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Topic: Weather, Climate, Environment, and Energy

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MrNubbz

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Re: Weather, Climate, and Environment
« Reply #2352 on: May 09, 2020, 02:12:51 PM »
The message is Life is Tough, and it gets tougher if you believe in Fairy Tales instead of the Cold Hard Truth.  It also pays to keep your mouth shut at times.
 message of Pandora's Box - Hope remains.Why are people called whistle blowers rather than righteous souls or truth tellers.Ramuis was right a little revolution every now and then is a good thing
Suburbia:Where they tear out the trees & then name streets after them.

CWSooner

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Re: Weather, Climate, and Environment
« Reply #2353 on: May 09, 2020, 03:22:57 PM »
At least 10%, certainly in comparison to Trump trying to delay the inevitable, but I don't want to make this a political debate, since this really shouldn't be a political issue in the first place.

Here are Biden's plans:
https://joebiden.com/climate/
https://joebiden.com/9-key-elements-of-joe-bidens-plan-for-a-clean-energy-revolution/ (this is the summary version)

It's largely in line with the most progressive states like California, Hawaii, and New York and developed countries in Europe, though I think with the right people under him he could/would make his plans even more aggressive. His overall strategy is more sensible than Sanders' plans were, but they could be scaled up further and faster.

There's a lot being done at the state and local levels, though. For example, Virginia just passed major legislation to effectively replace its coal generation with renewables and have a plan to transition away from gas, too. Wind generation has already taken off and continues to grow throughout the Great Plains and it's going to be built offshore in the Northeast and California next.... Solar still has a lot of growth potential throughout the country from roof-top to utility-scale systems, especially in southern states, which have more restrictive policies since their utilities are fully regulated and large solar companies like Sunrun can't operate there because customers aren't allowed to get their systems through financing or lease agreements (which have no up-front costs, so they split the savings instead).
I'll echo CD's comments.  Those seem more like political promises than concrete plans.  He may be committed to using executive orders more than any previous president, but for anything lasting he has to get those ideas passed through Congress so that he can sign them into law, and then Congress has to fund it year after year, etc., etc., etc.

I would guess that, assuming he's elected, he'll be able to make a 1% difference if he's lucky.  He's never been a chief executive of anything.  He's been a legislator his entire professional life.  Very different roles.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2020, 03:32:31 PM by CWSooner »
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CWSooner

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Re: Weather, Climate, and Environment
« Reply #2354 on: May 09, 2020, 03:29:06 PM »
message of Pandora's Box - Hope remains.Why are people called whistle blowers rather than righteous souls or truth tellers.Ramuis was right a little revolution every now and then is a good thing
Who's "Ramuis"?
Jefferson said that the tree of liberty needed to be watered with the blood of tyrants and patriots.  That's easy to say in the abstract.  But he wasn't inviting anyone to come shed blood to water any tree of liberty at Monticello.
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MrNubbz

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Re: Weather, Climate, and Environment
« Reply #2355 on: May 09, 2020, 03:35:25 PM »
Marko(Sean Connery) - The Hunt for Red October at the end when they are towing the ship up that river and he's talking to Jack Ryan(Alex Baldwin)
Suburbia:Where they tear out the trees & then name streets after them.

CWSooner

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Re: Weather, Climate, and Environment
« Reply #2356 on: May 09, 2020, 03:43:06 PM »
Never saw the movie.  Read the book and liked it.
A revolution may be necessary now and then, but "a good thing"?
More often than not, things are worse afterward than before.  The American Revolution is one of the few that didn't end either in bloody failure or with the victorious leader installing himself as a tyrant.
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Big Beef Tacosupreme

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Re: Weather, Climate, and Environment
« Reply #2357 on: May 09, 2020, 04:17:45 PM »
How much warmer are we than "pre-industrial levels" right now?  If we use the Little Ice Age as the pre-industrial baseline, we've already reached 1.5 degrees, haven't we?
Which reminds me, somewhere I have read that industrialization bears some responsibility for the end of the Little Ice Age.  I wonder if that's true, and if so, what to make of it.
The Little Ice age only happened in the Northern Hemisphere (at most) and is way overblown.  It was not a global event of any real significance.

Cincydawg

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Re: Weather, Climate, and Environment
« Reply #2358 on: May 09, 2020, 04:21:16 PM »
There is still debate about the Little Ice age, circa 1550-1850.  It coincided with an unusual lack of subspots (Maunder minimum).  They two things may or may not be related.  Coincidentally, we have a sunspot lessening now, which might suggest we could be going into a period of cooling, perhaps offset by CO2 induced warming.  I know the measurements of solar flux are not showing much if any change, so this notion is "notional".

