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Topic: Retirement / What am I working for?
(Read 38246 times)

Gigem · « **Reply #406 on:** April 03, 2025, 01:44:36 PM »

Quote from: MikeDeTiger on April 03, 2025, 11:28:55 AM

My wife's 401k is Roth, though she has the option for either. I told her to do Roth, because I differ from you in that I do count on taxes to be worse in the future, or at least a thing I'd rather not deal with in retirement. We're more capable of getting taxed on higher income now than I think we will be in our waning years, thus.....Roth.

I have a Roth IRA, and one thing that hasn't been brought up in this thread is the silly much lower annual cap on IRA contributions compared to 401k's. I don't understand why that is at all. Penalizing self-employed people is generally a bad thing.

I currently work for a public university, so I technically work for the state. We have the TRS retirement plan which vests at a higher percentage over time, with a 5 year minimum. There's also an option to additionally invest in something else--I forget what it's called--which is like a 401k, but it's the public/state version so it's not called a 401k. I don't make a whole lot, so I don't put much into that. The TRS is not optional, that's deducted from my check automatically.

My dilemma right now is, I don't overly care for this job, for a number of reasons. If I had the chance, I'd most likely jump to something else. Due to the 5-yr minimum on the TRS thing, if I do leave within 5 years, every deduction from my check that's going to TRS is just money I pissed away. One option is to stay for at least 5 years. The downside there is I'm not getting any younger, and age discrimination might be illegal, nevertheless it's a thing in any sort of tech-adjacent field. It will only be worse in 4.5 more years. Another option is to leave and do something else (if I even had the chance), but the downside there is every day I work here is more $ I've put into TRS which I'll never see any benefit from if I don't stay here at least 5 years, so the longer I work here, it's almost like I'm more compelled to at least hit that mark.

Put a number on the amount in the TRS, and then put a number on how much you would receive in the future. I'd estimate you to be in your early to mid 40's judging by conversations we've had on this board. Maybe very late 30's, no younger than 38. If you say you don't make much, like less than $85,000 per year, and you've only worked there for say 2 years then I'm guessing you have about $15-$20,000 in there at the most. I'm guessing it's probably less than $10K. To that, I'd say forget the money, your time is far more valuable. Just make sure that whatever you do next is worthwhile.

I actually did something opposite. I took a job that pays much less, so I could have a better work-life balance. No more weekend work, WFH occasionally, much less stress, and a much better quality of life. Luckily, I had saved a bunch in my 401, and they have since frozen our pension so my HC3YA will never get better or matter.

Gigem · « **Reply #407 on:** April 03, 2025, 01:47:59 PM »

Wait, I just read you have 4.5 years to make 5 years. So you're actually talking about very little money at best. If you don't like your job now, just wait 4.5 more years. You'll really dislike it then !

MikeDeTiger · « **Reply #408 on:** April 03, 2025, 02:31:10 PM »

Quote from: Gigem on April 03, 2025, 01:44:36 PM

Put a number on the amount in the TRS, and then put a number on how much you would receive in the future. I'd estimate you to be in your early to mid 40's judging by conversations we've had on this board. Maybe very late 30's, no younger than 38. If you say you don't make much, like less than $85,000 per year, and you've only worked there for say 2 years then I'm guessing you have about $15-$20,000 in there at the most. I'm guessing it's probably less than $10K. To that, I'd say forget the money, your time is far more valuable. Just make sure that whatever you do next is worthwhile.

lolz, I'd kill 2 of my co-workers to make $85k/yr. When I say I don't make much, believe me.

I'm 46, I think. I stopped counting after 27.

I'm more or less with you. I'm mainly talking about once I've been here longer, because that's the most likely scenario if I ever have the chance to leave. I took this job after I'd been out of school for a year and gotten no other job offers, which is the main reason I took it. I needed something, and this was it. Based on my year+ of job searching, I'm not likely to get what I'm looking for any time soon, if ever.

MikeDeTiger · « **Reply #409 on:** April 03, 2025, 02:45:28 PM »

Quote from: Gigem on April 03, 2025, 01:47:59 PM

Wait, I just read you have 4.5 years to make 5 years. So you're actually talking about very little money at best. If you don't like your job now, just wait 4.5 more years. You'll really dislike it then !

My job dissatisfaction may well be as high as it's going to be. The things I don't like about it can't really get any worse. I don't mind the job itself, other than the commute and low pay, which are factors that can't really devolve over time. I'd rather do something more interesting and use my degree, but that also can't get any worse what I'm doing right now.

And there's other things to consider. I have health problems (which is why the commute kills me.....I got a degree in something I thought I had a legit shot at working from home, but....) and the state insurance is insanely good. Like, our insurance plan doesn't exist in the real world. No deductible and the state pays my premiums. That wouldn't matter so much for someone who won't access health care very much, however I am a person who is likely to (and currently does) access health care frequently. Said health problems also wiped me out for my entire 30's, including retirement. So when I finally went back to work it was basically starting over. Time is obviously the most important component of retirement investing, and I don't have it. It could be that a state pension is the way to go, although it'd be some percentage of a very low salary.

