Author
Topic: Weather, Climate, Environment, and Energy
(Read 523257 times)

Mdot21 · « **Reply #1862 on:** December 11, 2019, 10:26:20 PM »

Quote

I think the Florida train should be called "semi-high speed" if you view HSR as something running 200 mph or more.

It might be the optimum between cost and performance relative to the California effort. If cities are within say 200 miles, 125 mph should be adequate if there is sufficient intracity transport at both ends. Uber/Lyft might be the solution to the intracity issue.

https://www.railwayage.com/passenger/high-performance/california-hsr-seven-deadly-mistakes/

I've read about some very tentative plans for "MSR" (M- medium) between Atlanta and Charlotte. One issue is that flying here is so cheap, relatively, it's tough to compete. I read that France may shut down flight between French cities like Marseilles and Paris and only have the TGV, in part because the TGV loses so much money each year. The government put in the capital obviously and still can't operate it at break even without even trying to pay it all back.

The HSR's in Europe don't run at 200 mph or more. Max they hit is usually 180ish and that's only in rural areas. I think that 200+ mph number is China/Japan.

Virgina Trains USA in South Florida average around 80 mph but that's largely because that area is just way too densely populated. Between permanent residents, the roughly 1 million rich fks from all over the world that live here during the season, and all the damn tourists you've got to be talking about close to 10 million people packed in a small corridor mainly on the coast from Palm Beach down to Miami. Very little empty spaces to pick up steam.

When the track is extended from WPB to Orlando- that's butt fk egypt- ain't nothing but farmland, swamps, and crackers that entire stretch- that train should hit speeds of 140 mph I think. Still not quite Europe speeds but trust me- it beats the hell out of driving.

The rail system they are building in South Florida is amazing. I'll be taking it all the time from Boca to Miami when it's open. Absolutely beats the living shit out of driving. South Florida traffic is some of the worst in the country. Should only take 40 minutes to drive to Miami from Boca. Sometimes it can take hours because of traffic and horrific accidents.

utee94 · « **Reply #1863 on:** December 11, 2019, 10:44:03 PM »

I love riding the TGV in France. I believe on a couple of the lines, they get up to 200mph max speed, but that's not ubiquitous on all routes and it's certainly a max speed and not an average for any significant stretch.

betarhoalphadelta · « **Reply #1864 on:** December 11, 2019, 11:05:58 PM »

I still think HSR is a boondoggle of massive proportions.

They can't charge enough to make money. Outside of very few routes, there's no way to get the ridership high enough to make a profit at reasonable ticket prices, so it becomes a plaything of the well-to-do*.

Beyond that, as soon as you get beyond ~200 miles, flying is better than HSR. Flying is point-to-point at that distance [i.e. there are rarely layovers or indirect flights], whereas HSR to justify its existence must stop at many stations along the route, slowing it down. And in that distance range, driving may be less pleasant than HSR but it's a damn sight cheaper, particularly if you're not traveling alone.

Rail can make sense in certain places, but I think people have such an infatuation with it that it causes them to support rail projects well above and beyond the places where it makes economic sense.

-* Well I suggest "plaything of the well-to-do" is a bad thing, for the well-to-do that's a feature rather than a bug. Urban light rail systems have a tendency to take enormous amounts of money away from urban bus systems, causing bus routes to be cancelled so rich suburbanites can commute in to work via heavily-subsidized fares. The well-to-do wouldn't be caught dead on a bus. So urban light rail basically caters to the well-to-do while royally screwing the poor who can't afford to commute by car, as bus routes are cancelled.

utee94 · « **Reply #1865 on:** December 11, 2019, 11:21:24 PM »

For these reasons and others, I vote down every light rail project that comes to the polls.

Because if we're going to do rail, it better be heavy rail.

And if we're going to do heavy rail, it better be:

CWSooner · « **Reply #1866 on:** December 11, 2019, 11:30:54 PM »

Quote from: bwarbiany on December 11, 2019, 11:05:58 PM

I still think HSR is a boondoggle of massive proportions.

