Wisconsin in a given year I'd rather not see them play Wisconsin in the CFP because tOSU/UW is a reasonably frequent occurrence and I'd rather see games we don't normally see.  

Example:
Suppose that Bama and tOSU lost only close games to LSU and PSU respectively and both missed their CG thus ending up as the two highest ranked non-Champions and getting the #5 and #6 seeds.  Then suppose that LSU and PSU lost the SECCG and B1GCG to Florida and Wisconsin.  Further, suppose that both the SECCG and B1GCG results were major upsets as UF had four and UW three losses.  

So the teams relevant to this example end up being:

  • #3 seed Wisconsin at 10-3
  • #4 seed Florida at 9-4
  • #5 seed Bama at 11-1
  • #6 seed tOSU at 11-1

If we just played according to seed the match-ups among those four would be:
  • #6 11-1 tOSU at #3 10-3 Wisconsin
  • #5 11-1 Bama at #4 9-4 Florida

My thinking here is that tOSU/UW and Bama/UF are games that we see reasonably frequently.  I'd rather see games that we don't see very often:
  • #6 11-1 tOSU at #4 9-4 Florida
  • #5 11-1 Bama at #3 10-3 Wisconsin

Ie, would you rather see tOSU in the Swamp and Bama in Camp Randall or tOSU in Camp Randall and Bama in the Swamp?  


Per Stassen:
  • tOSU has played UW 61 times, 27 in Madison
  • Bama has played UF 41 times, 10 in Gainesville
  • Bama has played UW twice, once in Madison
  • tOSU has played UF twice, never in Gainesville


I'd rather the CFP provide us with once-in-a-generation games such as Buckeyes in the Swamp and Tide in the Camp than frequent match-ups such as Bama@UF and tOSU@UW.  

betarhoalphadelta

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Re: When we go to an 8-team CFP would you prohibit rematches?
« Reply #29 on: July 17, 2020, 10:43:51 AM »
I'm mildly surprised that prohibiting rematches got more votes than prohibiting games between teams from the same conference. 

From my perspective, I'd rather prohibit games between teams from the same conference because those are games we see reasonably frequently even if not that year.  For example, if Ohio State and Oklahoma played then re-matched in the CFP the same year I don't mind that.  We don't get to see tOSU/OU very often so I don't mind seeing it twice in a year.  On the other hand, if Ohio State missed Wisconsin in a given year I'd rather not see them play Wisconsin in the CFP because tOSU/UW is a reasonably frequent occurrence and I'd rather see games we don't normally see. 
I prefer in the first round, if it is feasible, to avoid both rematches and games with teams from the same conference. 

A few points:

  • Rematches are not preferred if they can be avoided because the idea of a playoff is "settle it on the field", and these are two teams that settled it on the field already. Yes, if they are both good enough to qualify for the playoff there's always a chance a rematch is possible (either in the semifinal or the championship game), but given that teams have 12-13 games a season and there are 130 FBS teams, it's better to avoid rematches unless both teams have passed a few hurdles to get there. This is especially true if its OOC, as if tOSU/OU have played each other (a rare game) once in the season already, you want to see both teams matched up against ANYONE else in the first round.
  • One aspect for prohibiting teams from the same conference is similar to the above, that with 12-13 games a season and only 3-4 non-con games, you don't want to unfairly winnow down teams from the same conference by making them play each other in the first round. If one conference is much superior to another it's entirely possible that the 2nd best team from that conference is better than any team from another conference. Conferences still matter, at least to us fans, so pitting conference foes against each other in the first round means a few things. First, the conference is punished in that they're mathematically unable to get more than one team into the semifinals. Second, the conference is rewarded in that they're guaranteed to get at least one team into the semifinals. Avoiding conference games in the first round means that a conference can get 0, 1, or 2 teams [or 3 in some rare years] into the semis, and that it'll be on their own merits rather than eliminating each other.
  • Some may have voted as they did on the basis that avoiding conference non-rematches will be a rare scenario anyway, because teams play their own conference mates most often. Many times that you've got two teams from the same conference into the CFP you'd find them already eliminated from playing each other due to the rematch rule. So it might not come up often enough to require a rule.

My 2 cents anyway...


