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Topic: #2 Ohio State (8-1, 11-1) at #3 Michigan (9-0, 12-0) Post Game

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MrNubbz

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Re: #2 Ohio State (8-0, 11-0) at #3 Michigan (8-0, 11-0) Game Week
« Reply #84 on: November 23, 2023, 07:36:03 PM »
This certainly has to be concerning to Buckeye fans...


https://twitter.com/Scott_Bings/status/1727417601712632141?

Guy wasn't right for a week or maybe his sources
well Bill Engvall was right - here's your sign!!!


"Let us endeavor so to live - that when we come to die even the undertaker will be sorry." - Mark Twain

medinabuckeye1

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Re: #2 Ohio State (8-0, 11-0) at #3 Michigan (8-0, 11-0) Game Week
« Reply #85 on: November 24, 2023, 01:07:39 PM »
Lies, Damn Lies, and . . .

I've said for a long time that the statistic I would most like to see added to Box Scores is "Median Rush".  

For those unfamiliar with statistics, the average yards per carry is simply the total rushing yards divided by the total number of carries.  

The problem with averages is that they can be skewed by outliers.  For example, according to Google, Elon Musk is the wealthiest individual in the world with a net worth of $219.9 Billion.  So it would almost certainly be accurate for me to say that the average wealth of Elon Musk and I and the last eight people to comment in this thread is about $22 Billion each.  It is also extraordinarily misleading because none of us are worth anywhere close to $22 Billion.  Elon Musk is worth 10x that and the rest of us each have a net worth that rounds to zero if rounded to the nearest Billion.  

I bring this up because I was looking at Michigan's rushing statistics in the last two editions of The Game:

  • 2021:  41 for 297, 7.2 yards per carry average
  • 2022:  35 for 252, 7.2 yards per carry average.  
In each case they had two kneel-downs each for a loss of one so if you exclude those you get:
  • 2021:  39 for 299, 7.7 yards per carry average
  • 2022:  33 for 254, 7.7 yards per carry average.  

Just looking at averages it *LOOKS* like nothing much changed.  Michigan hit the same 7.2/7.7 per carry and just bullied tOSU.  I (and most tOSU fans) would absolutely agree with that assessment of the 2021 game but it is HIGHLY misleading wrt the 2022 game.  Lets look at the Median:
  • 2021:  Median of 6 
  • 2022:  Median of 3
The median is the yards gained on the middle carry (or if there are an even number of carries, the average of the one below and the one above the middle).  Ie, in this case and excluding the two kneel-downs each year:
  • 2021:  Michigan had 19 carries of 5 yards or less, six carries of exactly 6 yards, and 14 carries of more than 6 yards
  • 2022:  Michigan had 16 carries of 2 yards or less, four carries of exactly 3 yards, and 13 carries of more than 3 yards.  


The averages are the same but the medians are VERY different because the games were very different.  In 2021 Ohio State only held Michigan to a loss or no gain on two out of 39 carries, roughly one in 20.  In 2022 Ohio State held Michigan to a loss or no gain on eight out of 33 carries, roughly one in four.  

In a related note, Ohio State effectively stifled the Michigan rushing attack in the 2022 game up until the very end.  Here are the first 28 carries in the two years:
  • 2021:  28 for 206, 7.4 yards per carry
  • 2022:  28 for 85, 3.0 yards per carry.  


In order to do that Ohio State had to make trade-offs.  The tOSU defense played the bulk of the 2022 game without any safeties deep.  That directly led to Michigan crushing Ohio State with long plays because basically every time a single Ohio State defender missed the Wolverine was off to the races with no Buckeyes in position to prevent the TD.  

One illustration of this is that in 2021 Michigan had nine carries of between 11 and 55 yards.  In 2022 they only had two.  Why, well because in 2022 most runs were stopped WAY before they got to 11 yards but the few that weren't went all the way.  

medinabuckeye1

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Re: #2 Ohio State (8-0, 11-0) at #3 Michigan (8-0, 11-0) Game Week
« Reply #86 on: November 24, 2023, 03:53:15 PM »
https://www.cleveland.com/osu/2023/11/how-ryan-day-and-jim-harbaugh-are-fueling-the-greatest-version-the-ohio-state-vs-michigan-game-of-all-time.html?outputType=amp

Thought this article was pretty good. They commented on both coaches being asked if they respected the other. Both ducked the question with what this article described as "long winded ways of saying 'no'".

medinabuckeye1

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847badgerfan

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Re: #2 Ohio State (8-0, 11-0) at #3 Michigan (8-0, 11-0) Game Week
« Reply #88 on: November 24, 2023, 04:06:01 PM »
Probably one of the most overrated coached in the history of college football, is Bo.
U RAH RAH! WIS CON SIN!