It would be ironic.

Big Beef Tacosupreme

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Re: Weather, Climate, and Environment
« Reply #2359 on: May 09, 2020, 04:39:33 PM »
Warmer ocean temperatures should generate more and stronger hurricanes, but we don't know how many more and how much stronger, obviously.  It could be the impact is say a tenth of a hurricane a year, which would not be noticeable.  Slower moving hurricanes will drop more rain over a set area and cause problems of that ilk.

Global climate is enormously complex and my "basic take" is that it is far too complex to model with much certainty.  And I think there is some chance that climate change turns out to be worse than the models project, as well as better.  I also think we're going to run the experiment and find out.  Thus far, the hard evidence for a warming climate is perhaps not as strong as one might think and could be viewed as natural variability.  I don't think that is the case.

But, it is difficult to have much confidence in the models.  And I hope they are wrong.

In bold:  That's bulljive.  We have been incredibly accurate modeling global warming. Remember, we aren't looking for perfection.  There are always tweaks and new things to add/change, but at this point they are minute adjustments to very accurate and well defined models.

In Italics:  It absolutely is, and we know it.  Natural variability has been ruled out.

1.  We know CO2 is a greenhouse gas.  We know it retains heat, and we know about how much it retains.  It's physics, and can be duplicated in a lab in closed environment.
2.  We know that CO2 levels have risen dramatically since the industrial age, and we can use physics to determine how much more energy will be absorbed by the sun as a result. 
3.  We know this CO2 is from the burning of fossil fuels due to the unique carbon isotope found in fossil fuels.
4.  We know that warmer air holds more water vapor, which itself is a greenhouse gas.  We know that ice reflects the sun's energy, and as ice recedes the earth will absorb more heat.  We know that as the tundra melts it releases methane, another greenhouse gas.  We know that the rain forest is shrinking every year, and that is additional carbon released into the atmosphere.   All of this is factored into our climate models, along with other factors.  This means that all models will show some variability, but that isn't the point.  The point is that ALL of them show continued significant warming due to the burning of fossil fuels.
5.  You should absolutely have confidence in the models, since they all say the same thing, have been very accurate, and have actually slightly underestimated global warming.

The "natural variability" thing is absolutely ridiculous at this point, because science has been searching for this for years.

1.  We are actually slowly heading into an ice age based upon our stage in the Milankovitch cycle.  So global warming wouldn't fit with the typical causes of previous periods of warming and cooling.  I can describe Milankovitch cycles in more detail if you'd like. 
2.  The sun's output has been at unusually low levels, and yet we still continue to warm.

Just like this 2 options above, every other theory for a "natural" global warming cycle has been systematically ruled out.

Man made climate change is real, it is predictable, and it is measurable.

Big Beef Tacosupreme

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Re: Weather, Climate, and Environment
« Reply #2360 on: May 09, 2020, 04:41:25 PM »
There is still debate about the Little Ice age, circa 1550-1850.  It coincided with an unusual lack of subspots (Maunder minimum).  They two things may or may not be related.  Coincidentally, we have a sunspot lessening now, which might suggest we could be going into a period of cooling, perhaps offset by CO2 induced warming.  I know the measurements of solar flux are not showing much if any change, so this notion is "notional".

It would be ironic.
That's correct, we are in a period of reduced solar activity, and have been for about 20 years or so.  And yet, global temperatures continue to rise.

Cincydawg

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Re: Weather, Climate, and Environment
« Reply #2361 on: May 09, 2020, 04:55:28 PM »
I used to have these discussions with a fellow at work.  I had Science and Nature come across my desk and I'd try and read the articles about climate change, they were pretty involved, a lot of lingo and acronyms.  For me to opine that the Earth's climate is unbelievably complex is hardly something extraordinary to say, and to opine these models - there are at least seven major ones - are comparatively simple, is hardly a unique outrageous position.

It's not even agreed upon that the global temperature can be accurately measured.  Why do we have competing models?  Because they use different assumptions and different coefficients about thinks like the impact of cloud cover, methane release, aerosols, impact of humidity, changes in wind and ocean currents, changes in albedo, changes in tree cover,  change in the jet stream, you name it, most of these papers were efforts to refine ONE coefficient or term in ONE model.  If a good model existed, we have that, not seven.  And we wouldn't be spending considerable effort trying to tweak them so as to back fit them against the data we have from the past.