847badgerfan

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Re: When we go to an 8-team CFP would you prohibit rematches?
« Reply #30 on: July 17, 2020, 10:59:52 AM »
@medinabuckeye1 

Bama did not play in Madison. They wanted it to be neutral, so it was.
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medinabuckeye1

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Re: When we go to an 8-team CFP would you prohibit rematches?
« Reply #31 on: July 17, 2020, 11:07:18 AM »
@medinabuckeye1
Bama did not play in Madison. They wanted it to be neutral, so it was.
According to Stassen Bama and Wisconsin have played twice:
  • A 35-17 Bama win in Arlington, TX on September 5, 2015 and
  • A 15-0 Wisconsin win on November 3, 1928. 
That second one is listed as "@ Wisconsin".  I assume it was in Madison, no? 

EDIT:  When I said "second", I meant the second one I listed which was the first one played, the 1928 game.  

medinabuckeye1

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Re: When we go to an 8-team CFP would you prohibit rematches?
« Reply #32 on: July 17, 2020, 11:27:52 AM »
I prefer in the first round, if it is feasible, to avoid both rematches and games with teams from the same conference.

A few points:

  • Rematches are not preferred if they can be avoided because the idea of a playoff is "settle it on the field", and these are two teams that settled it on the field already. Yes, if they are both good enough to qualify for the playoff there's always a chance a rematch is possible (either in the semifinal or the championship game), but given that teams have 12-13 games a season and there are 130 FBS teams, it's better to avoid rematches unless both teams have passed a few hurdles to get there. This is especially true if its OOC, as if tOSU/OU have played each other (a rare game) once in the season already, you want to see both teams matched up against ANYONE else in the first round.
  • One aspect for prohibiting teams from the same conference is similar to the above, that with 12-13 games a season and only 3-4 non-con games, you don't want to unfairly winnow down teams from the same conference by making them play each other in the first round. If one conference is much superior to another it's entirely possible that the 2nd best team from that conference is better than any team from another conference. Conferences still matter, at least to us fans, so pitting conference foes against each other in the first round means a few things. First, the conference is punished in that they're mathematically unable to get more than one team into the semifinals. Second, the conference is rewarded in that they're guaranteed to get at least one team into the semifinals. Avoiding conference games in the first round means that a conference can get 0, 1, or 2 teams [or 3 in some rare years] into the semis, and that it'll be on their own merits rather than eliminating each other.
  • Some may have voted as they did on the basis that avoiding conference non-rematches will be a rare scenario anyway, because teams play their own conference mates most often. Many times that you've got two teams from the same conference into the CFP you'd find them already eliminated from playing each other due to the rematch rule. So it might not come up often enough to require a rule.
My 2 cents anyway...
I agree with everything you said and I started out advocating avoiding both rematches and games between teams from the same conference for those reasons.  

What altered my perspective somewhat was the point made in this thread that avoiding rematches/conference games could substantially alter the quality of a team's opposition.  

The best example I have readily available is to suppose that tOSU had been the #1 seed in 2019 (assume LSU lost a game) and Cincy had been the G5 eight seed (assume they beat Memphis).  In that case, Ohio State would have earned that #1 seed and the attendant easier first round game.  It would be unfair to say "well they already played Cincy so instead they have to take on a viable, P5 opponent."  The #1 seed (whoever it is, not just my school) earned an easy first round game against a G5 pretender, I wouldn't want to take that away from them.  

I guess my position now is that rematches and games between teams from the same conference should be avoided in the first round provided that avoiding them doesn't create too much difference in quality of opponent with the definition of "too much" still in discussion.  

betarhoalphadelta

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Re: When we go to an 8-team CFP would you prohibit rematches?
« Reply #33 on: July 17, 2020, 11:58:21 AM »
I guess my position now is that rematches and games between teams from the same conference should be avoided in the first round provided that avoiding them doesn't create too much difference in quality of opponent with the definition of "too much" still in discussion. 
Yeah, my original vote was to "prohibit" rematches, but that wording is stronger than I currently support for the very reason mentioned.

If it screws up the inherent idea of seeding in the first place by giving opponents significantly weaker or stronger opponents than they should play due to normal seeding, then you go with straight seeding. If you can minimally flip teams to avoid significant difference, then rematches/conference games should be avoided.

847badgerfan

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Re: When we go to an 8-team CFP would you prohibit rematches?
« Reply #34 on: July 17, 2020, 12:30:36 PM »
According to Stassen Bama and Wisconsin have played twice:
  • A 35-17 Bama win in Arlington, TX on September 5, 2015 and
  • A 15-0 Wisconsin win on November 3, 1928. 
That second one is listed as "@ Wisconsin".  I assume it was in Madison, no? 

EDIT:  When I said "second", I meant the second one I listed which was the first one played, the 1928 game. 
Got it.
U RAH RAH! WIS CON SIN!

 

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