They can't charge enough to make money. Outside of very few routes, there's no way to get the ridership high enough to make a profit at reasonable ticket prices, so it becomes a plaything of the well-to-do*.

Beyond that, as soon as you get beyond ~200 miles, flying is better than HSR. Flying is point-to-point at that distance [i.e. there are rarely layovers or indirect flights], whereas HSR to justify its existence must stop at many stations along the route, slowing it down. And in that distance range, driving may be less pleasant than HSR but it's a damn sight cheaper, particularly if you're not traveling alone.

Rail can make sense in certain places, but I think people have such an infatuation with it that it causes them to support rail projects well above and beyond the places where it makes economic sense.

-* Well I suggest "plaything of the well-to-do" is a bad thing, for the well-to-do that's a feature rather than a bug. Urban light rail systems have a tendency to take enormous amounts of money away from urban bus systems, causing bus routes to be cancelled so rich suburbanites can commute in to work via heavily-subsidized fares. The well-to-do wouldn't be caught dead on a bus. So urban light rail basically caters to the well-to-do while royally screwing the poor who can't afford to commute by car, as bus routes are cancelled.

To update what used to be said about electric cars, passenger rail service is the next great thing in efficient travel, and it always will be. Most of us have ridden on a some sort of great passenger rail service somewhere, and we imagine how great it would be for our state or region to have such service. What we seldom consider is opportunity cost. For the most part, passenger rail service can come nowhere near paying for itself, so there's always the issue of what public services we are giving up in order to subsidize passenger rail service.

AMTRAK is the great example. It provides mediocre, only semi-reliable, service for high fares and still requires massive subsidies.

I say this as a railfan. I would love for great long-distance passenger trains to be available all over the country, as they were during the 15-or-so years after World War II. I would love it if subways and/or elevated trains were feasible for every major urban area in America. But once the federal government stopped using railroads to carry the mail, passenger trains became money-losers, and they're still that way today. And the urban light rail services . . . well, that's already been covered.

MarqHusker · « **Reply #1867 on:** December 11, 2019, 11:32:18 PM »

Fare revenue (depending on the market) covers between 15% on the low side in some markets to as high as about 45% of the rail's operating costs. It isn't a panacea in that many markets IMO, particularly less dense metropolitan areas. There is a vanity angle to Light Rail (vs a bus) as you note which people would really not like to be confronted about as it makes proponents quite uncomfortable. As a teen/young adult I used to be a regular user of 'Freeway Flyers' they were optimal for suburban commuters and folks outside the immediate urban areas, in many ways, they were a pliable service. Dozens of park and ride lots around the market, regular dedicated schedules, and over the years, the market could adjust to where people were moving, choosing to live, and where the needs could be met. Run a fixed light trail and you're betting on a lot of permanence as far as where you think people want to go today, tomorrow and in the future.

I know they are running alt fuel/e buses at this stage. Bus service suffers with the intro of Light Rail, and in most markets bus service use dwarfs the ridership rates of rail, not even close. All for the installation of technology that isn't all that different from 1890s street cars.

I realize I'm only commenting on LR not HSR.

MarqHusker · « **Reply #1868 on:** December 11, 2019, 11:41:08 PM »

My last hard rail train experience was a Amtrak ride a few years ago with my family from Seattle to Portland. I think it was between 90-120 minutes behind schedule. So many right of way stops. Had I been solo, I would've flown, or rented a car, it was one of those fun family experiences, we went without a car the bulk of the trip, but not at all reliable. I remember looking at taking Amtrak between Indy and Milwaukee, after we lost NS flight service, why freaking bother? 1/2 the available schedule they assign you to a bus, and all told the 270 mile distance takes about 7 hours. I can get as far as Eau Claire in my car in that time. Hiawatha Line between MKE/Chicago is still a good/worthy train route.

