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Topic: Weather, Climate, Environment, and Energy

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Anonymous Coward

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Re: Weather, Climate, and Environment
« Reply #1526 on: July 07, 2019, 02:00:07 PM »
Yeah, H2 is beholden to fossil fuels. It's the main reason electric vehicles are winning the logic wars versus hydrogen vehicles.
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Cincydawg

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Re: Weather, Climate, and Environment
« Reply #1527 on: July 07, 2019, 02:10:44 PM »
I'm looking for a energy output per unit weight from a fuel cell versus a modern battery.  I presume a fuel cell has a marked advantage, but don't know that.
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MichiFan87

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Re: Weather, Climate, and Environment
« Reply #1528 on: July 07, 2019, 02:55:49 PM »
Coincidentally I just found this recently released report about the future of hydrogen. The summary reinforces what I've stated above:

https://www.iea.org/newsroom/news/2019/june/three-reasons-why-the-iea-report-on-hydrogen-is-a-game-changer.html?utm_content=buffer2c1f1&utm_medium=social&utm_source=linkedin.com&utm_campaign=buffer
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Cincydawg

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Re: Weather, Climate, and Environment
« Reply #1529 on: July 07, 2019, 03:26:38 PM »
Those three reasons cited strike me as the same three reasons presented for hydrogen all along.  Is there something new in that that I missed?
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FearlessF

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Re: Weather, Climate, and Environment
« Reply #1530 on: July 08, 2019, 12:56:04 PM »
What do you take from the 60 Minutes episode on thawing permafrost being a major contributor of  carbon dioxide and methane, greenhouse gases???

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/siberia-pleistocene-park-bringing-back-pieces-of-the-ice-age-to-combat-climate-change-60-minutes-2019-07-07/
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"Courage; Generosity; Fairness; Honor; In these are the true awards of manly sport."

Cincydawg

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Re: Weather, Climate, and Environment
« Reply #1531 on: July 08, 2019, 01:02:59 PM »
A.  I don't trust 60 Minutes on any topic.

B.  The permafrost thing could be very very bad.  It's another thing I don't think we can model reliably.
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FearlessF

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Re: Weather, Climate, and Environment
« Reply #1532 on: July 08, 2019, 01:05:54 PM »
Quote from: Temp430 on July 03, 2019, 07:26:02 AM
The carbon dioxide concentration in the atmosphere is rising at a steady rate.  What I don't buy is that humanity is the primary cause of that.
Temp430 caused me to think about the thawing permafrost

yup, 60 Minutes may have agendas and be biased, that's why I ask the question here
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Cincydawg

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Re: Weather, Climate, and Environment
« Reply #1533 on: July 08, 2019, 01:15:39 PM »
The data showing the increase in CO2 is from human activities is about as rock solid as anything can be.  I take it as a fact.  I can imagine an alternative explanation for the data, meaning the isotope ratios.
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MrNubbz

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Re: Weather, Climate, and Environment
« Reply #1534 on: July 08, 2019, 03:42:48 PM »
Since we're in this thread that is in a CFB website - what are Universities doing recycling wise on game days? A lot of plastic getting tossed in the trash coast to coast in a lot of Stadiums.The NFL should get in on the act also
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Anonymous Coward

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Re: Weather, Climate, and Environment
« Reply #1535 on: July 08, 2019, 05:12:28 PM »
I think Big Ten universities are pushing hard to go full compostable (plates, cups, utensils, and of course the food). 
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Cincydawg

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Re: Weather, Climate, and Environment
« Reply #1536 on: July 08, 2019, 05:42:36 PM »
Compostable stuff does not good at all if it goes to landfill.

I used to work on compostable polymers back in the day.  That caused me some career trouble for telling truth to power.

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CWSooner

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Re: Weather, Climate, and Environment
« Reply #1537 on: July 08, 2019, 06:28:21 PM »
I don't know about compostables, but it seems that a good deal of what is being publicly done is being publicly done to send signals rather than to improve the situation.  The unintended consequences turn out to be overcome the predicted direct improvements.  Replacing plastic straws with paper ones, and replacing plastic grocery bags with paper ones come right to mind.
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betarhoalphadelta

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Re: Weather, Climate, and Environment
« Reply #1538 on: July 08, 2019, 07:18:50 PM »
Quote from: FearlessF on July 08, 2019, 12:56:04 PM
What do you take from the 60 Minutes episode on thawing permafrost being a major contributor of  carbon dioxide and methane, greenhouse gases???

