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Topic: P5 Alignment - post NCAA Membership

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TyphonInc

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Re: P5 Alignment - post NCAA Membership
« Reply #280 on: March 30, 2018, 07:37:52 AM »
I thought that was the FBS minimum, not P5 or conference minimum.
Reading further, that was the FBS minimum. Now there is no stadium size, and attendance is 15k. Akron and Kent get to that "magic" threshold by having the school by lots of tickets and giving them away.
846badgerfan, propsed upping the attendance to 50 for the P5, and I was noting that we would lose half our conference if that was the case.

847badgerfan

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Re: P5 Alignment - post NCAA Membership
« Reply #281 on: March 30, 2018, 08:08:38 AM »
I thought that was the FBS minimum, not P5 or conference minimum.

You are correct.

Some of our conference members need to pick it up a bit.
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OrangeAfroMan

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Re: P5 Alignment - post NCAA Membership
« Reply #282 on: March 30, 2018, 08:33:17 AM »
Well this past year, the PAC12 and ACC averaged under 50,000, so yeah.  You'd end up with about 35 P5 schools....
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847badgerfan

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Re: P5 Alignment - post NCAA Membership
« Reply #283 on: March 30, 2018, 08:35:01 AM »
Starting to sound more sustainable to me.
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medinabuckeye1

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Re: P5 Alignment - post NCAA Membership
« Reply #284 on: March 30, 2018, 10:25:37 AM »
This surprises me..............

Subsidy from school or student fees:

Rutgers       $33,087,478
Minnesota   $14,817,134
Maryland     $14,473,659
Illinois         $3,281,700
Wisconsin    $2,843,000
Indiana        $2,569,044
Michigan St.   $901,057
Iowa              $650,000
Michigan         $280,647

Purdue, Nebraska, Penn St., & Ohio St.           $0

noted that Michigan gave much more than their amount back - so why take it?
My interpretation is that there is a lot of flexibility in these numbers.  For example, note that Michigan had less athletes than Ohio State (905 vs 1,011) but they "spent" more on scholarships ($25.1M vs $20.1M).  That is simply because Michigan's tuition is higher.  One thing I don't know is, does the Athletic Department get in-state rates for in-state recruits?  My guess is that it would make a BIG difference.  Most of those athletes are not nationally recruited football/basketball stars.  Most of them are local volleyballers, swimmers, runners, etc.  Per a quick google, tuition:
  • Michigan $15k in-state, $47k out-of-state
  • Ohio State $11k in-state, $30k out-of-state
Using the article:
  • Michigan spent $25.1M on 905 athletes = $28k each
  • Ohio State spent $20.1M on 1,011 athletes = $20k each
If I were the chief accountant for either tOSU or Michigan I could pretty easily flex these numbers by either granting the AD in-state tuition for all athletes $13.6M for Michigan, $11.1M for tOSU or charging them out-of-state rates, $42.5M for Michigan, $30.3M for tOSU.  

My guess is that there are plenty of other areas where the people in charge can flex these numbers to make them look the way they want them to look.  Another example is the revenue from selling things like sweatshirts that are not explicitly athletic.  Ie, if @Anonymous Coward buys a sweatshirt that has "Michigan Football" printed on it, that is obviously revenue to the Athletic Department.  However, if he buys a sweatshirt that just has "Michigan" printed on it, I don't know how that is accounted for.  Further, I'm not even sure what would be "fair".  Obviously some buyers of "Michigan" gear are buying it for non-athletic reasons but it is equally obvious that some of those buyers are showing their support for Michigan's football, basketball, and other athletic programs.  How that gets accounted for is something that you'd probably never be able to figure out and if I were in charge of accounting for Michigan or Ohio State I could flex that however I felt I needed to.  

FearlessF

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Re: P5 Alignment - post NCAA Membership
« Reply #285 on: March 30, 2018, 10:53:22 AM »
I would guess the chief accountant on the academic side would hold stiff on out of state athletes and take the added money from the chief accountant on the athletic side

yes, you could obviously play with the numbers, but most academic accounting departments are grasping for every dollar these days

I know it's a huge topic at the University of Nebraska system and the 3 state schools in Iowa

The Hawkeyes don't take much from the academic side, but that would be one of the first places to cut the budget.  Perhaps the U of Iowa does something similar to Michigan

I also know that UNL athletics pours money into the academic side.  Osborne started that decades ago.

