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Topic: 100 RBs who had lots of carries and didn't stink
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FearlessF · « **Reply #294 on:** April 03, 2020, 10:57:02 PM »

Sanders had one try - 11 games

bayareabadger · « **Reply #295 on:** April 03, 2020, 11:15:33 PM »

Quote from: OrangeAfroMan on April 03, 2020, 08:44:55 PM

I was thinking about Ron Dayne this morning.
The all-time leading rusher (I think?).
Being ranked 3rd by our own resident Badgers.
.
So...what should he have done differently? No, not even realistically, but more like what would had to have changed for him to be #1? Would you make him faster? Say we could make him faster, from a 4.55 guy to a 4.4 guy. So he's 5'10", 260 lbs, running a 4.4. Does he have the same career? Would he have rushed for more yards? Wouldn't his whole running style change? Wouldn't the play-calling change?
He did what he did using what he was, and it yielded the most rushing yards in a career. I don't think you change that. I don't think you slide it into 3rd place at his own program, right?
I'm reminded of a quote from Moneyball - I think some of you are trying to sell jeans. You've got super-productive guys who juke and run a 4.4 having great careers and then you have a short, fat guy who jogged and bounced off people who was a bit more productive....and most people side with the 4..4 guys. We're not selling jeans, here.

I think there's a factor that kind of blends the stats and the style. The best Dayne needed 30-plus carries. If you were in a game where you couldn't get him there, that caused some problems. His duds seem to stick out more, especially in two key losses to Michigan, and perhaps his consistent greatness meant some of his great games blended into the background a bit (his 200-yard Rose Bowls came in games of some uneven quality). He wasn't a guy when you were down 10 who could make it a 3-point game on one play from the 20.

There's also an odd fact that his most prolific run was the latter half of his first year just smashing tomato cans and solid Utah team. Also interesting that a 231-yard game, eighth best of his career, is forever remembered for a mess of fumbles in a 17-12 loss to Cincinnati.

Some if it just watching, you watch Gordon and Taylor and there's a little more well-rounded-ness to them. They could run with power, with wiggle and break a big one at any time. Dayne was a little more limited.

Now putting Taylor over him isn't so hard. Taylor's YPC was higher with a still very large workload. His had a few dud games against really talented OSU teams, one mess of fumbles against NW. Gordon is trickier. His senior year was better than any year Dayne had. His junior year, he had a split situation with a good player and was a terror.

I think the argument is those two were better backs, but Dayne had a better career, even if he was a more limited runner overall. The career stuff is cool, but these days it just feels like so much of that was staying around for a season no good backs stay for anymore.

bayareabadger · « **Reply #296 on:** April 03, 2020, 11:34:58 PM »

Quote from: OrangeAfroMan on April 02, 2020, 07:49:16 PM

Well that's what the simple math suggests, but we can't say that. More carries = more chances to get hurt, then you're back to Fearless' point. Plus, if Gordon has 3 years of high carries, he loses the season with 10 ypc...

It's a million different little things out of their control.
A huge inefficiency in football is a HC sticking with a good player, despite having a better one as a backup. Thomas should have been backing up Sanders at OKST. Ball should've been backing up Gordon. And if that's a leap too far, Gordon should have at least gotten way more carries when he was 3rd-string. If you have a guy averaging 10 ypc, it's irresponsible to not get him more carries. But then you have to consider knowledge of the offense and/or pass-blocking, etc.
.
It's just fun to think about.

I found this interesting on two fronts, and it kind of changed my perspective a bit.

You argue those folks should've backed up the other guys, but TBH, it's running the ball. You should probably split if you have two studs. In the Thomas-Sanders case, Thomas had 150 percent more carries and 0.7 more yards per carry. We often talk about more carries, less YPC, but Sanders more than tripled his carries and his YPC jumped from 5.7 to 7.6.

The Gordon thing is interesting in its own way because he was only averaging 10 YPC after the final two games. He was only at 8 before then, and even that was in limited carries. In the first 12 games, he only had three good ones with more than two carries. He helped the team break past UTEP, I think on jet sweeps when the box was loaded and the OL was a mess. He had mop up work after an early fumble in a blowout of Purdue and mop up in a bloodletting of IU.

