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Topic: Rich get richer

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OrangeAfroMan

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Re: Rich get richer
« Reply #140 on: September 05, 2023, 10:40:31 PM »
hey i'd much rather go to Miami or New Orleans for a weekend trip than to Pasadena. don't have to sell me on that.
Then you are not a true B1G fan.
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

Gigem

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Re: Rich get richer
« Reply #141 on: September 05, 2023, 10:44:43 PM »
The 70s:
Big Ten:  UM and/or OSU all 10 years, with MSU a share 1 season
SEC:  Bama 8 out of 10 years
SWC:  Texas 6, with UH and Ark getting a pair each
Big 8:  UNL or OU all 10 years, shared with others in '76
PAC-8:  USC 6, Stanford 2
.
The whole decade was an annual blueblood convention in the top 10 each year.  Add to that ND being a top 15 team in 8 of the 10 years, with 2 NCs.....and yeah. 
.
The problem with what may transpire now is that all those big-boy programs separate, but don't have the have-nots to fatten up on.  They'll all feast on each other and it will create a new bell curve, with some pretty sexy programs on the wrong end.
I could have sworn A&M won the SWC in ‘75. In fact many old timers decry that we were ranked #1, and they delayed our game at Arky for TV. We lost big.  

OrangeAfroMan

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Re: Rich get richer
« Reply #142 on: September 05, 2023, 11:51:46 PM »
Those numbers I listed just happen to add up to 10.  Sorry, they include shared titles, of which A&M had in '75.  3-way tie with Arky and UT.
.
75 and 76 A&M were great teams.  Woodard was a freakin' beast.
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

FearlessF

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Re: Rich get richer
« Reply #143 on: September 06, 2023, 12:01:15 AM »
I get it, but it was kinda dumb.....speaking about the RB in hushed tones, marveling at the San Gabriels and getting turned on by a parade with one breath and then bitching about having to play in the Orange Bowl or Sugar Bowl as an away game in the next breath.
Maybe it's 2 diff fanbases, but the dichotomy is/was vast.  Maybe Big 8 teams needed an attitude adjustment.  Snorting coke off a dance club toilet seat doesn't rival the Tournament of Roses parade?!?
2 different fan bases but the Big Ten fans bitched about playing an away game vs the PAC in Pasadena

not sure there was much talk about the better parade
mostly about the better matchup on the gridiron
the Cocaines playing on their home field were mostly responsible for the toilet seat issues
"Courage; Generosity; Fairness; Honor; In these are the true awards of manly sport."

847badgerfan

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Re: Rich get richer
« Reply #144 on: September 06, 2023, 07:54:05 AM »
Then you are not a true B1G fan.
We all know it's over. Time to find something new to pick about here.
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medinabuckeye1

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Re: Rich get richer
« Reply #145 on: September 06, 2023, 10:40:46 AM »
The 70s:
Big Ten:  UM and/or OSU all 10 years, with MSU a share 1 season
SEC:  Bama 8 out of 10 years
SWC:  Texas 6, with UH and Ark getting a pair each
Big 8:  UNL or OU all 10 years, shared with others in '76
PAC-8:  USC 6, Stanford 2.

The whole decade was an annual blueblood convention in the top 10 each year.  Add to that ND being a top 15 team in 8 of the 10 years, with 2 NCs.....and yeah. 
Thank you for adding the other conferences.  I had already listed the Big Ten and stated that the others were similar but didn't take the time to get the data.  

What I think has changed here is that with the advent of a four (soon-to-be 12) team playoff, the non-helmets no longer even have the ability to impact the race.  Looking at the 1970's:
1970:
Nebraska won at 11-0-1 (tie was at USC).  Notre Dame, Texas, Tennessee, Ohio State, and Michigan each finished with one loss so they would likely have won the NC but for that loss:
  • Notre Dame's loss was to USC
  • Texas' loss was to Notre Dame
  • Tennessee's loss was to Auburn
  • Ohio State's loss was to Stanford
  • Michigan's loss was to Ohio State
Auburn and Stanford are really the only non-helmets there but their wins over Tennessee and Ohio State did prevent the Volunteers and Buckeyes from winning the NC.  

