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Topic: Rich get richer

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betarhoalphadelta

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Re: Rich get richer
« Reply #336 on: September 13, 2023, 01:21:34 PM »
If you get money AND a playoff spot (and theoretically, a percentage of the playoff money) then you have additional incentives to make a conference affiliation.

There is no reason to be in the MAC right now other than no one else will take you. But if the MAC was guaranteed a playoff spot, Purdue might take a lot longer look at them.
One more thing, and it's one that I think fans of helmet teams fail to understand. 

You've spent your entire fandom thinking about national championships. That's what you play for. 

So you think about a team like Purdue and assume our goal is to make it into a playoff where we challenge for a national title. 

But that's not it. Fans of non-helmet teams largely did NOT think about national championships. Honestly I rarely cared about the MNC at all. Going 8-4 or 9-3 was a successful year. Maybe having a good enough year to have a NYD bowl. Maybe beating Notre Dame (and definitely beating the Hoosiers). We had things to play for that were NOT the NC. 

Or, at least we used to. Now with a 12-team playoff, the playoff is all that matters. And it only matters to about a dozen teams at the top of the sport who can recruit and have legit NC aspirations. Of which mine is not one, so the sport no longer matters to me. 

medinabuckeye1

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Re: Rich get richer
« Reply #337 on: September 13, 2023, 01:39:17 PM »
Here is what COULD happen, someday, with the 12 team concept.  UAB gets in as the 12 seed as the highest ranked G5 conference champ at 11-2.  They play say at UGA and score a HUGE upset as the Dawgs have 4 TOs to none etc.  Then they upset Texas in the final four round by a point, and then they beat Ohio State miraculously.  All highly improbable of course.  The AP poll comes out with Alabama as Number 1 and UAB at 5.
Problem #1 is that you only have them winning three games:
  • Georgia
  • Texas
  • Ohio State
The 12-seed would have to win four games:
  • 12 over 5 to get into the final eight
  • 12 over 4 to get to the final four
  • 12 over 1/8/9 to get to the CG
  • 12 over 2/3/6/7/10/11 in the CG

So in addition to the three helmets you already have them taking out, they'd need a fourth big win.

Problem #2 is that the chances of pulling off four consecutive stupendous upsets are vanishingly small.

Problem #3 is that if they did all of that I just can't see anyone, not even @OrangeAfroMan or I arguing that they didn't deserve the #1 ranking.


I'm very outspoken in making the argument that upsets happen and the best team doesn't always win so in your example I'd probably still be saying that after UAB's road win at Georgia and maybe even after their upset of Texas but once they pulled off a third and then a fourth consecutive upset the numbers just don't work. It becomes more likely that we are wrong than it is that they beat those odds four consecutive times.

Problem #4 is that it would never happen. The playoff and playoff expansion makes it less likely rather than more likely for a non-helmet to win because UGA/TX/tOSU recruit at the highest level and spend the most on coaching, NIL, facilities, etc. They will suffer upsets but the more chances you give themen the more likely they (collectively) are to eventually win.

betarhoalphadelta

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Re: Rich get richer
« Reply #338 on: September 13, 2023, 01:43:30 PM »
Problem #1 is that you only have them winning three games:
  • Georgia
  • Texas
  • Ohio State
The 12-seed would have to win four games:
  • 12 over 5 to get into the final eight
  • 12 over 4 to get to the final four
  • 12 over 1/8/9 to get to the CG
  • 12 over 2/3/6/7/10/11 in the CG

So in addition to the three helmets you already have them taking out, they'd need a fourth big win.

Problem #2 is that the chances of pulling off four consecutive stupendous upsets are vanishingly small.

Problem #3 is that if they did all of that I just can't see anyone, not even @OrangeAfroMan or I arguing that they didn't deserve the #1 ranking.