Plus there's the fly sweep factor, which is to say he usually got the ball in favorable spots (also that offense was a weird mess because of some push/pull between OC and HC). So there was some modest coaching malpractice, though with the passing game and a mid-season OL coach change, I'm unsure 200 Gordon carries change all that much.

OrangeAfroMan · « **Reply #297 on:** April 04, 2020, 12:30:04 AM »

Quote from: bayareabadger on April 03, 2020, 11:34:58 PM

I think on jet sweeps when the box was loaded and the OL was a mess. He had mop up work after an early fumble in a blowout of Purdue and mop up in a bloodletting of IU.

Plus there's the fly sweep factor, which is to say he usually got the ball in favorable spots (also that offense was a weird mess because of some push/pull between OC and HC). So there was some modest coaching malpractice, though with the passing game and a mid-season OL coach change, I'm unsure 200 Gordon carries change all that much.

Yeah, that goes back to coaching then.
If jet sweeps and fly sweeps net so much yardage for the backup, why the hell aren't they doing it with the starter?
I think HCs are married to this idea of starter/backup, and it's antiquated and asinine. And if their play-calling is described as you've said, that HC doesn't know what he's doing.
No, I'm not saying I'd do a better job as HC of a major program, but I would be confident being the nerdy advisor, providing reports each week of how he could improve his offense with simple tweaks.
For instance, if you have a starting RB getting a bulk of the carries with a lower ypc, and his carries are more traditional play-calls, that's an easy fix.
A - you give the backup more carries, period
B - the more traditional carries the backup gets and the more dynamic, diverse carries the starter gets, the harder it will be for the defense to know which is in there to do which

Mdot21 · « **Reply #298 on:** April 04, 2020, 11:37:53 AM »

Quote from: FearlessF on April 03, 2020, 10:57:02 PM

Sanders had one try - 11 games

include the bowl game and the guy had 2,850 yards and 42 rushing td’s in 12 games.

That is an astonishing 237.5 yards rushing per game and 3.5 rushing TD’s a game.

No one will ever come close to averaging those kind of numbers.

Cincydawg · « **Reply #299 on:** April 04, 2020, 11:57:37 AM »

That is the best season by a running back ever, I think that cannot be disputed (especially considering his NFL career). Second best is probably from 4-5-6 possibilities.

847badgerfan · « **Reply #300 on:** April 04, 2020, 12:01:05 PM »

Quote from: bayareabadger on April 03, 2020, 11:15:33 PM

I think there's a factor that kind of blends the stats and the style. The best Dayne needed 30-plus carries. If you were in a game where you couldn't get him there, that caused some problems. His duds seem to stick out more, especially in two key losses to Michigan, and perhaps his consistent greatness meant some of his great games blended into the background a bit (his 200-yard Rose Bowls came in games of some uneven quality). He wasn't a guy when you were down 10 who could make it a 3-point game on one play from the 20.

There's also an odd fact that his most prolific run was the latter half of his first year just smashing tomato cans and solid Utah team. Also interesting that a 231-yard game, eighth best of his career, is forever remembered for a mess of fumbles in a 17-12 loss to Cincinnati.

Some if it just watching, you watch Gordon and Taylor and there's a little more well-rounded-ness to them. They could run with power, with wiggle and break a big one at any time. Dayne was a little more limited.

Now putting Taylor over him isn't so hard. Taylor's YPC was higher with a still very large workload. His had a few dud games against really talented OSU teams, one mess of fumbles against NW. Gordon is trickier. His senior year was better than any year Dayne had. His junior year, he had a split situation with a good player and was a terror.

I think the argument is those two were better backs, but Dayne had a better career, even if he was a more limited runner overall. The career stuff is cool, but these days it just feels like so much of that was staying around for a season no good backs stay for anymore.

I know it's a quibble, but man I wish Gordon had a senior year. He was behind Ball and White in 2012. Behind White in 2013. On his own in 2014.

He got a medical for 2011 but didn't use it for 2015. And just think for a minute about that backfield in 2012. Ball, White and Gordon. Holy crap, that's loaded. In 2013 you had White, Gordon and Clement. That's not too shabby either.

