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Topic: Understanding the NCAA Tournament

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medinabuckeye1

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Understanding the NCAA Tournament
« on: March 07, 2022, 12:20:19 PM »
Here are the historic percentages of each seed to win at each round:

The above are percentages of the TOTAL not the winning percentage for those seeds that got that far, ie:

  • 15.97% of #1 seeds won the NC (23 out of 144). 
  • 3.47% of #2 seeds won the NC (5 out of 144).
  • etc
Below are the winning percentages by seed in each round:

#1 seeds win at least three out of five games in EACH round.  They are above 80% in each of the first three rounds and right around 60% in the E8, F4, and NC. 

There are two big distinctions that I want to identify, explore, and explain:

First, #1 seeds are a breed apart: 
They are MUCH better than everybody else.  I think this makes sense intuitively.  IMHO there are usually between about two and six teams in the country that are just a LOT better than everybody else.  These teams make up generally the #1 seeds.  Sometimes there aren't enough of them and you get one or two weaker (relatively) #1 seeds or one or two VERY GOOD #2 seeds but, in general, the #1 seeds are just REALLY good.  Even with the #2 seeds there are chinks in the armor.  They are good teams, I'm not saying that they aren't, but they have identifiable weaknesses. 

#1 seeds have the best winning percentage of any seed in each of the first three rounds.  Thus, an individual #1 seed has a nearly 70% chance to make the E8.  This is nearly double the chance that an individual team of any other seed will make the E8. 

The E8 is the first round in which the #1 seeds do not have the best winning percentage but even there they are fourth and there are two things to note about the seeds that do better in the E8:

First, the seeds that do better than #1 in the E8 are:
  • #5 seeds win 77.8% of their E8 games (7-2)
  • #4 seeds win 61.9% of their E8 games (13-8)
  • #8 seeds win 62.5% of their E8 games (5-3)
Does anything stand out to you about those particular seeds? 

Well, none of them have to play a #1 in the E8 because #8 seeds already did in the second round and the #5 and #4 seeds already either beat a #1 in the S16 or beat an 8/9 that beat a #1. 

Secondly there is a lack of data issue.  #1 seeds have won 60% of their E8 games (60-40).  There have been 100 instances of a #1 playing an E8 game.  The three seeds that are "better" in the E8 have only played a combined total of 38. 

Moving on to the other big gap:
The 5/12 upset is well known to anyone with even a passing interest in CBB but here is the thing:  5/12 upsets aren't more likely than 6/11 upsets, they are slightly less likely than 6/11 upsets but 5/12 upsets are MUCH more likely than 4/13 upsets.  Why? 

Well, there are two theoretical possibilities, either:
  • #4 seeds are substantially better than #5 seeds, or
  • #12 seeds are substantially better than #13 seeds. 
Which is it?  It is the latter, #12 seeds are substantially better than #13 seeds, but why?  Well, I'm going to tell you but first lets disprove the idea that #4 seeds are substantially better than #5 seeds:
  • In the second round the gap between #4 and #5 tightens while the gap between #12 and #13 widens. 
  • In the S16 both the #4's and the #5's have very poor winning percentages (because they are almost always playing #1) but the gap isn't that big, the #13's have NEVER won a S16 game while the #12's have won two. 
  • In the E8 the #5's actually do BETTER than the #4's and they also do better in the semi-final before crashing they've never won a NC. 
So then, why are #12's so much better than #13's?  I'm glad you asked, here is the key reason:

The above shows all 32 leagues that will get an auto-bid.  The top-15 (down through Am East) each have at least one team in the top-68 which I'm using as a rough proxy for "tournament quality" because, of course, 68 teams make the tournament.  After that the next few leagues listed have at least one team that is at least borderline "tournament quality".  The top teams in the SoCon, Summit League, MAAC, and MAC are in the 70's in the NET rankings.  Then there is a fairly large drop to the MWC whose best team (NMST) is #86.  Then there is a humongous drop to the Ivy League whose best team (Princeton) is #109). 

The bottom 12 leagues (starting with the Ivy) do not have any teams even remotely good enough to be involved in the National Championship tournament.  Their Champions are purely "tallest midgets" and nearly all of them will get unceremoniously dismissed in the first round.  A lucky few will pull off first round upsets and once in a while one will win a second round game to make the S16 but in the 36 Tournaments since expansion to 64 teams (1985-2021 not including 2020) no #13 or lower has EVER won a second weekend NCAA Tournament game. 

Think about that for a minute.  There have been 576 #13-#16 seeded teams and those 576 teams have won a grand combined total of ZERO second weekend NCAA games.  These teams simply don't belong. 