1971:
Nebraska won it at 13-0.  Oklahoma, Alabama, Penn State, Michigan, and Georgia each finished with one loss so they at least might have shared the title but for that loss:
  • Oklahoma's loss was to Nebraska
  • Alabama's loss was to Nebraska
  • Penn State's loss was to Tennessee
  • Michigan's loss was to Stanford
  • Georgia's loss was to Auburn
So again, Auburn and Stanford each had NC altering wins.  BTW, Nebraska was a monster that year they beat the final #2, #3, and #4.  

1972:
USC won it at 12-0.  Oklahoma, Texas, and Michigan each finished with one loss so they at least might have shared the title but for that loss:
  • Oklahoma's loss was to Colorado
  • Texas' loss was to Oklahoma
  • Michigan's loss was to Ohio State
Colorado had a NC altering win.  

1973:
Notre Dame won it at 11-0.  Ohio State and Michigan both finished 10-0-1 after tying each other.  Alabama (ND) finished with one loss.  

1974:
Oklahoma won it at 11-0.  USC finished 10-1-1.  Michigan and Alabama both finished with one loss so they at least might have shared the title but for that loss:
  • Michigan's loss was to Ohio State
  • Alabama's loss was to Notre Dame
1975:
Oklahoma won it at 11-1 after beating Michigan in the Orange Bowl.  Note to @Gigem , this was Michigan's first ever bowl game other than the Rose Bowl.  Oklahoma's loss was to a mediocre Kansas team and very nearly cost them the NC.  They went into the bowls #3 behind tOSU and aTm but luckily for them the Buckeyes and Aggies lost the Rose and Liberty Bowls.  Alabama finished with only one loss, to Missouri.  

This season may be the best example of what could happen.  Wins by Kansas (OU), Mizzou (Bama) and UCLA (tOSU) had a humongous impact on the NC race.  

As a Buckeye fan I feel obligated to point out that Ohio State's loss to (final) #5 UCLA in SoCal after having beaten UCLA earlier in the season was MUCH better than Oklahoma's loss to a Kansas team that finished 7-5 and unranked or Bama's loss to a Mizzou team that finished 6-5 and unranked.  This was Woody's last great team and his last win over Michigan.  It has long been speculated that IF he had won the NC he'd have retired on top.  

1976:
Pitt won it at 12-0.  USC finished with only one loss, to Mizzou.  Thus, for the second consecutive year Mizzou was a mediocre team but managed to pull of a huge upset win that had a major impact on the NC race.  

1977:
Notre Dame won it at 11-1.  Bama, Arkansas, Texas, Penn State, and Kentucky each finished with one loss.  
  • Alabama's loss was to Nebraska
  • Arkansas' loss was to Texas
  • Texas' loss was to Notre Dame
  • Penn State's loss was to Kentucky
  • Kentucky's loss was to Baylor.  
Kentucky and Baylor were both non-helmets who had NC altering wins.  Also, Notre Dame's loss was an early season loss to a bad Ole Miss team in Jackson, Mississippi so you can add the Rebels to the list of non-helmets who impacted the race.  Notre Dame went into the bowls at #5 but they took out #1 Texas in the Cotton Bowl and meanwhile #2 OU lost to Arkansas (Orange) and #4 Michigan lost to Washington (Rose).  #3 Bama beat #9 tOSU (Sugar) in Ohio State's first non-Rose Bowl but that wasn't enough to keep them ahead of the Irish who knocked off #1.  

1978:
Alabama won it at 11-1 after beating prior #1 PSU (Sugar).  USC, Oklahoma, Penn State, and Clemson each finished with one loss:
  • USC's loss was to ASU in ASU's first year in the PAC10 which had been the PAC8 up through 1977
  • Oklahoma's loss was to Nebraska
  • Penn State's loss was to Bama
  • Clemson's loss was to Georgia
ASU had an NC altering win.  

1979:
Alabama won it at 12-0.  USC finished second at 11-0-1.  Oklahoma, Ohio State, Houston, Florida State, and Pitt each finished with one loss.  
  • USC's tie was with a .500 Stanford team.  
  • Oklahoma's loss was to Texas
  • Ohio State's loss was to USC
  • Houston's loss was to Texas
  • Florida State's loss was to Oklahoma
  • Pitt's loss was to North Carolina
Stanford and North Carolina were non-helmets but they had NC altering wins.  

