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Topic: Weather, Climate, Environment, and Energy

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Anonymous Coward

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Re: Weather, Climate, and Environment
« Reply #1498 on: July 03, 2019, 03:12:20 PM »
Photosynthesizers (plants, algae, etc.) have chloroplasts that selectively fix lighter isotopes of carbon. Therefore, the act of burning their remnants (logs or in this case fossil fuels) releases CO2 with a mass that is a neutron or two lighter than the CO2 coming from other sources, including volcanoes.

The industrial revolution really got going around 1850. This correlates both with the beginning of our CO2 climb and with the dilution of our Carbon-13 percentage in the atmosphere as Carbon-12 percentage has risen.

So we have a so-called diminishing "C13/C12 ratio" for atmospheric CO2. That's new to this period. How can we know that? Because even though we never bothered to detect atmospheric CO2 masses before the last few decades, nature had all the while been producing fixed and dated records, waiting for us to become keen to notice.

Specifically, this can be well dated by the carbon make-up of tree rings and corals. These are organisms that build durable structures which can be read, almost like consecutive pages of a historical record, where instead of alphabets and syntax we see the chemical make-up of the environment as it existed when those structures/layers were built.

The record for trees that are aged to hundreds of years or older show a very stable C13/C12 ratio prior to ~1850. And then a sudden, consistent shift with C13/C12 lowering ever since. Perhaps there are other explanations than mankind, but volcanoes at least don't fit the isotopic facts.

Meeeeeeeanwhile: even if a person rigidly denounces anthropogenic climate change despite the evidence, being good to the planet "just because" also happens to be responsible. It also fits all kinds of identities, whether you're a left-leaning übercrunchy hippie believing it because your healing crystals said so or a right-leaning evangelical aiming to be a good steward of god's creation. It's also a philosophy that keeps our oceans low in plastic, our cities low in smog, and our drinking water low in toxins. Even if you disagree on the cause, caring (even caring A LOT) isn't that controversial.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2019, 03:39:08 PM by Anonymous Coward »

MrNubbz

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Re: Weather, Climate, and Environment
« Reply #1499 on: July 03, 2019, 03:15:51 PM »
I don't mind going Amish all this gadgetry and it's vast over pricing can hit the BLVD
Suburbia:Where they tear out the trees & then name streets after them.

Cincydawg

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Re: Weather, Climate, and Environment
« Reply #1500 on: July 03, 2019, 03:25:42 PM »
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/earthtalks-volcanoes-or-humans/

This argument that human-caused carbon emissions are merely a drop in the bucket compared to greenhouse gases generated by volcanoes has been making its way around the rumor mill for years. And while it may sound plausible, the science just doesn’t back it up.

According to the U.S. Geological Survey (USGS), the world’s volcanoes, both on land and undersea, generate about 200 million tons of carbon dioxide (CO2) annually, while our automotive and industrial activities cause some 24 billion tons of CO2 emissions every year worldwide. Despite the arguments to the contrary, the facts speak for themselves: Greenhouse gas emissions from volcanoes comprise less than one percent of those generated by today’s human endeavors.



I've seen this multiple sites.

CWSooner

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Re: Weather, Climate, and Environment
« Reply #1501 on: July 03, 2019, 08:02:06 PM »
I don't mind going Amish all this gadgetry and it's vast over pricing can hit the BLVD
The area of the United States will not support 300 million people living like the Amish.
Play Like a Champion Today

FearlessF

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Re: Weather, Climate, and Environment
« Reply #1502 on: July 04, 2019, 09:28:10 AM »
I used to think that but I'm convinced it all the fookin' trees getting cut along with industrial build up.Farms & forrests have practically disappeared in N.E.Ohio replaced by commercial/residential "Progress"
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"Courage; Generosity; Fairness; Honor; In these are the true awards of manly sport."

Cincydawg

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Re: Weather, Climate, and Environment
« Reply #1503 on: July 04, 2019, 09:40:00 AM »
The US lower 48 was almost cut bare circa 1920.  The regrowth of forests in the US is rather amazing since then.

You have to look hard to find virgin forest in the lower 48, nearly all of it has grown back since 1930 or so.  Atlanta from the air looks like a forest with some spots of commercial development.



I live right about in the middle on the horizon.

Cincydawg

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Re: Weather, Climate, and Environment
« Reply #1504 on: July 04, 2019, 09:52:56 AM »
https://psmag.com/environment/the-planet-now-has-more-trees-than-it-did-35-years-ago

The key thing about trees and CO2 is that trees are close to net neutral.  When they grow they soak up CO2 obviously, the stuff we see in a tree is nearly all a combination of CO2 and water.  But when they die, the lie on the ground and rot and all that CO2 is returned to the air.

