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Topic: Playoff Possibilities

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medinabuckeye1

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Playoff Possibilities
« on: November 21, 2022, 01:54:21 PM »
Obviously the new CFP rankings will not come out until Tuesday evening so I'm working from the AP poll here but this is my take:

Teams that control their own destiny:

  • #1, 11-0 Georgia (vs GaTech, vs #6 LSU in SECCG)
  • #2, 11-0 Ohio State (vs #3 M, then if they win, vsB1G-W Champ* in B1GCG)
  • #3, 11-0 Michigan (at #2 tOSU, then if they win, vs B1G-W Champ* in B1GCG)
  • #4, 11-0 TCU (vsISU, vs B12^ in B12CG)
  • #5, 10-1 USC (vs#13 ND, vs P12~ in P12CG)
I think that is it.  

*B1G-W Champ is likely Iowa but possibly Purdue or Illinois.  
^B12CG opponent for TCU is likely #15 KSU but possibly #24 Texas.  
~P12CG opponent for USC is likely #10 Oregon but possibly #12 Washington or #14 Utah.  

Teams that have some plausible chance but need some help to get there:
  • #6, 9-2 LSU (ataTm, vs #1 UGA in SECCG)
  • #7, 10-1 Clemson (vs USCe, vs #18 UNC in ACCCG)

Frankly, I think that is it.  The reason is that there are a few backstops here even if things go completely haywire:
The first backstop is the one closest to home, the tOSU/M loser will be 11-1 with a good loss (how good depends on score) and the tOSU/M winner can do no worse than 12-1.  That pretty clearly relegates all the 2-loss teams that can't win their leagues to being behind both regardless of what happens in THE GAME and the B1GCG.  

The second backstop is the SEC.  Even in a crazy world where everything goes haywire UGA could do no worse than 11-2 and if they did that bad then LSU could do no worse than 10-3 and SEC Champs.  One of those teams would be in even ahead of 2-loss TN and Bama.  

The final backstops are the ACC, PAC, and B12.  The worst case scenario for the ACC is for Clemson to lose out and finish 10-3 and not Champs but that would mean that UNC would be no worse than 10-3 and ACC Champs.  The worst case scenario for the PAC is for USC to lose out and finish 10-3 and not Champs but that would mean that Oregon, Utah, or Washington was at least 10-3 and PAC Champs.  The worst case scenario for the B12 would be for TCU to lose out and finish 11-2 and not Champs but that would mean either that KSU was 10-3 and B12 Champs or that Texas was 9-4 and B12 Champs.  

Realistically those worst-case-scenarios aren't all going to happen so I think that the craziest plausible scenario still ends up with four from among the above seven.  


I think the biggest reasonably plausible curveball is what happens if LSU upsets UGA in the SECCG.  Assuming that LSU wins at aTm this weekend and that UGA beats their instate rival then the two CFP contenders from the SEC would be:
  • 12-1 non-Champion UGA.  Notable wins over #9 TN and #10 Oregon, just lost to 
  • 11-2 SEC Champion LSU.  Notable wins over then #1 UGA, current #8 Bama, and current #20 Ole Miss, losses to current #9 TN and current #16 FSU.  
What would the committee do there?  In a somewhat similar situation in the past the committee took 11-1 Bama without a league title in 2017 but note that the SEC Champion that year (Georgia) also got in so they didn't take Bama in lieu of the SEC Champ, they took them along with the SEC Champion.  In another somewhat similar situation in 2016 the committee took 11-1 tOSU without a league title over 11-2 PSU which had beaten the Buckeyes H2H.  There are, however, some notable differences.  In that situation the Buckeyes had lost to PSU in a close game on the road in mid-October.  In this case the H2H result would be immediately before the final rankings.  Also, PSU's two losses were marginally worse than LSU's would be in this hypothetical.  PSU lost to a .500 Pitt team and got hammered by a Michigan team that finished 10-2.  LSU lost to an FSU team that is now 8-3 and #16 and got hammered by a Tennessee team likely to finish 10-2.  

