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Topic: The Hypesman

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bayareabadger

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Re: The Hypesman
« Reply #14 on: December 08, 2018, 11:55:57 AM »
Fixed.
Oddly, this is mostly untrue in recent years.
You have to go back to 2012 to find a guy on a worst than 9-win team in the top five. Going to the top 7, you get Tevin coleman on 4-8 IU and Andre Williams on 7-5 BC.
The 2012 guy was Marquise Lee, whose numbers were pretty insane,  I don’t remember if he actually got invited to New York.  Then you have to go back to 2010 when Denard was sixth, I think, owing to that September Heisman the team couldn’t finish.

Ticking back 
Gerhart on a 8-4 team 2nd
Shon Green on 8-4 6th
Pat White on 8-4 WVU 7th
McFadden was on a 8-4 team and was 2nd
Dennis Dixon was on a 8-4 team, but obviously had extenuation circumstances 

If anything, guys who overcome low wins tend to be on non-helmet teams. 
« Last Edit: December 08, 2018, 12:26:11 PM by bayareabadger »

bayareabadger

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Re: The Hypesman
« Reply #15 on: December 08, 2018, 11:58:13 AM »
I don't recall QB rating ever being much of a factor in Heisman races
Is there a statistical number that you feel has historically weighed more heavily?

Honestbuckeye

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Re: The Hypesman
« Reply #16 on: December 08, 2018, 12:25:02 PM »
Setting aside Big 12 silliness, I think the answer has to do with the way narratives can harden.
The Heisman is a storybook award, for bad or for good. It goes to someone with a story. Ohio State's is complicated.
OSU spent most of the year as a disappointment. It's biggest failure was on a big stage against a so-so team, and the enduring image of Haskins was throwing again and again. He became the gunslinger doing what he could with a bad defense and not much running support, but it remained in the context of disappointment. The big non-conference win evaporated. And there were stats, but they always had that looming over them. Sadly, that doesn't get a guy a Heisman.  
And in that, we probably underrated what OSU and him were doing. I had a friend who is an ardent OSU fan, one who is often levelheaded, and when the Michigan game came around, he said something like "If Michigan can't beat, THIS Ohio State team ..."
Of course THIS Ohio State team was 10-1, No. 8 in S&P. But they couldn't shake that feeling, even on here. As such, what should've been a big win in The Game became more of a referendum on Michigan. The BTTG didn't help, with a team destined to get loss No. 5.
Basically everyone, including many of us, treated OSU like a disappointment right up to the end, and by the time that could shift, there wasn't enough runway to fully throw things back into a positive gear. If something like the Michigan game happens 2-3 weeks earlier, I'd bet there's a better chance Haskins is contending and maybe there's a more real discussion about a playoff spot.
(It also brings into relief the situation in 2014, where OSU got the defining win at the start of November and benefitted from the Big 12's split/lack of a title game)
Well said, and correct IMHO.  Haskins season would be a runaway Heisman most years.
Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please.
-Mark Twain

847badgerfan

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Re: The Hypesman
« Reply #17 on: December 08, 2018, 12:38:06 PM »
Oddly, this is mostly untrue in recent years.
You have to go back to 2012 to find a guy on a worst than 9-win team in the top five. Going to the top 7, you get Tevin coleman on 4-8 IU and Andre Williams on 7-5 BC.
The 2012 guy was Marquise Lee, whose numbers were pretty insane,  I don’t remember if he actually got invited to New York.  Then you have to go back to 2010 when Denard was sixth, I think, owing to that September Heisman the team couldn’t finish.

Ticking back
Gerhart on a 8-4 team 2nd
Shon Green on 8-4 6th
Pat White on 8-4 WVU 7th
McFadden was on a 8-4 team and was 2nd
Dennis Dixon was on a 8-4 team, but obviously had extenuation circumstances

If anything, guys who overcome low wins tend to be on non-helmet teams.
You did a lot of work to counter my dig at Notre Dame...
U RAH RAH! WIS CON SIN!

OrangeAfroMan

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Re: The Hypesman
« Reply #18 on: December 08, 2018, 10:01:27 PM »
I don't recall QB rating ever being much of a factor in Heisman races
It's not necessarily QB rating being a deciding factor, but that QB rating is the measure of the aggregate statistical "reasons" a voter would cast his ballot for Murray or Tua over Haskins.
Haskins has the volume.  Great.  More yds, TDs,...but on a lot more attempts.  
Haskins had the most yards on the 2nd-most attempts.  Murray was 3rd in yards and not even in the top 20 in completions.  Haskins first in TDs?  Murray was 2nd, on 150 fewer attempts.  Murray was more efficient, nearly matching Haskins' volume stats in far fewer opportunities.  
And all of it ignores the vast advantage Murray had running the ball, both in yards and TDs.  He was even 7th in the country in yards per carry.  
Haskins' season would have won him a Heisman in the 90s and even the 2000s.  But in the past 5 years, a season like his has become more and more common.  He wouldn't have beaten Mayfield last year.  Bu Rudolph had a similar season.  Goff did.  Mahomes did.  Watson did.  Passing stats have gone astronomical lately.
It's easy to be blinded by his "arm talent" and potential NFL career, but alas, the Heisman is a collegiate award.  So Mr. 5'9" baseball player Murray gets the trophy...because he earned it.
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

Cincydawg

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Re: The Hypesman
« Reply #19 on: December 09, 2018, 07:27:17 AM »
The voters can base their vote on anything, right?  "Most outstanding player" is qualitative.

