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Topic: Understanding the NCAA Tournament

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OrangeAfroMan

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Re: Understanding the NCAA Tournament
« Reply #28 on: March 08, 2022, 01:39:13 AM »
OAM doesn't like the NCAAT... Too "entertaining".

He'd prefer Duke and UNC and UK and Kansas battle it out head to head each year. They're the best. Everyone else need not apply.
Honestly, the "never gonna win its" group of teams in the tournament each year is akin to football's G5 teams.  And like Cincinnati getting into the CFP, it's all a big, fat lie.  Hooray, basketball gives them all a seat at the table!!!  And they never, EVER get dessert.  It's bullshit.  They'll never win it, ever.  It's spending more time with your wife, all while texting your mistress. 

There are 124 FBS teams and 4 get into the playoff.  That's 3.2%.  Exclusive.  An attempt to have the elite teams play to determine a champion.

There are 350 Division 1 basketball teams and 68 get into the tournament.  19.4%.  Inclusive.  An attempt to get as many games played with X% yielding exciting results in a cash-grab.  A 6-seed wins it all?  Great, we'll call them Cinderella and play "One shining moment" all the same. 
Hooray!!!
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

medinabuckeye1

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Re: Understanding the NCAA Tournament
« Reply #29 on: March 08, 2022, 11:56:38 AM »
You would be eliminating any point of the regular season.  Low majors, sorry, you're out before it starts.  High majors, congrats, just based on your conference membership, you basically have to just be not horrible.
Taking these one at a time:

Eliminating any point of the regular season.

  • "Low majors, sorry, you're out before it starts."  How is that different than now?  Now or under my proposal they get an auto-bid but they don't have a plausible chance to win the tournament.  Also, the extra 12 at-large bids wouldn't be limited to high majors so low majors would have more chances to get into the tournament that they can't win.  
  • "High majors, congrats, just based on your conference membership, you basically have to just be not horrible."  Two things:  First, it isn't based on conference membership, it is based on statistically valid comparisons of teams.  Per NET Nebraska is the worst team in the B1G and they are substantially better than the best team in the SWAC.  Second, how is this different than now?  Lunardi currently has eight B1G teams in with three on the bubble:  Michigan is the last team to avoid the play-in, Rutgers is in a play-in, and Indiana is the first team out.  Those three teams are 11-9/17-13, 12-8/18-12, and 9-11/18-12.  Indiana played their typically pathetic OOC in which their only loss was their Challenge game then went sub .500 in the league.  They are 3-8 on the road and 3-7 in Q1 games.  They aren't horrible and they are substantially better than about two dozen teams that will make the tournament but they aren't a good team and they don't even remotely resemble a Championship caliber team but they are squarely on the bubble.  If they beat Michigan on Thursday night they are probably in.  If your contention is that we shouldn't let in mediocre teams, that ship already sailed.  We are already letting in mediocre teams at 68 (and would be at 64 as well).  
Beyond that, why do we want better, mediocre P5 teams in?  Do we want them to win?  I sure as hell don't.  It's part of the reward for a great season, that you open with a few facto bye game.  In the small minority of cases you lose that bye game,.that's fine, and fun.
I get the argument for the bye.  The #1 seeds earned the right to play the little sisters of the poor in round one but I still have a fundamental problem with letting in as many tallest midgets as we do.  I'd be fine staying at 68 (or preferably going back to 64) if we'd put in a rule that conferences only get auto-bids if they have at least one team in the top 80 or 100 of the final NET rankings.  This year that would cut your auto-bids from 32 down to 19 and increase your at-large slots from 36 up to 45 or 49.  You'd still have a few really bad teams in the tournament but they would have earned their way in by winning a league tournament in which there was at least one team that my High School couldn't beat.  
It would be one thing if these mid majors were consistently.taking advantage of their autobids, upsetting a bunch of teams, and winning titles.  They aren't.  So replacing them with blah P5 teams, will either produce the same results, but in a less interesting manner, or they'll start winning more, which I think would actually be worse.
I really don't get this argument at all.  If the mid majors were consistently upsetting a bunch of teams and winning titles then:
  • After a few occasions they wouldn't be upsets anymore, they'd be expected, and
  • It would be abundantly apparent that our ranking systems are seriously flawed.  
They are upsets when the mid majors win and our ranking systems aren't seriously flawed as evidenced by the fact that out of 576 teams seeded #13 and higher exactly zero have EVER won a second-weekend game.  Our ranking systems say that those teams suck and those ranking systems are NOT wrong.  Those teams do suck.  Sure, they occasionally pull off an upset but that is mostly a volume issue.  Broken clocks are right twice a day.  They've had 576 first round opportunities and won 63 games (22% for the 13's, 15% for the 14's, 6% for the 15's, and 1% for the 16's).  They've had 63 second round opportunities and won 10 games (19% for the 13's, 9% for the 14's, 22% for the 15's, and NONE for the 16's).  They've had 10 second weekend opportunities and NEVER won.  