If TCU or USC loses this is simple for the committee.  They'll take both LSU and UGA but if tOSU/M and TCU are both 13-0 and USC is 12-1 including winning their last three against ranked teams:
  • Then #16 UCLA on the "road"
  • Then #13 ND at home
  • Then #~10 Oregon in P12CG
I just can't see the committee leaving USC out.  Thus the committee would be forced to choose between 12-1 non-Champion UGA and 11-2 SEC Champion LSU.  That is an interesting conundrum.  

There is absolutely a path for the B1G to put two teams in the CFP.  Consider these not all that unlikely possibilities:
  • UGA wins out, finishes 13-0 thus giving LSU a third loss.  
  • TCU wins out, finishes 13-0.  
  • Clemson loses either to USCe this week or to UNC next week in the ACCCG to finish 11-2.  
  • USC loses this week to ND.  
  • The tOSU/M winner wins the B1GCG to finish 13-0.  

Georgia, the tOSU/M winner, and TCU are obviously in at 13-0 each and they get the top-3 seeds.  The contenders for the remaining spot are:
  • 11-1 tOSU/M loser.  
  • 11-2 ACC Champion Clemson or UNC both of which lost to a ND team that tOSU beat.  
  • 11-2 P12 Champion either USC or Oregon.  It is either USC with a loss to a ND team that tOSU beat or Oregon which got hammered by UGA.  
  • 10-2 non-champion from the SEC (TN, Bama)
  • 10-2 Penn State which lost H2H to both tOSU and M and has a worse record.  


At least so far in the CFP era the committee has followed a "losses uber alles" model in making their in/out distinctions.  Every CFP team has been either undefeated or had only one loss.  I think they might make an exception for a 2-loss SEC Champion that just knocked off the #1 team but I don't think they are going to make an exception for a 2-loss ACC or PAC Champion that lost recently and wasn't all that highly ranked before that.  

MikeDeTiger

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Re: Playoff Possibilities
« Reply #1 on: November 21, 2022, 02:13:18 PM »
Really can't see a one-loss PAC champ USC being left out.  

If they and TCU keep winning it's a pretty clear picture.  It seems to be generally accepted that even if UGA lost the CCG they'd still make the playoffs.  It's a moot point...LSU isn't going to beat UGA, so prognostications can start to clear the picture by crossing them off the list.  

Cincydawg

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Re: Playoff Possibilities
« Reply #2 on: November 21, 2022, 02:21:56 PM »
The utter mayhem possibility (aside from the ridiculous):

OSU/UM get beat by Iowa somehow (OK, bordering on ridiculous)
UGA loses to LSU who lost to A&M
USC loses to Oregon
TCU loses twice
UNC and/or USCe beat Clemson
....
(I can't quite see a UGA loss to Tech, but Tech did beat UNC on the road ....)

UM/OSU loser is 11-1.  The winner is 12-1.  UGA is 12-1.  LSU is 10-3.




medinabuckeye1

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Re: Playoff Possibilities
« Reply #3 on: November 23, 2022, 09:56:34 AM »
Really can't see a one-loss PAC champ USC being left out.
Probably not but I thought it was interesting that the committee left your 9-2 Tigers at #5 with the 10-1 Trojans in the #6 slot.

Your Tigers, of course, have a sub .500 Aggie team this weekend while the Trojans have #15 Notre Dame. Assuming they both win there will be two things to look for in the pre-CG rankings:
  • Does the tOSU/M loser drop below neither, one, or both? My guess is both.
  • Does USC leapfrog LSU on the basis of beating #15 while LSU is playing the most talented seven-loss team in America?

If LSU is still ahead of USC after next weekend then you have to assume that they control their own destiny. I can't imagine the committee dropping LSU behind USC in a week in which LSU knocks off #1.