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/siberia-pleistocene-park-bringing-back-pieces-of-the-ice-age-to-combat-climate-change-60-minutes-2019-07-07/
So, this is the problem with most of climate science, and why it's so flippin' hard to determine how much warming will happen.

Everything depends on models, and each of those models have various things that will be positive feedback loops (warming begets warming) or negative feedback loops (warming begets cooling). 

I.e. if warming causes the permafrost to melt, releasing more greenhouse gases, it is a positive feedback loop. If the poles melt, which currently reflect sunlight away from the earth, it is a positive feedback loop as more of that solar energy is retained in the earth. 

But if warming causes more cloud coverage, clouds also reflect sunlight back into space, and that will mitigate the warming, i.e. a negative feedback loop. Although if I read Wikipedia*, clouds can serve both purposes. High clouds reflect the earth's heat downwards, a net positive feedback, while lower clouds reflect the sun's heat upwards, a net negative feedback. 

Generally if there is no net feedback to CO2, the warming will be relatively restrained. Most models assume a positive "climate sensitivity" number, which is effectively the degree of feedback inherent in the climate system. 

The issue with climate change is that nobody really knows the exact effects of these feedback loops, and whether there are enough negative feedback loops in climate to mitigate the worst positive feedback loops. I've heard people argue that the earth tends towards negative feedback [remaining in stasis], but given the various extinctions the earth has gone through in its history, I'm not sure I agree that we can't tip the balance. I'm just not sure if CO2 will do so. 

That said, I agree with @CincyDawg that I'm a bit worried about the potential positive feedback from permafrost melt. Also that 60 Minutes can't be trusted. 

* BTW I don't ever trust Wikipedia for politically-charged topics like this. I always figure they'll be captured by one side ideologically or the other, who will fight tooth and nail to skew the bias of the entry. However I highlight it here to explain the basics of positive and negative feedback loops and that both exist in climate.
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betarhoalphadelta

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Re: Weather, Climate, and Environment
« Reply #1539 on: July 08, 2019, 07:36:34 PM »
Quote from: Cincydawg on July 08, 2019, 01:15:39 PM
The data showing the increase in CO2 is from human activities is about as rock solid as anything can be.  I take it as a fact.  I can imagine an alternative explanation for the data, meaning the isotope ratios.
Yeah, I've said it before, but the argument for mitigating climate change relies on a complex chain of linked statements:

  • CO2 is a greenhouse gas and will warm the planet.
  • Human production of CO2 is sizable relative to all natural sources and IS warming the planet. 
  • Warming is a net negative effect on the planet. 
  • The warming that will happen due to CO2 is sizeable and if unchecked will cause serious harm to human civilization.
  • The harm to human civilization that is caused is larger than the cost to civilization of attempting to check the warming. 

Anyone who argues against #1 or #2 is IMHO what you would call a "denier". I don't think there are credible arguments against these statements: The climate is warming. CO2 is one of the principal causes of warming and is increasing. Humans are the largest driver of the CO2 increase. Therefore, humans are driving the warming of the climate.

The argument is really fought from #3 to #5, particularly #4 and #5. 

Climate sensitivity is the way to try to figure out HOW much warmer we'll get form a certain amount of CO2 (i.e. direction and magnitude of feedback loops), so #4 is the central battleground of a huge fight between the climate change alarmists and the climate change skeptics. 

#5 is harder... If you think climate modeling is hard, try modeling economic growth out 100 years based upon a high-carbon or low-carbon economy... Can we develop technology fast enough to let the earth warm but still mitigate that warmth through economic growth and technology? Maybe. Or will the negative effects of climate change occur so quickly that they can't be mitigated and push humanity into drought, famine, resource struggles, and likely international conflicts over food/water/natural resources? Maybe.

So yeah, CO2 is increasing and it's our fault. And that's warming the planet. But it remains to be seen whether that's meaningful, negative, and more impactful than trying to push through technology to stay ahead of the curve to mitigate warming down the road.

(And the cynical answer is that China and India sure as hell aren't going to give up carbon if carbon is the way to get their economies up to first world standards, so we're probably f&#*$d anyway, and we'd better hope that we can find a technological solution down the road.)
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