There are actually two sources of REALLY bad NCAA Tournament teams:
  • As demonstrated above, there are about 12 leagues where it simply doesn't matter who wins the league, none of the teams are any good, and
  • There are, of course, league tournament upsets.  Nebraska (#166) or Georgia (#216) could get hot and win the B1G or SEC.  This, however, isn't likely because either of them would have to beat a slew of actual tournament quality teams to pull that off.  In the middling leagues, however, you have situations like the Am East where the best team is a respectable Vermont team (#63) but the second best team is UMBC (#235).  Thus, if Vermont gets upset in the league tournament then the Am East will send a REALLY bad team to the NCAA.  Similarly in the Summit League the best team is a decent SoDakSt (#71) but the second best is Oral Roberts (#146). 
Note that this does not vary all that much from year to year.  Here is the data for this year and the last two tournaments:

The bottom ten leagues didn't have a team in the top-68 in 2022, 2021, or 2019.  Then, depending on the year, there were another six or seven leagues that didn't have a top-68 team in that particular year. 

Based on that and the upsets, there are around 12-18 teams in the tournament every year that are just flat awful.  These teams make up roughly the #13-#16 seeds. 
« Last Edit: March 07, 2022, 12:32:57 PM by medinabuckeye1 »

medinabuckeye1

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Re: Understanding the NCAA Tournament
« Reply #1 on: March 07, 2022, 12:32:22 PM »
For the reasons outlined above, I have long favored expanding the NCAA Tournament from the current 68-team format to 80 teams.  I would eliminate the goofy oddity of having some teams that aren't the worst seeds playing play-in games and just effectively make the bottom eight teams in each region face a play-in game.  I would expand the pods as follows:

  • 1, 8, 9, 16:  add #17.  
  • 2, 7, 10, 15:  add #18.  
  • 3, 6, 11, 14:  add #19.  
  • 4, 5, 12, 13:  add #20.  
Then I'd expand the first weekend from four days to six as follows:
Thursday/Friday:
  • One game per pod.  
  • Two games per site.  
  • Eight games per day.  
  • 16 games total to get down to 64 teams.  
Saturday/Sunday:
  • Two games per pod.  
  • Four games per site.  
  • 16 games per day.  
  • 32 games total to get down to 32 teams.  
Monday/Tuesday:
  • One game per pod.  
  • Two games per site.  
  • Eight games per day.  
  • 16 games total to get down to the S16.  

Advantages:
  • Better viewing experience for fans because the BUSY days would be Saturday/Sunday instead of Thursday/Friday.  
  • More chances of upsets:  Down the the 5/12 games, the lower seed has at least a one-in-three chance of winning but after that the #13-#16 seeds have only about a one-in-five or less chance of winning because they aren't any good.  By forcing the #13 and below to play-in, you'd improve the quality of the #13-16 seeds so that you'd end up with more upsets in the 1/16, 2/15, 3/14, and 3/13 games.  
  • Winnable games for all conferences/teams:  Some leagues haven't won a tournament game in years because they just aren't very good so each year their Champion (tallest midget) gets matched up against one of the best teams in the Country and gets drilled.  Instead, I'd have their Champion playing a better but beatable team in the #13-#16 range.  
  • Reduces the disparity and unfairness to major conference teams who get a seriously raw deal.  Look at Indiana.  In order to make the tournament at this point they probably need to knock off multiple tournament teams in the BTT but note that Indiana (#43 in the NET) would be the best team in 20 leagues this year.  


Honestbuckeye

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Re: Understanding the NCAA Tournament
« Reply #2 on: March 07, 2022, 12:57:25 PM »
Medina-  dude,  you are a gem!
Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please.
-Mark Twain

ELA

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Re: Understanding the NCAA Tournament
« Reply #3 on: March 07, 2022, 01:17:26 PM »
There is understanding it and UNDERSTANDING it


https://youtu.be/4MhGQqxaI2E

betarhoalphadelta

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Re: Understanding the NCAA Tournament
« Reply #4 on: March 07, 2022, 03:28:05 PM »
Personally, I don't like the idea of adding teams. 

Assuming we're sticking at 68, I would make all 16 seeds play-in games instead of the current, where (2) of the 16-seed and (2) of the 11-seed games are play-in.

You may argue that those 11-seed teams are the bottom of the barrel of P5 teams, so it makes sense to have them as play-in, right? No. Those 11-seed play-in game teams are so far ahead of the 16-seed play-in game teams that merely as mid-grade P5 teams they'd pound the 16-seed teams by 30 points. 

Honestly, the truth is that 1-4 vs 13-16 seed games are usually snoozers. Why is that a bad thing? Yes, they're bad TV. I get that. But there are so many games on during those 2 days that there will be plenty of compelling TV to watch, and because you're constantly seeing up to 3 different scores on the top info bar on the broadcast of the game you're watching you know if any of those 1-4 vs 13-16 matchups are potential upsets, and can flip over to them as necessary. 