I'd much rather see the SWAC Champion tallest midget play the Michigan/Indiana loser in a game that could conceivably go either way than to see them matched up against Arizona, Baylor, or Kentucky in a laugher.  
Football is different, because the field is so small.  By giving a spot to an autobid, you are taking a spot from a legit title contender, a worthy top 5 claim team.  In basketball the bubble teams have zero claim to be deserving of a national title.  They are just the beneficiary of the format of the event.  That's what it is, an event, that includes the conference tourneys.  Once you start taking it as seriously as being upset that the 9th place Big Ten team is out to let the SWAC champ in, you are treating it as something completely different than what it is.  If that's what you want, that's fine.  But in that case you shouldn't want any sort of monstrous single elimination bracket
I strongly agree that Football is vastly different.  The small field in football is why I was adamantly opposed when you and others suggested a CFB tournament that included all conference Champions.  I strongly oppose that because it would be not only unfair but insane to exclude an actual NC Caliber runner-up (or probably tie-breaker loser) from the SEC or B1G in order to make room for the tallest midget from the MAC.  The example I always use is 2019 when MAC Champion Miami, OH was 8-5 with losses:
  • by 14 to Ball State
  • by 22 to WMU
  • by 22 to Cincy - AAC Champ
  • by 24 to Iowa - a middling B1G team
  • by 71 (not a typo, SEVENTY-ONE) to tOSU - B1G Champ

I don't feel as strongly about Basketball because the excluded teams (ie, the IU/M loser) are NOT legitimate NC Contenders anyway.  

But that leads me to my conclusion that we SHOULD expand to 80 teams.  We are ALREADY taking a slew of teams that are NOT legitimate NC Contenders:
  • 23 leagues do NOT have a team in the top-25 of the NET rankings.  Those 23 auto-qualifiers are NOT legitimate NC Contenders even if the best team in the league wins.  
  • At least half of the 36 at-large teams are NOT legitimate NC Contenders.  Call it half or 18 making 41 total.  

So you have a "National Championship Tournament" in which we've accepted up front that 41 of the 68 entrants are NOT legitimate NC Contenders.  What difference would it make for us to make it 53 of the 80?  Either way there are a slew of teams that are only there for show but my way gives us a better schedule (16-game days on the weekend) and a lot more games that could go either way, and my way isn't quite as grossly unfair to major conference teams.  

betarhoalphadelta

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Re: Understanding the NCAA Tournament
« Reply #30 on: March 08, 2022, 12:38:52 PM »
I don't feel as strongly about Basketball because the excluded teams (ie, the IU/M loser) are NOT legitimate NC Contenders anyway. 

But that leads me to my conclusion that we SHOULD expand to 80 teams.  We are ALREADY taking a slew of teams that are NOT legitimate NC Contenders:
  • 23 leagues do NOT have a team in the top-25 of the NET rankings.  Those 23 auto-qualifiers are NOT legitimate NC Contenders even if the best team in the league wins. 
  • At least half of the 36 at-large teams are NOT legitimate NC Contenders.  Call it half or 18 making 41 total. 

