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Topic: Retirement / What am I working for?

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Riffraft

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Re: Retirement / What am I working for?
« Reply #42 on: November 07, 2023, 09:54:32 AM »
I am reminded a bit of this old geezer at work.  He hit 65 and was at the top rank of the technical ladder.  He was from eastern Europe.  I got to know him a bit, I really didn't think that much of him, his approach was entirely Edisonian.  Anyway, he had to retire at 65, but he kept coming to work.  They let him keep his lab, and he came every day, I'd see him at lunch.  I don't know how long he "worked", but a friend told me he just had no "life" elsewhere.  He would have had a ton of money at his level, millions.

I felt a bit sad for him. 

There was another fellow with office next to mine who was at the same top level, to the point they created another level above that just for him.  He seemed pretty reasonable, we chatted pretty often, it was funny seeing all the young sycophants coming to see him.  He told me he'd come to work as long as they let him.

I understand feeling the "status" at his level, OK fine, but it's work, and that status isn't going to get you anything but some sense of being important.  You're not.  You're a big fish in a small pond at best.

It is great in your career if you did a few things to be proud of of course, employing others is great, getting a business running is great.  The things I'd say I was proud of are all things for which I got zero recognition.  It happens.
Goes to the old adage, do you live to work or work to live?  Personally I work to live.  Work has always been a means to an end. Provide for my family.  Allow me to do the things I want to do.  Give generously to causes and organization I support.  Now that I don't need to work anymore to live, I gladly put it away and move on. 

FearlessF

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Re: Retirement / What am I working for?
« Reply #43 on: November 07, 2023, 10:05:20 AM »
I worked to live until a couple years ago
Now I live to work
enjoying my job
"Courage; Generosity; Fairness; Honor; In these are the true awards of manly sport."

MikeDeTiger

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Re: Retirement / What am I working for?
« Reply #44 on: November 07, 2023, 11:44:35 AM »
I don't mean this in a nosy way, but out of genuine curosity....you guys who started/own your own businesses, if you don't mind getting into it....what are they, specifically? 

I'm always curious to find out what needs people saw and what business they started in order to fill it, how they structured it, etc.  

Cincydawg

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Re: Retirement / What am I working for?
« Reply #45 on: November 07, 2023, 11:47:09 AM »
I know badger pretends to be an engineer, but in reality, he digs ditches.  And builds dikes.

Cincydawg

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Re: Retirement / What am I working for?
« Reply #46 on: November 07, 2023, 01:06:28 PM »
How much to save monthly on $80,000/year to retire with $1.5 million (cnbc.com)

If you start at 25
  • Earning a 3% annual rate of return: $1,485 per month
  • Earning a 5% annual rate of return: $873 per month
  • Earning a 7% annual rate of return: $490 per month
  • Earning a 10% annual rate of return: $192 per month


You can see the impact of RoR on the numbers.  Presuming this is in some tax deferred account, you still have inflation to worry about.  That $1.5 mil might sound pretty good now and look paltry in 30 years.  A 5% R0R might end up being 0% after inflation, and you'd still be paying taxes on withdrawals.



medinabuckeye1

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Re: Retirement / What am I working for?
« Reply #47 on: November 07, 2023, 01:21:37 PM »
P.S.  Every year you work is a year you don't have to "cover" with your retirement.  And you'll likely need some health insurance, I'm lucky to have retiree insurance and now Medicare.
I do generally think that "betting on you" as others have put it is probably a good idea and worth at least seriously considering but, being the resident accountant/pessimist I'll give some devil's advocate thoughts.  I'm doing this largely because a lot of people have already said "go for it" so me being another one of those wouldn't really help you so I'll take the opposite side.  

The item I quoted from @Cincydawg is an important consideration.  You are my age (late 40's) so you have ~30 years to the average life expectancy.  IIRC you said your 401k had around $1/2 Million.  If you can add $33k/yr and you stay three more years you get to $600k plus you have three less years to cover.  
Math:
  • $500k/30 = $16,667/yr
  • $600k/27 = $22,222/yr
  • $5,555/yr difference 33%
That is WAY oversimplified as it doesn't account for investment returns either while you are working or after you are retired but what I am illustrating here is that three extra years can make a VERY substantial difference.  

A second consideration:
How cyclical is your business?  Badge mentioned being heavily involved in housing and having to trim his company from 28 employees to 6.  Housing is hyper-cyclical because it can more-or-less always be deferred so in a recession it tends to plummet.  OTOH, if you are selling low-cost food that tends not to be cyclical at all because everybody has to eat.  Some businesses are even counter-cyclical as demand grows for lower-cost items when recession worries peak.  

