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Topic: Coronavirus discussion and Quarantine ideas

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longhorn320

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Re: Coronavirus discussion and Quarantine ideas
« Reply #5012 on: June 08, 2020, 01:00:09 PM »
I don’t care for him, but your saying it nicely. The factual evidence on the whole collusion thing now clearly points to fraud at the least and possible laws broken, as a means to start an investigation that many behind knew had no merit.
not far different from the whole impeachment thing.  Total transparency- here is a tape of the call.
then the Kavanaugh fiasco.  What the left and media did to that man and is family was so sickening.  And with literally NO evidence. And yet like the Russia thing, and impeachment, the media was all in on all of it.  I remember hearing news @ anchors” literally calling Kavanaugh a serial rapist- repeatedly!

But those very same people won’t talk about Tara Reade AT All!

And finally the Pandemic.  The media hypocrisy is over the top.  And has been exposed. 

like I said in another thread if I were to believe the media:

if you protest the lock down, you are spreading it

if you attend church services- you are spreading it

if you protest over George Floyd, or setting a church on fire- you are not spreading it.

after a while you get to completely disregard virtually everything the media puts out, and you get to feeling line POTUS is the huge underdog. 

yep if you believe CNN Trump is a double digit underdog to Biden

no way thats true the American people are not that stupid
They won't let me give blood anymore. The burnt orange color scares the hell out of the doctors.

CWSooner

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Re: Coronavirus discussion and Quarantine ideas
« Reply #5013 on: June 08, 2020, 01:00:14 PM »
OK, what do you think he WOULD do is Congress and SCOTUS didn't tether him?

I agree he would rather be a dictator, but he simply can't be in any realistic world.
He can't stay focused on one thing long enough to be a dictator.  It doesn't take much to knock him off one track and on to another.
I would add the military leadership to the tethers.  It is not a good thing when the military has to be a tether to duly elected civilian authority, but, in this case, it's the lesser of the evils.
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Cincydawg

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Re: Coronavirus discussion and Quarantine ideas
« Reply #5014 on: June 08, 2020, 01:00:25 PM »
Folks under 30 could get a catastrophic policy without paying the "tax".


OrangeAfroMan

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Re: Coronavirus discussion and Quarantine ideas
« Reply #5015 on: June 08, 2020, 01:04:24 PM »
yep if you believe CNN Trump is a double digit underdog to Biden

no way thats true the American people are not that stupid
More specifically, like last time, many who are voting for Trump don't share that information.  Whether it's privacy or shame, I don't know.
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

longhorn320

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Re: Coronavirus discussion and Quarantine ideas
« Reply #5016 on: June 08, 2020, 01:04:51 PM »
I realize that the mandate is hard to defend as a libertarian, but here goes...

We allow for mandated auto insurance as a condition of driving a vehicle on public roads. I don't think many libertarians really have a problem with that. The idea is that the ability to buy and drive a car gives you an enormous power to wreak damage on others, both economic and physical injury. But you have a choice--if you don't want to drive a car, you don't need auto insurance. So there's no fight.

The young and healthy among us decide "hey, I don't need health insurance." They're young and healthy, and believe themselves invincible, and the vast majority of them probably won't really use their insurance much.

But... What happens when they're playing extreme ultimate frisbee and crack heads with someone, the ambulance is called, and they have to go do the ICU to stop a brain bleed? They're going to get care, because the hospital doesn't make insurance a gate to providing emergency care. These young people aren't given the choice "do you want to get care or die because you can't afford it?", they are just given care.

They get a $200,000 hospital bill after it's over, and what do they do?

Well, the young and healthy often don't have assets, so they declare bankruptcy. And the hospital (and taxpayers, often), get stuck with the bill.

I would agree with young healthy people gambling with their own health care if we lived in a society that would kick them to the curb and not provide care if they couldn't afford it. (Not that I would consider that a compassionate society, of course).

But in the current society, they're not gambling with their health, they're gambling with the hospital's money. And when you're gambling with someone else's money, you get all the upside of winning (you get care if you need it) and none of the downside of losing (because you're not risking your own assets).

--------------------

Despite the above, one of the critical problems with Obamacare is that there was no option to JUST sign up for catastrophic care. They put a whole bunch of mandatory stuff into what an insurance plan must include to qualify, so there was really no way for young, healthy people to avoid signing up for plans they actually didn't need. So I agree with you there... But that doesn't change that the mandate can potentially be justifiable.
first of all insurance required for driving still gives the taxpayer a choice on what insurance he can get or not to drive at all

second just because the plan needed everybody to buy insurance to work does not make it constitutional

in short it was a redistribution of wealth which was very socialist of them
They won't let me give blood anymore. The burnt orange color scares the hell out of the doctors.

longhorn320

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Re: Coronavirus discussion and Quarantine ideas
« Reply #5017 on: June 08, 2020, 01:07:31 PM »
Folks under 30 could get a catastrophic policy without paying the "tax".


yep but because obamacare existed many insurance options were taken away from the American people
They won't let me give blood anymore. The burnt orange color scares the hell out of the doctors.

OrangeAfroMan

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Re: Coronavirus discussion and Quarantine ideas
« Reply #5018 on: June 08, 2020, 01:09:25 PM »
OK, what do you think he WOULD do is Congress and SCOTUS didn't tether him?

I agree he would rather be a dictator, but he simply can't be in any realistic world.
I know the direct power of the president is limited, but he'd encourage and get lots of things through.  He'd probably end as many aid/funding programs as possible, somehow increase military spending, more blatantly surround himself with 'yes men', etc.