Just thankful my daughter doesn't attend Rutgers, Minnesoota, or Maryland
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847badgerfan

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Re: P5 Alignment - post NCAA Membership
« Reply #286 on: March 30, 2018, 10:59:22 AM »
Out of state UW athletes are calculated at the out of state tuition rate, which carries a cost of attendance of $53K/year ($37K tuition). Additional costs would include training, tutoring, etc. I do not have numbers on that stuff.
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Anonymous Coward

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Re: P5 Alignment - post NCAA Membership
« Reply #287 on: March 30, 2018, 11:12:41 AM »
The $200-some-thousand Michigan subsidy is required by the state constitution. It isn't due to Athletic Department need but due to the fact that there is some specific fellowship(s) (or somesuch) within the A.D. that according to state law must come from government dollars. 

At least that's what they say. It makes sense, however, given the teensy subsidy to the AD despite the $4+ MM giveback from the AD to the university.

medinabuckeye1

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Re: P5 Alignment - post NCAA Membership
« Reply #288 on: March 30, 2018, 11:52:30 AM »
Something I think is interesting: we often say that Minnesota was once a fully entrenched helmet and after "a long time" they lost it. But "a long time" doesn't really mean anything without a point of comparison. Absent cataclysm, the length of time it took for a school like Minnesota to lose its status is a flash in the pan compared to what it'll take for a modern helmet to lose its status now.
As a starting point, we don't even really know when Minnesota ceased to be viewed as a "helmet".  
First off:
I've seen a lot of people cite 1967 as "the end" because that was Minnesota's last conference title.  Also, I think these people assume that Minnesota's 1960 NC needs to be included.  However, as I noted above, Minnesota's 1960 NC Claim is particularly weak:  They lost to a mediocre Purdue team, finished as BigTen co-Champ (with Iowa), went to the RoseBowl, and lost to Washington.  In 1960 Minnesota did beat co-champ Iowa but they didn't play the next two best teams (4-2 tOSU and 3-2 MSU).  Further, Minnesota's OOC was terrible.  They beat Nebraska who sucked that year and Kansas State who sucked worse.  
Minnesota's 1967 BigTen Championship is another co-championship.  It was a weird year.  Indiana, Minnesota, and Purdue all finished 6-1.  Ohio State finished 5-2 and the rest of the BigTen all finished below .500.  Purdue was almost certainly the best team in the league that year.  The Boilermakers curb-stomped both Minnesota and Ohio State and lost a close game in Bloomington.  Minnesota curb-stomped Indiana and didn't have to play tOSU.  Indiana also avoided Ohio State.  
I would submit that by the time Minnesota won their last two conference titles in 1960 and 1967 they were already a non-helmet.  Those wins were basically just flash-in-the-pan successes that many non-helmets experience once in a while.  
What is surprising is how abrupt Minnesota's fall was.  I already mentioned Minnesota's back-to-back undefeated and untied conference and national championship seasons in 1940 and 1941.  Additionally, they had:
  • 39: off year
  • 38:  conference title
  • 37:  conference title
  • 36:  tied with tOSU for second behind NU, won NC
  • 35:  conference and national titles
  • 34:  conference and national titles
  • 33:  conference title
  • 30-32:  off years
  • 29:  tied with NU for third behind PU and IL
  • 28:  third behind IL and UW
  • 27:  conference title
As of 1941 the Gophers had six NC's.  Michigan had seven.  Neither Ohio State nor Nebraska had won one yet.  Illinois had four.  

As of 1941 the Gophers had 16 league titles.  Michigan had 15.  Illinois had eight.  Ohio State and Wisconsin had five each.  Iowa had three.  

My point is that Minnesota's success in 40-41 was not a flash-in-the-pan thing.  They were a consistently powerful team basically from the formation of the conference up until the beginning of WWII.  

The war years are a confusing mess.  With draftees leaving and trainees arriving it wasn't unusual for teams to be great one year and terrible the next.  For example, Ohio State went 5-1 in conference and 9-1 overall in winning their first NC in 1942 then went 1-4/3-5 in 1943.  During the war league titles were won by 42: tOSU, 43:  PU and M, 44: tOSU, 45:  IU.  

After the war Michigan quickly resumed being a consistent power (for a short time) but Minnesota simply never came back.  The Wolverines had back-to-back undefeated seasons and conference and national titles in 47-48.  Then they won the next two BigTen titles as well (one shared with tOSU).  Over those same four years Minnesota, who had been every bit of Michigan's equal in the 30's went 3-3, 5-2, 4-2, 1-4-1.  