It didn't happen often but it DID happen.  A non-helmet *COULD* impact that NC race and even the eventual winner.  Non-helmet fans like @utee94 's TxTech friend, @betarhoalphadelta , and @ELA rooted for teams that could and sometimes did have a MAJOR impact on the NC race.  For those three schools:
Texas Tech:
youtube.com/watch?v=TESavSr2Cew
Michael Crabtree's TD had a HUMONGOUS impact on the NC race.  TxTech wasn't really all that good.  They got absolutely smoked in Norman and drilled in the Cotton Bowl by an SEC also-ran but on one night at home against the Longhorns they hit the dream.  Ultimately Texas, Oklahoma, and TxTech tied for the B12-S Championship and Oklahoma won that on a controversial tiebreaker which sent the Sooners to an easy win over Mizzou in the B12CG and on to the BCSNCG where they lost to Florida thus giving the Gators the 2008 NC.  If TxTech hadn't upset the Longhorns, the Longhorns would have beaten the Tigers and played the Gators and who knows, they might have won.  

Purdue:
The 2018 Boilermakers weren't very good.  They finished below .500 but in late October they showed up for a home game against the Buckeyes and looked like a powerhouse.  That Buckeye squad finished just outside of the CFP and won a consolation Rose Bowl to finish 13-1.  If Purdue hadn't upset the Buckeyes, the Buckeyes would have obviously been in the CFP at 13-0 and who knows, they might have won.  

Michigan State:
The 2015 Spartans probably weren't as good as their 12-2 final record.  I say that because both losses were bad and because they had multiple close wins over bad and mediocre teams.  The Nebraska loss was bad because Nebraska was bad (6-7) while the Alabama loss was bad because it was a 38-0 shutout.  Michigan state also beat Purdue (2-10), Rutgers (4-8), Michigan (10-3), Ohio State (12-1), and Iowa (12-2) by one score each.  That said, on a cold November afternoon in Columbus they stymied the vaunted Ohio State offense.  That Ohio State team averaged 36 ppg but only put up 14 against the Spartans.  If Michigan State hadn't upset the Buckeyes, the Buckeyes would have gone to Indy to take out the Hawkeyes then on to the CFP and who knows, they might have won.  

utee94

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Re: Rich get richer
« Reply #146 on: September 06, 2023, 10:57:43 AM »
Thank you for adding the other conferences.  I had already listed the Big Ten and stated that the others were similar but didn't take the time to get the data. 

What I think has changed here is that with the advent of a four (soon-to-be 12) team playoff, the non-helmets no longer even have the ability to impact the race.  Looking at the 1970's:
1970:
Nebraska won at 11-0-1 (tie was at USC).  Notre Dame, Texas, Tennessee, Ohio State, and Michigan each finished with one loss so they would likely have won the NC but for that loss:
  • Notre Dame's loss was to USC
  • Texas' loss was to Notre Dame
  • Tennessee's loss was to Auburn
  • Ohio State's loss was to Stanford
  • Michigan's loss was to Ohio State
Auburn and Stanford are really the only non-helmets there but their wins over Tennessee and Ohio State did prevent the Volunteers and Buckeyes from winning the NC. 


Nice summary, just one minor correction.  In 1970, Texas actually did win the coaches' poll national championship, because at the time the coaches' poll was still awarding its MNC before the bowl games. 

betarhoalphadelta

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Re: Rich get richer
« Reply #147 on: September 06, 2023, 11:30:12 AM »
I know this might be difficult for a helmet fan to understand... But no, we plebes don't define our seasons solely based upon the ability to ruin yours. Even though my team has proudly worn the "Spoilermakers" moniker from time to time, we also want something to play for beyond spoiling your fun. 

In the old setup, a school like Purdue had a chance at a conference championship, and a chance at a trip to a Rose Bowl that meant something. A Rose Bowl that, while for us wouldn't have NC implications, would be the sort of game that a national audience tuned in to simply because it was the Rose Bowl, the granddaddy of them all. It was a destination, one that any team in the B1G was proud to make it to. 