If they get buried, this changes the equation of course.  I have not done the calculations, but rather than try to remove CO2 from the air artificially (CO2 scrubbing), it could make more sense to grow them and then bury them where they won't rot.

Or make paper out of them and put than in sanitary landfills.

Anonymous Coward

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Re: Weather, Climate, and Environment
« Reply #1505 on: July 04, 2019, 10:40:01 AM »
That's right. Trees are part of the carbon cycle. Our problem is that we are introducing CO2 to the atmosphere that had spent many millions of years deep within the Earth's crust -- therefore removed from the carbon cycle. So we are increasing the carrying capacity of the entire cycle.

The best ways to correct that are by stopping to dope the carbon cycle with more exogenous stuff (relatively straightforward but a real struggle politically) and to remove carbon from the cycle (so far impractical, a great engineering challenge).

If you wanted forests to help the problem, though the plan is not technically impossible it is impossible realistically and would eventually reveal itself as a ticking bomb. You'd start by growing our forests much faster in photosynthetic biomass than they are now. And then you'd need that growth to further increase every year into perpetuity. Those trees would still be part of the carbon cycle, but they'd be out of equilibrium with the carbon cycle. Growing nearly exponentially. Siphoning the cycle in their direction, like a global showing of Le Chatelier's principle.

But - obviously - having the world's forests become exponentially bigger starting today and continuing forever is not a real thing. Eventually anything's growth must slow relative to decay. At that point, forests would either reach equilibrium with the cycle (a net neutral carbon scenario) or would overgrow their resources and net decay (and therefore contribute to more atmospheric carbon, not less).

Cincydawg

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Re: Weather, Climate, and Environment
« Reply #1506 on: July 04, 2019, 10:49:25 AM »
The idea of adding iron to portions of the ocean is interesting to me.

Anonymous Coward

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Re: Weather, Climate, and Environment
« Reply #1507 on: July 04, 2019, 10:50:50 AM »
If they get buried, this changes the equation of course.  I have not done the calculations, but rather than try to remove CO2 from the air artificially (CO2 scrubbing), it could make more sense to grow them and then bury them where they won't rot.

Or make paper out of them and put than in sanitary landfills.
I feel like that engineering challenge could be made easier by turning to Cyanobacteria, instead of trees. Anything that expresses an efficient RuBisCO would work. And algal blooms - whether managed in nature or industrial laboratories - *may* be simpler to work with, transport and funnel into chambers locked away from the carbon cycle. I also imagine they'd be an easier biomass to scale.

Cincydawg

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Re: Weather, Climate, and Environment
« Reply #1508 on: July 04, 2019, 10:58:26 AM »
Algae require some effort to grow well, oddly enough.  Otherwise it tends to mat and suffocate itself.

Ocean currents and waves take care of this issue and the phyoplanta that die fall to the bottom of the pond and turn into limestone, which is a pretty good sink for carbon.

Anonymous Coward

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Re: Weather, Climate, and Environment
« Reply #1509 on: July 04, 2019, 10:59:01 AM »
The idea of adding iron to portions of the ocean is interesting to me.
I have my eye on it too but it feels untenable to me. I'm less so talking about the heightened risks of toxic algal blooms/deoxygenated zones (though that'd almost be certain) than I am talking about how algal corpses that sink to the bottom of the ocean may not be removed from the carbon cycle.

Anonymous Coward

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Re: Weather, Climate, and Environment
« Reply #1510 on: July 04, 2019, 11:11:16 AM »
Algae require some effort to grow well, oddly enough.  Otherwise it tends to mat and suffocate itself.

Ocean currents and waves take care of this issue and the phyoplanta that die fall to the bottom of the pond and turn into limestone, which is a pretty good sink for carbon.
I'm nodding along to most of this. But agitation of fluids is not a foreign concept to biological laboratories. Outside the oceans, scale would be more of an issue, admittedly, but at less cost to human safety (in terms of swimming/boating through maitotoxin or global crashes in fish population due to toxic blooms). 

Also, in order to proportionately increase limestone formation, you'd have to be sure that iron doping  didn't disproportionately bloom Cyanobacteria or Prochlorophytes, which do not have carbonate shells, over the eukaryotic plankton, which do.

Cincydawg

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Re: Weather, Climate, and Environment
« Reply #1511 on: July 04, 2019, 11:17:35 AM »
No doubt there are issues with the iron doping concept, including the possibility of unintended consequences.


 

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