Here is the thing that I find interesting.  Michigan had their own fall from grace.  From 1951-1968 the Wolverines only won one conference title and no NC's.  BigTen titles over those 18 years:
  • 5:  Ohio State
  • 3:  Wisconsin
  • 3:  Iowa
  • 3:  MSU
  • 3:  Illinois
  • 2:  Minnesota
  • 2:  Purdue
  • 1:  Indiana
  • 1:  Michigan
Michigan obviously recovered strongly with the hiring of Bo in 1969 and his immediate success.  Within a few years Michigan was known as one half of the "BigTwo" while Minnesota was one eighth of the "LittleEight".  Why did Michigan recover while Minnesota did not?  Also note that Michigan's fall from grace and recovery both occurred prior to your 1970 date of helmets being fixed.  

medinabuckeye1

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Re: P5 Alignment - post NCAA Membership
« Reply #289 on: March 30, 2018, 11:54:45 AM »
Something I think is interesting: we often say that Minnesota was once a fully entrenched helmet and after "a long time" they lost it. But "a long time" doesn't really mean anything without a point of comparison. Absent cataclysm, the length of time it took for a school like Minnesota to lose its status is a flash in the pan compared to what it'll take for a modern helmet to lose its status now.
Shorter version of my above post:
There WAS a cataclysm.  When the germans bombed pearl harbor Minnesota was a "helmet".  After WWII ended they never resumed that.  

847badgerfan

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Re: P5 Alignment - post NCAA Membership
« Reply #290 on: March 30, 2018, 12:42:17 PM »
Bo interviewed at Wisconsin before he interviewed with Michigan. Wisconsin professors cocked up that interview so bad, Bo left and never even followed up.

Of course, in that period, Wisconsin was seriously considering shuttering athletics. Only the powerful alumni base prevented it, and 20 years later UW finally hit that home run with Shalala/Richter/Alvarez.

My how things might have been different, eh?
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medinabuckeye1

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Re: P5 Alignment - post NCAA Membership
« Reply #291 on: March 30, 2018, 03:22:30 PM »
Bo interviewed at Wisconsin before he interviewed with Michigan. Wisconsin professors cocked up that interview so bad, Bo left and never even followed up.

Of course, in that period, Wisconsin was seriously considering shuttering athletics. Only the powerful alumni base prevented it, and 20 years later UW finally hit that home run with Shalala/Richter/Alvarez.

My how things might have been different, eh?
They could have been VERY different.  When did Bo interview at Wisconsin, was it the same time between the 68 and 69 seasons?  It is interesting to think of Wisconsin football's surge starting in 1969 instead of 1993.  
The other side of that is Michigan.  I am not convinced that Michigan would ever have recovered if they had screwed up the 1969 hire.  Per my above post, from 1951-1968 Michigan was tied for eighth in the conference in conference titles.  They were tied with Indiana and only ahead of Northwestern.  Over those same 18 years the Wolverines were:
  • 4-12-2 against MSU
  • 6-12 against tOSU
  • 2-5 against Purdue
  • 10-8 against Minnesota
  • 4-3 against Wisconsin
  • 11-7 against Illinois
  • 7-4 against Indiana
  • 7-2-2 against Iowa
  • 12-4 against Northwestern
Given the Rose only rule in effect back then they also only played in one Bowl game, the 1965 RoseBowl against Oregon State.  In Michigan's BigTen Championship year of 1964 they lost at home to Purdue.  Purdue ended up one game behind them due to road losses to both MSU and Minnesota.  It could have easily gone the other way.  

What if Michigan hadn't become the other half of the "BigTwo" in the 70's?  Maybe Wisconsin would have been there instead?  Would Michigan be a "helmet" today?  

847badgerfan

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Re: P5 Alignment - post NCAA Membership
« Reply #292 on: March 30, 2018, 03:27:06 PM »
Here is a small piece on it.

It was 1967 for Bo.

https://www.landof10.com/wisconsin/wisconsin-interviewed-bo-schembechler-and-bob-knight-but-didnt-hire-either

There's a lot more out there too.
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medinabuckeye1

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Re: P5 Alignment - post NCAA Membership
« Reply #293 on: March 30, 2018, 03:49:17 PM »
Here is a small piece on it.

It was 1967 for Bo.

https://www.landof10.com/wisconsin/wisconsin-interviewed-bo-schembechler-and-bob-knight-but-didnt-hire-either

There's a lot more out there too.
Wow, thank you for sharing.  That just blows my mind.  I'm trying to imagine the differences with Bo (starting in 1967) and Bob Knight (starting in 1968) leading Wisconsin's football and basketball programs through the 70's and 80's.  

 

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