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Topic: Week 9 top-25 at-a-glance

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MrNubbz

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Re: Week 9 top-25 at-a-glance
« Reply #14 on: October 21, 2025, 01:13:55 PM »
I will find it interesting if it does play out with OSU winning out and Michigan winning out until The Game. Will it lessen the importance to OSU? On the surface i would say no, but it's not a must win like it would be for Michigan.
It's ALWAYS a must win
"The problem with the world is that the intelligent people are full of doubts, while the dense people are full of confidence." - Charles Bukowski

medinabuckeye1

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Re: Week 9 top-25 at-a-glance
« Reply #15 on: October 21, 2025, 02:32:06 PM »
I think the USC loss was their mulligan, but besides that I agree with that. What's really interesting is Michigan wouldn't have to worry about the Big10 championship game, where a 3rd loss could possibly knock them out of the playoffs if they did beat OSU.

I will find it interesting if it does play out with OSU winning out and Michigan winning out until The Game. Will it lessen the importance to OSU? On the surface i would say no, but it's not a must win like it would be for Michigan.
Well it depends on the strength of "the bubble" but at this point I think:
  • Michigan is in at 9-3 with a win over tOSU and a loss to MSU/PU/NU/UMD.  
  • Michigan is out at 9-3 with a loss to tOSU and wins over MSU/PU/NU/UMD.  

You brought up the CG and my observation has been that the committee has been VERY hesitant to punish a team for losing a game that they earned their way into so I agree that Michigan wouldn't have to worry about the CG because I think that Michigan is absolutely in at 10-3 by winning out to the CG and then losing the CG.  The only scenario where I think a CG loss might knock Michigan out is if they lost to one of MSU/PU/NU/UMD, beat tOSU, then lose the CG.  At that point the problem is that the win in The Game looks distinctly like an anomaly.  They'd be 1-3 in games against ranked teams (possibly better if USC/UNL/UDub sneak in).  That doesn't look like a great team, it looks like a not-so-great team that pulled off one good win (like FSU).  

Back to the CG:
Assuming that Michigan and Ohio State win out to The Game and then Michigan wins, they would both be 8-1.  Michigan would win a two-way tie based on H2H but there is a strong possibility that Oregon would also be 8-1 and Indiana could lose a game and finish 8-1 as well.  In any of those scenarios H2H would be cast aside and the tie would be broken based on league winning percentage of league opponents.  Among those teams at this point that is:
  • .500 Oregon
  • .417 Michigan
  • .361 Ohio State
  • .333 Indiana
To get to the CG Michigan would most likely need for either Oregon or Indiana to lose a game.  As of right now:

Three-way tie at 8-1 between tOSU/M/Ore for second (assumes IU is 9-0): Ducks/Hoosiers in the CG.  

Three-way tie at 8-1 between tOSU/M/IU for first (assumes all others are 7-2 or worse):  Buckeyes/Wolverines in the CG.  

Two way tie at 8-1 between tOSU/M for second (assumes IU is 9-0 and all others are 7-2 or worse):  Wolverines/Hoosiers in the CG.  

I think that covers all the plausible possibilities involving Michigan.  

medinabuckeye1

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Re: Week 9 top-25 at-a-glance
« Reply #16 on: October 21, 2025, 02:33:26 PM »
It's ALWAYS a must win
It is for us as fans but . . .

In the NIL/transfer portal era do the players feel that way?  I'm sure there are plenty of Ohio kids who grew up cheering for Ohio State and for them it is but for the mercenaries playing for us solely because we were the highest bidder, do they care?  

MrNubbz

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Re: Week 9 top-25 at-a-glance
« Reply #17 on: October 21, 2025, 04:13:36 PM »
Bama has beaten 4 ranked teams in a row with out having a bye week,dayum - Georgia,Vandy,Mizzou,Vols. But that lost to FSU isn't looking good they way they have taken a dive.perhaps a combination of Tide resurgance and the rest of the SEC-SEC slip sliding away.Not sure sure who is the most dangerous out there right now Tide,Hoosiers or the 'Canes - CRAZY.
"The problem with the world is that the intelligent people are full of doubts, while the dense people are full of confidence." - Charles Bukowski

SuperMario

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Re: Week 9 top-25 at-a-glance
« Reply #18 on: October 21, 2025, 09:17:46 PM »
It is for us as fans but . . .

In the NIL/transfer portal era do the players feel that way?  I'm sure there are plenty of Ohio kids who grew up cheering for Ohio State and for them it is but for the mercenaries playing for us solely because we were the highest bidder, do they care? 
This is such a phenomenal question to pose.

betarhoalphadelta

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Re: Week 9 top-25 at-a-glance
« Reply #19 on: October 21, 2025, 09:30:48 PM »
It is for us as fans but . . .

