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Topic: Rank these teams

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Kris60

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Re: Rank these teams
« Reply #14 on: December 14, 2020, 05:41:36 AM »
Maybe more so than at any other time the CFP is leaning on perception and reputation in regards to Ohio St

OrangeAfroMan

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Re: Rank these teams
« Reply #15 on: December 14, 2020, 07:02:43 AM »
OSU's (limited) outcomes have fallen in line with their perception.
USC's (limited) outcomes have fallen in line with their perception.  
All equal W-L records are not equal. 
.
It's not really that difficult.  
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

Honestbuckeye

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Re: Rank these teams
« Reply #16 on: December 14, 2020, 08:14:48 AM »
Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please.
-Mark Twain

Kris60

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Re: Rank these teams
« Reply #17 on: December 14, 2020, 08:26:50 AM »
OSU's (limited) outcomes have fallen in line with their perception.
USC's (limited) outcomes have fallen in line with their perception. 
All equal W-L records are not equal.
.
It's not really that difficult. 
Yeah, but if you give Maryland those same 5 wins are they ranked 4th right now?  My guess would be no.

medinabuckeye1

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Re: Rank these teams
« Reply #18 on: December 14, 2020, 09:22:05 AM »
Yeah, but if you give Maryland those same 5 wins are they ranked 4th right now?  My guess would be no.
No, but @OrangeAfroMan covered that. He noted that tOSU's results were in line with perception. 

If Maryland had the same results that would be substantially better than perception which would have improved the perception of Maryland but, you are right, not to the level of tOSU.

It is just tough to rank teams this year. There are almost zero OOC results to help determine league strength and limited total games. 

Kris60

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Re: Rank these teams
« Reply #19 on: December 14, 2020, 09:35:10 AM »
No, but @OrangeAfroMan covered that. He noted that tOSU's results were in line with perception.

If Maryland had the same results that would be substantially better than perception which would have improved the perception of Maryland but, you are right, not to the level of tOSU.

It is just tough to rank teams this year. There are almost zero OOC results to help determine league strength and limited total games.
I agree with all of that. I guess my point was I think perception and reputation is playing a bigger part than ever before because of smaller sample sizes.

bayareabadger

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Re: Rank these teams
« Reply #20 on: December 14, 2020, 09:43:26 AM »
I agree with all of that. I guess my point was I think perception and reputation is playing a bigger part than ever before because of smaller sample sizes.
I mean, is Maryland also winning by 23 points a game? 

By SRS, which is a bit clunky, Cincy is third, ND fourth, USC fifth, BYU sixth. Granted MOV carries a lot of weight there. 

OrangeAfroMan

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Re: Rank these teams
« Reply #21 on: December 14, 2020, 10:19:00 AM »
Yeah, but if you give Maryland those same 5 wins are they ranked 4th right now?  My guess would be no.
No.  That's my point.
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

Kris60

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Re: Rank these teams
« Reply #22 on: December 14, 2020, 11:19:44 AM »
What I’m saying is in years past I think the ratio of results to perception was weighted more heavily to results. This year, especially in Ohio St’s case, perception is playing more of a part.

I think in previous years the committee has had the luxury to grade teams largely on their performance.  This year it doesn’t.  Ohio St’s results have been good but you could give those same results to many other teams in the nation and not garner a #4 ranking.  That ranking is as much about what they expected Ohio St to be as it is what they have been.

FearlessF

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Re: Rank these teams
« Reply #23 on: December 14, 2020, 11:33:30 AM »
OSU's perception is obviously strong

mostly from going toe to toe with Clemson last season in the playoff and returning their QB

also 13-0 last season

some don't like the idea of the previous season's performance altering this season's perception, but it does.

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 going only on on field performance in 2020

which one of us is going to bet the farm on USC in a game vs OSU?
"Courage; Generosity; Fairness; Honor; In these are the true awards of manly sport."

medinabuckeye1

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Re: Rank these teams
« Reply #24 on: December 14, 2020, 11:50:41 AM »
I agree with all of that. I guess my point was I think perception and reputation is playing a bigger part than ever before because of smaller sample sizes.
And I agree with that.  
What I’m saying is in years past I think the ratio of results to perception was weighted more heavily to results. This year, especially in Ohio St’s case, perception is playing more of a part.

