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Topic: The Great Wall of Dallas

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Entropy

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Re: The Great Wall of Dallas
« Reply #42 on: April 10, 2019, 09:56:07 AM »
this thread screams desperation...
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OrangeAfroMan

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Re: The Great Wall of Dallas
« Reply #43 on: April 10, 2019, 01:27:23 PM »
Or it's evolved into something larger, but no one wants to participate in questioning the general consensus.  Lame.
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betarhoalphadelta

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Re: The Great Wall of Dallas
« Reply #44 on: April 10, 2019, 02:23:34 PM »
Quote from: OrangeAfroMan on April 10, 2019, 01:27:23 PM
Or it's evolved into something larger, but no one wants to participate in questioning the general consensus.  Lame.
Well, I think we're all participating, but to some extent it's not the most easy thing to answer.
I agree with your point that great lines make skill positions look better and great skill position players make the line look better.
It's a team game.
  • A QB who can quickly read defensive intent and can adjust a playcall at the line to get his offense in a better call will achieve more offensive success, reducing sacks and improving run performance, making his OL look better. Or one who is mobile enough in the pocket and scrambling to extend plays, avoid sacks, and occasionally run for yardage makes his OL look statistically better.
  • An RB who can make people miss and turn nothing into something makes his OL look better.
  • A WR or multiple WR who are able to get open reduce coverage sacks by giving the QB someone to throw to. WR who can block downfield help the RB and the OL stats look better if they can extend RB runs.
  • A great OL also makes all those skill position players look better. They open holes for the RB. They block and give the QB more time to make his reads and go through progressions. That gives the WRs more time to get open.
Obviously my prior belief is that the OL is absolutely key. I don't watch as much NFL, but it's one of those things we see every year at Wisconsin. They produce "star" RB after star RB, every year. Then when those players go to the NFL, some are successful while others are complete busts. But they all produce in the Wisconsin system.
I'm open to being convinced otherwise. BUT, your original post in this thread was way off base. Here's what you said:

Quote
These guys weren't exactly world-beaters until they had Aikman-Smith-Irvin around them, were they?  Only one legit, valued prospect (Stepnoski).  Newton was a journeyman USFL fatty.  Tuinei was arrested for assault in college.  Williams had to go NAIA because of grades.  Gogan moved all around the line, not carving out a spot for himself, really, ever.  
So you complain about two guys who had off-the-field issues [and perhaps their draft stock suffered for that]. You call a two-time all-pro a "journeyman USFL fatty". You impugn one based on him moving all around the line, instead of perhaps crediting him for his versatility and ability to perform at multiple positions.
And I highlighted that Gogan never had an all-pro or pro bowl season with Dallas, but when he moved on, he did. It's not like those other teams he played for had Aikman/Smith/Irvin, right? He played from 1987 to 2000. That's a hell of a career for a guy who you act like was just some scrub who couldn't hold down any position on the line.
So if you want to question the general consensus, that's fine. But you have to come with actual stats if you want to change opinions.
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Mdot21

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Re: The Great Wall of Dallas
« Reply #45 on: April 10, 2019, 03:06:42 PM »
Quote from: bwarbiany on April 10, 2019, 02:23:34 PM
Well, I think we're all participating, but to some extent it's not the most easy thing to answer.
I agree with your point that great lines make skill positions look better and great skill position players make the line look better.
It's a team game.
  • A QB who can quickly read defensive intent and can adjust a playcall at the line to get his offense in a better call will achieve more offensive success, reducing sacks and improving run performance, making his OL look better. Or one who is mobile enough in the pocket and scrambling to extend plays, avoid sacks, and occasionally run for yardage makes his OL look statistically better.
  • An RB who can make people miss and turn nothing into something makes his OL look better.
  • A WR or multiple WR who are able to get open reduce coverage sacks by giving the QB someone to throw to. WR who can block downfield help the RB and the OL stats look better if they can extend RB runs.
  • A great OL also makes all those skill position players look better. They open holes for the RB. They block and give the QB more time to make his reads and go through progressions. That gives the WRs more time to get open.
Obviously my prior belief is that the OL is absolutely key. I don't watch as much NFL, but it's one of those things we see every year at Wisconsin. They produce "star" RB after star RB, every year. Then when those players go to the NFL, some are successful while others are complete busts. But they all produce in the Wisconsin system.
I'm open to being convinced otherwise. BUT, your original post in this thread was way off base. Here's what you said:
So you complain about two guys who had off-the-field issues [and perhaps their draft stock suffered for that]. You call a two-time all-pro a "journeyman USFL fatty". You impugn one based on him moving all around the line, instead of perhaps crediting him for his versatility and ability to perform at multiple positions.
And I highlighted that Gogan never had an all-pro or pro bowl season with Dallas, but when he moved on, he did. It's not like those other teams he played for had Aikman/Smith/Irvin, right? He played from 1987 to 2000. That's a hell of a career for a guy who you act like was just some scrub who couldn't hold down any position on the line.
So if you want to question the general consensus, that's fine. But you have to come with actual stats if you want to change opinions.
Great post. 
I’d just like to add- Larry Allen is the best guard to ever play football. 
Erik Williams was on that same track to go down as perhaps the greatest RT to ever play football. His injuries sustained in a nearly fatal car crash- that honestly probably should’ve killed him-the accident was that bad- turned him from an amazing out of this world all-time great player to a still very good, above average starter. Shows you just how great he really was to come back from that accident and still be able to play at a reasonably high level. He’d g
Emmitt was great. No doubt about it. But so was most of that entire team. Offense and defense. They were ridiculously stacked.
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FearlessF

