header pic

Perhaps the BEST B1G Forum anywhere, here at College Football Fan Site, CFB51!!!

The 'Old' CFN/Scout Crowd- Enjoy Civil discussion, game analytics, in depth player and coaching 'takes' and discussing topics surrounding the game. You can even have your own free board, all you have to do is ask!!!

Anyone is welcomed and encouraged to join our FREE site and to take part in our community- a community with you- the user, the fan, -and the person- will be protected from intrusive actions and with a clean place to interact.


« previous next »
Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 6   Go Down
Author

Topic: The Great Wall of Dallas

 (Read 12639 times)

OrangeAfroMan

  • Stats Porn
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 21773
  • Liked:
The Great Wall of Dallas
« on: April 07, 2019, 10:58:02 PM »
Just going to put this here:
1992-1995 Dallas Cowboys offensive line:
T - Mark Tuinei.........undrafted (Hawai'i)
G - Nate Newton.......undrafted (Florida A&M)
C - Mark Stepnoski.....3rd round (Pitt, as an All-American)
G - Kevin Gogan........8th round (Washington)
T - Erik Williams........3rd round (Central St (NAIA))



These guys weren't exactly world-beaters until they had Aikman-Smith-Irvin around them, were they?  Only one legit, valued prospect (Stepnoski).  Newton was a journeyman USFL fatty.  Tuinei was arrested for assault in college.  Williams had to go NAIA because of grades.  Gogan moved all around the line, not carving out a spot for himself, really, ever.  



These guys get a lot of credit, and much of it is probably warranted, but I think the Herschel Walker trade warrants much of it as well.  Isn't it possible that the Dallas dynasty was mainly due to great skill position talent and a great defense as much as it was an all-time great OL?  What if it was merely a good OL?  Crazy talk?
Logged
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

Brutus Buckeye

  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 12076
  • Liked:
Re: The Great Wall of Dallas
« Reply #1 on: April 08, 2019, 12:04:40 AM »
The Central St Marauders in Ohio?
Logged

Mdot21

  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 16786
  • Liked:
Re: The Great Wall of Dallas
« Reply #2 on: April 08, 2019, 12:40:14 AM »
no one ever called them that- The Great Wall of Dallas back in the 90s when they were actually playing. I have no idea where the NFL Network even got that from. Just pulled it out of a hat maybe. Or one of the producers of that football life shows ass maybe.

Doesn't really matter where someone was drafted, matters how they played really. I think what kind of made that group special is that those guys had ridiculous size for that era for the most part- aside from Stepnoski who was smallish. The rest of them were enormous and kind of really started the trend of seeing people that big up front.

Stepnoski should probably be in the HOF some day, he was an elite center for that or any era really. I think he was a 4x All-Pro and 6x Pro Bowler. Regardless, he was arguably the very best center in the game for a good 5 year stretch.

Erik Williams 100% absolutely would've been a HOF LOCK had he never gotten into that crazy car accident. It was a miracle he lived let alone went on to play NFL football again. He was just never the same after that accident.

Larry Allen by the way was a starter for the Cowboys most of 1994 and an all of 1995- and he's 1st ballot HOF'er and that is the baddest dude to EVER play any OL position and the best guard to ever play the game if you ask me.

That's 3 HOF caliber OL's right there.
Logged

OrangeAfroMan

  • Stats Porn
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 21773
  • Liked:
Re: The Great Wall of Dallas
« Reply #3 on: April 08, 2019, 08:35:18 AM »
Mkay, but only 1 is in the HOF, as as soon as Lomas Brown is inducted in the next few years, Sanders will have had as many HOF OL blocking for him as Smith did.
Logged
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

OrangeAfroMan

  • Stats Porn
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 21773
  • Liked:
Re: The Great Wall of Dallas
« Reply #4 on: April 08, 2019, 08:36:05 AM »
Quote from: Brutus Buckeye on April 08, 2019, 12:04:40 AM
The Central St Marauders in Ohio?
Yes, in Ohio.
Logged
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

