header pic

Perhaps the BEST B1G Forum anywhere, here at College Football Fan Site, CFB51!!!

The 'Old' CFN/Scout Crowd- Enjoy Civil discussion, game analytics, in depth player and coaching 'takes' and discussing topics surrounding the game. You can even have your own free board, all you have to do is ask!!!

Anyone is welcomed and encouraged to join our FREE site and to take part in our community- a community with you- the user, the fan, -and the person- will be protected from intrusive actions and with a clean place to interact.


« previous next »
Pages: 1 [2] 3   Go Down
Author

Topic: Remaining Undefeated and Winless Teams Before Week 4

 (Read 2811 times)

OrangeAfroMan

  • Stats Porn
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 18937
  • Liked:
Re: Remaining Undefeated and Winless Teams Before Week 4
« Reply #14 on: September 20, 2023, 07:14:35 PM »
Quote from: MaximumSam on September 20, 2023, 06:06:15 PM
Colorado-Colorado State was the fifth most watched ESPN game ever. The idea that people will lose interest in college football because the games aren't dictating the national championship feels...less than compelling.

Who said lose interest?  
Medina's post was about competition...how every game used to be more meaningful.  
You're citing CU vs CSU, a pop-culture clown show.  Celebrities on the sidelines.  ESPN pumping it up.  All for a bunch of CU "fans" that couldn't find reverse on a Soviet tank, rushing the field after eeking out a win over a G5 team.
Meaningless.
Eyeballs.
Yet meaningless.

I see the sliding scale of competition vs entertainment as going way over to the entertainment end.  Expanded playoffs is the same.  

This isn't a good thing.

Logged
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

medinabuckeye1

  • Legend
  • ****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 8935
  • Liked:
Re: Remaining Undefeated and Winless Teams Before Week 4
« Reply #15 on: September 20, 2023, 08:11:00 PM »
Quote from: LittlePig on September 20, 2023, 05:50:58 PM
I have never understood this argument.  If you make the playoffs,  you want to be there because you deserved it, right?  You don't want to be a fraud.  You want to prove that you deserved that spot.  Who wants to make the playoffs because they played a chicken sh! t schedule.  Who takes pride in that?
I don't understand how this relates to the issue of the importance of individual regular season games.
Logged

medinabuckeye1

  • Legend
  • ****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 8935
  • Liked:
Re: Remaining Undefeated and Winless Teams Before Week 4
« Reply #16 on: September 20, 2023, 08:12:01 PM »
Quote from: MaximumSam on September 20, 2023, 06:06:15 PM
Colorado-Colorado State was the fifth most watched ESPN game ever. The idea that people will lose interest in college football because the games aren't dictating the national championship feels...less than compelling.
Way to cherry 🍒 pick a ridiculous outlier
Logged

MaximumSam

  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 13124
  • Liked:
Re: Remaining Undefeated and Winless Teams Before Week 4
« Reply #17 on: September 20, 2023, 09:25:24 PM »
Quote from: medinabuckeye1 on September 20, 2023, 08:12:01 PM
Way to cherry 🍒 pick a ridiculous outlier
What is the outlier? Colorado is popular. No one tuned into that game thinking the winner was advancing to the championship game. They tuned in for the fun. The argument that people are going to stop caring about college football because a loss won't be as meaningful is a pretty complete nonstarter, given the evidence that people absolutely love tuning into big games no matter what. Just look to the NFL for proof of that.

Logged

MaximumSam

  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 13124
  • Liked:
Re: Remaining Undefeated and Winless Teams Before Week 4
« Reply #18 on: September 20, 2023, 09:28:15 PM »

Quote
I see the sliding scale of competition vs entertainment as going way over to the entertainment end.  Expanded playoffs is the same.  
The problem has always been intractable. There aren't enough games in football to really have a meaningful "competition" without some sort of playoff. To me, it is whether you want to be entertained a crown a champ, or not be entertained a crown a champ. Never seen a very good argument that not having playoffs is "better."


