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Topic: Coronavirus discussion and Quarantine ideas

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OrangeAfroMan

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Re: Coronavirus discussion and Quarantine ideas
« Reply #6986 on: July 17, 2020, 11:42:15 AM »
Oh damn, the mask lobby!
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

utee94

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Re: Coronavirus discussion and Quarantine ideas
« Reply #6987 on: July 17, 2020, 11:50:34 AM »
Big Mask is really working its mojo.

OrangeAfroMan

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Re: Coronavirus discussion and Quarantine ideas
« Reply #6988 on: July 17, 2020, 11:54:47 AM »
Still haven't seen any rigorous scientific evidence that child-to-adult spread is a major risk (at least not at the middle school and younger levels). We know that adult-to-adult spread certainly is a risk, so adults should stay masked and stay away from one another within the school building.  I don't think these problems are impossible to overcome.
I'm not saying you're wrong here, but I'm going to highlight the important phrasing.
When we're dealing with the sheer volume of 50 million students and 3.5 million teachers, even a minor or infinitesimal risk still yields dead kids and dead teachers.

I'm not going to say a teacher's life is worth more than any other profession's, but I will point out the reasonable expectation of choosing certain careers is different.  A person going into medicine/nursing/EMT work knows they're going to be exposed to this sort of thing, or at least the reasonable possibility of it.  Police officers know, going in, that their job will be more dangerous than average, dealing with criminals and guns and such.

Teachers never signed up for all the school shootings that happened, despite probably nearly 100% of them willing to take a bullet for their students.  We didn't choose this profession thinking we'd be thrown into buildings full of contagious people (exaggeration, I know) against our will.  But that's not even it - much like the sacrificial attitude in an active shooter situation, teachers are, by and large, an extremely empathetic population.  It's not even about us, it's about the small % of young deaths that will become inevitable.  It's about kids bringing the virus home and their parents or grandparents dying.  

We simply don't want to be a part of that.  And we've got normal-citizen-filled school boards making these decisions, influenced by (in some places) no-mask-for-me communities.  Hell, an Orange Co., CA school board voted to start back school with no masks or preventative measures.  It's insanity.  They're guaranteeing SOME child deaths, teacher deaths, and family deaths.  Dead people who wouldn't be dead, otherwise.


“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

longhorn320

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Re: Coronavirus discussion and Quarantine ideas
« Reply #6989 on: July 17, 2020, 11:56:07 AM »
Let's bet a dollar on who they're voting for in November.
hush orange man or we'll cut off your oats
They won't let me give blood anymore. The burnt orange color scares the hell out of the doctors.

OrangeAfroMan

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Re: Coronavirus discussion and Quarantine ideas
« Reply #6990 on: July 17, 2020, 11:57:35 AM »
hush orange man or we'll cut off your oats
I don't even know what that means, but I'll assume it's a compliment and that you agree with everything I say.
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

utee94

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Re: Coronavirus discussion and Quarantine ideas
« Reply #6991 on: July 17, 2020, 11:57:42 AM »
I'm not saying you're wrong here, but I'm going to highlight the important phrasing.
When we're dealing with the sheer volume of 50 million students and 3.5 million teachers, even a minor or infinitesimal risk still yields dead kids and dead teachers.

I'm not going to say a teacher's life is worth more than any other profession's, but I will point out the reasonable expectation of choosing certain careers is different.  A person going into medicine/nursing/EMT work knows they're going to be exposed to this sort of thing, or at least the reasonable possibility of it.  Police officers know, going in, that their job will be more dangerous than average, dealing with criminals and guns and such.

Teachers never signed up for all the school shootings that happened, despite probably nearly 100% of them willing to take a bullet for their students.  We didn't choose this profession thinking we'd be thrown into buildings full of contagious people (exaggeration, I know) against our will.  But that's not even it - much like the sacrificial attitude in an active shooter situation, teachers are, by and large, an extremely empathetic population.  It's not even about us, it's about the small % of young deaths that will become inevitable.  It's about kids bringing the virus home and their parents or grandparents dying. 

We simply don't want to be a part of that.  And we've got normal-citizen-filled school boards making these decisions, influenced by (in some places) no-mask-for-me communities.  Hell, an Orange Co., CA school board voted to start back school with no masks or preventative measures.  It's insanity.  They're guaranteeing SOME child deaths, teacher deaths, and family deaths.  Dead people who wouldn't be dead, otherwise.




Hey, I get it. 

The alternative solution I'm offering, is canceling the 2020/2021 schoolyear.  We've canceled bars, we've canceled restaurants, we've canceled cleaning companies and engineering firms and retailers, we've canceled cruise ships and amusement parks and water parks and thousands of other types of businesses.

