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Topic: Understanding the NCAA Tournament

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MrNubbz

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Re: Understanding the NCAA Tournament
« Reply #42 on: March 08, 2022, 03:53:22 PM »
Quote from: OrangeAfroMan on March 08, 2022, 01:18:27 PM
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The big lie being that by letting everyone in, they all have a shot at the NC.  But they don't.  So it's a lie. 

You can let me enter the Boston Marathon 20 years in a row, and I'm not winning it.  I'm not coming close.  So why bother entering every year?

You don't win debate's around here but you plunge head long into those - can't leave yourself open like that you should know that by now
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ELA

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Re: Understanding the NCAA Tournament
« Reply #43 on: March 08, 2022, 04:43:40 PM »
Quote from: medinabuckeye1 on March 08, 2022, 11:56:38 AM
I really don't get this argument at all.  If the mid majors were consistently upsetting a bunch of teams and winning titles then:
  • After a few occasions they wouldn't be upsets anymore, they'd be expected, and
  • It would be abundantly apparent that our ranking systems are seriously flawed. 
They are upsets when the mid majors win and our ranking systems aren't seriously flawed as evidenced by the fact that out of 576 teams seeded #13 and higher exactly zero have EVER won a second-weekend game.  Our ranking systems say that those teams suck and those ranking systems are NOT wrong.  Those teams do suck.  Sure, they occasionally pull off an upset but that is mostly a volume issue.  Broken clocks are right twice a day.  They've had 576 first round opportunities and won 63 games (22% for the 13's, 15% for the 14's, 6% for the 15's, and 1% for the 16's).  They've had 63 second round opportunities and won 10 games (19% for the 13's, 9% for the 14's, 22% for the 15's, and NONE for the 16's).  They've had 10 second weekend opportunities and NEVER won. 
I (a) like the de facto byes; and (b) don't want to see middling power conference teams that MIGHT win.  Nobody is arguing that the mid-major teams are better.  But it rewards Power 5 teams for great seasons, and creates way more meaningful games.

If you want this to be truly the best teams, then you need to contract it.  Adding more middling Power 5 teams, just means you'll see more boring upsets.  Is Vandy better than Texas Southern?  Sure.  Neither one is likely going to win, but Vandy is MORE likely to win.  I'd rather reward the better team for having that season, and if it goes south, at least it's fun.  Instead of having more of them randomly knocked out by teams like Vandy, who had like 25 chances previously
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MaximumSam

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Re: Understanding the NCAA Tournament
« Reply #44 on: March 08, 2022, 05:16:32 PM »
Quote from: OrangeAfroMan on March 08, 2022, 03:13:55 PM
What is the purpose of the postseason?  Let's start there.
The postseason is something after the season. It's main purpose is to provide entertainment and make money. Typically (though not always) results in some sort of playoff or something to crown a champion.
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Kris60

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Re: Understanding the NCAA Tournament
« Reply #45 on: March 08, 2022, 06:40:58 PM »
My two cents.  I’m ok with the current makeup of both college football and basketball postseasons.  I don’t want basketball to expand.  I’d be ok if football stayed at 4 or went to 8.

OAM made an analogy to the Boston Marathon.  There is something to be said for just having the opportunity to participate in a big event.  I know a lady who qualified to run in the BM.  It’s one of the highlights of her life.  Of course she didn’t stand a chance to win but just being able to compete was a huge accomplishment to her.  Same with small schools in the NCAA.

Also, as opposed to football, basketball lends itself to upsets a little more.  So, I’m ok with the little guys getting an invite.

I used to be staunchly against playoff expansion in football.  I’ve softened a bit.  Who are these games for really?  They are for players, coaches, and fans.  Is there anything more enjoyable as a fan than having a big game to look forward to?  Anything more enjoyable for a player or coach than getting ready for a big game?  If we can allow a few more fan bases and teams to experience that without making a mockery of the game I don’t see the harm in that.
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ELA

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Re: Understanding the NCAA Tournament
« Reply #46 on: March 08, 2022, 07:04:18 PM »
Quote from: Kris60 on March 08, 2022, 06:40:58 PM
My two cents.  I’m ok with the current makeup of both college football and basketball postseasons.  I don’t want basketball to expand.  I’d be ok if football stayed at 4 or went to 8.

OAM made an analogy to the Boston Marathon.  There is something to be said for just having the opportunity to participate in a big event.  I know a lady who qualified to run in the BM.  It’s one of the highlights of her life.  Of course she didn’t stand a chance to win but just being able to compete was a huge accomplishment to her.  Same with small schools in the NCAA.