The difference now is that with an 18-team conference and CCG, it's unlikely a team like Purdue will ever even appear in a CCG much less have a chance to win it. And now, even if Purdue got into some sort of crazy scenario where they had a dream season, appeared in the CFP, and their game was held at the Rose Bowl, it is no longer a destination. It's merely a stepping stone (where they'd likely get eliminated of course) with zero standalone value as a game. It's both almost unattainable in the new system, but at the same time meaningless for a team like Purdue if they actually do attain it. 

In 2018 we enjoyed improbably beating a really good team, under the lights, with much of the country watching and collectively asking themselves "WTF is happening???" Yeah, it derailed your CFP hopes that year, but it was OUR win that we cheered, not YOUR loss. 

betarhoalphadelta

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Re: Rich get richer
« Reply #148 on: September 06, 2023, 11:31:03 AM »
(On that front, I'll bet a lot of the nation cheered your loss, especially fans of TTUN, but Purdue fans cheered our win more.)

utee94

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Re: Rich get richer
« Reply #149 on: September 06, 2023, 11:34:55 AM »
Oh look everybody, a Purdue fan just had a take.

How cute!

Look at the cute little Boilermaker.  Do you think he'll bark when we say, "Speak!"?

Gigem

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Re: Rich get richer
« Reply #150 on: September 06, 2023, 11:48:42 AM »
Thank you for adding the other conferences.  I had already listed the Big Ten and stated that the others were similar but didn't take the time to get the data. 

What I think has changed here is that with the advent of a four (soon-to-be 12) team playoff, the non-helmets no longer even have the ability to impact the race.  Looking at the 1970's:
1970:
Nebraska won at 11-0-1 (tie was at USC).  Notre Dame, Texas, Tennessee, Ohio State, and Michigan each finished with one loss so they would likely have won the NC but for that loss:
  • Notre Dame's loss was to USC
  • Texas' loss was to Notre Dame
  • Tennessee's loss was to Auburn
  • Ohio State's loss was to Stanford
  • Michigan's loss was to Ohio State
Auburn and Stanford are really the only non-helmets there but their wins over Tennessee and Ohio State did prevent the Volunteers and Buckeyes from winning the NC. 

1971:
Nebraska won it at 13-0.  Oklahoma, Alabama, Penn State, Michigan, and Georgia each finished with one loss so they at least might have shared the title but for that loss:
  • Oklahoma's loss was to Nebraska
  • Alabama's loss was to Nebraska
  • Penn State's loss was to Tennessee
  • Michigan's loss was to Stanford
  • Georgia's loss was to Auburn
So again, Auburn and Stanford each had NC altering wins.  BTW, Nebraska was a monster that year they beat the final #2, #3, and #4. 

1972:
USC won it at 12-0.  Oklahoma, Texas, and Michigan each finished with one loss so they at least might have shared the title but for that loss:
  • Oklahoma's loss was to Colorado
  • Texas' loss was to Oklahoma
  • Michigan's loss was to Ohio State
Colorado had a NC altering win. 

1973:
Notre Dame won it at 11-0.  Ohio State and Michigan both finished 10-0-1 after tying each other.  Alabama (ND) finished with one loss. 

1974:
Oklahoma won it at 11-0.  USC finished 10-1-1.  Michigan and Alabama both finished with one loss so they at least might have shared the title but for that loss:
  • Michigan's loss was to Ohio State
  • Alabama's loss was to Notre Dame
1975:
Oklahoma won it at 11-1 after beating Michigan in the Orange Bowl.  Note to @Gigem , this was Michigan's first ever bowl game other than the Rose Bowl.  Oklahoma's loss was to a mediocre Kansas team and very nearly cost them the NC.  They went into the bowls #3 behind tOSU and aTm but luckily for them the Buckeyes and Aggies lost the Rose and Liberty Bowls.  Alabama finished with only one loss, to Missouri. 

This season may be the best example of what could happen.  Wins by Kansas (OU), Mizzou (Bama) and UCLA (tOSU) had a humongous impact on the NC race. 

As a Buckeye fan I feel obligated to point out that Ohio State's loss to (final) #5 UCLA in SoCal after having beaten UCLA earlier in the season was MUCH better than Oklahoma's loss to a Kansas team that finished 7-5 and unranked or Bama's loss to a Mizzou team that finished 6-5 and unranked.  This was Woody's last great team and his last win over Michigan.  It has long been speculated that IF he had won the NC he'd have retired on top. 