In the NIL/transfer portal era do the players feel that way?  I'm sure there are plenty of Ohio kids who grew up cheering for Ohio State and for them it is but for the mercenaries playing for us solely because we were the highest bidder, do they care? 
This is such a phenomenal question to pose.
I dunno... I think there's still a "team culture" aspect that can't be overlooked.

Look to the NFL. They're all mercenaries. But there are some rivalries that are real, and it certainly seems like the players care. I think there's a level of team culture that persists in those locker rooms that make rivalries important. 

I don't see that NIL / transfer portal can kill that. It might reduce it, to an extent, but I don't think it'll kill it. 

medinabuckeye1

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Re: Week 9 top-25 at-a-glance
« Reply #20 on: Today at 11:33:32 AM »
I dunno... I think there's still a "team culture" aspect that can't be overlooked.

Look to the NFL. They're all mercenaries. But there are some rivalries that are real, and it certainly seems like the players care. I think there's a level of team culture that persists in those locker rooms that make rivalries important.

I don't see that NIL / transfer portal can kill that. It might reduce it, to an extent, but I don't think it'll kill it.
I think you are right in a way. 

As you guys know, I'm a bit of a history buff and in the reading I've done I've learned that the vast majority of soldiers (same demographic as football players, young men) don't actually fight for ideology so much as 'brotherhood' or basically what you called "team culture". 

It is romantic to think of Union Soldiers or WWII American Soldiers risking life and limb "to free the slaves" or "end the Holocaust" and distasteful to think of Confederate and German WWII Soldiers fighting to "perpetuate slavery" or "support fascism" but in reality only a VERY few viewed those wars in those terms.  They mostly fought because they were on a team.  The view of the average soldier was MUCH narrower than our view looking back.  For the most part they weren't looking at the big picture questions, they were looking at being a part of their team (and I don't mean this on a national or even divisional level but more of a squad level) defeating the pillbox in front of them or taking hill #372 or somesuch miniscule piece of the overall situation. 

One little note on this:
Admirals and Generals for generations were aware of this at least conceptually and it was one of the reasons that they resisted splitting up the kids from the same hometown.  Many of "the brass" thought that soldiers would fight harder if they were in units with their brothers, cousins, neighbors, etc than they would if they were thrown in with a bunch of strangers. 

This led to some very unfortunate results.  In warfare if one side takes say 10% casualties it isn't usually randomly every 10th guy.  If an Admiral sends out 10 ships each with 100 crewmen and one of them gets suck you don't lose 10 guys from each ship, you lose all 100 guys from one ship.  Similarly, on land, if a general sends out 1,000 guys to take a given objective and 100 of them are killed it isn't usually 10% of each regiment.  Instead it is typically something more like 90% of the one regiment that got cut off and 1% each of the others. 

A well known example of the potential results of keeping guys from the same area together is the case of the Sullivan Brothers.  They were five brothers who all served together on the USS Juneau and all died when that ship was sunk in what became known as Ironbottom Sound (due to all the ships sunk there).  There are plenty of other examples.  Due to the geographic organization of most Civil War units some American towns saw nearly their entire population of young men wiped out while others saw few or no causalities. 

So back to football:
I think you are right at least in so far as it concerns the players immediate motivation.  It really isn't to win for "the school" so much as to win for "their team", what you called "team culture".  That said, however, from that perspective does it really matter who the guys on the opposite sideline are?  They could be Wolverines, Boilermakers, Badgers, whatever the only thing that matters is that they are "the other". 

Edit to add that I'd be interested to hear @SFBadger96 's thoughts.  

SFBadger96

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Re: Week 9 top-25 at-a-glance
« Reply #21 on: Today at 01:31:15 PM »
Well that's a big topic...

The best way to build effective teams is through effective leadership. And yes, teams generally fight for the person next to them more than some intangible thing. That said, any well-led organization has a mission statement that everyone understands and believes in, from the very top to the very bottom. One of the best ways to get people to fight for each other (I don't mean just warfare, I mean putting all they have into the problem they are trying to solve) is for them to believe that they are fighting together for the same thing. Mission matters. Values matter. Those help bond the people who are next to each other, whether in a foxhole, on the defensive line, in the mailroom, or in the boardroom. There is a natural bond--a common set of values--you get from family, friends, and other tribes that we belong to together. But that's really what it comes down to: the people believing in the tribe they are a part of. In the warfare context, where the human desire to survive is literally our strongest instinct, it isn't at all surprising that the guy next to you--fighting literally for the same thing, his survival--is your most obvious tribe.