So you have a "National Championship Tournament" in which we've accepted up front that 41 of the 68 entrants are NOT legitimate NC Contenders.  What difference would it make for us to make it 53 of the 80?  Either way there are a slew of teams that are only there for show but my way gives us a better schedule (16-game days on the weekend) and a lot more games that could go either way, and my way isn't quite as grossly unfair to major conference teams. 

What I don't get is why everything that you said (which I agree with) about tallest midgets gets you to the conclusion that we need to expand? 

I.e. yeah, we let in the conference champ Little Sisters of the Poor and that means that teams with terrible resumes, such as Indiana, get excluded. But the reward for EITHER setting a NET ranking cutoff for conference champions OR expanding to 80 teams is... Letting Indiana into the tournament? Why should they have a reward for being mediocre? 

IMHO they should go back to 64, and if that means a few less mediocre P5 teams get in, so be it. Nobody lower than an 8 seed has ever won the whole damn thing anyway, so it's excluding teams that can be easily excluded with no real downside. If they're not going to do that, they should make the play-in games all for 16-seed spots, so at least it's the Little Sisters of the Poor that have to play-in rather than 11-seed teams that are FAR superior to them. 

But nothing you have said justifies why we should go to 80. 

MaximumSam

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Re: Understanding the NCAA Tournament
« Reply #31 on: March 08, 2022, 01:11:48 PM »
Yeah I don't really see the argument for expanding. They don't need more teams. It is correct criticism to say not the best 68 teams get in. But so what? The tradeoff is every team in Division 1 can play their way in, and it leads to the best postseason in sports. They could reverse course and shrink the field to the top 16 teams or whatever, which would make the regular season more important, but I dunno. Would probably make both the regular season and the postseason more boring.

OrangeAfroMan

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Re: Understanding the NCAA Tournament
« Reply #32 on: March 08, 2022, 01:18:27 PM »
There are 2 types of people in this debate: 
those who want to go along with the big lie
and
those who don't

.
The big lie being that by letting everyone in, they all have a shot at the NC.  But they don't.  So it's a lie.  

You can let me enter the Boston Marathon 20 years in a row, and I'm not winning it.  I'm not coming close.  So why bother entering every year?
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

MaximumSam

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Re: Understanding the NCAA Tournament
« Reply #33 on: March 08, 2022, 01:20:23 PM »
There are 2 types of people in this debate:
those who want to go along with the big lie
and
those who don't

.
The big lie being that by letting everyone in, they all have a shot at the NC.  But they don't.  So it's a lie. 

You can let me enter the Boston Marathon 20 years in a row, and I'm not winning it.  I'm not coming close.  So why bother entering every year?
?? They do have the same shot at the national championship. That's not a lie, that's reality. The fact that some teams are better than others is a fact of sports, not a lie. If you can't handle that, sports are not for you.

OrangeAfroMan

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Re: Understanding the NCAA Tournament
« Reply #34 on: March 08, 2022, 01:25:33 PM »
They do not have the same shot, they have a much tougher shot, technically, and no shot, actually.


Let's say you're a 13 seed, maybe a Vermont or something, and you're in the BIG DANCE!  Woo-hoo!  What's your prize?  An opponent that's radically better than you.

Okay, say you pull the upset, great!  What's your prize?  An opponent that's drastically better than you.

You're rewarded the same way, over and over, every time you pull off a miracle, until at some point - BOOM - you get buzz-sawed and lose.  

If I'm a 4-seed.....not the same thing.  I play a worse opponent, then an equal opponent, then a better opponent.  I need exactly 1 upset, 1 minor upset, to make the Elite 8.  

You're going to pretend these paths are the "same shot"?!?!?
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

OrangeAfroMan

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Re: Understanding the NCAA Tournament
« Reply #35 on: March 08, 2022, 01:26:04 PM »
"on paper" vs "in reality"


Think about it.  Then edit your post.  Or delete it.  
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

betarhoalphadelta

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Re: Understanding the NCAA Tournament
« Reply #36 on: March 08, 2022, 02:06:24 PM »
There are 2 types of people in this debate:
those who want to go along with the big lie
and
those who don't

.
The big lie being that by letting everyone in, they all have a shot at the NC.  But they don't.  So it's a lie. 

