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Topic: US News P5 Academic Rankings

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betarhoalphadelta

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Re: US News P5 Academic Rankings
« Reply #14 on: July 24, 2018, 12:23:53 PM »
https://www.usnews.com/education/best-colleges/articles/how-us-news-calculated-the-rankings

Graduation/Retention: 22.5%
Undergrad Academic Reputation: 22.5%
Faculty Resources: 20%
Student selectivity: 12.5%
Financial resources: 10%
Graduation rate performance: 7.5%
Alumni giving: 5%

So less than a quarter is based on the actual undergrad academic reputation.

Schools that are highly selective get a double boost. Highly selective schools not only take the best students available (12.5%), but those students are more likely to achieve both first-year retention and six-year graduation rate (22.5%). 

Now, if a school outperforms its selectivity and achieves a higher graduation rate than predicted by its incoming student population, it can somewhat "catch up" with graduation rate performance (7.5%), but that's a MUCH smaller weight than the combined 35% for selectivity and outright retention/graduation rates. 

https://www.thoughtco.com/comparison-of-the-big-ten-universities-786967

I've said before that Purdue--outside of engineering--is not particularly hard to get into. This bears that out, with a 56% admission rate compared to Northwestern (11%), Michigan (29%), and Minnesota (44%) and Maryland (48%). Then with 6-year graduation rates, you see Northwestern (94%), Michigan, (91%), Maryland (87%), while Purdue is down at 77%. Wisconsin, PSU, Illinois, and OSU somewhat outperform their admission rate with their graduation rates, but of those 4 schools, Illinois is the only one with a similar engineering reputation as Purdue. Those schools all have similar acceptance rates but higher graduation rates, and they're numbers 17-20 on the above list while Purdue is 22. 

So the rankings are NOT based on how good of an education you receive at each institution. Which isn't to say that any of the schools on that list will give you a bad education. But it's to say that only 22.5% of the ranking is based on the actual undergrad academic reputation of the school, and 77.5% is based upon "other". 

847badgerfan

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Re: US News P5 Academic Rankings
« Reply #15 on: July 24, 2018, 12:33:49 PM »
https://www.usnews.com/education/best-colleges/articles/how-us-news-calculated-the-rankings

Graduation/Retention: 22.5%
Undergrad Academic Reputation: 22.5%
Faculty Resources: 20%
Student selectivity: 12.5%
Financial resources: 10%
Graduation rate performance: 7.5%
Alumni giving: 5%

So less than a quarter is based on the actual undergrad academic reputation.

Schools that are highly selective get a double boost. Highly selective schools not only take the best students available (12.5%), but those students are more likely to achieve both first-year retention and six-year graduation rate (22.5%).

Now, if a school outperforms its selectivity and achieves a higher graduation rate than predicted by its incoming student population, it can somewhat "catch up" with graduation rate performance (7.5%), but that's a MUCH smaller weight than the combined 35% for selectivity and outright retention/graduation rates.

https://www.thoughtco.com/comparison-of-the-big-ten-universities-786967

I've said before that Purdue--outside of engineering--is not particularly hard to get into. This bears that out, with a 56% admission rate compared to Northwestern (11%), Michigan (29%), and Minnesota (44%) and Maryland (48%). Then with 6-year graduation rates, you see Northwestern (94%), Michigan, (91%), Maryland (87%), while Purdue is down at 77%. Wisconsin, PSU, Illinois, and OSU somewhat outperform their admission rate with their graduation rates, but of those 4 schools, Illinois is the only one with a similar engineering reputation as Purdue. Those schools all have similar acceptance rates but higher graduation rates, and they're numbers 17-20 on the above list while Purdue is 22.

So the rankings are NOT based on how good of an education you receive at each institution. Which isn't to say that any of the schools on that list will give you a bad education. But it's to say that only 22.5% of the ranking is based on the actual undergrad academic reputation of the school, and 77.5% is based upon "other".
https://www.graduateshotline.com/ranks/
https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/rankings/engineering-doctorate
https://www.timeshighereducation.com/world-university-rankings/2018/subject-ranking/engineering-and-IT#!/page/0/length/25/sort_by/rank/sort_order/asc/cols/stats
http://www.shanghairanking.com/ARWU2017.html
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betarhoalphadelta