Mdot21

  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 16786
  • Liked:
Re: The Great Wall of Dallas
« Reply #5 on: April 08, 2019, 10:09:51 AM »
Quote from: OrangeAfroMan on April 08, 2019, 08:35:18 AM
Mkay, but only 1 is in the HOF, as as soon as Lomas Brown is inducted in the next few years, Sanders will have had as many HOF OL blocking for him as Smith did.
Ummmm, what? I doubt Lomas Brown will ever be inducted into the HOF. Hall of Very Good. Hall of Fame? Nah. Nate Newton made a bunch of Pro Bowls like Lomas Brown too, and not sure he's a HOFer either. Kevin Glover was the Lions best OL during that era. Brown had the bigger name recognition as he was a 1st round pick and played the premier OL position in LT, but Glover was the better offensive linemen. Regardless, an OL is more than just 1 or 2 guys. And Glover at his best wasn't as good as Stepnoski at his best. And Brown at his best wasn't as good as Erik Williams or Larry Allen at their best. Erik Williams would've went down in history as one of the GOAT OLs like Larry Allen did if not for the car accident which just destroyed his body. He was never the same. He used to be the baddest OT in the NFL- he would routinely whip Charles Haley's ass in practice and then go whip Reggie White's and Bruce Smith's asses in the playoff. There were games he had against Reggie White where he just flat out bullied him. Reggie...White.
You are severely under-estimating the greatness of Erik Williams.
Logged

FearlessF

  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 45508
  • Liked:
Re: The Great Wall of Dallas
« Reply #6 on: April 08, 2019, 01:46:35 PM »
Quote from: OrangeAfroMan on April 07, 2019, 10:58:02 PM
Just going to put this here:



These guys weren't exactly world-beaters until they had Aikman-Smith-Irvin around them, were they?  Only one legit, valued prospect (Stepnoski).  Newton was a journeyman USFL fatty.  Tuinei was arrested for assault in college.  Williams had to go NAIA because of grades.  Gogan moved all around the line, not carving out a spot for himself, really, ever.  
why not put this in the Draft thread?
An O-lineman that was arrested in College?  probably a indicator of greatness.  Bad grades in college or high school??? Big uglies don't need much education to line up and pile drive folks.
Yes, the Hershel Walker trade was what built the dynasty, along with Jimmy Johnson's need for speed.
Aikman wasn't the greatest QB in history, Irvin wasn't the greatest receiver, and Emmitt in my opinion wasn't the greatest running back, but together with moose Johnson and the O-line, plus the great defense, put the Cowboys on top for a long time
Logged
"Courage; Generosity; Fairness; Honor; In these are the true awards of manly sport."

847badgerfan

  • Administrator
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 31095
  • Liked:
Re: The Great Wall of Dallas
« Reply #7 on: April 08, 2019, 02:25:59 PM »
Agendas. 
Logged
U RAH RAH! WIS CON SIN!

FearlessF

  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 45508
  • Liked:
Re: The Great Wall of Dallas
« Reply #8 on: April 08, 2019, 02:53:36 PM »
just be thankful that you're Da Bear's fan

I would suppose the Bear's fans dislike the Vikings more than another team from out of the Black & Blue division.

Is this true?

I would also suppose that Da Bears have a bigger problem with Packers than Vikings.
Logged
"Courage; Generosity; Fairness; Honor; In these are the true awards of manly sport."

OrangeAfroMan

  • Stats Porn
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 21773
  • Liked:
Re: The Great Wall of Dallas
« Reply #9 on: April 08, 2019, 03:30:18 PM »
I actually thought I'd find the opposite - that the DAL OL would be highly-drafted guys who fulfilled expectations.  What I found was the opposite of that and I thought I'd share.  


Silly me.
Logged
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

847badgerfan

  • Administrator
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 31095
  • Liked:
Re: The Great Wall of Dallas
« Reply #10 on: April 08, 2019, 03:45:07 PM »
Draft position doesn't always dictate greatness. Dallas' line back then was sick.