Of course, if we want to go by advanced stats over results on the field I am claiming a championship for the 2019 Buckeyes.
Logged

OrangeAfroMan

  • Stats Porn
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 18937
  • Liked:
Re: Remaining Undefeated and Winless Teams Before Week 4
« Reply #19 on: September 20, 2023, 09:55:33 PM »
Quote from: MaximumSam on September 20, 2023, 09:28:15 PM

Of course, if we want to go by advanced stats over results on the field I am claiming a championship for the 2019 Buckeyes.
You always seem to throw something like this in every post, when no one has mentioned it or has suggested it.

Losses can be costly, but not damning.  And the not knowing is what gives it gravitas.  And there are different qualities of losses.  And different qualities of wins.  And none of it is contradictory.  

Each game provides an outcome, not a truth.  Yes, a win is earned, but so was the previous one and so is the next.  College schedules are so wildly uneven, that ranking teams by number of losses is stupid, shallow, and wrong.  


Logged
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

MaximumSam

  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 13124
  • Liked:
Re: Remaining Undefeated and Winless Teams Before Week 4
« Reply #20 on: September 20, 2023, 10:04:41 PM »
Quote from: OrangeAfroMan on September 20, 2023, 09:55:33 PM
You always seem to throw something like this in every post, when no one has mentioned it or has suggested it.

Losses can be costly, but not damning.  And the not knowing is what gives it gravitas.  And there are different qualities of losses.  And different qualities of wins.  And none of it is contradictory. 

Each game provides an outcome, not a truth.  Yes, a win is earned, but so was the previous one and so is the next.  College schedules are so wildly uneven, that ranking teams by number of losses is stupid, shallow, and wrong. 
I throw it in the be cheeky. The 2019 OSU Buckeyes were the best team by all the Fancy Stats. They just didn't prove it on the field, due to those pesky playoffs. Your argument says the Buckeyes were the champs. The results on the field awarded it to LSU. That is why we have the playoffs, to put stop arguing about numbers and let the teams prove it. Yes, the playoffs provide upsets, as we saw that year when Clemson got lots of fluke plays to upset the Buckeyes and prevent a heck of a title game. But I am still stumped by the idea that this is bad compared to the alternatives.
Logged

OrangeAfroMan

  • Stats Porn
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 18937
  • Liked:
Re: Remaining Undefeated and Winless Teams Before Week 4
« Reply #21 on: September 20, 2023, 10:14:38 PM »
Please quote a post I've mentioned "fancy stats" or anything similar. 
I've never said 2019 OSU was better than 2019 LSU.  Do not put words in my mouth.
Logged
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

MaximumSam

  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 13124
  • Liked:
Re: Remaining Undefeated and Winless Teams Before Week 4
« Reply #22 on: September 20, 2023, 10:23:38 PM »
Quote from: OrangeAfroMan on September 20, 2023, 10:14:38 PM
Please quote a post I've mentioned "fancy stats" or anything similar.
I've never said 2019 OSU was better than 2019 LSU.  Do not put words in my mouth.
I'm not putting words in your mouth, I'm stating facts. 

There aren't enough head to head games in college football to definitely crown a champion. So, we could used advanced statistics, or we could have a playoff, or we could just do whatever feels good. So when you say we aren't thinking enough about competition, but instead thinking about entertainment, I am just pointing out that the 2019 Ohio State Buckeyes were statistically the best team and by "competition" deserved to have a championship. Instead, we went down the entertainment road and crowned LSU. If you feel LSU deserved the championship that season, then congrats, you have voted for entertainment being the better barometer. 
Logged

OrangeAfroMan

  • Stats Porn
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 18937
  • Liked:
Re: Remaining Undefeated and Winless Teams Before Week 4
« Reply #23 on: September 20, 2023, 10:36:43 PM »
You don't know what a fact is. 
You don't seem to understand anything being said.  I mean jesus christ.  You're a vapid wall in this discussion.  

My recollection of 2019 was everyone marveling at LSU's offense and everyone else being "other."  Clemson, OSU, etc were reeeeally good, but LSU was special.  
Perhaps we took in different opinions.  