Cincydawg · « **Reply #1869 on:** December 12, 2019, 07:09:01 AM »

MARTA is supposed to build a fair bit of Light Rail here, someday, to connect with the "heavy rail" that exists. The cost of HR apparently is prohibitive, though they may build a few more miles if Gwinnett county ever joins. The baseball park moved to Cobb county which has no MARTA, there is an express bus from near us out to the park (which is one of the worst traffic areas in town). Light rail of course is slower and takes it's power from overhead, while heavy rail takes power from a line near the tracks. Those cars can go 70 mph I'm told, but I've been parallel to one while driving and the go more like 45-50.

I like the concept of express buses that move on grade separated bridges out of urban areas but still can travel on regular streets. The buses here all use NG so they are relatively clean, but I see a lot of them go by empty, or with one person riding midday.

One problem we have is that GA has small counties, 159 of them, and they are relatively independent. So, the Atlanta metro area encompasses 15-20 counties depending on who is counting, each with its own county government and operations, it's very inefficient. MARTA someday is supposed to morph into the ATL which at least will cover all the counties, but not with rail, just buses mostly. Americans don't much like buses it seems, though the hypercheap intercity buses are fairly popular, because they are cheap.

I'm seeing a lot of development, finally, around MARTA stations in town, residential and office, simply because of proximity to the stations. I live in a part of town with cranes everywhere. It seems to me these things "pay off" eventually as a spur to construction and more taxes. The same is true with the Beltline, which is just walking/biking trails today, though SOMEDAY it is supposed to be light rail also, at least in part.

Cincydawg · « **Reply #1870 on:** December 12, 2019, 08:48:47 AM »

https://www.esrl.noaa.gov/gmd/ccgg/trends/

Does anyone here think these trends are going to attenuate, or lessen, any time soon? I don't mean wishful thinking, or hopes and dreams, but in the real world.

utee94 · « **Reply #1871 on:** December 12, 2019, 10:49:08 AM »

Quote from: Cincydawg on December 12, 2019, 08:48:47 AM

https://www.esrl.noaa.gov/gmd/ccgg/trends/

Does anyone here think these trends are going to attenuate, or lessen, any time soon? I don't mean wishful thinking, or hopes and dreams, but in the real world.

Well, is anything being done to reduce or eliminate the production/drivers of atmospheric CO2? If not, then the trend will continue in that direction...

Cincydawg · « **Reply #1872 on:** December 12, 2019, 12:13:55 PM »

https://www.epa.gov/ghgemissions/global-greenhouse-gas-emissions-data

Cincydawg · « **Reply #1873 on:** December 12, 2019, 12:14:19 PM »

FearlessF · « **Reply #1874 on:** December 12, 2019, 01:46:44 PM »

so, we can stop beating up on India

concentrate on China and the USA and the other 30%

MichiFan87 · « **Reply #1875 on:** December 12, 2019, 02:02:05 PM »

That was from 2014, and India's share has definitely increased since then (they have the most polluted cities in the world for a reason).

Even if you have a fatalist mindset about this, the solutions are still good for society for other reasons. I've probably written this all before, but I'll do it again. Wind and solar are cheap now and consequently electrifying transportation and other sectors that currently use fossil fuels is becoming cost-effective, not to mention that it would reduce air pollution. Wind, solar, and energy efficiency also have many more jobs than the rest of the energy sector, from blue-collar ones to office jobs.

The most effective solutions are listed in Carbon Drawdown (https://www.drawdown.org/solutions-summary-by-rank). Most of them are fairly straightforward (though not necessarily easy). As you can see, some of the biggest ones don't directly involve the energy sector but social issues and food production / consumption.

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Topic: Weather, Climate, Environment, and Energy

Mdot21

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utee94

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betarhoalphadelta

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utee94

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CWSooner

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MarqHusker

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MarqHusker

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Cincydawg

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Cincydawg

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utee94

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Cincydawg

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Cincydawg

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FearlessF

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MichiFan87

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