If we believe there is risk-- if the science points us there-- then why wouldn't we cancel the schoolyear and try again next year?
« Last Edit: July 17, 2020, 12:09:42 PM by utee94 »

bwarbiany

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Re: Coronavirus discussion and Quarantine ideas
« Reply #6992 on: July 17, 2020, 12:12:55 PM »
Could be, I certainly can't speak for them or anywhere else.  We haven't really had any spikes associated with gatherings for Mother's Day, Father's Day, Memorial Day, or the 4th of July.  If anything we're seeing hospitalizations level off right now in the timeframe when we'd expect to see spikes from 4th of July activity.  So either A) people didn't gather much for the 4th or B) they did so but remained outdoors (like we did).  That's only my speculation of course.

But rather than those holiday events, or the protests and riots, our recent increases I think can be tied pretty closely to the loosening of indoor restrictions (allowing bars to open and allowing an increase to inside dining capacity in late May), as well as a general, increasing laxness to masking and protocol since I guess some people thought we'd "beaten" it or something.
Sadly, that's what I think as well. It's as much quarantine fatigue as anything else. People are just used to COVID being a thing now, and are going on about their daily lives, especially amongst the young and invincible cohort. 

We want to blame protests, or holiday parties, or whatever, because as long as we can point to the lax behaviors of OTHERS, we don't have to look in the mirror and see our own. 

Still haven't seen any rigorous scientific evidence that child-to-adult spread is a major risk (at least not at the middle school and younger levels). We know that adult-to-adult spread certainly is a risk, so adults should stay masked and stay away from one another within the school building.  I don't think these problems are impossible to overcome.
I don't know how easy this is to do in elementary school, where teachers might need to physically approach a student to assist with instruction, but at the middle school and HS level it shouldn't be that hard for the teacher to maintain a safe distance from the students.

I don't recall any of my classes growing up where student desks were within ~10-15 ft of the blackboard at the front of the room. Usually the teacher's desk was well spaced from student desks as well.

I think the best answer is twofold:

  • School should be open for children whose parents prefer in-person instruction. In many households both parents work. In many households the parents don't have the ability or the time to devote to supplementing their child's instruction. And in many households, particularly parents of younger children, the parents themselves are in low-risk age cohorts. A couple of two 29-year old parents with a child in first grade are also in a low-risk group. 
  • Schools should try to also incorporate distance learning for parents who cannot for various reasons send their kids to school. This might be families where they live with an elderly or immunocompromised relative who can't be exposed--or a parent is in that group. This might be families where one parent stays at home and doesn't work, and has both the time and ability to supplement the child's education. This might be families where they simply think in-person instruction is too risky and they're not comfortable with it.

This has the advantage that by many parents choosing to keep their kids home, it makes distancing EASIER for those who choose in-person instruction. 

Do we really need a one-size-fits-all solution? I don't think so, because forcing ALL kids into in-person instruction IMHO is risky, and forcing ALL kids into distance learning will mean that many basically have a wasted year.



Riffraft

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Re: Coronavirus discussion and Quarantine ideas
« Reply #6993 on: July 17, 2020, 12:23:35 PM »
This couldn't be less relevant.  The message is the thing.
Yes the message is much more important than the reality, the science, etc. 

847badgerfan

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Re: Coronavirus discussion and Quarantine ideas
« Reply #6994 on: July 17, 2020, 12:35:06 PM »
Hey, I get it. 

The alternative solution I'm offering, is canceling the 2020/2021 schoolyear.  We've canceled bars, we've canceled restaurants, we've canceled cleaning companies and engineering firms and retailers, we've canceled cruise ships and amusement parks and water parks and thousands of other types of businesses.

If we believe there is risk-- if the science points us there-- then why wouldn't we cancel the schoolyear and try again next year?
I agree. And since everyone else who is canceled is going without pay...
U RAH RAH! WIS CON SIN!

bwarbiany

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Re: Coronavirus discussion and Quarantine ideas
« Reply #6995 on: July 17, 2020, 12:35:33 PM »
I'm not going to say a teacher's life is worth more than any other profession's, but I will point out the reasonable expectation of choosing certain careers is different.  A person going into medicine/nursing/EMT work knows they're going to be exposed to this sort of thing, or at least the reasonable possibility of it.  Police officers know, going in, that their job will be more dangerous than average, dealing with criminals and guns and such.

Teachers never signed up for all the school shootings that happened, despite probably nearly 100% of them willing to take a bullet for their students.  We didn't choose this profession thinking we'd be thrown into buildings full of contagious people (exaggeration, I know) against our will.  But that's not even it - much like the sacrificial attitude in an active shooter situation, teachers are, by and large, an extremely empathetic population.  It's not even about us, it's about the small % of young deaths that will become inevitable.  It's about kids bringing the virus home and their parents or grandparents dying. 