Personally, I think we are headed for at least a slow-down.  That said, there is an old joke that most economists have predicted 5 out of the last 3 recessions because they always tend to predict recessions, LoL.  

I didn't predict the 2020 Pandemic.  I didn't predict the 2008 credit crunch/recession.  I didn't predict the early-2000's dot-com bubble burst.  Thus, I'm not going to pretend that I can predict the next calamity.  That said, I can predict with absolute certainty that there WILL BE a calamity.  It might be just a garden-variety recession or it might be some weird credit-thing or it might be some weird pandemic but whatever it is, there WILL BE a calamity.  

If your business is hyper-cyclical, I wouldn't want to depend on it until I got to the point where I could comfortably live without it.  

A third consideration:
How hard would it be to get back into employment if your side business went sideways?  You mentioned making low $100's and considering that to be bad.  You also said you don't have a degree.  That is fine if you are a certified underwater basketweaver or whatever and your profession is in demand and you could either stay certified or easily get recertified and return to that line of work if you had to.  If not, the salary for non-degreed labor around here is nowhere close to $100k.  If you had to jump back in, where would you realistically be jumping in?  

I don't have a lot of faith in SS and frankly, at our age I don't consider $500k to be anywhere close to enough to live on for the rest of our lives.  Assuming a 10% return and 30 years of remaining lifespan that $500k is enough to get you around $53k/yr.  Is that enough for you to live on?  Furthermore, that rate may be optimistic and even if you hit it, you'd be flat broke at 78.  If you stretch that out to 40 years the annual drops to $51k, is that enough?  If you stretch it out to 40 years and think you need $100k, you need almost $1M.  

At this point in your life and using my 10% assumed return, you need to add $2,763,26 to add one more year to your retirement "coverage".  So if you work one more year and put $2,763.26 in your account, you are effectively adding two years.  (That relationship isn't linear just FYI).  

Just food for thought and I'm (mostly) just playing devil's advocate.  


betarhoalphadelta

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Re: Retirement / What am I working for?
« Reply #48 on: November 07, 2023, 01:45:01 PM »
You are my age (late 40's) so you have ~30 years to the average life expectancy.    

Just one point here. The average life expectancy of 78 is from birth. The average life expectancy for a male who reaches age 65 is another 18 years, or 83:

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/factsheets/factsheet_nvss.pdf

The life expectancy from birth takes into account infant mortality, accidental/criminal deaths, and all sorts of other things that might lead to lower lifespan. But given that the goal is saving for retirement, the idea should be to plan for at or beyond the life expectancy at age 65. 

Gigem

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Re: Retirement / What am I working for?
« Reply #49 on: November 07, 2023, 01:57:27 PM »
So there is a fundamental misunderstanding of the purpose of this thread by a couple of people.  I'm not looking to retire and NOT work.  I'm looking to leave my current job/career early to pursue ramping up my business.  

The question I'm asking or pondering is "What am I staying for?".  In other words, what do I lose by leaving a few years early.  

I really should have known some of this but when I hired in in my 20's but retirement seemed a long way away and my company was known at the time for having good retirement benefits.  And the benefits are confusing, because if you hired in at such and such date and this and that you get this and that, so it's not really clear.

Plus, they changed the game for retirees, three times now.  And that's just three times since I've been here.  They changed it in the 80's and 90's, as I'm sure all companies do, but it makes it cloudy to determine exactly where I land but I'm starting to get a better picture.  

So far here is what I have found:
-Medical benefits suck.  You have to be at least 50 to even get retirement insurance, and it's expensive ($850-$1200 depending on YOS).  It's also a high deductible plan.  Not sure at this point if I couldn't do better on my own.  

-Pension.  This one is easy.  No more pension after this year, no matter how many more years I work.  I only have what I've already put in it.  The only difference I can see is that there is an option that you can get more money from the day you start drawing until you receive SS but only if you retire at 50 or older.  So if I leave now I won't get it.  The downside is that once SS kicks in the pension goes way down.  Not sure if this one is worth waiting on, I need to model it a little more.  

-401K.  I already know how much I have in it.  The match goes up starting next year to defer some of the loss of the pension.  Not a bad deal because it definitely does not tie you to a company, and when you're done, you're really done.  I think I can start my own 401K via my company and roll my current one into it, and maybe even put as much or more money into it than what I would get if I stay.  But only if we make enough money (profit) to get to that point.  

betarhoalphadelta

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Re: Retirement / What am I working for?
« Reply #50 on: November 07, 2023, 01:59:23 PM »
It is great in your career if you did a few things to be proud of of course

The things I'd say I was proud of are all things for which I got zero recognition.
Oddly enough, this document is one of the things I'm most proud of since switching to my new role. It came out of a blogger/review site reviewing one of our products and making it clear that he didn't understand anything about certain specifications common in our industry and what they meant. I looked around at anything we'd produced, anything our competitors had produced, and realized there wasn't a single document available in our entire industry that could adequately explain the relationship. So I wrote it. 

