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Topic: The future of NCAA amateurism

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Anonymous Coward

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Re: The future of NCAA amateurism
« Reply #14 on: October 24, 2018, 10:30:59 PM »

That makes it feel like you just don't want to treat them as deserving of their true market value ... and that you will be happy with any outcome -- like the current one or a future one where they take on risk and might get boned -- where that true market value isn't 100% paid out.
It makes me curious how you'd react if you saw some guy on a message board related to your profession insist that you be paid any amount between zero dollars and less than 100% of what you are worth.
Tell me why this is different.

FearlessF

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Re: The future of NCAA amateurism
« Reply #15 on: October 24, 2018, 10:55:49 PM »
That makes it feel like you just don't want to treat them as deserving of their true market value ... 
they can either take the deal offered by the university or go out and get their true market value
I have the same situation, I can work for the deal my employer has offered or I'm free to leave and test the market for my services
my boss may be paying me more than I'm worth, similar to the 4th string QB that never sees the field and really has little value, but is receiving a scholarship
If I'm a true superstar, I may be underpaid and am free to leave and test the market
my boss isn't going to continue to pay me or hold my spot until I test the market and decide I want my old job back
there are risks in life, why coddle these athletes any more than they are already coddled?
these kids only have market value because of what the university has given them 
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Anonymous Coward

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Re: The future of NCAA amateurism
« Reply #16 on: October 24, 2018, 11:21:50 PM »
It's not the same. You can go elsewhere and do the same work for salary. They have *no* other path to exercise their market value. The NFL will not accept them out of HS, the only emerging semi-pro league I'm aware of is small and already saturated ... AND the one and only path they are permitted (the NCAA) exploits their lack of options by saying "these kids aren't allowed to be worth anything."
This would only be like your situation if, after graduation, you finally had market value, people wanted to pay you, but you learned that - patronizingly, despite your talents - you aren't old enough. So there is no choice to be made. Because everyone has to go into this one "training" program, and that program is not allowed (by its own arbitrary rules) to pay you - or even let you seek outside payment! - until the vast majority of your colleagues (likely including you) have passed their golden age and no longer have market value.

That, my friend, is the revenue side of the NCAA.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2018, 11:29:42 PM by Anonymous Coward »

FearlessF

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Re: The future of NCAA amateurism
« Reply #17 on: October 24, 2018, 11:50:09 PM »
It's not the same. You can go elsewhere and do the same work for salary. They have *no* other path to exercise their market value. The NFL will not accept them out of HS, the only emerging semi-pro league I'm aware of is small and already saturated ... AND the one and only path they are permitted (the NCAA) exploits their lack of options by saying "these kids aren't allowed to be worth anything."
no other path?  perhaps my type of work has a small market that is already saturated.  Perhaps the big business (NFL) won't accept me out of high school because I don't have a college degree? perhaps I should have chosen another type of work?
perhaps these kids should play baseball or get a job selling cars?
perhaps if this legislation breaks NCAA Div I football the NFL will accept them out of high school or the semi-pro league will expand?
That might open up a different type of exploitation 
if the kid wants to sign autographs or sell jerseys, that's fine.  He can do that on his time and dime.  a shoe contract with Nike?  go for it.
"Courage; Generosity; Fairness; Honor; In these are the true awards of manly sport."

Anonymous Coward

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Re: The future of NCAA amateurism
« Reply #18 on: October 24, 2018, 11:57:10 PM »
These CFB kids have a gift with an annual market value approximating that of a physician or lawyer**. Yet you think one good alternative is for them to drop that and ... sell cars instead? This conversation works better if we're being more serious than that.

But let's put that aside for a second. Your last paragraph (about letting CFB players collect income for their signatures, for advertisements, for their likeness, etc.) is all that I'm pushing for. I didn't expect you to be accepting of it. Am I understanding you correctly?
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**(with the biggest distinction being that unlike a physician or lawyer, most of these kids are having their lifelong highest market value peak at this young age, rather than continuously build until retirement##)
« Last Edit: October 25, 2018, 12:12:07 AM by Anonymous Coward »

Anonymous Coward

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Re: The future of NCAA amateurism
« Reply #19 on: October 25, 2018, 12:20:27 AM »
This is often the point in the conversation when someone asks "why do they need the income in the first place?"
When polled, the #1 answer is to help their parent/s and siblings eat and be safe. I've read that "sending some home" is what most NCAA athletes are doing with their new $2-6K stipends already.

WhiskeyM

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Re: The future of NCAA amateurism
« Reply #20 on: October 25, 2018, 12:23:58 AM »
I don't think the schools even need to pay the players. Just give them permission to pursue their own market value. If someone wants to pay to put their name and face in a video game? Let them. If someone wants to put them in a commercial? Let them. If someone wants to hand them dollars? Let them.

Only require that it all be properly accounted for tax purposes.
This is a fair practice on paper.  I'm in favor of everyone earning what they are worth.
In reality, it is going to be far too corrupt.
The divide between the blue bloods and everyone else is already massive.  Put the above practice into action and the divide becomes insurmountable.
The blue bloods have too much money to offer.  They have superior boosters.  For example...Mr Michigan Booster would now legally be able to pay any player for any service.  Mr Michigan owns a car dealership. It just so happens that there is a TV commercial available to every 4 and 5 star recruit that signs with UM, for $60K per player.  The possibilities are endless.  The lower programs, who already gave a hard time matching facilities, etc, now have a greater obstacle to overcome.
The haves should just form a NFL minor league at that point.