Also, as opposed to football, basketball lends itself to upsets a little more.  So, I’m ok with the little guys getting an invite.

I used to be staunchly against playoff expansion in football.  I’ve softened a bit.  Who are these games for really?  They are for players, coaches, and fans.  Is there anything more enjoyable as a fan than having a big game to look forward to?  Anything more enjoyable for a player or coach than getting ready for a big game?  If we can allow a few more fan bases and teams to experience that without making a mockery of the game I don’t see the harm in that.
No.  It's science, not entertainment.  If the best team isn't champion, what the hell are we doing here?
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OrangeAfroMan

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Re: Understanding the NCAA Tournament
« Reply #47 on: March 08, 2022, 07:57:27 PM »
Quote from: MaximumSam on March 08, 2022, 05:16:32 PM
The postseason is something after the season. It's main purpose is to provide entertainment and make money. Typically (though not always) results in some sort of playoff or something to crown a champion.
Alright, great, thank you.  Very honest answer.  So let's say I'm idiotic and optimistic about the competition of sports in general and want to believe your last part - a playoff is to crown a champion.

What is a champion?
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“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

OrangeAfroMan

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Re: Understanding the NCAA Tournament
« Reply #48 on: March 08, 2022, 07:59:39 PM »
Quote from: MrNubbz on March 08, 2022, 03:53:22 PM
You don't win debate's around here but you plunge head long into those - can't leave yourself open like that you should know that by now
Maybe i value the discussion and am not overly worried about "winning."
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“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

OrangeAfroMan

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Re: Understanding the NCAA Tournament
« Reply #49 on: March 08, 2022, 08:03:28 PM »
Quote from: ELA on March 08, 2022, 07:04:18 PM
No.  It's science, not entertainment.  If the best team isn't champion, what the hell are we doing here?
Maybe we should change the definition of "champion" to make way for fun factor and/or money for the wealthy.  
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“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

MaximumSam

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Re: Understanding the NCAA Tournament
« Reply #50 on: March 08, 2022, 08:03:29 PM »
Quote from: OrangeAfroMan on March 08, 2022, 07:57:27 PM
Alright, great, thank you.  Very honest answer.  So let's say I'm idiotic and optimistic about the competition of sports in general and want to believe your last part - a playoff is to crown a champion.

What is a champion?
The winner of the playoff or whatever other set of rules that determine who the champion is. 
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OrangeAfroMan

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Re: Understanding the NCAA Tournament
« Reply #51 on: March 08, 2022, 08:05:50 PM »
No, no, hold on.  What's the Webster's dictionary definition of the word 'champion'?
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“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

MaximumSam

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Re: Understanding the NCAA Tournament
« Reply #52 on: March 08, 2022, 08:10:09 PM »
Quote from: OrangeAfroMan on March 08, 2022, 08:05:50 PM
No, no, hold on.  What's the Webster's dictionary definition of the word 'champion'?
 "a winner of first prize or first place in competition"
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OrangeAfroMan

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Re: Understanding the NCAA Tournament
« Reply #53 on: March 08, 2022, 08:15:44 PM »
Quote from: MaximumSam on March 08, 2022, 08:10:09 PM
"a winner of first prize or first place in competition"
So it's not:
a winner of first prize or first place in entertainment value
or
a winner of first prize or first place in money made


Right?
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“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

MaximumSam

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Re: Understanding the NCAA Tournament
« Reply #54 on: March 08, 2022, 08:25:36 PM »
Quote from: OrangeAfroMan on March 08, 2022, 08:15:44 PM
So it's not:
a winner of first prize or first place in entertainment value
or
a winner of first prize or first place in money made


Right?
Sure. But you asked about the postseason, which exists to entertain and make money, because just using the regular season is boring.
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OrangeAfroMan

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Re: Understanding the NCAA Tournament
« Reply #55 on: March 08, 2022, 08:53:30 PM »
Quote from: Kris60 on March 08, 2022, 06:40:58 PM
OAM made an analogy to the Boston Marathon.  There is something to be said for just having the opportunity to participate in a big event.  I know a lady who qualified to run in the BM.  It’s one of the highlights of her life.  Of course she didn’t stand a chance to win but just being able to compete was a huge accomplishment to her.  Same with small schools in the NCAA.
My use of a marathon was a poor example, because it's not really a race.  It's a marathon.  You run it to see if you can, not to win it.  Probably fewer than 5-10 people out of thousands are running it to win it.

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“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier
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