It isn't some document about our products specifically... It applies to the entire industry. It's a bit boring and technical. But nothing like it existed before, so I feel like I contributed something to world knowledge on the subject by producing it, and explained things in a way that you don't have to be knee deep in storage device reliability as your career to understand it.

It's not a big thing... But it's mine. 

medinabuckeye1

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Re: Retirement / What am I working for?
« Reply #51 on: November 07, 2023, 02:26:16 PM »
Just one point here. The average life expectancy of 78 is from birth. The average life expectancy for a male who reaches age 65 is another 18 years, or 83:

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/factsheets/factsheet_nvss.pdf

The life expectancy from birth takes into account infant mortality, accidental/criminal deaths, and all sorts of other things that might lead to lower lifespan. But given that the goal is saving for retirement, the idea should be to plan for at or beyond the life expectancy at age 65.
You are right. I actually pulled up that document before I did my post but thought it would overcomplicate it so I left it out.

Gigem

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Re: Retirement / What am I working for?
« Reply #52 on: November 07, 2023, 02:34:10 PM »
I do generally think that "betting on you" as others have put it is probably a good idea and worth at least seriously considering but, being the resident accountant/pessimist I'll give some devil's advocate thoughts.  I'm doing this largely because a lot of people have already said "go for it" so me being another one of those wouldn't really help you so I'll take the opposite side. 

The item I quoted from @Cincydawg is an important consideration.  You are my age (late 40's) so you have ~30 years to the average life expectancy.  IIRC you said your 401k had around $1/2 Million.  If you can add $33k/yr and you stay three more years you get to $600k plus you have three less years to cover. 
Math:
  • $500k/30 = $16,667/yr
  • $600k/27 = $22,222/yr
  • $5,555/yr difference 33%
That is WAY oversimplified as it doesn't account for investment returns either while you are working or after you are retired but what I am illustrating here is that three extra years can make a VERY substantial difference. 

A second consideration:
How cyclical is your business?  Badge mentioned being heavily involved in housing and having to trim his company from 28 employees to 6.  Housing is hyper-cyclical because it can more-or-less always be deferred so in a recession it tends to plummet.  OTOH, if you are selling low-cost food that tends not to be cyclical at all because everybody has to eat.  Some businesses are even counter-cyclical as demand grows for lower-cost items when recession worries peak. 

Personally, I think we are headed for at least a slow-down.  That said, there is an old joke that most economists have predicted 5 out of the last 3 recessions because they always tend to predict recessions, LoL. 

I didn't predict the 2020 Pandemic.  I didn't predict the 2008 credit crunch/recession.  I didn't predict the early-2000's dot-com bubble burst.  Thus, I'm not going to pretend that I can predict the next calamity.  That said, I can predict with absolute certainty that there WILL BE a calamity.  It might be just a garden-variety recession or it might be some weird credit-thing or it might be some weird pandemic but whatever it is, there WILL BE a calamity. 

If your business is hyper-cyclical, I wouldn't want to depend on it until I got to the point where I could comfortably live without it. 

A third consideration:
How hard would it be to get back into employment if your side business went sideways?  You mentioned making low $100's and considering that to be bad.  You also said you don't have a degree.  That is fine if you are a certified underwater basketweaver or whatever and your profession is in demand and you could either stay certified or easily get recertified and return to that line of work if you had to.  If not, the salary for non-degreed labor around here is nowhere close to $100k.  If you had to jump back in, where would you realistically be jumping in? 

I don't have a lot of faith in SS and frankly, at our age I don't consider $500k to be anywhere close to enough to live on for the rest of our lives.  Assuming a 10% return and 30 years of remaining lifespan that $500k is enough to get you around $53k/yr.  Is that enough for you to live on?  Furthermore, that rate may be optimistic and even if you hit it, you'd be flat broke at 78.  If you stretch that out to 40 years the annual drops to $51k, is that enough?  If you stretch it out to 40 years and think you need $100k, you need almost $1M. 

At this point in your life and using my 10% assumed return, you need to add $2,763,26 to add one more year to your retirement "coverage".  So if you work one more year and put $2,763.26 in your account, you are effectively adding two years.  (That relationship isn't linear just FYI). 

Just food for thought and I'm (mostly) just playing devil's advocate. 
Couple of points: 

-I do have my degree.  But I've mostly worked jobs that didn't really *require* having a degree, or not exactly the degree I have.  The job I have now is the closest I've had to needing a degree, but about half the people in my job do have one and half don't.  