MarqHusker

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Re: The future of NCAA amateurism
« Reply #21 on: October 25, 2018, 12:40:42 AM »
This thread is gonna get long.

Anonymous Coward

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Re: The future of NCAA amateurism
« Reply #22 on: October 25, 2018, 01:03:30 AM »
This is a fair practice on paper.  I'm in favor of everyone earning what they are worth.
In reality, it is going to be far too corrupt.
The divide between the blue bloods and everyone else is already massive.  Put the above practice into action and the divide becomes insurmountable.
The blue bloods have too much money to offer.  They have superior boosters.  For example...Mr Michigan Booster would now legally be able to pay any player for any service.  Mr Michigan owns a car dealership. It just so happens that there is a TV commercial available to every 4 and 5 star recruit that signs with UM, for $60K per player.  The possibilities are endless.  The lower programs, who already gave a hard time matching facilities, etc, now have a greater obstacle to overcome.
The haves should just form a NFL minor league at that point.

That doesn't sound like corruption to me. It sounds like pure capitalism. 
Bagmen in the current system are corrupt because they are against the rules. In a system that frees each player to seek their own market value, zero of that is corrupt/shady because it is explicitly encouraged. 
In terms of pure capitalism, I won't be sad if the P5 were to further pare down because they don't trust they could compete. But that won't be a very popular opinion. So I'm back to the trusty angle from above: At least then it would be out in the open. 

Anonymous Coward

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Re: The future of NCAA amateurism
« Reply #23 on: October 25, 2018, 01:07:06 AM »
This thread is gonna get long.
Each of these threads goes longer than the last - probably because the change keeps getting closer. This time it may be at our doorstep.

TamrielsKeeper

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Re: The future of NCAA amateurism
« Reply #24 on: October 25, 2018, 04:50:47 AM »
I'll admit that many of these players don't get screwed:

  • The nameless football and basketball players who sit the bench don't have a market value. Not screwed.
  • Almost 100% of the non-revenue athletes also have no market value (those teams bring in less revenue than expenditure for a reason). They, also, are Not screwed.
  • The all stars who stay healthy and go pro ... can end up with a market value that overwhelms the market value they had in college. Negligibly screwed.
  • But the role players who are too small or slow to go Pro but are nevertheless *excellent* at this game we love and fuel our teams ... For many of *them*, this is the most market value they'll EVER be worth. Why do we "Correct that value to zero" so we can take it from them? So that Dave Brandon can hire 30 MBAs to give PPTs about "brand management." Puhlease. These are the ones it's all about. These guys are EPICALLY SCREWED.
And CFB is *nothing* without role players like that. For Michigan, this would be guys like Bryan Mone, Martavious Odoms, Vincent Smith, Tru Wilson, Ben Mason, Sean McKeon, Lawrence Marshall, maybe even Brandon Watson.
This is a great synopsis that pretty much nails the crux of the problem with the "we need to pay all college football players!"
I agree the NCAA should have no right to suppress a player going out and signing an endorsement deal and making money off their likeness, to me, allowing that is the clear solution here and we leave it at that.  Yeah, that opens a recruiting Pandora's box, but at the end of the day, it's the lesser of two evils.
The VAST majority of college football players will never play professional ball, and from a "talent" standpoint, are nothing more than amateurs - their "market value" is likely no more than the value of the scholarship they receive.  The thing that's ridiculous about players demanding payment is, there are hundreds of thousands of kids who would love the opportunity to play FBS ball for nothing more than the scholarship, so the "labor force" is adequately compensated or they wouldn't find people lining up to participate.
The money is available because of fan/alumni loyalty to the SCHOOLS, not the players.  I realize you can't have fans without players, but this isn't the NFL, players don't stay for decades at a time.  The really good players are usually gone in three years.  The fact remains, if you removed those players and replaced them all with less talented players, people would still watch because it's their school, it would just be a lower level of football being played - think ivy league.
The other Pandora's box this opens is Title IX - you can't hold schools accountable for paying the revenue producing athletes, then expect them to subsidize a bunch of sports they lose money on.  If the schools have to share revenue with the revenue producing athletes, then they should be able to do away with the sports that lose money (and thus take money away from the revenue producers the courts so badly want to see paid).  This is why I'm a fan of allowing athletes to monetize their likeness - it largely avoids that whole mess.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2018, 04:54:11 AM by TamrielsKeeper »

MrNubbz

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Re: The future of NCAA amateurism
« Reply #25 on: October 25, 2018, 06:00:34 AM »
The haves should just form a NFL minor league at that point.
Been preaching that for quite sometime now only the haves being the NFL.Let Universities get on with the business of higher education
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Temp430

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Re: The future of NCAA amateurism
« Reply #26 on: October 25, 2018, 06:59:45 AM »
Been preaching that for quite sometime now only the haves being the NFL.Let Universities get on with the business of higher education
Agreed.  That would allow those who wish to just do football to be paid and just do football.  Those who wish to get an education could do what they're doing now with some changes like no early entry into the NFL draft.  If you choose to go the school route you have no NFL opportunity for four years even if you drop out and go to the NFL minor league.

I have a very hard time imagining the University of Michigan paying players other than a scholarship.  I don't know what the going rate is now for baseball AAA minor league players but it's no where near the NFL league minimum.  The education route will still be very attractive to many.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2018, 07:05:21 AM by Temp430 »
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847badgerfan

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Re: The future of NCAA amateurism
« Reply #27 on: October 25, 2018, 07:18:21 AM »
Just end athletic scholarships and be done with it. 
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