It means flashiest offensive back with 3-4 highlights and/or massive statistics on a team that excelled.




MaximumSam

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Re: The Hypesman
« Reply #20 on: December 09, 2018, 08:10:33 AM »
It's not necessarily QB rating being a deciding factor, but that QB rating is the measure of the aggregate statistical "reasons" a voter would cast his ballot for Murray or Tua over Haskins.
Haskins has the volume.  Great.  More yds, TDs,...but on a lot more attempts.  
Haskins had the most yards on the 2nd-most attempts.  Murray was 3rd in yards and not even in the top 20 in completions.  Haskins first in TDs?  Murray was 2nd, on 150 fewer attempts.  Murray was more efficient, nearly matching Haskins' volume stats in far fewer opportunities.  
And all of it ignores the vast advantage Murray had running the ball, both in yards and TDs.  He was even 7th in the country in yards per carry.  
Haskins' season would have won him a Heisman in the 90s and even the 2000s.  But in the past 5 years, a season like his has become more and more common.  He wouldn't have beaten Mayfield last year.  Bu Rudolph had a similar season.  Goff did.  Mahomes did.  Watson did.  Passing stats have gone astronomical lately.
It's easy to be blinded by his "arm talent" and potential NFL career, but alas, the Heisman is a collegiate award.  So Mr. 5'9" baseball player Murray gets the trophy...because he earned it.
Yeah, sure I don't mind him winning, he is very deserving.  I just thought the coverage had looked weird, where articles and coverage didn't even mention that Haskins was present.  Usually there is at least some lip service paid to all the candidates invited, especially when he might have had an even better season.  Judging from Twitter a lot of non-Buckeye types noticed it too.

OrangeAfroMan

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Re: The Hypesman
« Reply #21 on: December 09, 2018, 11:56:16 AM »
He was a distant third, and was probably only there because they haven't had only 2 players invited as long as I've been watching.  Kinda lame for him, but maybe he enjoyed himself.
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

Cincydawg

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Re: The Hypesman
« Reply #22 on: December 09, 2018, 01:43:40 PM »
I wonder now how often a "classic" drop back QB will win the Heisman.  He would if there is little competition and someone puts up huge numbers, but they tend not to be "dramatic" in highlights, just some dude standing back there threading needles with bolts.


bayareabadger

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Re: The Hypesman
« Reply #23 on: December 09, 2018, 02:43:24 PM »
I wonder now how often a "classic" drop back QB will win the Heisman.  He would if there is little competition and someone puts up huge numbers, but they tend not to be "dramatic" in highlights, just some dude standing back there threading needles with bolts.


If he’s on a very good team, could still happen. 
The bigger question is, how many of those are there, and how many are overshadowed by their running games?

OrangeAfroMan

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Re: The Hypesman
« Reply #24 on: December 09, 2018, 03:08:49 PM »
I wonder if you could make a "legit" Heisman list (variety of positions, team successes, etc) by just looking at the top 10 of voting each year, and awarding it to the most obscure guy on it.  Like giving it to the only DL in the top 10 or the only LB....and if there are two obscure position players (or none), then you award it to the guy on the more obscure team - the non-helmets.  


That might make a more genuine, accurate annual list of the "most oustanding" player each year, no?
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

Mdot21

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Re: The Hypesman
« Reply #25 on: December 09, 2018, 05:22:58 PM »
I wonder now how often a "classic" drop back QB will win the Heisman.  He would if there is little competition and someone puts up huge numbers, but they tend not to be "dramatic" in highlights, just some dude standing back there threading needles with bolts.
if Andrew Luck and Dwayne Haskins didn't win it, then I don't see a drop back passer winning it any time soon.
Think you'll need to be a Tebow, Newton, Murray, or VY style QB to win it from now on. Most of the best teams these days don't run a purely pro-style type of offense and pass game. You can probably count on one hand the teams that run offenses like that.

OrangeAfroMan

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Re: The Hypesman
« Reply #26 on: December 09, 2018, 09:49:39 PM »
Well it's a matter of 2 players with  a ton of passing yards and TDs and a great passer rating....but one of them also ran for 800 yards and 10+ TDs.  



It becomes an obvious choice, logically.  
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

OrangeAfroMan

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Re: The Hypesman
« Reply #27 on: December 09, 2018, 09:54:22 PM »
You can trace it back to Tebow or credit Meyer.  Instead of treating the QB like a Faberge egg sitting on the mantle, not to be touched or breathed-on too harshly, you utilize him as a ball-carrier, using your ball-carrier as an extra blocker.  Coaches have always wanted their QB to be big and strong as a defense mechanism from being hurt by traditional methods (getting sacked).  Meyer said f- that, if he's big and strong, let's USE that proactively, as an offensive mechanism.
So Tebow did it and was okay (he was hurt that one time on a pass play), Newton did it and was okay (and was Tebow's backup initially), then even little Johnny Football did it and was okay.  So as all good ideas do, it caught on.



There's nothing wrong with handing the ball off to a RB.  But if a player (QB) takes on more of the workload, it should be taken into account, and he has, will, and should be credited for doing so.




These offenses that didn't have a FB, but recognized that in certain situations, you are best served to have a FB, you use the biggest guy in your backfield, which is now often the QB.  There were Michael Vick and Pat White types, trying to take advantage of their speed, but those were mostly (if I recall correctly) the traditional draws and scrambles, with a few option plays thrown in.  
« Last Edit: December 09, 2018, 10:19:20 PM by OrangeAfroMan »
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

 

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