You can let me enter the Boston Marathon 20 years in a row, and I'm not winning it.  I'm not coming close.  So why bother entering every year?
The point is that you CAN enter the Boston Marathon. Pay your entrance fee and you're in. It's within your own control. No, you won't win. You don't even have a chance. But you can enter. It's YOUR choice. 

The argument for an egalitarian (all conference champions) tournament is that you control your own destiny to get in. Win your conference. That's it. You're in. What you do with it from there is up to you. 

Yes, over half of the 68 teams in the tournament are not realistically going to have any likelihood of winning it. But they have absolutely zero chance if they're excluded before it even starts. If that's the case, they're not playing the same sport as the big boys. 

In football, it's harder. Football is a violently dangerous game, and requires a week of rest between games to recover. It's really not particularly feasible to have, say, a 16-team playoff after a 12+CCG week conference season, and let all 10 FBS conference champions in. 

In football, the big lie is that the G5 teams are playing the same sport, for the same trophy as the P5. In basketball, they ARE playing the same sport, for the same trophy. They're not going to win it, but at least nobody is excluding them from having a chance. 

medinabuckeye1

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Re: Understanding the NCAA Tournament
« Reply #37 on: March 08, 2022, 02:50:39 PM »
What I don't get is why everything that you said (which I agree with) about tallest midgets gets you to the conclusion that we need to expand?

I.e. yeah, we let in the conference champ Little Sisters of the Poor and that means that teams with terrible resumes, such as Indiana, get excluded. But the reward for EITHER setting a NET ranking cutoff for conference champions OR expanding to 80 teams is... Letting Indiana into the tournament? Why should they have a reward for being mediocre?

IMHO they should go back to 64, and if that means a few less mediocre P5 teams get in, so be it. Nobody lower than an 8 seed has ever won the whole damn thing anyway, so it's excluding teams that can be easily excluded with no real downside. If they're not going to do that, they should make the play-in games all for 16-seed spots, so at least it's the Little Sisters of the Poor that have to play-in rather than 11-seed teams that are FAR superior to them.

But nothing you have said justifies why we should go to 80.
What I object to is the ridiculous disparity between teams like Rutgers, Indiana, and Michigan which are all on the bubble and the almost 20 teams that will get in despite being VASTLY inferior to RU/IU/M.  I noted upthread that there are two sources of BAD teams in the tournament:
  • Conference tournament upsets, and
  • Conferences that simply don't have ANY decent teams. 
I don't really object to #1.  Like I said upthread, if Georgia or Nebraska win the SEC/B1G, they'll have earned their bid.  My objection is more about the just awful leagues. 

You talk about IU being mediocre (because you like saying that) and I'll add Rutgers and Michigan (because I like saying that).  IU/RU/M ARE mediocre but relative to what?  They are mediocre relative to UW/IL/PU but they are NOT mediocre relative to the best teams in a dozen or more leagues that WILL get auto-bids.  IU/RU/M would smoke the best teams in a dozen leagues and they'd smoke an all-star team made up of the best players from all the teams in probably half-a-dozen leagues. 

The situation would be slightly less unfair to the major conference schools if we added a dozen at-large slots such that .500ish B1G teams like IU/RU/M would be comfortably in and the only excluded teams from a league as strong as ours* would be the teams well below .500. 

Secondly, I'd really like to have the Tournament's busiest days (the 16 game days) on the weekend.  My proposal would do that by having the 16 play-in games  on Thursday/Friday (8 per day) then the R64 games on Saturday/Sunday (16 per day) then the R32 games on Monday/Tuesday (8 per day). 