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Re: US News P5 Academic Rankings
« Reply #16 on: July 24, 2018, 12:36:47 PM »
I was under the impression that What Purdue did well, it did better than OSU; but that it was only "half a university" with several Colleges emphasized down at IU instead, and I think that hurts Purdue's overall ranking.
Per my link above: 
OSU has a 54% admission rate and an 84% six-year graduation rate.
Purdue has a 56% admission rate and a 77% six-year graduation rate. 
So while their admission rates are similar, either OSU is overperforming their admission rate or Purdue is underperforming their admission rate. Those three numbers combined (admission / graduation-retention / over-underperformance) are a combined 42.5% of the overall US News ranking. 
Of the others, Faculty and Financial resources are a combined 30%. OSU is the state's flagship university. Purdue and Indiana are "split flagships" for the reasons you point out, where the two are deliberately not competing with each other. I'll bet that negatively affects at least the financial resources piece of the puzzle for both Purdue and IU, and wouldn't be surprised if the "faculty resources" are somewhat also impacted, although some of those resources [faculty salary, for one] may actually help Purdue in that engineering professors are typically some of the highest-paid faculty, and Purdue has a higher proportion of engineer->non-engineer than OSU. I.e. even though they have similar engineering enrollment, OSU has 150% the total undergrad enrollment of Purdue, so it's a smaller proportion. 
So even if the academic reputations of the two were perfectly equal (not sure where those numbers rank), I would bet that OSU would edge Purdue out for the other metrics. 
And based on that split, note that IU doesn't even get into the "others receiving votes" category. Why? 79% acceptance rate but only a 76% six-year graduation graduation rate means they're not selective nor have high graduation rates. That, along with the "split flagship" model that probably hampers them like it does Purdue, pushes them out. 

betarhoalphadelta

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Re: US News P5 Academic Rankings
« Reply #17 on: July 24, 2018, 12:48:29 PM »
https://www.graduateshotline.com/ranks/
https://www.usnews.com/best-colleges/rankings/engineering-doctorate
https://www.timeshighereducation.com/world-university-rankings/2018/subject-ranking/engineering-and-IT#!/page/0/length/25/sort_by/rank/sort_order/asc/cols/stats
http://www.shanghairanking.com/ARWU2017.html

I'm not knocking Wisconsin, Badge...
Your first three ranks show Purdue as ahead of Wisconsin in engineering. Not by an enormous margin, of course, but ahead. It was 11th vs 16th, 8th (tie) vs 14th (tie) for doctorate, and 25th vs 40th worldwide. 
Your last rank is overall, not limited to engineering, and Wisconsin is a ways ahead of Purdue. This suggests that Wisconsin's OVERALL ranking makes up for them being somewhat below in engineering. I'd also state that this final link, if you read methodology, has a lot more to do with graduate research than undergraduate education. Which is important, but is a completely different metric than quality of undergrad education. 
And to my point, although Wisconsin is good but several places below Illinois/Purdue on the list, the other two, PSU and OSU, are farther down. Not bad, but still below. 

Entropy

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Re: US News P5 Academic Rankings
« Reply #18 on: July 24, 2018, 01:58:09 PM »
I was under the impression that What Purdue did well, it did better than OSU; but that it was only "half a university" with several Colleges emphasized down at IU instead, and I think that hurts Purdue's overall ranking.
I also was under the impression that OSU and Texas were almost mirrors of each other for undergrad experience, but OSU had an edge for Graduate Research.
Again, US News is a weak ranking system, I'm sure there are systems out there that have both Higher than OSU, but OSU has improved leaps and bounds over the Large State school that took anyone with a check back in the 80ies.
Prepscholar has the 3 schools entry requirements listed as:
OSU requires a 3.8 GPA, and a 29 (out of 36) ACT score.
Texas is a 3.75 GPA and a 1350 on the new 1600 SAT scale.
Purdue is a 3.72 and a 1300 on the new 1600 SAT scale.
I agree about OSU improvement... especially from when I was in college.   They deserve a lot of credit.

ELA

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Re: US News P5 Academic Rankings
« Reply #19 on: July 24, 2018, 02:09:53 PM »
Yeah my uncle always jokes about how much more impressive his OSU degree gets the longer he lives.

Hell, when I was debating between OSU, Wisconsin and Pitt for law school about 12 years ago, they were a toss up in terms of rankings.  Now Wisconsin and OSU are right around 30, which is about what Wisconsin was, and a raise for OSU, while Pitt has plummeted down to like #80.  I think in the most recent rankings it's right below Kansas and Rutgers.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2018, 02:12:12 PM by ELA »

MarqHusker

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Re: US News P5 Academic Rankings
« Reply #20 on: July 24, 2018, 02:35:58 PM »
Serious question, what jobs are there/industries where employers are actually looking at where you went to undergrad, and/or your transcripts?

I don't think anybody in our division (prominent financial services firm/ large parent co.)asks for transcripts or gives a #### where you went to undergrad.  the only reason graduate/professional credentials come up, is for salary purposes (nobody cares about those grades either).  I've done my fair share of hiring.  I don't give a hoot about grades/school

In my former life as a prosecutor, there was also zero emphasis on grades/school.   References, and interview were everything.

SFBadger96

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Re: US News P5 Academic Rankings
« Reply #21 on: July 24, 2018, 02:41:50 PM »
I would say Florida and Miami are surprisingly high on the list, Texas and Washington too low. Other than that, it looks about right to me.

Top public schools by reputation with FBS football programs? Cal, Michigan, UVA, UNC, UCLA, Texas, in about that order. I would put Wisconsin in the next tier (and of course at the top of it).

USN&WR's rankings put a lot of stock into financial resources, which gives the top private schools a big boost. Nonetheless, the graduation rates and post-graduation income levels at those top private schools are nothing to sneer at. And FYI, Notre Dame is absolutely a top-tier undergrad institution. Probably not quite on the same level as a graduate university, but still very high. Absolutely belongs in the neighborhood it's in on this list.

