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Topic: Weather, Climate, Environment, and Energy

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Cincydawg

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Re: Weather, Climate, and Environment
« Reply #3668 on: October 06, 2020, 10:59:17 AM »
That's my point, China is playing the Long Game for China, not for the Chinese, or vulnerable populations.  They are disposable.  I think they focus on being the dominant country in the world by 2050 or so.  If climate change and pollution happens as a result, well, so be it.  This really is a war by other means.

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betarhoalphadelta

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Re: Weather, Climate, and Environment
« Reply #3669 on: October 06, 2020, 11:10:15 AM »
Quote from: Cincydawg on October 06, 2020, 10:59:17 AM
That's my point, China is playing the Long Game for China, not for the Chinese, or vulnerable populations.  They are disposable.  I think they focus on being the dominant country in the world by 2050 or so.  If climate change and pollution happens as a result, well, so be it.  This really is a war by other means.
I do think they're going to run into a problem, though... Once you get a sizable portion of the population farther up Maslow's hierarchy of needs, and stably into a middle class, they start getting all these crazy notions about having the political right of self-determination. 

Chinese "communism" is basically managed capitalism at this point. People want civil liberties. The CCP can only keep a lid on that for so long. 
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Cincydawg

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Re: Weather, Climate, and Environment
« Reply #3670 on: October 06, 2020, 11:15:34 AM »
Maybe, the key may be whether folks feel their quality of life is improving over time.  Folks will put up with a lot of loss of freedom if their lot is getting better.

"Well, I'd like to protest, but on the other hand, I'm making more money now and we just moved to a nicer place."

It's the economy, stupid.

I don't think generally humans are nearly as motivated by "rights" as they are money.
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utee94

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Re: Weather, Climate, and Environment
« Reply #3671 on: October 06, 2020, 11:30:25 AM »
Quote from: bwarbiany on October 06, 2020, 11:10:15 AM
I do think they're going to run into a problem, though... Once you get a sizable portion of the population farther up Maslow's hierarchy of needs, and stably into a middle class, they start getting all these crazy notions about having the political right of self-determination.

Chinese "communism" is basically managed capitalism at this point. People want civil liberties. The CCP can only keep a lid on that for so long.
I'd agree if the Chinese government and Leadership cared about the civilians, but they don't.  They're disposable.  Any uprising will be quelled emphatically, with zero regard for collateral damage.  Collateral damage isn't even a concept they recognize, because they view individual human lives as completely irrelevant.

Back in 1985, Sting opined, "I hope the Russians love their children too."  And the Cold War ended a few years later, because for the most part, they do.

China does not. 
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betarhoalphadelta

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Re: Weather, Climate, and Environment
« Reply #3672 on: October 06, 2020, 12:16:01 PM »
Quote from: Cincydawg on October 06, 2020, 11:15:34 AM
Maybe, the key may be whether folks feel their quality of life is improving over time.  Folks will put up with a lot of loss of freedom if their lot is getting better.

"Well, I'd like to protest, but on the other hand, I'm making more money now and we just moved to a nicer place."

It's the economy, stupid.

I don't think generally humans are nearly as motivated by "rights" as they are money.
That is true, to an extent. Singapore is an excellent example of that. They don't necessarily have a lot of political/civil rights, but they are a rich country with a very high level of trust in their gov't to not be corrupt. 

I'm not sure China can get there. Too large, too diverse. Too big of a known issue with their government not respecting human rights. 

Quote from: utee94 on October 06, 2020, 11:30:25 AM
I'd agree if the Chinese government and Leadership cared about the civilians, but they don't.  They're disposable.  Any uprising will be quelled emphatically, with zero regard for collateral damage.  Collateral damage isn't even a concept they recognize, because they view individual human lives as completely irrelevant.

Back in 1985, Sting opined, "I hope the Russians love their children too."  And the Cold War ended a few years later, because for the most part, they do.