We simply don't want to be a part of that.  And we've got normal-citizen-filled school boards making these decisions, influenced by (in some places) no-mask-for-me communities.  Hell, an Orange Co., CA school board voted to start back school with no masks or preventative measures.  It's insanity.  They're guaranteeing SOME child deaths, teacher deaths, and family deaths.  Dead people who wouldn't be dead, otherwise.
What about parents who legitimately can't stay home with their kids? Parents who both work--and need to work to make ends meet--who are in jobs that aren't closed right now? Parents who rely on school ~9 months of the year not only to educate their kids but also so those kids have a place to be during the day?

So those kids are going to day care, and still have the same chance of getting infected/dying and you substitute dead day care workers for dead teachers? 

BTW in Orange County the school board decisions are not binding on the school districts for their practices--the districts themselves set the practice. My kids (two districts, one charter and one public school) were both talking about offering distance learning alongside traditional instruction, and in-person learning would have various requirements for distancing. Supposedly Newsom has a press conference in a couple hours regarding statewide school guidelines/mandates, so that might trump everything, but either way the OC Board of Schools was effectively just pissing into the wind.

bwarbiany

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Re: Coronavirus discussion and Quarantine ideas
« Reply #6996 on: July 17, 2020, 12:46:46 PM »
Yes the message is much more important than the reality, the science, etc.
The science supports mask wearing. As stated, on the individual level the degree to which it protects you is unknown, but as it relates to societal spread a small improvement in individual risk can create big differences to spread of the virus. 

That said, the issue at argument wasn't about the science, it was about enforceability of mask mandates. Can they and will they be enforced?

I agree with OAM on that one that whether they're being actively enforced is mostly immaterial. A mandate gives the message that something isn't optional, and thus it "flips the script" for societal pressure. If you call mask-wearing a choice, then I (as a mask wearer) can't exert social pressure on you for not wearing one. If you call it a mandate for public health, then it's a lot easier for mask wearing to become the default behavior and those who refuse get branded by society as malcontents, or people unwilling to do something to keep the rest of us safe, etc.

Here in CA Newsom created a statewide mask mandate a few weeks back when the cases started spiking. There were no penalties associated with it. Some localities (like Orange County) said their sheriffs were too busy to waste their time enforcing it. And nearly immediately, despite this, mask compliance went visibly up everywhere I looked in OC. 

Whether anyone actually gets fined for not wearing a mask is less important than the messaging that it's required and not optional. 

utee94

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Re: Coronavirus discussion and Quarantine ideas
« Reply #6997 on: July 17, 2020, 12:51:00 PM »

The science supports mask wearing. As stated, on the individual level the degree to which it protects you is unknown, but as it relates to societal spread a small improvement in individual risk can create big differences to spread of the virus.

That said, the issue at argument wasn't about the science, it was about enforceability of mask mandates. Can they and will they be enforced?

I agree with OAM on that one that whether they're being actively enforced is mostly immaterial. A mandate gives the message that something isn't optional, and thus it "flips the script" for societal pressure. If you call mask-wearing a choice, then I (as a mask wearer) can't exert social pressure on you for not wearing one. If you call it a mandate for public health, then it's a lot easier for mask wearing to become the default behavior and those who refuse get branded by society as malcontents, or people unwilling to do something to keep the rest of us safe, etc.

Here in CA Newsom created a statewide mask mandate a few weeks back when the cases started spiking. There were no penalties associated with it. Some localities (like Orange County) said their sheriffs were too busy to waste their time enforcing it. And nearly immediately, despite this, mask compliance went visibly up everywhere I looked in OC.

Whether anyone actually gets fined for not wearing a mask is less important than the messaging that it's required and not optional.

Agree 100% on this.  Just the mandate itself, changes the behavior, even without enforcement.  It's not easy to dodge 40 non-mask-wearers in the grocery store.  It's quite easy to dodge one or two.
  

NorthernOhioBuckeye

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Re: Coronavirus discussion and Quarantine ideas
« Reply #6998 on: July 17, 2020, 12:56:08 PM »
It's not about being popular or not, your post is irresponsible.  Places with actual, widespread mask use are on the back end of this thing, and the mighty USA is still waist-deep in it because of our large, loud 'n proud population refusing to do the right thing. 

And your post is condescending. You don't like my opinion, then ignore it as I will share it non the less.  But I know that offends your sensibilities as only those views you agree with are permitted. 

OrangeAfroMan

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Re: Coronavirus discussion and Quarantine ideas
« Reply #6999 on: July 17, 2020, 12:56:25 PM »
Yes the message is much more important than the reality, the science, etc.
What?
That's not at all my intention, stop it.
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

 

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