I think in previous years the committee has had the luxury to grade teams largely on their performance.  This year it doesn’t.  Ohio St’s results have been good but you could give those same results to many other teams in the nation and not garner a #4 ranking.  That ranking is as much about what they expected Ohio St to be as it is what they have been.
I think that is a product of necessity.  

If, after one game each year, you ranked teams solely based on that one game all you would have is an ordered list of MOV.  However, this would, in almost all cases, be ridiculously wrong.  Ie, if Ohio State started a hypothetical year with a 1 point loss to Bama while USC started with a 1 point loss to SJSU, those are not equal.  In all probability, tOSU's hypothetical 1 point loss to Bama suggests that tOSU is VERY good while USC's hypothetical 1 point loss to SJSU suggests that USC is terrible.  

To get around this issue most voters and computer models use their preseason expectations to evaluate results and, in this hypothetical they would mostly come to the conclusion that:
  • Ohio State had a close loss to possibly the best team in the Country, they are probably at least a top-10 team despite the loss.  
  • USC had a close loss to a bottom-feeder, they are probably not worthy of anything close to the top-25.  

However, as this hypothetical season progresses it *COULD* turn out that Bama sucks and tOSU's 1-point loss to them is a REALLY bad reflection on the Buckeyes.  It also *COULD* turn out that SJSU is REALLY good and USC's 1-point loss to them reflects pretty well on the Trojans.  

Most computer models have an built in algorithm to deal with this issue.  A typical example would be:
  • 100% preseason expectation for the preseason rankings (obviously).  
  • 90% preseason expectation and 10% season results for the week #1 rankings.  
  • 80% preseason expectation and 20% season results for the week #2 rankings.  
  • 70% preseason expectation and 30% season results for the week #3 rankings.  
  • 60% preseason expectation and 40% season results for the week #4 rankings.  
  • 50/50 preseason expectation and season results for the week #5 rankings.  
  • 40% preseason expectations and 60% season results for the week #6 rankings.  
  • 30% preseason expectations and 70% season results for the week #7 rankings.  
  • 20% preseason expectations and 80% season results for the week #8 rankings.  
  • 10% preseason expectations and 90% season results for the week #9 rankings.  
  • 100% season results for the week #10 and beyond rankings.  

In a normal season this works out fine.  Fans of a team like Indiana that substantially exceeded expectations this year would have a complaint for a while but eventually the rankings are based solely on season results so it all works out.  In a normal season most teams play 12 games over 13 weeks before the CG's so by this point in the season the rankings are already 100% based on season results and have been for a few weeks.  

The problem this year is that teams like tOSU and USC (with only 5 games played so far) are still at a 50/50 balance and even after the CG's (assuming they are played) 40% of their ranking would still be based on preseason expectation.  

Kris60

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Re: Rank these teams
« Reply #25 on: December 14, 2020, 11:56:33 AM »
I think it’s a product of necessity too.  I’m not criticizing it necessarily.  The committee is in an impossible situation.  If Ohio St makes the CFP there will be bellyaching over a team that played 6 games getting in as opposed to others that played 10 or 11, and that bellyaching will have some merit.

If they leave Ohio St out then you will have Big Ten/Ohio St fans complaining that they played as many games as they safely could and in the games they did play they looked like a team that deserved to be in the discussion, and that will have merit.

Honestbuckeye

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Re: Rank these teams
« Reply #26 on: December 14, 2020, 12:24:29 PM »
This system is about opinions.  That’s it.  Nothing more need be said.   

Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please.
-Mark Twain

FearlessF

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Re: Rank these teams
« Reply #27 on: December 14, 2020, 12:26:07 PM »
Texas A&M had the chance to play fewer games and not lose to Bama

all they had to do was call COVID
"Courage; Generosity; Fairness; Honor; In these are the true awards of manly sport."

 

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