JerseyTerrapin

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Re: US News P5 Academic Rankings
« Reply #22 on: July 24, 2018, 02:43:38 PM »
Serious question, what jobs are there/industries where employers are actually looking at where you went to undergrad, and/or your transcripts?

I don't think anybody in our division (prominent financial services firm/ large parent co.)asks for transcripts or gives a #### where you went to undergrad.  the only reason graduate/professional credentials come up, is for salary purposes (nobody cares about those grades either).  I've done my fair share of hiring.  I don't give a hoot about grades/school

In my former life as a prosecutor, there was also zero emphasis on grades/school.   References, and interview were everything.
Same experience here, although I'm sure it differs by industry.  It's a good topic for friendly banter at a job interview, basically, if your school's team just went deep in the NCAA or won a big bowl game or something.  Other than that, most people don't even know where their colleagues got their degrees.

ELA

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Re: US News P5 Academic Rankings
« Reply #23 on: July 24, 2018, 02:45:05 PM »
I think it matters for your first job, but not beyond that.

SFBadger96

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Re: US News P5 Academic Rankings
« Reply #24 on: July 24, 2018, 02:46:21 PM »
Serious question, what jobs are there/industries where employers are actually looking at where you went to undergrad, and/or your transcripts?

I don't think anybody in our division (prominent financial services firm/ large parent co.)asks for transcripts or gives a #### where you went to undergrad.  the only reason graduate/professional credentials come up, is for salary purposes (nobody cares about those grades either).  I've done my fair share of hiring.  I don't give a hoot about grades/school

In my former life as a prosecutor, there was also zero emphasis on grades/school.   References, and interview were everything.
I've worked several places where school (and honors, but not grades) mattered; more to the point, with several people involved in hiring who cared deeply about what school applicants attended. And I've worked with a lot of clients who viewed the world the same way. Yes, graduate programs mattered more, but in hiring for positions that required undergrad, but not graduate degrees, undergrad institution matters, too.

I've never liked it, but those biases definitely exist out there in the world.

847badgerfan

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Re: US News P5 Academic Rankings
« Reply #25 on: July 24, 2018, 02:54:03 PM »
I'm not knocking Wisconsin, Badge...
Your first three ranks show Purdue as ahead of Wisconsin in engineering. Not by an enormous margin, of course, but ahead. It was 11th vs 16th, 8th (tie) vs 14th (tie) for doctorate, and 25th vs 40th worldwide.
Your last rank is overall, not limited to engineering, and Wisconsin is a ways ahead of Purdue. This suggests that Wisconsin's OVERALL ranking makes up for them being somewhat below in engineering. I'd also state that this final link, if you read methodology, has a lot more to do with graduate research than undergraduate education. Which is important, but is a completely different metric than quality of undergrad education.
And to my point, although Wisconsin is good but several places below Illinois/Purdue on the list, the other two, PSU and OSU, are farther down. Not bad, but still below.
When you consider the sheer number of engineering schools (>500) in this country, I'd argue that they are ranked similarly. 
Any school in the top 25 is elite. Think about this.
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betarhoalphadelta

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Re: US News P5 Academic Rankings
« Reply #26 on: July 24, 2018, 03:07:49 PM »
Serious question, what jobs are there/industries where employers are actually looking at where you went to undergrad, and/or your transcripts?
I think it matters for your first job, but not beyond that.

Even in engineering, it rarely matters much beyond your first job. Once you get into the industry for a few years, it's all about work experience. 
That said, I've had a lot of people comment favorably to me about other engineers they've had from Purdue*. 
I don't think having that sort of reputation makes much of a difference except MAYBE at the margins, if you have two candidates who are equal in all other ways. But 5-10 years beyond college, you don't have candidates that are equal in that way because they actually have real-world experience to base decisions on. 
* FWIW, I'll bet engineers from all the "top" schools get this sort of feedback. Obviously I haven't heard it because I'm a Boilermaker rather than a Wolverine, or Illini, or Badger, etc. 

betarhoalphadelta

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Re: US News P5 Academic Rankings
« Reply #27 on: July 24, 2018, 03:11:57 PM »

I've worked several places where school (and honors, but not grades) mattered; more to the point, with several people involved in hiring who cared deeply about what school applicants attended. And I've worked with a lot of clients who viewed the world the same way. Yes, graduate programs mattered more, but in hiring for positions that required undergrad, but not graduate degrees, undergrad institution matters, too.

I've never liked it, but those biases definitely exist out there in the world.
The only people I've seen like this are the people who went to "networking" schools. Here on the West Coast, USC is the prime example of this. 
I suppose it might be a self-fulfilling prophecy. If you drop a quarter-million dollars or so on your education, you want the name on that diploma to be a SIGNIFICANT door-opener for you. As a result, once you get get to a position of power, you allow that name to open doors for those you hire at a rate beyond what they'd probably get on their own. 
I haven't seen as much of that bias from the folks who went to large, public, state schools. 

 

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