I'm very outspoken in making the argument that upsets happen and the best team doesn't always win so in your example I'd probably still be saying that after UAB's road win at Georgia and maybe even after their upset of Texas but once they pulled off a third and then a fourth consecutive upset the numbers just don't work. It becomes more likely that we are wrong than it is that they beat those odds four consecutive times.

Problem #4 is that it would never happen. The playoff and playoff expansion makes it less likely rather than more likely for a non-helmet to win because UGA/TX/tOSU recruit at the highest level and spend the most on coaching, NIL, facilities, etc. They will suffer upsets but the more chances you give themen the more likely they (collectively) are to eventually win.
Exactly. It's like asking "but what if a 16-seed won the NCAA Tournament?" After all, if they can knock of a 1 seed (which has happened twice now), they can beat anyone in the field, right? 

Theoretically, it can happen. Realistically, it's impossible. 

So it's not really worth thinking about. 

Cincydawg

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Re: Rich get richer
« Reply #339 on: September 13, 2023, 01:46:49 PM »
It is highly unlikely.  And I forgot one game, thanks.  Another scenario, more plausible, UGA loses two games earlyish and then does well, but doesn't win the SEC, at 10-2.  They get in the playoff as a 10 seed.  They then beat #8 and so on and end up winning, maybe a couple games with considerable luck.  Would the polls bump them from 8 all the way to 1?  Probably.

Yeah, I can't contrive even a pretty unlikely scenario.

MaximumSam

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Re: Rich get richer
« Reply #340 on: September 13, 2023, 01:56:40 PM »
Given that for every school and every conference, football is the primary revenue driver by a huge margin and is used to support all of the other sports, then the amount of money associated with that playoff spot would have to equal or exceed the amount of money the B1G is paying to Purdue right now.  Because I highly doubt that the Purdue athletic department is running in the black.  Every dime that comes in, is spent on the annual athletic budget.

But if the above were true, then it would also mean that an Ohio State that makes the playoff, would not only be getting that huge playoff money, but they'd also still be getting their share of the B1G contract money.  So they'd be making something like double what Purdue is getting.  No school is going to make that move.

As always, the main sticking point is that we're not just talking about football teams here.  We're talking about entire athletic departments that support 10-20 other sports, none of which make enough money to prop up the rest.
Yeah but the downside of conference sharing is that teams like Ohio State share revenue with teams like Purdue. That was exactly the reason Oklahoma and Texas left the Big 12, because they didn't want to share money when they could join a different conference and make up a bigger share. Leaving things the way they are actively encourages the OSU's and Alabamas to join a super conference. It's almost inevitable - we are effectively down to two super conferences by next year now. So like it or not, schools will be facing tough decisions. 

Cincydawg

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Re: Rich get richer
« Reply #341 on: September 13, 2023, 01:58:22 PM »
If we're headed to two "real" super conferences with no Vandys or Purdues or NWs or whoevers, I will probably lose interest.

MaximumSam

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Re: Rich get richer
« Reply #342 on: September 13, 2023, 02:01:10 PM »
One more thing, and it's one that I think fans of helmet teams fail to understand.

You've spent your entire fandom thinking about national championships. That's what you play for.

So you think about a team like Purdue and assume our goal is to make it into a playoff where we challenge for a national title.

But that's not it. Fans of non-helmet teams largely did NOT think about national championships. Honestly I rarely cared about the MNC at all. Going 8-4 or 9-3 was a successful year. Maybe having a good enough year to have a NYD bowl. Maybe beating Notre Dame (and definitely beating the Hoosiers). We had things to play for that were NOT the NC.

Or, at least we used to. Now with a 12-team playoff, the playoff is all that matters. And it only matters to about a dozen teams at the top of the sport who can recruit and have legit NC aspirations. Of which mine is not one, so the sport no longer matters to me.
Well, I understand that, but I think it leads to the opposite conclusion. Purdue may have never had legit national championship aspirations, but could realistically play in the Rose Bowl. There was a reward for having a great season. Now, even though they played in the Big Ten championship as recently as this past season, there isn't much reward, because they were never making the playoffs. If you win the Big Ten and make the playoffs, then Purdue has something to play for until they are mathematically eliminated.

