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Topic: Top 150 HCs

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OrangeAfroMan

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Top 150 HCs
« on: December 10, 2019, 11:22:55 PM »
Our friends at ESPN have ranked the top 150 head coaches.  The top 25:
1. Bear Bryant - Alabama & others
2. Nick Saban - Alabama & others
3. Knute Rockne - ND
4. Tom Osborne - Nebraska
5. Eddie Robinson - Grambling
6. Bud Wilkinson - OU
7. Joe Paterno - Penn St
8. Bobby Bowden - FSU & others
9. Woody Hayes - OSU & others
10. Frank Leahy - ND, BC
11. Pop Warner - Carlisle & others
12. John McKay - USC
13. Barry Switzer - OU
14. Amos Alonzo Stagg - Chicago & others
15. Ara Parseghian - ND & others
16. John Gagliardi - St. John's (MN) & another
17. Walter Camp - Yale, Stanford
18. Fielding Yost - Michigan & others
19. Red Blaik - Army, Dartmouth
20. Bo Schembechler - Michigan, Miami (OH)
21. Bobby Dodd - GA Tech
22. LaVell Edwards - BYU
23. Lou Holtz - ND & others
24. Vince Dooley - Georgia
25. Tubby Raymond - Delaware
---------
Other notables:
26. Bob Devaney
27. Steve Spurrier
29. Bob Stoops
30. John Heisman
31. Dabo Swinney
33. John Robinson
35. Jim Tressel
36. Robert Neyland
37. Pete Carroll
38. Darrell K Royal
42. Fritz Crisler
45. Frank Beamer
46. Urban Meyer
49. Jimmy Johnson
50. Lloyd Carr
51. Duffy Daugherty
55. Bill Snyder
74. Gary Patterson
78. Lance Leipold
79. Don Nehlen
89. Brian Kelly
90. Barry Alvarez
91. Hayden Fry
93. Howard Schnellenberger
94. Phil Fulmer
97. John Cooper
107. Earle Bruce
110. Jimbo Fisher
112. Fisher DeBerry
136. Mark Richt
140. Les Miles
143. Earl Banks
144. Bill McCartney
146. Jack Mollenkopf
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“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

OrangeAfroMan

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Re: Top 150 HCs
« Reply #1 on: December 10, 2019, 11:27:13 PM »
I don't like that they lump in the Division-III guys with the big boys.  They're just doing such different jobs.  Wisconsin-Whitewater's longtime great coach should be near the top of that division's best HCs ever, not slipped into this one at #79 or whatever.


*Should there be that much space between Hayes and Bo?  I thought they were basically the same career-wise. 



Maybe I'm a homer, but I can't see the argument for Holtz over Spurrier.  Both won at multiple stops, and Spurrier's peak at UF was better than Holtz's at ND.



Neyland is way too low.  
There aren't 45 better HCs in history than Urban Meyer.  I know this list skews high-volume, and that's perfectly fine, but still. 



Snyder and Alvarez seem criminally low - I guess program-building (from scratch) isn't taken into account.
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“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

Brutus Buckeye

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Re: Top 150 HCs
« Reply #2 on: December 11, 2019, 12:11:30 AM »
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1919, 20, 21, 28, 29, 31, 34, 35, 36, 37, 42, 44
WWH: 1952, 54, 55, 57, 58, 60, 61, 62, 63, 65, 67, 68, 70, 72, 74, 75
1979, 81, 82, 84, 87, 94, 98
2001, 02, 04, 05, 06, 07, 08, 09, 10, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19

MarqHusker

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Re: Top 150 HCs
« Reply #3 on: December 11, 2019, 12:34:12 AM »
Not sure I'd have Bill Snyder that low.
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ELA

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Re: Top 150 HCs
« Reply #4 on: December 11, 2019, 12:56:42 AM »
Mark Richt and Les Miles?
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Brutus Buckeye

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Re: Top 150 HCs
« Reply #5 on: December 11, 2019, 06:18:09 AM »
Might be the dumbest list ever compiled.
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1919, 20, 21, 28, 29, 31, 34, 35, 36, 37, 42, 44
WWH: 1952, 54, 55, 57, 58, 60, 61, 62, 63, 65, 67, 68, 70, 72, 74, 75
1979, 81, 82, 84, 87, 94, 98
2001, 02, 04, 05, 06, 07, 08, 09, 10, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19

847badgerfan

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Re: Top 150 HCs
« Reply #6 on: December 11, 2019, 06:18:48 AM »
I looked at this yesterday. When I saw Urban that low, I just laughed.
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Brutus Buckeye

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Re: Top 150 HCs
« Reply #7 on: December 11, 2019, 06:56:57 AM »
Quote from: OrangeAfroMan on December 10, 2019, 11:27:13 PM


*Should there be that much space between Hayes and Bo?  I thought they were basically the same career-wise. 






National Championships: Woody 5, Bo 0

Rose Bowls: Woody 4-4, Bo 2-8

So yeah, "basically the same career-wise." lol

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1919, 20, 21, 28, 29, 31, 34, 35, 36, 37, 42, 44
WWH: 1952, 54, 55, 57, 58, 60, 61, 62, 63, 65, 67, 68, 70, 72, 74, 75
1979, 81, 82, 84, 87, 94, 98
2001, 02, 04, 05, 06, 07, 08, 09, 10, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19

Cincydawg

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Re: Top 150 HCs
« Reply #8 on: December 11, 2019, 07:34:43 AM »
As noted by many here, such "lists" and "rankings" of largely subjective topics get "clicks" for web sites (including this one).