So there's reasons to stick around, but reasons to do something else for sure, if I had the chance. If the pay were substantially better, I'm willing and able to keep the same lifestyle/spending habits and put the rest of it away, which might outweigh the drawbacks.

But yeah, even if I wind up coughing up $5000 worth of deductibles every year in surgeries and treatments and pay a high premium, it wouldn't take a huge salary to offset that. I'd almost certainly do something else if I could.

Gigem · « **Reply #410 on:** April 03, 2025, 02:50:17 PM »

Quote from: MikeDeTiger on April 03, 2025, 02:31:10 PM

lolz, I'd kill 2 of my co-workers to make $85k/yr. When I say I don't make much, believe me.

I'm 46, I think. I stopped counting after 27.

I'm more or less with you. I'm mainly talking about once I've been here longer, because that's the most likely scenario if I ever have the chance to leave. I took this job after I'd been out of school for a year and gotten no other job offers, which is the main reason I took it. I needed something, and this was it. Based on my year+ of job searching, I'm not likely to get what I'm looking for any time soon, if ever.

Tough call for sure. I take it you kinda re-booted your career or at least tried to? I was reading an article in the local newspaper a few days ago that listed the starting salaries of teachers in the local school districts and they were all around $57-62K and I thought that wasn't as bad as I thought. The good part about being an employee of the state/government is that I always heard they have good benefits and retirement. Good health insurance and health insurance benefits, time off, holidays and job stability. The bad part is the pay is not great until you get into the upper levels, and even then it's not good.

MikeDeTiger · « **Reply #411 on:** April 03, 2025, 03:53:25 PM »

Yeah, it was a reboot. In my 20's I worked in the oil and gas industry, and while the job I did was white collar, I can't physically do it anymore, and probably will never be able to. I certainly can't handle the constant travel it required. Things were so bad in my 30's I mostly didn't work. Wife eventually got me a job at her clinic which really only amounted to something akin to her getting a raise, household wise. I heard about how hot data science careers were supposed to be for the next 20 years so I applied to an online master's degree program that advertised itself as a good program for people with no background in programming. They actually did a good job with that, but while there are a ton of those WFH jobs advertised, I think I deluded myself as far as the likelihood of getting a job with no previous experience. Probably those WFH jobs are given to people who have done it for a while. It didn't help that just as I was graduating, the FAANG companies (or MANGA, if you prefer) had just laid off something like 70% of their data analysts and data scientists, flooding the market with a bunch of more-experienced, more qualified people than me, all fighting for the same desirable WFH jobs. Unfortunately, my local city just doesn't have that industry.

My salary now is almost exactly the same as what I started out in the O&G industry 20+ years ago.....except that now the price of everything has 20+ years worth of inflation. And, in that old job, raises were substantial and came quickly if you proved you were good at what you do, which I did. Even after six months on that old job I was making considerably more than I make now. And even more adjusted for inflation. My career is going backwards.

However, I'm grateful for this job, and I hope it doesn't come off otherwise. This job increases our household income to well better than my wife getting a raise or taking a better job. And it's better than the absolute beans I was making at the medical clinic. It's almost exclusively a desk job, so other than the commute, my physical drawbacks don't impede me much. And, should the opportunity present itself, the average starting salary for folks working in my degree field is quite a bit more, so there's something to hope for, anyway.

MikeDeTiger · « **Reply #412 on:** April 07, 2025, 01:09:30 PM »

The trickiest thing about retirement, imo, is knowing when you can, and when you have "enough."

To know when you have "enough," you'd have to know how much longer you're going to live, and we just don't. And you'd have to know (and be able to calculate and account for) the future value of a dollar, and we just don't.

I've learned about a lot of retirement strategies over the years, but they all strike me as a bunch of guessing. There was a version of the 4% rule I read about some time ago that aimed for perpetual funding by reaching a point where your annual expenses are covered by 4% of your retirement funds, such that you expect for the market to earn you 7% on average and inflation to eat up 3% on average, so if you can live on 4%, it should keep supporting you indefinitely. I'm probably not explaining that right, but it's close enough.

The main thing that catches my attention about any version of the 4% rule is, how many people can achieve that? How many people get to a point where they can pay for their life with 4% of their retirement, and how many people can pick the correct number to aim for over the years (because your annual expenses will be a lot more by the time you retire, due to inflation)?

betarhoalphadelta · « **Reply #413 on:** April 07, 2025, 01:31:53 PM »

Quote from: MikeDeTiger on April 07, 2025, 01:09:30 PM

The main thing that catches my attention about any version of the 4% rule is, how many people can achieve that? How many people get to a point where they can pay for their life with 4% of their retirement, and how many people can pick the correct number to aim for over the years (because your annual expenses will be a lot more by the time you retire, due to inflation)?