China does not.
1.3B people have a way of making you care, if they actually come together to demand change...  
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847badgerfan

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Re: Weather, Climate, and Environment
« Reply #3673 on: October 06, 2020, 12:19:17 PM »
The problem with that is a heavily armed and well-trained military of 2.5 Million. That would easily suppress 1.3 Billion people.
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MrNubbz

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Re: Weather, Climate, and Environment
« Reply #3674 on: October 06, 2020, 12:48:12 PM »
Quote from: 847badgerfan on October 06, 2020, 08:13:43 AM
They are very patient.
Like barricading people in their homes needing health care
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betarhoalphadelta

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Re: Weather, Climate, and Environment
« Reply #3675 on: October 06, 2020, 01:01:58 PM »
Quote from: 847badgerfan on October 06, 2020, 12:19:17 PM
The problem with that is a heavily armed and well-trained military of 2.5 Million. That would easily suppress 1.3 Billion people.
If they need widespread suppression, those 2.5M might balk at the task. 

It's one thing when they're suppressing an "other" group, like protestors in Hong Kong where they can paint them as "foreign" rather than "like us", or the Uighurs where they can rely on racism to paint them as the "other", or the Nepalese where again they're "foreign". 

It gets harder and harder when you have widespread social movements of their own relatives... Harder to paint them as the "other" and to get the soldiers to carry out the orders. 
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utee94

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Re: Weather, Climate, and Environment
« Reply #3676 on: October 06, 2020, 01:28:35 PM »
Quote from: bwarbiany on October 06, 2020, 01:01:58 PM
If they need widespread suppression, those 2.5M might balk at the task.

It's one thing when they're suppressing an "other" group, like protestors in Hong Kong where they can paint them as "foreign" rather than "like us", or the Uighurs where they can rely on racism to paint them as the "other", or the Nepalese where again they're "foreign".

It gets harder and harder when you have widespread social movements of their own relatives... Harder to paint them as the "other" and to get the soldiers to carry out the orders.
Not so sure, how'd that all work out in Tiananmen Square?
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betarhoalphadelta

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Re: Weather, Climate, and Environment
« Reply #3677 on: October 06, 2020, 01:37:48 PM »
Quote from: utee94 on October 06, 2020, 01:28:35 PM
Not so sure, how'd that all work out in Tiananmen Square?
Think it'll be that easy 30 years later, in a country where everyone carries a video camera in their pocket connected to the internet? 

I realize that their internet is tightly restricted, but the Chinese are one of the biggest worldwide users of VPNs to circumvent those controls. 


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utee94

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Re: Weather, Climate, and Environment
« Reply #3678 on: October 06, 2020, 01:43:48 PM »
Quote from: bwarbiany on October 06, 2020, 01:37:48 PM
Think it'll be that easy 30 years later, in a country where everyone carries a video camera in their pocket connected to the internet?

I realize that their internet is tightly restricted, but the Chinese are one of the biggest worldwide users of VPNs to circumvent those controls.


[img width=500 height=212.986]https://i.imgur.com/HdnSyba.png[/img]

The Chinese government completely shuts them down regularly, already, today.  Happens all the time.  And they don't even have a military reason to do so.

Give them a military reason to do so?  We'll see just how fast they can strip out those channels.  They literally control every pipe within the borders, centrally.
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847badgerfan

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Re: Weather, Climate, and Environment
« Reply #3679 on: October 06, 2020, 01:52:50 PM »
I don't trust that CCP when it comes to anything. They will pull out all the stops to suppress their people - including disappearing them. This is proven.
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MrNubbz

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Re: Weather, Climate, and Environment
« Reply #3680 on: October 07, 2020, 08:20:59 AM »
I was going to hit like,847 but who likes that unfortunately it is a sad fact
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Cincydawg

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Re: Weather, Climate, and Environment
« Reply #3681 on: October 07, 2020, 11:58:31 AM »
At a point, a government turns into an over sized Mafia operation.  The Mafia doesn't want to kill off their clientel obviously, but if a few drop by the way no skin.

It's about power and influence even more than money (because they get plenty of that).  And if you are the government, it's not like you have any worries about jail time.
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