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Re: The Great Wall of Dallas
« Reply #46 on: April 10, 2019, 03:11:35 PM »
So, if I go with the category of greatest "Career" NFL running backs.  Emmitt is easily in my top 5 and perhaps #1 all-time

Regardless of his O-line or offensive system

Obviously, a great back such as Sayers had his career cut short and couldn't compare, along with possibly Sanders who retired just past his prime.

The list of single season rushing yards
1 Eric Dickerson+ (24) 2,105 1984 RAM
2 Adrian Peterson (27) 2,097 2012 MIN
3 Jamal Lewis (24) 2,066 2003 BAL
4 Barry Sanders+ (29) 2,053 1997 DET
5 Terrell Davis+ (25) 2,008 1998 DEN
6 Chris Johnson (23) 2,006 2009 TEN
7 O.J. Simpson+ (26) 2,003 1973 BUF
8 Earl Campbell+ (25) 1,934 1980 HOU
9 Ahman Green (26) 1,883 2003 GNB
        Barry Sanders+ (26) 1,883 1994 DET
11 Shaun Alexander (28) 1,880 2005 SEA
12 Jim Brown+ (27) 1,863 1963 CLE
13 Tiki Barber (30) 1,860 2005 NYG
14 Ricky Williams (25) 1,853 2002 MIA
15 Walter Payton+ (23) 1,852 1977 CHI
16 Jamal Anderson (25) 1,846 1998 ATL
17 DeMarco Murray (26) 1,845 2014 DAL
18 Eric Dickerson+ (26) 1,821 1986 RAM
19 O.J. Simpson+ (28) 1,817 1975 BUF
20 LaDainian Tomlinson+ (27) 1,815 2006 SDG
21 Eric Dickerson+ (23) 1,808 1983 RAM
22 Larry Johnson (26) 1,789 2006 KAN
23 Emmitt Smith+ (26) 1,773 1995 DAL
24 Adrian Peterson (23) 1,760 2008 MIN
25 Marcus Allen+ (25) 1,759 1985 RAI
26 Terrell Davis+ (24) 1,750 1997 DEN
        Larry Johnson (25) 1,750 2005 KAN
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OrangeAfroMan

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Re: The Great Wall of Dallas
« Reply #47 on: April 11, 2019, 01:22:14 AM »
Quote from: FearlessF on April 09, 2019, 03:51:35 PM
pre-Allen, post-Allen, the great wall of Dallas graded very well.
In what ways?
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OrangeAfroMan

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Re: The Great Wall of Dallas
« Reply #48 on: April 11, 2019, 01:24:53 AM »
Quote from: Mdot21 on April 10, 2019, 03:06:42 PM
Great post.
I’d just like to add- Larry Allen is the best guard to ever play football.
Erik Williams was on that same track to go down as perhaps the greatest RT to ever play football. 
You're really good at proclaiming things.  Not so great at supporting them with evidence.  Repeatedly making claims doesn't make them more true.
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OrangeAfroMan