*Note:
This isn't simply about "brand".  I'm not saying that .500 B1G teams should get in just because they are from the B1G, I'm saying they should get in because the ranking systems that we have say they are among the top 31 (Michigan), 44 (Indiana), or 76 (Rutgers) teams in the nation.  I realize that RU at #76 is the outlier here but I think most mock brackets have them a lot higher than that ranking would suggest because the thing holding their ranking down is three bad losses (@DePaul, vs Lafayette, @UMASS) that occurred consecutively in November.  I think most people (myself included) feel that Rutgers is a MUCH better team now.  
« Last Edit: March 08, 2022, 02:56:17 PM by medinabuckeye1 »

MaximumSam

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Re: Understanding the NCAA Tournament
« Reply #38 on: March 08, 2022, 02:53:16 PM »
"on paper" vs "in reality"


Think about it.  Then edit your post.  Or delete it. 
Buddy...you are under the delusion that making sports a glorified round of pachinko makes it better. To the contrary, that some teams are much better than others makes sports fun. You seem to want the postseason to be more like bingo - no upsets, no self - determination, just luck. The good news is instead of watching sports you could play bingo.

OrangeAfroMan

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Re: Understanding the NCAA Tournament
« Reply #39 on: March 08, 2022, 03:13:55 PM »
Buddy...you are under the delusion that making sports a glorified round of pachinko makes it better. To the contrary, that some teams are much better than others makes sports fun. You seem to want the postseason to be more like bingo - no upsets, no self - determination, just luck. 
What is the purpose of the postseason?  Let's start there.
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

OrangeAfroMan

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Re: Understanding the NCAA Tournament
« Reply #40 on: March 08, 2022, 03:14:32 PM »
This is funny, in the conversation I'm not participating in, I disagree with both sides. 
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

betarhoalphadelta

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Re: Understanding the NCAA Tournament
« Reply #41 on: March 08, 2022, 03:16:28 PM »
What I object to is the ridiculous disparity between teams like Rutgers, Indiana, and Michigan which are all on the bubble and the almost 20 teams that will get in despite being VASTLY inferior to RU/IU/M.  I noted upthread that there are two sources of BAD teams in the tournament:
  • Conference tournament upsets, and
  • Conferences that simply don't have ANY decent teams. 
I don't really object to #1.  Like I said upthread, if Georgia or Nebraska win the SEC/B1G, they'll have earned their bid.  My objection is more about the just awful leagues. 

You talk about IU being mediocre (because you like saying that) and I'll add Rutgers and Michigan (because I like saying that).  IU/RU/M ARE mediocre but relative to what?  They are mediocre relative to UW/IL/PU but they are NOT mediocre relative to the best teams in a dozen or more leagues that WILL get auto-bids.  IU/RU/M would smoke the best teams in a dozen leagues and they'd smoke an all-star team made up of the best players from all the teams in probably half-a-dozen leagues. 

The situation would be slightly less unfair to the major conference schools if we added a dozen at-large slots such that .500ish B1G teams like IU/RU/M would be comfortably in and the only excluded teams from a league as strong as ours* would be the teams well below .500. 

Secondly, I'd really like to have the Tournament's busiest days (the 16 game days) on the weekend.  My proposal would do that by having the 16 play-in games  on Thursday/Friday (8 per day) then the R64 games on Saturday/Sunday (16 per day) then the R32 games on Monday/Tuesday (8 per day). 

*Note:
This isn't simply about "brand".  I'm not saying that .500 B1G teams should get in just because they are from the B1G, I'm saying they should get in because the ranking systems that we have say they are among the top 31 (Michigan), 44 (Indiana), or 76 (Rutgers) teams in the nation.  I realize that RU at #76 is the outlier here but I think most mock brackets have them a lot higher than that ranking would suggest because the thing holding their ranking down is three bad losses (@DePaul, vs Lafayette, @UMASS) that occurred consecutively in November.  I think most people (myself included) feel that Rutgers is a MUCH better team now. 
Unfair? 

Boo effing hoo...

Making the tournament for a P5 team should signify some level of accomplishment. If Purdue is sweating the bubble (or worse), I consider it to be an unsuccessful season. I don't feel like the tournament should move the finish line closer to the start just so a few more teams can get in. 

64 is plenty. If we set a maximum NET rating cutoff for conference champions, I'd rather we consolidate to, say, 48 teams rather than boosting it to 80.

Likewise I wouldn't hate it if CFB bowl eligibility raised to >.500, not >=.500, so that you needed 7-5, not 6-6, to qualify. And I hate hate hate the idea that we're letting 5-7 teams in because we have too many bowl contracts and not enough teams to fill them. 

 

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