Essentially, I find it hard to believe Purdue fans wouldn't find making the playoffs exciting, even if they don't expect to win a championship. It makes it so having a good season is meaningful again. 

MaximumSam

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Re: Rich get richer
« Reply #343 on: September 13, 2023, 02:06:47 PM »
Exactly. It's like asking "but what if a 16-seed won the NCAA Tournament?" After all, if they can knock of a 1 seed (which has happened twice now), they can beat anyone in the field, right?

Theoretically, it can happen. Realistically, it's impossible.

So it's not really worth thinking about.
San Diego State and Florida Atlantic will never play in the Final Four. Laughable to even think of it.

utee94

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Re: Rich get richer
« Reply #344 on: September 13, 2023, 02:45:18 PM »
Yeah but the downside of conference sharing is that teams like Ohio State share revenue with teams like Purdue. That was exactly the reason Oklahoma and Texas left the Big 12, because they didn't want to share money when they could join a different conference and make up a bigger share. Leaving things the way they are actively encourages the OSU's and Alabamas to join a super conference. It's almost inevitable - we are effectively down to two super conferences by next year now. So like it or not, schools will be facing tough decisions.

This isn't exactly true, although the end result is the same.

Not speaking for OU, but from the Texas perspective, sharing the money wasn't the problem.  The problem was simply bringing in FAR less revenue, than any team in the B1G or SEC.  When the disparity was $15-$20M per year, Texas was fine with staying in the B12, because the value of having a simpler, more regional conference made it worthwhile.

But then a couple of years ago, the projections for the B1G and SEC contracts absolutely blew up.  Distributions of $80M-$100M per school were being tossed around, and compared to $40M or $45M in the B12, that disparity just couldn't be ignored.  If Texas had ANY hope to keep up with the Ohio States and Michigans and Alabamas and Georgias, then the only option was to join one of their conferences.  Heck, if Texas wanted to keep up with Northwestern and Vanderbilt, the choice was still the same.  It just became an impossible situation and so the move was inevitable.

medinabuckeye1

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Re: Rich get richer
« Reply #345 on: September 13, 2023, 03:50:13 PM »
San Diego State and Florida Atlantic will never play in the Final Four. Laughable to even think of it.
I'm pretty sure they weren't 16 seeds.

As @betarhoalphadelta pointed out, the 16-seeds now have two upsets of #1 so they are 2-150 in the opening round and 0-2 in the second round despite both #16's to reach the second round getting relatively easier #9's instead of #8's.

MaximumSam

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Re: Rich get richer
« Reply #346 on: September 13, 2023, 03:54:47 PM »
I'm pretty sure they weren't 16 seeds.
No, but they were lower than whatever the 12th team would be in a college football playoff.

MrNubbz

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Re: Rich get richer
« Reply #347 on: September 13, 2023, 04:08:50 PM »
If we're headed to two "real" super conferences with no Vandys or Purdues or NWs or whoevers, I will probably lose interest.
Those conferences might actually have more competitive contests which would draw ratings - IMO
"Let us endeavor so to live - that when we come to die even the undertaker will be sorry." - Mark Twain

Cincydawg

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Re: Rich get richer
« Reply #348 on: September 13, 2023, 04:25:40 PM »
Sure, they probably would, just not me probably.  I'm sure folks would love to see a slate that was OSU/Alabama/Texas ... with no Purdues or Vandys.  They can view that on Sundays now.  And they do.

(I suspect betting is at the core of NFL popularity, as well as NBA/MLB/etc.)


medinabuckeye1

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Re: Rich get richer
« Reply #349 on: September 13, 2023, 04:39:06 PM »
(I suspect betting is at the core of NFL popularity, as well as NBA/MLB/etc.)
Fantasy leagues too. If you are in one you end up with a rooting interest in a whole lot of NFL games that you otherwise wouldn't care about. 

 

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