That certainly creates an interesting possibility that the ACC and PAC would HOWL over. Assume:
  • UGA beats GaTech, loses to LSU, finishes 12-1
  • tOSU or #3 M wins B1GCG
  • M, see above
  • TCU wins out, finishes 13-0
  • LSU wins out, finishes 11-2
  • USC wins out, finishes 12-1
  • Bama beats Auburn, finishes 10-2
  • Clemson wins out, finishes 12-1

Unless USC jumps LSU this week, I think the final rankings would be:
  • 13-0 tOSU/M winner, B1G Champ
  • 13-0 TCU, B12 Champ
  • 11-2 LSU, SEC Champ
  • 12-1 UGA
  • 12-1 USC, P12 Champ
  • 11-1 tOSU/M loser
  • 12-1 Clemson, ACC Champ
  • 10-2 Bama


OrangeAfroMan

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Re: Playoff Possibilities
« Reply #4 on: November 23, 2022, 12:41:01 PM »
Probably not but I thought it was interesting that the committee left your 9-2 Tigers at #5 with the 10-1 Trojans in the #6 slot.


For the same reason they have Bama over Clemson.....the lower-ranked team hasn't earned they way above the other one YET.
With wins vs ND and the PACCG, USC will leapfrog LSU.  With wins over USCe and the ACCCG, Clemson will leapfrog Bama.
.
LSU and Bama are basically placeholders right now.  That way, the committee can say they're only ranking teams based on what they've done.
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

medinabuckeye1

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Re: Playoff Possibilities
« Reply #5 on: November 23, 2022, 01:48:24 PM »
For the same reason they have Bama over Clemson.....the lower-ranked team hasn't earned they way above the other one YET.
With wins vs ND and the PACCG, USC will leapfrog LSU.  With wins over USCe and the ACCCG, Clemson will leapfrog Bama.
.
LSU and Bama are basically placeholders right now.  That way, the committee can say they're only ranking teams based on what they've done.
I get it and mostly agree, but I absolutely do NOT think that LSU would get leapfrogged by USC if they both win their CG.

I see the logic. At that point both would be P5 Champs and USC would have a better record but if LSU is better than USC before LSU knocks off #1 UGA, how could they not be better than USC after they knock off #1 UGA?

OrangeAfroMan

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Re: Playoff Possibilities
« Reply #6 on: November 23, 2022, 02:23:07 PM »
Oh, I was assuming we were living in reality where UGA stomps LSU.  The Tigers are very ordinary.  UGA is doing what a lot of returning champs tend to do:  play to their competition level.
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

medinabuckeye1

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Re: Playoff Possibilities
« Reply #7 on: November 23, 2022, 03:51:45 PM »
Oh, I was assuming we were living in reality where UGA stomps LSU.  The Tigers are very ordinary.  UGA is doing what a lot of returning champs tend to do:  play to their competition level.
Like you, I assume that UGA will beat LSU but if that is the case then there is no need to discuss the Tigers as a three-loss non-Champion is not getting anywhere close to the CFP.

LSU is only in the conversation IF we assume that they win out and finish as SEC Champions at 11-2.

I didn't mean this post as "What Medina thinks will happen." That is simple and not worthy of a lot of discussion, I think the first two CFP spots will go to:
  • 13-0 SEC Champ UGA
  • 13-0 B1G Champ tOSU/M
The other two, IMHO will go to in order of precedence:
  • 13-0 TCU
  • 12-1 USC
  • 12-1 Clemson
  • 11-1 tOSU/M


Brutus Buckeye

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Re: Playoff Possibilities
« Reply #8 on: November 27, 2022, 09:54:05 PM »
Now what?
1919, 20, 21, 28, 29, 31, 34, 35, 36, 37, 42, 44
WWH: 1952, 54, 55, 57, 58, 60, 61, 62, 63, 65, 67, 68, 70, 72, 74, 75
1979, 81, 82, 84, 87, 94, 98
2001, 02, 04, 05, 06, 07, 08, 09, 10, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19

OrangeAfroMan

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Re: Playoff Possibilities
« Reply #9 on: November 27, 2022, 10:02:53 PM »
It'll just be from the teams ahead of Alabama.  They're the first one left out, no matter what.

If UM is upset in the B1GCG, they'd still get in over Bama or OSU.
If TCU lost, they wouldn't fall past Bama, and it'd be between TCU or OSU.
If USC lost, they'd be out, but OSU would be in.