Actually, now that I think about it, most everything he would do would simply benefit himself.  So we'd kind of dodge a bullet due to his narcissism, lol.  He very well may not care much about wide-ranging policies.  
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

longhorn320

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Re: Coronavirus discussion and Quarantine ideas
« Reply #5019 on: June 08, 2020, 01:10:13 PM »
More specifically, like last time, many who are voting for Trump don't share that information.  Whether it's privacy or shame, I don't know.
no what it is is the left media folks using poll results as a political tool to sway the voters

inaccurate polls is on purpose
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Cincydawg

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Re: Coronavirus discussion and Quarantine ideas
« Reply #5020 on: June 08, 2020, 01:10:56 PM »
The obvious thing Dictator Trump would do if he could is eliminate elections, and he'd appoint members of Congress, if he bothered with one.

OrangeAfroMan

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Re: Coronavirus discussion and Quarantine ideas
« Reply #5021 on: June 08, 2020, 01:13:26 PM »


in short it was a redistribution of wealth which was very socialist of them
It is, BUT, it's not a redistribution from wealthy to poor, it's from old to young.  As it benefits an entire cohort, regardless of socioeconomic status, race, or whatever, I think that makes it "better".  

Tomorrow's elderly would have benefited from it previously as they pay into it.  The idea is perfectly harmless once it's rolling along, but getting it started is an issue, I agree.
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

OrangeAfroMan

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Re: Coronavirus discussion and Quarantine ideas
« Reply #5022 on: June 08, 2020, 01:14:43 PM »
no what it is is the left media folks using poll results as a political tool to sway the voters

inaccurate polls is on purpose
Again, this is just another assertion, based on nothing.  Polls gain credibility by being more accurate than other polls.  So they have a motive to be as accurate as possible.

Purposely slanted polls are dismissed and ignored, or should be.  You know this.
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

OrangeAfroMan

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Re: Coronavirus discussion and Quarantine ideas
« Reply #5023 on: June 08, 2020, 01:16:46 PM »
The obvious thing Dictator Trump would do if he could is eliminate elections, and he'd appoint members of Congress, if he bothered with one.
Right, again, the more I think about it, the less he'd actively do against people.  It'd mostly be FOR himself.  Like appointees - I recall on the news, and I don't remember the actual numbers, but the president has to appoint like 150 positions of this or that and 2 years into his presidency, he had only appointed something like 70.  Obama and W. had appointed 147 or so of them at the same point in their terms.

It's hard to do your job when you're watching TV and tweeting all day.
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

Cincydawg

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Re: Coronavirus discussion and Quarantine ideas
« Reply #5024 on: June 08, 2020, 01:16:53 PM »
It was not without harm for me personally.  And it left 30 million uninsured.  


CWSooner

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Re: Coronavirus discussion and Quarantine ideas
« Reply #5025 on: June 08, 2020, 01:21:09 PM »
I realize that the mandate is hard to defend as a libertarian, but here goes...

We allow for mandated auto insurance as a condition of driving a vehicle on public roads. I don't think many libertarians really have a problem with that. The idea is that the ability to buy and drive a car gives you an enormous power to wreak damage on others, both economic and physical injury. But you have a choice--if you don't want to drive a car, you don't need auto insurance. So there's no fight.

The young and healthy among us decide "hey, I don't need health insurance." They're young and healthy, and believe themselves invincible, and the vast majority of them probably won't really use their insurance much.

But... What happens when they're playing extreme ultimate frisbee and crack heads with someone, the ambulance is called, and they have to go do the ICU to stop a brain bleed? They're going to get care, because the hospital doesn't make insurance a gate to providing emergency care. These young people aren't given the choice "do you want to get care or die because you can't afford it?", they are just given care.

They get a $200,000 hospital bill after it's over, and what do they do?

Well, the young and healthy often don't have assets, so they declare bankruptcy. And the hospital (and taxpayers, often), get stuck with the bill.

I would agree with young healthy people gambling with their own health care if we lived in a society that would kick them to the curb and not provide care if they couldn't afford it. (Not that I would consider that a compassionate society, of course).

But in the current society, they're not gambling with their health, they're gambling with the hospital's money. And when you're gambling with someone else's money, you get all the upside of winning (you get care if you need it) and none of the downside of losing (because you're not risking your own assets).

--------------------

Despite the above, one of the critical problems with Obamacare is that there was no option to JUST sign up for catastrophic care. They put a whole bunch of mandatory stuff into what an insurance plan must include to qualify, so there was really no way for young, healthy people to avoid signing up for plans they actually didn't need. So I agree with you there... But that doesn't change that the mandate can potentially be justifiable.
Yes, it's hard to defend, but you did about the best job possible.  So, congrats!
There was no modesty about it.  There was no acceptance that there might be other, even better, ideas to consider.  The authors of ObamaCare would not have even considered a "catastrophic-care-only" option, because the ACA was going to be the miracle fix for everything.  To have allowed a limited option would have been an admission that it was not all win-win, that people were being commanded to give up something and their views ought to be considered too.
Another part of what was wrong was the process itself.  They rammed it through Congress without a single Republican vote using parliamentary trickery to the max.  Previous major changes in the relationship between American citizens and their government (like Social Security and the Great Society programs) got at least some buy-in from the opposition party.  Not with ObamaCare.  The opposition was told that they had lost the election and should go to the back of the bus.
So, sold to the American people with lies, passed by parliamentary trickery, and ruled to be Constitutional by SCOTUS on logic that the administration wasn't even using in its arguments before the Court. What's not to like about all that?
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