1976:
Pitt won it at 12-0.  USC finished with only one loss, to Mizzou.  Thus, for the second consecutive year Mizzou was a mediocre team but managed to pull of a huge upset win that had a major impact on the NC race. 

1977:
Notre Dame won it at 11-1.  Bama, Arkansas, Texas, Penn State, and Kentucky each finished with one loss. 
  • Alabama's loss was to Nebraska
  • Arkansas' loss was to Texas
  • Texas' loss was to Notre Dame
  • Penn State's loss was to Kentucky
  • Kentucky's loss was to Baylor. 
Kentucky and Baylor were both non-helmets who had NC altering wins.  Also, Notre Dame's loss was an early season loss to a bad Ole Miss team in Jackson, Mississippi so you can add the Rebels to the list of non-helmets who impacted the race.  Notre Dame went into the bowls at #5 but they took out #1 Texas in the Cotton Bowl and meanwhile #2 OU lost to Arkansas (Orange) and #4 Michigan lost to Washington (Rose).  #3 Bama beat #9 tOSU (Sugar) in Ohio State's first non-Rose Bowl but that wasn't enough to keep them ahead of the Irish who knocked off #1. 

1978:
Alabama won it at 11-1 after beating prior #1 PSU (Sugar).  USC, Oklahoma, Penn State, and Clemson each finished with one loss:
  • USC's loss was to ASU in ASU's first year in the PAC10 which had been the PAC8 up through 1977
  • Oklahoma's loss was to Nebraska
  • Penn State's loss was to Bama
  • Clemson's loss was to Georgia
ASU had an NC altering win. 

1979:
Alabama won it at 12-0.  USC finished second at 11-0-1.  Oklahoma, Ohio State, Houston, Florida State, and Pitt each finished with one loss. 
  • USC's tie was with a .500 Stanford team. 
  • Oklahoma's loss was to Texas
  • Ohio State's loss was to USC
  • Houston's loss was to Texas
  • Florida State's loss was to Oklahoma
  • Pitt's loss was to North Carolina
Stanford and North Carolina were non-helmets but they had NC altering wins. 

It didn't happen often but it DID happen.  A non-helmet *COULD* impact that NC race and even the eventual winner.  Non-helmet fans like @utee94 's TxTech friend, @betarhoalphadelta , and @ELA rooted for teams that could and sometimes did have a MAJOR impact on the NC race.  For those three schools:
Texas Tech:
youtube.com/watch?v=TESavSr2Cew
Michael Crabtree's TD had a HUMONGOUS impact on the NC race.  TxTech wasn't really all that good.  They got absolutely smoked in Norman and drilled in the Cotton Bowl by an SEC also-ran but on one night at home against the Longhorns they hit the dream.  Ultimately Texas, Oklahoma, and TxTech tied for the B12-S Championship and Oklahoma won that on a controversial tiebreaker which sent the Sooners to an easy win over Mizzou in the B12CG and on to the BCSNCG where they lost to Florida thus giving the Gators the 2008 NC.  If TxTech hadn't upset the Longhorns, the Longhorns would have beaten the Tigers and played the Gators and who knows, they might have won. 

Purdue:
The 2018 Boilermakers weren't very good.  They finished below .500 but in late October they showed up for a home game against the Buckeyes and looked like a powerhouse.  That Buckeye squad finished just outside of the CFP and won a consolation Rose Bowl to finish 13-1.  If Purdue hadn't upset the Buckeyes, the Buckeyes would have obviously been in the CFP at 13-0 and who knows, they might have won. 

Michigan State:
The 2015 Spartans probably weren't as good as their 12-2 final record.  I say that because both losses were bad and because they had multiple close wins over bad and mediocre teams.  The Nebraska loss was bad because Nebraska was bad (6-7) while the Alabama loss was bad because it was a 38-0 shutout.  Michigan state also beat Purdue (2-10), Rutgers (4-8), Michigan (10-3), Ohio State (12-1), and Iowa (12-2) by one score each.  That said, on a cold November afternoon in Columbus they stymied the vaunted Ohio State offense.  That Ohio State team averaged 36 ppg but only put up 14 against the Spartans.  If Michigan State hadn't upset the Buckeyes, the Buckeyes would have gone to Indy to take out the Hawkeyes then on to the CFP and who knows, they might have won. 
You just posted a lot of data about how the non-helmet teams could impact the MNC, but under the new system the non-helmets actually can play for the title.  You know, #4-12, mostly consisting of non-helmet teams, many of whom will have 2-3 losses, sometimes close losses that could've went either way. 