I think when it comes to NIL, coach-shopping, and other things like that, yes, the money certainly helps--and people will resist going somewhere that they don't feel appropriately values them (money is the easiest way to measure that), but seeing that the culture is a positive one helps, and once they get there, being drawn into that culture--which is normally leadership driven--is what builds effective teams. So successful teams have successful cultures. Those cultures include the rivalries and why those things are important. Successful teams are more likely to have strong rivals because that is part of the successful culture.

My favorite sports analogy for this is the Bruce Bochy-led SF Giants and their three championships. Player for player they were never the best team in baseball. But they clearly had a culture that brought out the best in each other when it mattered. That comes from leadership, not paychecks. You have to have a paycheck, but that's not what makes your team come together.

Obviously it's easier if those paychecks bring the very best performing people, e.g., the highest spending teams will have the most talented people to choose from, but they still need effective leadership to perform at their best.

I have other thoughts about the issue of casualties in warfare--that's not necessarily an indication of how effective the unit was; it is often more an indicator of how terrible a situation they were put in. The first wave that hit Omaha Beach could have had the best and brightest top to bottom, they were still wading into an absolute hornets nest. No amount of leadership, unity, esprit d'corps, etc., would have saved most of those men. But they still had to do it. And the leadership higher up realized that and had to make the decision to send them anyway. War really sucks.


betarhoalphadelta

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Re: Week 9 top-25 at-a-glance
« Reply #22 on: Today at 01:37:20 PM »
So back to football:
I think you are right at least in so far as it concerns the players immediate motivation.  It really isn't to win for "the school" so much as to win for "their team", what you called "team culture".  That said, however, from that perspective does it really matter who the guys on the opposite sideline are?  They could be Wolverines, Boilermakers, Badgers, whatever the only thing that matters is that they are "the other".
I agree. I think for the most part, these guys are playing for each other, and for their coaches, primarily. I think ultimately for all the things they say about the fans, the school (for CFB), the city (for NFL), these are more PR than anything. Why do I think that? Because the minute a player moves in the transfer portal or in a trade / free agency, they start talking about how great the fans and the new city/school are, and how happy they are to be there...

But they're all still human, and all still respond to propaganda. If you're a new transfer portal addition at OSU and you've spent all year hearing about how much you HAVE to beat TTUN and how disappointing it would be to lose THAT game, even more so than any other game, I have to believe it'll have an effect. In the way that you prepare, in the way that you enter the game emotionally, everything. Once the ball is kicked off, how much difference does it still make? I don't know. Maybe at that point you're just playing football. But I'd be at least a little surprised if there isn't a bit of carry-over into the game. Especially with what will be outsized fan/crowd reactions above and beyond "typical" games.

medinabuckeye1

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Re: Week 9 top-25 at-a-glance
« Reply #23 on: Today at 02:44:59 PM »
I have other thoughts about the issue of casualties in warfare--that's not necessarily an indication of how effective the unit was; it is often more an indicator of how terrible a situation they were put in. The first wave that hit Omaha Beach could have had the best and brightest top to bottom, they were still wading into an absolute hornets nest. No amount of leadership, unity, esprit d'corps, etc., would have saved most of those men. But they still had to do it. And the leadership higher up realized that and had to make the decision to send them anyway. War really sucks.
100% agree.  I meant this even if I didn't describe it as well as you did.  Most of the time when a unit takes horrendous casualties it is simply because they were in the wrong place at the wrong time.  Your example of the first wave to hit Omaha is spot on.  No matter how smart or tough the individuals were and no matter how good their leadership, unity, etc were, that was going to be bloody.  

OrangeAfroMan

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Re: Week 9 top-25 at-a-glance
« Reply #24 on: Today at 07:23:22 PM »
It is for us as fans but . . .

In the NIL/transfer portal era do the players feel that way?  I'm sure there are plenty of Ohio kids who grew up cheering for Ohio State and for them it is but for the mercenaries playing for us solely because we were the highest bidder, do they care? 
A player would transfer from UM to OSU (and vice versa) if the other offered a dollar more.  We all know this.
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Honestbuckeye

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Re: Week 9 top-25 at-a-glance
« Reply #25 on: Today at 08:07:21 PM »
A player would transfer from UM to OSU (and vice versa) if the other offered a dollar more.  We all know this.
I get the point you are making.  But that is just not true for MANY players.   
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SFBadger96

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Re: Week 9 top-25 at-a-glance
« Reply #26 on: Today at 09:19:51 PM »
For a dollar more? No. For substantially more money, to get more playing time, to be closer to people that matter, to work with a coaching staff and teammates they like better? Sure. But that calculus is different for every player.

Brutus Buckeye

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Re: Week 9 top-25 at-a-glance
« Reply #27 on: Today at 10:05:28 PM »
Wolverines could be poached pre NIL. Boren, Dakich...

 

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