IMHO the answer should be:

Get as much as you can, as quickly as you can, amassed for retirement. Don't plan for a number. Plan for as much as possible, and then as the number starts getting really big, you can start asking whether you can retire "early" compared to traditional ~65 years old.

IMHO the issue with trying to plan for a certain amount by age 60 or 65 is that you don't give yourself any room for "slack". Whereas if you just save as much as you possibly can starting when you're young, with the hope of retiring earlier than age 60, then you suddenly have that "slack" in case something goes bad.

All that said... Full disclosure: I started too late and I'm now catching up. Which in one way is slightly satisfying since my ex got half, and it was half of nothing. But in another way leaves me with severe anxiety now because I'm 19 years away from age 65 and I don't want to still have to work.

MikeDeTiger · « **Reply #414 on:** April 07, 2025, 01:47:37 PM »

Right, and to be clear, I was approaching that problem academically.

In practice I generally agree.....save as much you reasonably can (while allowing for a life that enjoys some perks now and doesn't just stash away everything for the future), starting as early as you can.

Time is the biggest component by far, and if you start early, one will find big numbers relatively easy to reach. I'm proud and also jealous of my oldest stepson for being so young and diligent with his 401k. He's talked to me to pick my brain about stuff I might know that he doesn't, and I don't mind going over particulars with him, but I told him that, for the most part, he shouldn't stress about it. By the time he's in his early 60's, I expect him to be sitting pretty.

847badgerfan · « **Reply #415 on:** April 07, 2025, 01:51:48 PM »

Quote from: betarhoalphadelta on April 07, 2025, 01:31:53 PM

IMHO the answer should be:

Get as much as you can, as quickly as you can, amassed for retirement. Don't plan for a number. Plan for as much as possible, and then as the number starts getting really big, you can start asking whether you can retire "early" compared to traditional ~65 years old.

IMHO the issue with trying to plan for a certain amount by age 60 or 65 is that you don't give yourself any room for "slack". Whereas if you just save as much as you possibly can starting when you're young, with the hope of retiring earlier than age 60, then you suddenly have that "slack" in case something goes bad.

All that said... Full disclosure: I started too late and I'm now catching up. Which in one way is slightly satisfying since my ex got half, and it was half of nothing. But in another way leaves me with severe anxiety now because I'm 19 years away from age 65 and I don't want to still have to work.

This.

Gigem · « **Reply #416 on:** April 07, 2025, 03:41:11 PM »

Around the time that COVID hit both my boys were about 17 and 13. We had a small boat, but it just didn’t suit us or what we wanted or needed. I started looking for a very specific type and brand but there wasn’t much out there.

Anything that popped up was quickly snatched up. After missing out on a couple of nice boats I took $30k as a loan out of my 401k. I was told how unwise this was and a whole bunch of other negative vibes.

When just the right boat popped up a few weeks later I had cash in hand and jumped on it quick. It made all the difference. We went on to have the best summer and fall fishing ever, and made so many memories I wouldn’t trade it for anything. I have no idea what the original 30k would be worth in 10-20 years. I did pay it back with a small amount of interest but I’m sure the stocks would be worth a lot more by now.

I still own the boat and we are still making memories in it.

Gigem · « **Reply #417 on:** April 22, 2025, 09:59:39 AM »

Welp, I’ve been posting to this thread for awhile talking about how I want to make it to 50 etc but now I’m not really sure I will make it that far. Our company is not doing so hot, they’re restructuring , laying people off, and I really don’t have any work in my department. I honestly expect them to come pick me up any day. It’s funny how this stuff plays out. 8 months until I’m 50.

Good news is that the guy next door ( same job) told them he wanted to retire, he might take the hit instead of me. He’s in his mid to late 50’s.

FearlessF · « **Reply #418 on:** April 22, 2025, 10:03:43 AM »

good luck

Cincydawg · « **Reply #419 on:** April 22, 2025, 10:07:45 AM »

Scary stuff indeed. One reason I chose where I worked instead of other offers was stability of employment, or so I thought. I did get into a situation where my one up managed told us if we didn't pass a certain test of the project we'd all be fired. He was pretty clearly lying, for whatever reason, but it shook me up, I still had kids in HS.

So, first chance, I split from that project for a complete sinecure too invisible to get canned. The project finally did succeed to a degree, and I probably would have benefitted had I stayed, but it seemed too risky to me.

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Topic: Retirement / What am I working for?

Gigem

Re: Retirement / What am I working for?

Gigem

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MikeDeTiger

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MikeDeTiger

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Gigem

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MikeDeTiger

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MikeDeTiger

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betarhoalphadelta

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MikeDeTiger

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847badgerfan

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Gigem

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Gigem

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FearlessF

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Cincydawg

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