“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

TyphonInc

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Re: Playoff Possibilities
« Reply #10 on: November 27, 2022, 10:03:07 PM »
  • 13-0 SEC Champ UGA
  • 13-0 B1G Champ TTUN
  • 13-0 B12 Champ TCU
  • 12-1 P12 Champ USC

In Waiting for 3 or 4 to stumble
5. 10-1 B10 Bridesmaid OSU

I think if Georgia or TTUN loss in the CCG they still make it in over OSU.

ELA

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Re: Playoff Possibilities
« Reply #11 on: November 27, 2022, 10:12:48 PM »
  • 13-0 SEC Champ UGA
  • 13-0 B1G Champ TTUN
  • 13-0 B12 Champ TCU
  • 12-1 P12 Champ USC

In Waiting for 3 or 4 to stumble
5. 10-1 B10 Bridesmaid OSU

I think if Georgia or TTUN loss in the CCG they still make it in over OSU.
I agree with this.  My only question would be if both TCU and USC lose.  1 loss non champ TCU?  2 loss non champ Alabama?  2 loss champ Kansas State?

Brutus Buckeye

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Re: Playoff Possibilities
« Reply #12 on: November 27, 2022, 10:31:04 PM »
The Utes already beat USC once. 
1919, 20, 21, 28, 29, 31, 34, 35, 36, 37, 42, 44
WWH: 1952, 54, 55, 57, 58, 60, 61, 62, 63, 65, 67, 68, 70, 72, 74, 75
1979, 81, 82, 84, 87, 94, 98
2001, 02, 04, 05, 06, 07, 08, 09, 10, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19

medinabuckeye1

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Re: Playoff Possibilities
« Reply #13 on: November 27, 2022, 10:38:54 PM »
I think this might be the least drama we've ever had with CG's in the CFP era.

There is not a single CG where both teams have a chance. 

The ACCCG has zero CFP implications. UNC has three losses, Clemson has two, and both lost to ND by multiple scores which hurts them because tOSU is basically the first team out with only one loss (to a better team than either Clemson or UNC played) and a two-score win over Notre Dame.

One team in each of the other four P5CG's is either in, or would be with a win. The "other" team in the four CG's is:

  • 3-loss Utah
  • 3-loss LSU
  • 4-loss Purdue
  • 3-loss KSU
Of the ten P5CG participants six have no shot at the CFP and at least two (UGA, M) are in regardless.

That only leaves TCU and USC.

USC is obvious, they are in with a win and out with a loss. 

TCU with a loss is the only borderline case. With a loss they'd have a 1/2 game better record than tOSU but neither would be a league Champ and tOSU was substantially more dominant overall in wins. It might come down to the loss. TCU's loss (KSU) would obviously not be as good of an opponent but tOSU lost by 22 so there is a lot of room for TCU to potentially lose closer.

OTOH, the committee has frequently talked "game control" and from that perspective tOSU's loss wasn't all that bad. The Buckeyes led at halftime and were within one score until half way through the fourth quarter. That isn't the same thing as a game where people are changing the channel early in the third quarter.


So my take:
  • In no matter what: UGA, M
  • In with a win, out with a loss: USC
  • Definitely in with a win, possibly in with a loss, might depend on the margin: TCU
  • Needs a USC loss or a TCU loss (but a TCU loss might not be enough unless it is a blowout : tOSU

That just leaves this:
I agree with this.  My only question would be if both TCU and USC lose.  1 loss non champ TCU?  2 loss non champ Alabama?  2 loss champ Kansas State?
KSU has three losses not two and one of them was to Tulane so they aren't a contender.

The USC loss gets tOSU in so at that point your top three are:
  • Georgia (would drop to #2 with a loss and a M win)
  • Michigan (would jump to #1 with a win and a UGA loss)
  • tOSU
Contenders for #4:
  • 12-1 B12CG loser TCU
  • 11-2 ACC Champ Clemson (assuming they beat UNC)
  • 10-2 Bama
The committee has consistently shown a preference for fewest losses so I think TCU gets the #4 slot even with a bad loss.

 

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