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Re: The Great Wall of Dallas
« Reply #49 on: April 11, 2019, 01:29:52 AM »
Quote from: bwarbiany on April 10, 2019, 02:23:34 PM
Well, I think we're all participating, but to some extent it's not the most easy thing to answer.
I agree with your point that great lines make skill positions look better and great skill position players make the line look better.
It's a team game.
  • A QB who can quickly read defensive intent and can adjust a playcall at the line to get his offense in a better call will achieve more offensive success, reducing sacks and improving run performance, making his OL look better. Or one who is mobile enough in the pocket and scrambling to extend plays, avoid sacks, and occasionally run for yardage makes his OL look statistically better.
  • An RB who can make people miss and turn nothing into something makes his OL look better.
  • A WR or multiple WR who are able to get open reduce coverage sacks by giving the QB someone to throw to. WR who can block downfield help the RB and the OL stats look better if they can extend RB runs.
  • A great OL also makes all those skill position players look better. They open holes for the RB. They block and give the QB more time to make his reads and go through progressions. That gives the WRs more time to get open.
Obviously my prior belief is that the OL is absolutely key. I don't watch as much NFL, but it's one of those things we see every year at Wisconsin. They produce "star" RB after star RB, every year. Then when those players go to the NFL, some are successful while others are complete busts. But they all produce in the Wisconsin system.
I'm open to being convinced otherwise. BUT, your original post in this thread was way off base. Here's what you said:
So you complain about two guys who had off-the-field issues [and perhaps their draft stock suffered for that]. You call a two-time all-pro a "journeyman USFL fatty". You impugn one based on him moving all around the line, instead of perhaps crediting him for his versatility and ability to perform at multiple positions.
And I highlighted that Gogan never had an all-pro or pro bowl season with Dallas, but when he moved on, he did. It's not like those other teams he played for had Aikman/Smith/Irvin, right? He played from 1987 to 2000. That's a hell of a career for a guy who you act like was just some scrub who couldn't hold down any position on the line.
So if you want to question the general consensus, that's fine. But you have to come with actual stats if you want to change opinions.
Of course I do, but we're early in the discussion.
Maybe DAL had a great OL coach, who knows?  I haven't jumped in enough yet.
My initial idea to start to rank OLs by statistics would be ypc on running plays combined with some sort of sacks allowed %, but then I ran into a huge roadblock.  I stated looking in the 80s, and one certain QB's team always allowed very few sacks - usually in the teens, but one year it was single digits!  And this was by a very stationary QB.  Another team led the league year after year in sacks allowed - in fact, one year, they allowed over 70!  And this was with maybe the most mobile QB ever, at least pre-Vick.
So it seems sacks allowed is highly connected to who the QB is, much more so than who is blocking for him.
Those teams in the mid-late 80s?
Very, very few sacks allowed - Dolphins
Tons and tons of sacks allowed - Eagles
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MrNubbz

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Re: The Great Wall of Dallas
« Reply #50 on: April 11, 2019, 06:51:54 AM »
Quote from: Mdot21 on April 10, 2019, 03:06:42 PM
Great post.
I’d just like to add- Larry Allen is the best guard to ever play football.
I'm sure he's in the conversation but for posterity's sake you might want to add IMO,jut sayin'
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MrNubbz

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Re: The Great Wall of Dallas
« Reply #51 on: April 11, 2019, 06:58:34 AM »
Quote from: OrangeAfroMan on April 11, 2019, 01:29:52 AM
Very, very few sacks allowed - Dolphins
Might be because Marino on top of having a quick release seemed to get the ball out faster than anyone including Elway.That just always seemed to be his M.O.I'm sure his line was stout but as long as they got in someone's way for 2-3-4 seconds the ball was launched
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Kris60

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Re: The Great Wall of Dallas
« Reply #52 on: April 11, 2019, 06:59:43 AM »
Quote from: OrangeAfroMan on April 11, 2019, 01:29:52 AM
Of course I do, but we're early in the discussion.
Maybe DAL had a great OL coach, who knows?  I haven't jumped in enough yet.
My initial idea to start to rank OLs by statistics would be ypc on running plays combined with some sort of sacks allowed %, but then I ran into a huge roadblock.  I stated looking in the 80s, and one certain QB's team always allowed very few sacks - usually in the teens, but one year it was single digits!  And this was by a very stationary QB.  Another team led the league year after year in sacks allowed - in fact, one year, they allowed over 70!  And this was with maybe the most mobile QB ever, at least pre-Vick.
So it seems sacks allowed is highly connected to who the QB is, much more so than who is blocking for him.
Those teams in the mid-late 80s?
Very, very few sacks allowed - Dolphins
Tons and tons of sacks allowed - Eagles
Yeah, I actually think your train of thought has merit but it’s going to be really hard to “prove.”  Just like a back’s YPC is tied to line play a line’s YPC is tied to back play.  QB’s who can read a blitz don’t get sacked often even if they are statues.
If you are telling me maybe Dallas’s line wasn’t quite as good as their reputation I wouldn’t think you were crazy for stating that but actually finding hard, statistical proof I think would be extremely difficult.
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FearlessF

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Re: The Great Wall of Dallas
« Reply #53 on: April 11, 2019, 11:18:01 AM »
Quote from: OrangeAfroMan on April 11, 2019, 01:22:14 AM
In what ways?
from wiki up thread.........
The 203 sacks they allowed in nine years under Houck were the fewest of any NFL team in that span. 
Hall of Fame running back Emmitt Smith earned a pair of rushing titles during Houck's tenure, and rushed for over 1,000 yards every season.
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OrangeAfroMan

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Re: The Great Wall of Dallas
« Reply #54 on: April 11, 2019, 01:45:57 PM »
Quote from: FearlessF on April 11, 2019, 11:18:01 AM
from wiki up thread.........
The 203 sacks they allowed in nine years under Houck were the fewest of any NFL team in that span.
Hall of Fame running back Emmitt Smith earned a pair of rushing titles during Houck's tenure, and rushed for over 1,000 yards every season.
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OrangeAfroMan

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Re: The Great Wall of Dallas
« Reply #55 on: April 11, 2019, 01:48:38 PM »
The response buttons are all messed up for me atm, I tried to quote, but the 'reply' field came up, then I post it and it's simply the quoted post and none of my long response.  AARRRGH
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