-I think I could probably go back to work for my old company fairly easily, either as a direct hire or a contractor.  It's very common for people to come and go, and they often seek out former employees of good standing for special projects/assignments.  Very common for retirees to come back after a year or two off.  I've actually applied for other jobs at other companies through the years in times of being disgruntled and gotten interviews fairly easily, but never offered a job.  

- Business is somewhat cyclical, and tied to housing, but our area was, is, and projected to be high growth for decades.  Every time we turn around they're announcing another billion dollar project in our back yard, more jobs, and high paying jobs relative to other parts of the country.  It also seems that we still have a LCOL compared to other places and robust demand for housing even when the rest of the country is depressed.  

betarhoalphadelta

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Re: Retirement / What am I working for?
« Reply #53 on: November 07, 2023, 02:49:03 PM »
@Gigem It seems to me that there might be tangible benefits to hanging on 2 more years to hit age 50. As you mention you'll have to model it more and consider the opportunity cost of what you would forego building your business during that time. 

Gigem

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Re: Retirement / What am I working for?
« Reply #54 on: November 07, 2023, 03:05:18 PM »
I wanted to add that I don't really think that making low $100's sucks, but with a one income family it's not that much money.  It's definitely a good living, but not a great one and I think I can just do better with my own business and I don't want to wait until I'm in my 50's to really kick this thing off.  

As far as waiting until I'm 50 I'm struggling because I'm juggling both.  Not sure I can do this for two more years, I don't have anybody who can replace me even if I had enough money to pay somebody.  This field/business is specialized knowledge, most of the people who have this knowledge already have their own business.  

medinabuckeye1

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Re: Retirement / What am I working for?
« Reply #55 on: November 07, 2023, 04:23:58 PM »
Just one point here. The average life expectancy of 78 is from birth. The average life expectancy for a male who reaches age 65 is another 18 years, or 83:

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/factsheets/factsheet_nvss.pdf

The life expectancy from birth takes into account infant mortality, accidental/criminal deaths, and all sorts of other things that might lead to lower lifespan. But given that the goal is saving for retirement, the idea should be to plan for at or beyond the life expectancy at age 65.
More on life expectancy:
Total aside, the SSA's newest numbers have male life expectancy at birth down to just over 74 years which is a SUBSTANTIAL drop from around 78 years not long ago.  

Anyway, they have a handy-dandy life expectancy table that lists not just life expectancy at birth and life expectancy at 65 but life expectancy at every age up to well past 100.  

As @betarhoalphadelta pointed out, it increases as you age.  Ie, as each year passes your expected remaining lifespan decreases but it decreases by less than one year.  Per the latest table:
  • A newborn should live to 74.12.  
  • A 1 year old should live an additional 73.55 years, to 74.55.  
  • A 30 year old should live an additional 45.86 years, to 75.86.  

Now for the more relevant considerations:
  • At @Gigem 's current 48, he should live an additional 30 years, to 78.  
  • If he makes is to 58, on average he'll make it to 80.  
  • If he makes it to 68, on average he'll make it to 83.  
  • If he makes it to 78, on average he'll make it to 87.  
  • If he makes it to 88, on average he'll make it to 92.5.  
The problem, for retirement calculations, is that being wrong is highly problematic.  Ie, if @Gigem plans his retirement to get him to exactly 78 because that is SSA's average life expectancy for him at 48 and he does live to 78, he'll be flat broke and still expected to live another nine years.  

If you are running a large pension or annuity system this isn't a major problem because some people will die young and some will live for a long time and it all balances out.  The pension/annuity provider effectively takes some of the money from the people who died young and gives it to the people with higher longevity.  

However, if you are planning your own retirement you don't have a "balance out".  If you live longer than your savings you just plain run out of money.  One way to adjust for this is to add the extra longevity each year.  Ie:
  • At 48 you have 30.01 years left.  
  • After burning off a year to 49 you still have 29.17 so recalibrate with living to 78.17.  
  • At 50 you have 28.33 years so recalibrate to living to 78.33.  
  • . . .
  • At 60 you have 20.47 years so recalibrate to living to 80.47.  
  • . . .
  • At 70 you have 13.59 years so recalibrate to living to 83.59.  
  • At 75 you have 10.46 years so recalibrate to living to 85.46.  
  • At 80 you have 7.74 years so recalibrate to living to 87.74.  
  • At 85 you have 5.47 years so recalibrate to living to 90.47.  
  • etc.  
At first this is almost no difference.  The problem is that the longer you live the bigger the recalibrations become.  


 

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