OrangeAfroMan

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Re: #2 Ohio State (8-0, 11-0) at #3 Michigan (8-0, 11-0) Game Week
« Reply #89 on: November 24, 2023, 04:23:42 PM »
Lies, Damn Lies, and . . .

I've said for a long time that the statistic I would most like to see added to Box Scores is "Median Rush". 

For those unfamiliar with statistics, the average yards per carry is simply the total rushing yards divided by the total number of carries. 

The problem with averages is that they can be skewed by outliers.  For example, according to Google, Elon Musk is the wealthiest individual in the world with a net worth of $219.9 Billion.  So it would almost certainly be accurate for me to say that the average wealth of Elon Musk and I and the last eight people to comment in this thread is about $22 Billion each.  It is also extraordinarily misleading because none of us are worth anywhere close to $22 Billion.  Elon Musk is worth 10x that and the rest of us each have a net worth that rounds to zero if rounded to the nearest Billion. 

I bring this up because I was looking at Michigan's rushing statistics in the last two editions of The Game:

  • 2021:  41 for 297, 7.2 yards per carry average
  • 2022:  35 for 252, 7.2 yards per carry average. 
In each case they had two kneel-downs each for a loss of one so if you exclude those you get:
  • 2021:  39 for 299, 7.7 yards per carry average
  • 2022:  33 for 254, 7.7 yards per carry average. 

Just looking at averages it *LOOKS* like nothing much changed.  Michigan hit the same 7.2/7.7 per carry and just bullied tOSU.  I (and most tOSU fans) would absolutely agree with that assessment of the 2021 game but it is HIGHLY misleading wrt the 2022 game.  Lets look at the Median:
  • 2021:  Median of 6
  • 2022:  Median of 3
The median is the yards gained on the middle carry (or if there are an even number of carries, the average of the one below and the one above the middle).  Ie, in this case and excluding the two kneel-downs each year:
  • 2021:  Michigan had 19 carries of 5 yards or less, six carries of exactly 6 yards, and 14 carries of more than 6 yards
  • 2022:  Michigan had 16 carries of 2 yards or less, four carries of exactly 3 yards, and 13 carries of more than 3 yards. 


The averages are the same but the medians are VERY different because the games were very different.  In 2021 Ohio State only held Michigan to a loss or no gain on two out of 39 carries, roughly one in 20.  In 2022 Ohio State held Michigan to a loss or no gain on eight out of 33 carries, roughly one in four. 

In a related note, Ohio State effectively stifled the Michigan rushing attack in the 2022 game up until the very end.  Here are the first 28 carries in the two years:
  • 2021:  28 for 206, 7.4 yards per carry
  • 2022:  28 for 85, 3.0 yards per carry. 


In order to do that Ohio State had to make trade-offs.  The tOSU defense played the bulk of the 2022 game without any safeties deep.  That directly led to Michigan crushing Ohio State with long plays because basically every time a single Ohio State defender missed the Wolverine was off to the races with no Buckeyes in position to prevent the TD. 

One illustration of this is that in 2021 Michigan had nine carries of between 11 and 55 yards.  In 2022 they only had two.  Why, well because in 2022 most runs were stopped WAY before they got to 11 yards but the few that weren't went all the way. 
Yup.
Learned this making my game.  And you can look it up in most box scores - for RBs they have a "Long Rush" column.  And often, the long rush is under 20 yards.  
Most carries - a vast majority for any RB - are 0-4 yards.  But none of them are memorable.

Here's an example from Whoa Nellie:


Just focus on the red numbers.  Most rushes are short/avg.  But longer runs do happen, so to keep the stats accurate, you need that long 18 yard rush amongst the more unremarkable yardage gains. 

Even for players or teams that have impressive averages, they still have mostly pedestrian runs. 