I don't watch the NFL anymore so I don't really care, but I get he feeling that this thread stems from the discussion on great all-time RB's (yes, I read that).


And, despite that I no longer watch, the Packers still suck.
Logged
U RAH RAH! WIS CON SIN!

betarhoalphadelta

  • Global Moderator
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 14513
  • Liked:
Re: The Great Wall of Dallas
« Reply #11 on: April 08, 2019, 03:58:34 PM »
Quote from: OrangeAfroMan on April 08, 2019, 03:30:18 PM
I actually thought I'd find the opposite - that the DAL OL would be highly-drafted guys who fulfilled expectations.  What I found was the opposite of that and I thought I'd share.  


Silly me.
Well, I think given a little bit of the context of the previous discussion, it was an important contribution.
A few of us were arguing that the way to build a team is to start with the lines and build out from there.
In this case, that obviously wasn't the strategy. I think the DAL OL was probably VERY good, but it certainly wasn't a group assembled from top draft picks who were expected to do what they did.
But when you look at them:
  • T - Mark Tuinei - Pro bowl 94/95
  • G - Nate Newton - All-pro 94/95, pro bowl 92/93/94/95/96/98 
  • C - Mark Stepnoski - Pro bowl 92/93/94
  • G - Kevin Gogan (Only until 93) - Nothing with Dallas, but 2nd-team All-pro 98 (with SF), Pro bowl 94 (with Oakland), 95/96 (with SF) - So he was pretty good.
  • G - Larry Allen (94 onward) - All-pro 96/97/98/99/00/01, pro-bowl 95/96/97/98/99/00/01/03/04/05
  • T - Erik Williams - All-pro 93/96, pro bowl 93/96/97/99
So they weren't a bunch of no-talent hacks who were useless without Aikman/Smith/Irvin. They just didn't come from exactly the blue-chip pedigree you might have expected.
IMHO, it does help to suggest that having a great OL is a big part of having a great football team, which is what I was saying--that a great OL make the skill position guys around them MUCH better, and thus it's probably MORE important than the skill positions that everyone pays attention to. 
Now, if you brought them up with the idea of suggesting that it was all about Aikman/Smith/Irvin, or as an indication that the Dallas OL was really not ALL that much better than the Detroit OL that Sanders ran behind? No, I don't think you've proven a point there. 
Because when you look at Detroit's OL, only two players in that era had any of the same accolades:
  • Kevin Glover: Pro bowl 95/96/97
  • Lomas Brown: All-pro 95, pro bowl 90/91/92/93/94/95

Only two players, and they only had their accolades in one single overlapping year, 95. 

Dallas, on the other hand, had at least one all-pro every year from 93-01, and multiple pro bowlers every year. You talked about them like they were a bunch of scrubs without the skill guys. 
Logged

847badgerfan

  • Administrator
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 31095
  • Liked:
Re: The Great Wall of Dallas
« Reply #12 on: April 08, 2019, 04:36:37 PM »
Man.. I was thinking about the lines (and QB's and WR) Walter Payton had to work with in his first 6-7 years. Makes Sanders' Detroit lines look like crew of perennial all-pros.
Logged
U RAH RAH! WIS CON SIN!

MrNubbz

  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 19973
  • Liked:
Re: The Great Wall of Dallas
« Reply #13 on: April 08, 2019, 06:25:09 PM »
Quote from: 847badgerfan on April 08, 2019, 04:36:37 PM
Man.. I was thinking about the lines (and QB's and WR) Walter Payton had to work with in his first 6-7 years. Makes Sanders' Detroit lines look like crew of perennial all-pros.
Yup Sweetness did a lot by himself,he use to run up some pretty steep hills everyday.Worked hard
Logged
"Let us endeavor so to live - that when we come to die even the undertaker will be sorry." - Mark Twain
Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 6   Go Up
« previous next »
 
Support the Site!
Purchase of every item listed here DIRECTLY supports the site.
Custom Medallion

Tennessee Country Medallion