The credibility of the list is only as good as you confer it.  I think 40 years back or so, a list in say Sports Illustrated might have had some weight to it because SI was just about the only sports magazine extant.  At least when I was young I viewed SI as some kind of "authority" on sports.  Today obviously we have a profusion of sites and whatevers to rank everything under the sun competing for eyeballs and ad money.

It's possible some junior intern was asked to compile this list, perhaps by rank ordering career wins and then juggling a bit, kind of like how some grad assistant prepared the coach's poll and runs it by him for a minute and he says fine.

Such lists are fun to criticize of course, especially when they have some blatant misjudgments.  At least they put Alabama in the top two spots, where they should have been in the playoff committee's ranking as well.
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OrangeAfroMan

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Re: Top 150 HCs
« Reply #9 on: December 11, 2019, 08:55:27 AM »
Yeah, it's just a bone for us to gnaw on.  So have at it.
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“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

medinabuckeye1

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Re: Top 150 HCs
« Reply #10 on: December 11, 2019, 09:26:36 AM »
Quote from: Brutus Buckeye on December 11, 2019, 06:56:57 AM
National Championships: Woody 5, Bo 0

Rose Bowls: Woody 4-4, Bo 2-8

So yeah, "basically the same career-wise." lol
I agree, but I do get where @OrangeAfroMan was coming from.  During the famed "Ten Year War" they were "about the same":
  • H2H:  Bo had a slight (5-4-1) advantage.  
  • Rose Bowls:  Woody was slightly better (1-4 vs 0-5) but frankly both were bad.  
  • NC's:  N/A
  • Overall:  Michigan was better at 96-15-3 (.855, #1 nationally) compared to Woody's 88-20-3 (.806, #7 nationally).  
  • AP Poll Appearances:  Michigan was better appearing in 144 of 147 polls (#1 nationally) compared to 137 for Ohio State (tied for #3 nationally)
  • AP top-10:  Michigan was slightly better appearing in 134 of 147 top-10's (#1 nationally) compared to 120 of 147 for Ohio State (#2 nationally).  
  • AP top-5:  Ohio State was slightly better appearing in 99 of 147 top-5's (#1 nationally) compared to 90 of 147 for Michigan (#3 nationally).  
  • AP top-2:  Ohio State was MUCH better appearing in 53 of 147 top-2's (#1 nationally) compared to 20 of 147 for Michigan.  
  • AP #1:  Ohio State was MUCH better appearing 41 times out of 147 at #1 (#1 nationally) compared to 12 of 147 for Michigan (#6 nationally).  


Where Woody REALLY cleans Bo's clock is when you consider their years outside of the "Ten Year War".  Woody coached at Ohio State for a total of 28 years from 1951-1978 while Bo coached at Michigan for a total of 21 years from 1969-1989.  Thus, Woody had 18 years and Bo had 11 years outside of the "Ten Year War".  In those "other" years:
  • vs Rival:  Woody went 12-6 (.667) against Michigan, Bo went 6-5 (.545) against Ohio State.  
  • Rose Bowls:  Woody went 3-0, Bo went 2-3.  
  • NC's:  Woody won three, Bo never got one.  
  • Overall:  Woody went 117-41-7 (.730, #3 nationally), Bo went 98-33-2 (.744, #8 nationally).  This one is interesting, you could argue it either way.  Bo's percentage was better but Woody's national ranking was better.  
  • AP Poll Appearances:  Woody had 132 appearances out of 218 polls (#4 nationally), Bo had 146  out of 176 (#3 nationally).  Woody's appearance percentage is significantly lower but that is NOT a fair comparison because the AP Poll was limited to 10 teams from 1962-1967 and 20 for the rest of Woody's tenure.  Bo had the benefit of there being 20 teams until his last year when there were 25.  
  • AP top-10:  Woody was in the top-10 in 103 of 218 polls (#5 nationally), Bo had 79 out of 176 (tied for #7 nationally).  
  • AP top-5:  Woody was in the top-5 in 59 of 218 polls (#6 nationally), Bo had 43 out of 176 (tied for #7 nationally).  
  • AP #1:  Woody was #1 in 13 of 218 polls (#7 nationally), Bo had 3 out of 176 (tied for #14 nationally).  

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SFBadger96

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Re: Top 150 HCs
« Reply #11 on: December 11, 2019, 11:54:36 AM »
Gives too much credit to the old guys, IMO.

Also, agree with the earlier posts: Urban Meyer and Alvarez too low (probably Snyder, too). While I think that Brian Kelly is probably a very good football coach, I don't see how he's close to what Alvarez did.

All that said, lots of really good coaches on this list, and pretty hard to differentiate what they all did. 
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MarqHusker

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Re: Top 150 HCs
« Reply #12 on: December 11, 2019, 12:10:19 PM »
Maybe Bo is being penalized for his unrelated work for the Tigers?  ;)
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ELA

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Re: Top 150 HCs
« Reply #13 on: December 11, 2019, 12:20:01 PM »
Quote from: MarqHusker on December 11, 2019, 12:10:19 PM
Maybe Bo is being penalized for his unrelated work for the Tigers?  ;)
Firing Ernie Harwell should be a disqualifying event
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