Mdot21 · « **Reply #301 on:** April 04, 2020, 12:06:22 PM »

Wisconsin doesn’t get enough credit for being in the RB U convo. They churn out OL’s and RB’s at an astonishing level. This isn’t a helmet program like Bama that can just cherry pick 5 STARZ from across the country. Pretty impressive what they are able to do.

MrNubbz · « **Reply #302 on:** April 04, 2020, 12:36:54 PM »

Quote from: Mdot21 on April 04, 2020, 11:37:53 AM

include the bowl game and the guy had 2,850 yards and 42 rushing td’s in 12 games.

That is an astonishing 237.5 yards rushing per game and 3.5 rushing TD’s a game.

No one will ever come close to averaging those kind of numbers.

Ya but that was against those wimp Sooner defenses

betarhoalphadelta · « **Reply #303 on:** April 04, 2020, 12:40:25 PM »

Quote from: MrNubbz on April 04, 2020, 12:36:54 PM

Ya but that was against those wimp Sooner defenses

So he was just twelving?

Err... I mean eighting?

OrangeAfroMan · « **Reply #304 on:** April 04, 2020, 12:47:51 PM »

eighting (ay-tee-ng) verb 1. an instance of two teams scoring 40+ points most often by way of option offenses and poor defenses; Boy, the 1988 Cowboys scored 42 points and lost, they were eighting vs the Huskers that year. 2. a precursor to twelving.

Cincydawg · « **Reply #305 on:** April 04, 2020, 01:26:34 PM »

Quote from: Mdot21 on April 04, 2020, 12:06:22 PM

Wisconsin doesn’t get enough credit for being in the RB U convo. They churn out OL’s and RB’s at an astonishing level. This isn’t a helmet program like Bama that can just cherry pick 5 STARZ from across the country. Pretty impressive what they are able to do.

I think they get plenty of credit, at least with anyone with a clue at all. I suspect some out there view them as "System RBs", which would be partly true and partly deceptive. It does help to have a great OL and run oriented offense (duh), but other teams that run a lot don't produce this kind of RB talent.

betarhoalphadelta · « **Reply #306 on:** April 04, 2020, 01:32:24 PM »

Quote from: Cincydawg on April 04, 2020, 01:26:34 PM

I think they get plenty of credit, at least with anyone with a clue at all. I suspect some out there view them as "System RBs", which would be partly true and partly deceptive. It does help to have a great OL and run oriented offense (duh), but other teams that run a lot don't produce this kind of RB talent.

I do sometimes fall into that group thinking that there are "system RBs" at Wisconsin... But that doesn't mean that they don't have talent.

Essentially I look at it this way:

A good RB looks great running behind the Wisconsin OL and in that scheme.
A great RB looks AMAZING running behind the Wisconsin OL and in that scheme.

Recruiting-wise, they're going to attract good-to-great RBs. The issue is that often we can't tell which is which based just on Wisconsin stats, because nearly any decent RB will produce well while at Wisconsin.

Cincydawg · « **Reply #307 on:** April 04, 2020, 01:36:05 PM »

Agreed, they have had some RBs that looked amazing with great YAC and speed and who would obviously be elite playing almost anywhere.

They should be in the "Running Back U" conversation, though I tend not to like the term very much. (I think it oversimplifies and is ESPN talk in a sense.)

Imagine two elite LBs, one playing for a team with 3-4 other near elite LBs, and one plays for a team with poor LBs.

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Topic: 100 RBs who had lots of carries and didn't stink

FearlessF

Re: Top 100 RBs of All-Time

bayareabadger

Re: Top 100 RBs of All-Time

bayareabadger

Re: Top 100 RBs of All-Time

OrangeAfroMan

Re: Top 100 RBs of All-Time

Mdot21

Re: Top 100 RBs of All-Time

Cincydawg

Re: Top 100 RBs of All-Time

847badgerfan

Re: Top 100 RBs of All-Time

Mdot21

Re: Top 100 RBs of All-Time

MrNubbz

Re: Top 100 RBs of All-Time

betarhoalphadelta

Re: Top 100 RBs of All-Time

OrangeAfroMan

Re: Top 100 RBs of All-Time

Cincydawg

Re: Top 100 RBs of All-Time

betarhoalphadelta

Re: Top 100 RBs of All-Time

Cincydawg

Re: Top 100 RBs of All-Time