I find that all of this drivel is mostly coming from the fans of the helmet teams.  I swear, the old system was like a boxing match where 90% of the matches are decided by judges, not a KO.  Nothing more than a beauty pageant where the helmet teams are always given the benefit of the doubt.  I don't like them but TCU played their way into the championship game over Michigan, if it was up to the playoff committee they would've never been given the chance.  In 1998 KSU was screwed over the chance to play for a title because they were a non-helmet team and they lost a close game to a really good A&M team, whereas OU was giftwrapped the chance to play in the 2003 CG after losing to KSU in that title game.  

Imagine how strange it would be for there to be two superbowl champions, or two world series champs.  

I'm always in favor of settling it on the field.  The best team wins.  One true champion, and if the helmets prevail then so be it.  

Gigem

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Re: Rich get richer
« Reply #151 on: September 06, 2023, 12:08:09 PM »
One more thing to add here.  Us non-helmet teams know that almost always there is nothing to play for.  We're not going to get into the system over a Bama, Ohio St, or USC unless everything goes absolutely perfectly.  We have to be undefeated, win by 2 TD every game, beat the pulp out of bad teams, and have a couple of extra special players on the roster for show.  So it's almost kind of a self-fulfilling prophecy when hardly no helmet teams make the big show because even helmet teams rarely have perfect seasons.  The 4 team playoff was nothing more than giving the other two helmets a chance most of the time.  

But with this new format almost everybody has a fair shot at making something happen.  Say a hot A&M team with a generational player at QB comes in late in the season on fire, but has an early loss to a good program before they got hot and one more loss to a good LSU team that could have went either way.  That team is playing for something at the end of the season.  Even the helmet teams will have something to play for if they're good but not great but perhaps they haven't fully developed by the end of the season.  

I cannot emphasize this enough.  Let them settle it on the field, you know like they do in every other sport.  

betarhoalphadelta

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Re: Rich get richer
« Reply #152 on: September 06, 2023, 12:09:54 PM »
You just posted a lot of data about how the non-helmet teams could impact the MNC, but under the new system the non-helmets actually can play for the title.  You know, #4-12, mostly consisting of non-helmet teams, many of whom will have 2-3 losses, sometimes close losses that could've went either way. 
That is true. But teams 5-12 will have to win 4 consecutive games against the best of the best to win that title. 

Is it possible? Yes. But CFB doesn't have the same level of parity as the NFL where a 9-7 wild card team can go on a run and beat the 18-0 Patriots to win the Super Bowl. 

IMHO it's harder for a non-helmet to win the title in the new system than the old. 

And even so, as a fan of Purdue I have ruled out the title from my mental calculation anyway... All I want is the chance at winning the conference and facing the PAC champ in the Rose Bowl. The former is now almost assuredly unlikely with an 18-team conference and CCG, and the latter is now gone because the PAC is dead. 

Hence (amongst so many reasons) why CFB is now an afterthought in my life--something I might put on the TV as background if I'm bored Saturday and there's nothing else on, but not something that I'm ever upset to miss. 

847badgerfan

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Re: Rich get richer
« Reply #153 on: September 06, 2023, 12:26:47 PM »
And then there is this:

Mit Winter on X: "This article discusses the possibility of 50 college football teams joining a new league run by the NFL, Fox, and Disney. I think something like this is likely to happen. When a court or the NLRB declares that some college athletes are employees it will push things this way. https://t.co/n5F7tHnJZw" / X (twitter.com)
Mit Winter on X: "This article discusses the possibility of 50 college football teams joining a new league run by the NFL, Fox, and Disney. I think something like this is likely to happen. When a court or the NLRB declares that some college athletes are employees it will push things this way. https://t.co/n5F7tHnJZw" / X (twitter.com)

U RAH RAH! WIS CON SIN!

 

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