The ONLY way to try and develop a model is to have GOOD DATA from the past against which the model is adjusted to get a fit.  And that is exactly what the modelers do, the continually adjust the fit against past data.

As I said, it well could be that climate change is going to be WORSE than the models forecast.  There are several metrics that could spiral out of control in nonlinear fashion, permafriost melting being one.

If the models actually work - and we won't know that for some time - it will be by chance.  All models are wrong, some are useful.

At any rate, I realized after a while that it doesn't matter in the real world because we, humanity, are going to run the experiment and find out.  All this Happy Talk about how this minor country or that minor city is going renewable is just that, happy talk and spin.  This train has done run.


Big Beef Tacosupreme

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Re: Weather, Climate, and Environment
« Reply #2362 on: May 09, 2020, 04:58:12 PM »


There is no evidence hurricanes net are becoming stronger, as yet.  There is some periodicity in that chart, not no upward trends.  That is the ACE measurement.  There is some indication they may be moving slower, that is rather preliminary.

This is for the North Atlantic only:




both of these actually somewhat refer to the total number of hurricanes.  What you are actually looking for is the Power Dissipation Index, which measures the duration and intensity (wind speed) of storms, and research has found that since the mid-1970s, there has been an increase in the energy of storms.

For instance, maybe you have 3 less hurricanes than normal, but you have a bunch of category 4s and 5s...


Here ya go -- but note that 2018 and 2019


Keep in mind that the last two years (not pictured) move back towards the blue dotted line.

Here's more information if you want to read more:

https://www.gfdl.noaa.gov/global-warming-and-hurricanes/

Cincydawg

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Re: Weather, Climate, and Environment
« Reply #2363 on: May 09, 2020, 05:01:29 PM »
So, what you need to show is whatever metric shows what you want it to show, while disregarding anything else, like ACE.

I get the impression you aren't understanding the point of my posts.

Big Beef Tacosupreme

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Re: Weather, Climate, and Environment
« Reply #2364 on: May 09, 2020, 05:06:39 PM »
I used to have these discussions with a fellow at work.  I had Science and Nature come across my desk and I'd try and read the articles about climate change, they were pretty involved, a lot of lingo and acronyms.  For me to opine that the Earth's climate is unbelievably complex is hardly something extraordinary to say, and to opine these models - there are at least seven major ones - are comparatively simple, is hardly a unique outrageous position.

It's not even agreed upon that the global temperature can be accurately measured.  Why do we have competing models?  Because they use different assumptions and different coefficients about thinks like the impact of cloud cover, methane release, aerosols, impact of humidity, changes in wind and ocean currents, changes in albedo, changes in tree cover,  change in the jet stream, you name it, most of these papers were efforts to refine ONE coefficient or term in ONE model.  If a good model existed, we have that, not seven.  And we wouldn't be spending considerable effort trying to tweak them so as to back fit them against the data we have from the past.

The ONLY way to try and develop a model is to have GOOD DATA from the past against which the model is adjusted to get a fit.  And that is exactly what the modelers do, the continually adjust the fit against past data.

As I said, it well could be that climate change is going to be WORSE than the models forecast.  There are several metrics that could spiral out of control in nonlinear fashion, permafriost melting being one.

If the models actually work - and we won't know that for some time - it will be by chance.  All models are wrong, some are useful.

At any rate, I realized after a while that it doesn't matter in the real world because we, humanity, are going to run the experiment and find out.  All this Happy Talk about how this minor country or that minor city is going renewable is just that, happy talk and spin.  This train has done run.


In bold:  Complex does not mean impossible to model.  And frankly, it ain't all that complex.  It's the 80/20 rule.  We can get 80% of the way there pretty easily.  The last 20% is much tougher.  We have models dating from as far back as the 1960s...and they are pretty darn accurate.

In Italics:  We can absolutely accurately measure global temperatures.  And we are getting more accurate every day.  Note that all temperature measurements come with a degree of confidence.  They aren't perfect, but they are amazingly accurate, as multiple methods and multiple different studies AGREE with each other.

You are making the same flaw over and over.  Perfection is impossible to reach, and IS NOT THE GOAL.

Cincydawg

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Re: Weather, Climate, and Environment
« Reply #2365 on: May 09, 2020, 05:08:11 PM »
I completely disagree.  

 

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