“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

medinabuckeye1

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Re: #2 Ohio State (8-0, 11-0) at #3 Michigan (8-0, 11-0) Game Week
« Reply #90 on: November 24, 2023, 04:50:03 PM »
Probably one of the most overrated coached in the history of college football, is Bo.
There are two sides to this argument.

His Bowl record and consequent lack of even one NC certainly support your assertion. Bo's teams actually won Bowl games in two of his last three and three of his last five seasons but the overall record was worse than dismal:
  • In his first six seasons (1969-1974) the B1G had the Rose Bowl or bust rule and he went 0-2.
  • Then he lost an Orange Bowl, three more Rose Bowls, and a Gator Bowl to drop to 0-7.
  • Then he won a RoseBowl followed by a Bluebonnet Bowl to improve to 2-7.
  • Then he lost three more (Rose, Sugar, Holiday) to drop to 2-10.
  • He finished 3-2 in Bowls in his last five seasons for a final Bowl record of 5-12.

In opposition to your assertion I would submit that he resurrected Michigan Football. The Wolverines sucked for nearly twenty years prior to Bo's arrival and were well on their way to "Minnesota" status until he showed up.


847badgerfan

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Re: #2 Ohio State (8-0, 11-0) at #3 Michigan (8-0, 11-0) Game Week
« Reply #91 on: November 24, 2023, 04:57:30 PM »
So he cheated?


:29:
U RAH RAH! WIS CON SIN!

medinabuckeye1

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Re: #2 Ohio State (8-0, 11-0) at #3 Michigan (8-0, 11-0) Game Week
« Reply #92 on: November 24, 2023, 04:59:04 PM »
So he cheated?


:29:
I thought that went without saying.

MaximumSam

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Re: #2 Ohio State (8-0, 11-0) at #3 Michigan (8-0, 11-0) Game Week
« Reply #93 on: November 24, 2023, 05:18:21 PM »
I'm not sure OSU's o-line gonna survive this one. If they are decent, OSU has a chance, but I'm not confident they will be. 

847badgerfan

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Re: #2 Ohio State (8-0, 11-0) at #3 Michigan (8-0, 11-0) Game Week
« Reply #94 on: November 24, 2023, 05:34:22 PM »
I thought that went without saying.
Bo made hay in the 1970's when his only competition was OSU.

Iowa hired Fry and started to make noise. UW hired McClain and started to make noise. MSU had Perles and started to make noise. Illinois made noise (cheated to do so under Mike White but had success under Macovic).

He retired in 1989, winning the Big Ten 4 times in the 1980's. Things changed. He did not.

When the B1G announced Penn State, he denounced the move, saying he didn't understand why and that the Big Ten was not getting Joe Paterno for long. That did not age well.
U RAH RAH! WIS CON SIN!

OrangeAfroMan

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Re: #2 Ohio State (8-0, 11-0) at #3 Michigan (8-0, 11-0) Game Week
« Reply #95 on: November 24, 2023, 06:03:04 PM »
Bo would have been fired after the 84 season in today's climate.  And possibly even in '79.  
I say 1979 because he'd lost 3 straight Rose Bowls and then went 8-4 and lost in the Gator Bowl that season.  
It would've been a "he's never getting us over the hump" firing, which would have been accurate.  

Going 6-6 in '84 and handing the NC to BYU, while being 10 years removed from his last 1-loss season would definitely had him booted nowadays.
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

medinabuckeye1

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Re: #2 Ohio State (8-0, 11-0) at #3 Michigan (8-0, 11-0) Game Week
« Reply #96 on: November 25, 2023, 07:20:23 AM »
LoL

MrNubbz

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Re: #2 Ohio State (8-0, 11-0) at #3 Michigan (8-0, 11-0) Game Week
« Reply #97 on: November 25, 2023, 09:17:21 AM »
I'm not sure OSU's o-line gonna survive this one. If they are decent, OSU has a chance, but I'm not confident they will be.
YUP,this is where I'm little P.O'd with DAY.He hasn't really recruited the trenches that well being enamored with the supposed "skill" set. That might be changing but Booger certainly out portaled him and at what Day is paid it shouldn't need pointing out
"Let us endeavor so to live - that when we come to die even the undertaker will be sorry." - Mark Twain

 

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