The 1-4 vs 13-16 games are a reward for those teams who got a top 4 seed, that they're not getting beat unless they have a REALLY bad day. I think that's fine and don't see a problem with it. 

utee94

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Re: Understanding the NCAA Tournament
« Reply #5 on: March 07, 2022, 03:30:39 PM »
I would like to see 137 teams admitted.

medinabuckeye1

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Re: Understanding the NCAA Tournament
« Reply #6 on: March 07, 2022, 03:45:44 PM »
The baseline data:

That is wins in each round so, for example, #1 seeds are:

  • 143-1 in the first round against #16.  
  • 123-20 in the second round against #8/9.  
  • 100-23 in the S16 against #4/5/12/13.  
  • 60-40 in the E8 against 2/3/6/7/10/11/14.  
  • 37-23 in the National Semi-Final.  
  • 23-14 in the National Championship.  
Also of note:
  • #16 seeds have never been to the S16.  
  • #13, #14, and #15 seeds have never won a S16 game.
  • #12 seeds have never been to the F4.  
  • #9, #10, and #11 seeds have never won a F4 game.  
  • #5 seeds have never won a NC.  
  • #1, #2, #3, #4, #6, #7, and #8 have each won at least one NC (albeit for #4 and below it is exactly one each).  

Also, @betarhoalphadelta has talked about Purdue's seeming penchant for getting the highest possible seed every round and there is definitely some luck involved there but here are the percentage chances:
Who you will play in the second round:


Who you will play in the S16:


Who you will play in the E8:


Who you will play in the F4:


Who you will play in the NC:

OrangeAfroMan

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Re: Understanding the NCAA Tournament
« Reply #7 on: March 07, 2022, 04:05:36 PM »
Nice deep dive, love it!


But honestly, when does football season start up again?
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

847badgerfan

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Re: Understanding the NCAA Tournament
« Reply #8 on: March 07, 2022, 04:38:44 PM »
Nice deep dive, love it!


But honestly, when does football season start up again?
Shad app.


As you continue to age and mature, you will understand that you never want to wish away any time.

Unless you're in jail.
U RAH RAH! WIS CON SIN!

medinabuckeye1

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Re: Understanding the NCAA Tournament
« Reply #9 on: March 07, 2022, 04:45:07 PM »
As you continue to age and mature, you will understand that you never want to wish away any time.

Unless you're in jail.
This part:  So true.  

This part:  Thankfully I don't know.  

rolltidefan

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Re: Understanding the NCAA Tournament
« Reply #10 on: March 07, 2022, 05:26:28 PM »

betarhoalphadelta

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Re: Understanding the NCAA Tournament
« Reply #11 on: March 07, 2022, 05:31:54 PM »

Also, @betarhoalphadelta has talked about Purdue's seeming penchant for getting the highest possible seed every round and there is definitely some luck involved there but here are the percentage chances:
Yeah, it's somewhat tongue in cheek... And it's not strictly even true... 2011 we were a #3 and faced #11 VCU, who had beaten the 6 seed, in the second round... That VCU team ran like a buzzsaw through the region, beating us at #3 by 18 points and then #1 seed Kansas by 10 points in the E8 to make the F4...

But part of it has to do with all the moronic Purdue fans who would claim that Matt Painter has a "Sweet 16 ceiling", when his first three times making the S16, Purdue was a 4 seed and faced the 1 seed. The fourth time we made the Sweet 16 we were a #2 seed, and faced #3 seed Texas Tech--but that was the year that Isaac Haas had his elbow broken in the R64 game, so we were NOT anywhere near full strength.

The next time we were in the S16, we were a #3 and at full strength, and beat #2 Tennessee in the S16 and took #1 UVA to the wire--we led the game as the clock ticked 0:00, but the wing and a prayer tying shot for UVA to force overtime [where they won] was already in the air.

But life as a Purdue fan is well known... If we didn't have bad luck, we'd have no luck at all...

MaximumSam

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Re: Understanding the NCAA Tournament
« Reply #12 on: March 07, 2022, 06:28:42 PM »
I remain annoyed they went from 64 to 68 teams. "We have the most perfect postseason in sports? Let's mess around with it."

medinabuckeye1

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Re: Understanding the NCAA Tournament
« Reply #13 on: March 07, 2022, 07:16:54 PM »
I remain annoyed they went from 64 to 68 teams. "We have the most perfect postseason in sports? Let's mess around with it."
I'm of course in favor except that it should be this way:
Assuming we're sticking at 68, I would make all 16 seeds play-in games instead of the current, where (2) of the 16-seed and (2) of the 11-seed games are play-in.

You may argue that those 11-seed teams are the bottom of the barrel of P5 teams, so it makes sense to have them as play-in, right? No. Those 11-seed play-in game teams are so far ahead of the 16-seed play-in game teams that merely as mid-grade P5 teams they'd pound the 16-seed teams by 30 points.
The expansion, as I understand it was due to an increase in the number of leagues (and thus auto bids). Extra tallest midgets shouldn't further screw over vastly superior power league teams who are already disadvantaged by the system which is one of the biggest reasons I favor expansion here.

 

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