But even still, your stating OSU was the best team is bizarre.  If that was the consensus, wouldn't they have been the 1 seed?  I don't know how to reach you, because you don't just have odd opinions, but much of your 'facts' are demonstrably false.  It's weird.  

Ohio State losing to Clemson was, in fact, a data point.  So was LSU's first half vs OU.  If you valued OU anywhere close to Clemson, those games might have seemed quite revealing and even influential about your opinions on OSU and LSU.  

You seem to think determining the best team is definitive for what I'm advocating for, but once again, I have no idea how you came to that conclusion.  Our minds seem to work very differently.  That's the nicest way I can put it.

« Last Edit: September 20, 2023, 10:42:28 PM by OrangeAfroMan »
Logged
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

ohio1317

  • Red Shirt
  • ***
  • Posts: 488
  • Liked:
Re: Remaining Undefeated and Winless Teams Before Week 4
« Reply #24 on: September 20, 2023, 10:44:33 PM »
I cant speak for anyone else, but to me, a lot will be lost.  I will still follow Ohio State and the Big Ten and, to a degree, the national race, but the national race will be a lot less relevant to me.

I love March Madness, but make no extra effort to watch a #1 vs. #2 regular season basketball game as it doesn't seem that important, especially if an out of conference game.   For that matter, I hardly follow any non-Big Ten regular season because it just doesn't seem that relevant to my rooting interests.   Football won't go quiete that far, but when the other champs are in regardless and the Big Ten will get 2-4 teams most years, what happens across the country just wont mean as much to me.
Logged

OrangeAfroMan

  • Stats Porn
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 18937
  • Liked:
Re: Remaining Undefeated and Winless Teams Before Week 4
« Reply #25 on: September 20, 2023, 10:45:46 PM »
Exactly.
Logged
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

MaximumSam

  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 13124
  • Liked:
Re: Remaining Undefeated and Winless Teams Before Week 4
« Reply #26 on: September 21, 2023, 07:00:41 AM »

Quote
You seem to think determining the best team is definitive for what I'm advocating for, but once again, I have no idea how you came to that conclusion.  Our minds seem to work very differently.  That's the nicest way I can put it.
Pinning down exactly what you are saying is always the biggest challenge. My recollection is that you said ranking teams by the number of losses is a dumb idea. This is true! College football has wildly disparate schedules and not many games, so it is very easy for a superior team to have more losses than another team. 


But then you have to turn to the next problem, which is how to rank teams. Do we go by feels? LSU was #1 by the feels. Do we go by statistics? OSU kicked butt there. Do we do some sort of half and half thing like the BCS? Do we have them play in the playoff? How do we choose the teams? These are all questions everyone has grappled with forever; they all have upsides and downsides. 

My contention is that an expanded playoff, if done properly, will mean more meaningful games during the regular season, and a more fair playoff. Plus it will make number of losses less meaningful, so that should make you happy anyway.
Logged

medinabuckeye1

  • Legend
  • ****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 8935
  • Liked:
Re: Remaining Undefeated and Winless Teams Before Week 4
« Reply #27 on: September 21, 2023, 08:32:59 AM »
Quote from: ohio1317 on September 20, 2023, 10:44:33 PM
I cant speak for anyone else, but to me, a lot will be lost.  I will still follow Ohio State and the Big Ten and, to a degree, the national race, but the national race will be a lot less relevant to me.

I love March Madness, but make no extra effort to watch a #1 vs. #2 regular season basketball game as it doesn't seem that important, especially if an out of conference game.  For that matter, I hardly follow any non-Big Ten regular season because it just doesn't seem that relevant to my rooting interests.  Football won't go quiete that far, but when the other champs are in regardless and the Big Ten will get 2-4 teams most years, what happens across the country just wont mean as much to me.
This is exactly my position. 
Logged
Pages: 1 [2] 3   Go Up
« previous next »
 
Support the Site!
Purchase of every item listed here DIRECTLY supports the site.
Smokey Record Hoodie

Custom Mahogany Shadow Box