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Topic: P5 Alignment - post NCAA Membership

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medinabuckeye1

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Re: P5 Alignment - post NCAA Membership
« Reply #182 on: March 21, 2018, 12:49:27 PM »
I think this is the sacrifice you make with conferences that are too large.  the seven division mates then form the traditional/regional rivalries that the sport thrives on.  And the network gets the content and only negotiates with 5 conferences.
IMHO, the pod system fixes this as best as it can be fixed.  
With a Pod system and a nine game schedule you play:
  • Your three pod-mates every year
  • Your three group-mates every year
  • The other nine teams in the conference every third year (host/travel to every six years).  
For fans of each school it would "feel" like you were in a conference with your pod and group mates.  

Brutus Buckeye

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Re: P5 Alignment - post NCAA Membership
« Reply #183 on: March 21, 2018, 12:50:42 PM »
Wasn't the pod system a colossal failure in the Wac? 
1919, 20, 21, 28, 29, 31, 34, 35, 36, 37, 42, 44
WWH: 1952, 54, 55, 57, 58, 60, 61, 62, 63, 65, 67, 68, 70, 72, 74, 75
1979, 81, 82, 84, 87, 94, 98
2001, 02, 04, 05, 06, 07, 08, 09, 10, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19

847badgerfan

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Re: P5 Alignment - post NCAA Membership
« Reply #184 on: March 21, 2018, 12:52:16 PM »
Three institutions voted no.  The only institution to own up to it for years was IU, however several AD's and prominent coaches were openly against PSU joining due to the fact the negotiations were done very much in secret and only at the president level.  
Delany acknowledged there was "a lot of turmoil" last December over the lack of communication between the Council of Ten and their athletic and faculty representatives.
"I don't think anyone can dispute that. There's been differences of opinion," he said. "Perhaps if we had it to do all over again, we'd use a different process, a process with more consultation. But that's water over the bridge."
https://news.google.com/newspapers?id=8VYrAAAAIBAJ&sjid=_9kEAAAAIBAJ&pg=4454,5055999&dq=penn-state+big-ten+indiana+votes+against&hl=en
https://news.google.com/newspapers?id=8VYrAAAAIBAJ&sjid=_9kEAAAAIBAJ&pg=4454,5055999&dq=penn-state+big-ten+indiana+votes+against&hl=en
« Last Edit: March 21, 2018, 12:57:21 PM by 847badgerfan »
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FearlessF

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Re: P5 Alignment - post NCAA Membership
« Reply #185 on: March 21, 2018, 01:53:43 PM »
IMHO, the pod system fixes this as best as it can be fixed.  
With a Pod system and a nine game schedule you play:
  • Your three pod-mates every year
  • Your three group-mates every year
  • The other nine teams in the conference every third year (host/travel to every six years).  
For fans of each school it would "feel" like you were in a conference with your pod and group mates.  
playing 6 instead of 7 teams each year would be OK
so why not simply put six in a group?  16 or 14 divided by 6 doesn't work
"Courage; Generosity; Fairness; Honor; In these are the true awards of manly sport."

OrangeAfroMan

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Re: P5 Alignment - post NCAA Membership
« Reply #186 on: March 21, 2018, 03:04:33 PM »
IMHO, the pod system fixes this as best as it can be fixed.  
With a Pod system and a nine game schedule you play:
  • Your three pod-mates every year
  • Your three group-mates every year
  • The other nine teams in the conference every third year (host/travel to every six years).  
For fans of each school it would "feel" like you were in a conference with your pod and group mates.  
I'd take the only play your pod-mates every year, while playing everyone else within every 2 years, and 4 home-and-home.  
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

OrangeAfroMan

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Re: P5 Alignment - post NCAA Membership
« Reply #187 on: March 21, 2018, 03:05:34 PM »
Wasn't the pod system a colossal failure in the Wac?
No, their XFL-quality of football members is why it failed.  Oh, and because it was out west, where nobody cares (relatively speaking).
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

Brutus Buckeye

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Re: P5 Alignment - post NCAA Membership
« Reply #188 on: March 21, 2018, 03:16:58 PM »
The Wac was fine before they went to pods. 

The expansion that necessitated the pods was mostly from the SWC. 

It only lasted 3 seasons before the Mountain West split off, which was basically the Wac's 80s line up, only with UNLV and (a little later) TCU in place of Hawaii and UTep.

The Mountain is doing fine, even after losing some marquee members. 
1919, 20, 21, 28, 29, 31, 34, 35, 36, 37, 42, 44
WWH: 1952, 54, 55, 57, 58, 60, 61, 62, 63, 65, 67, 68, 70, 72, 74, 75
1979, 81, 82, 84, 87, 94, 98
2001, 02, 04, 05, 06, 07, 08, 09, 10, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19

Brutus Buckeye

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Re: P5 Alignment - post NCAA Membership
« Reply #189 on: March 21, 2018, 03:27:05 PM »

Frankly the 4-pod Wac rivals only the CFL's ill-advised US expansion as the most short lived revision of a leagues structure in the history of Football. 
1919, 20, 21, 28, 29, 31, 34, 35, 36, 37, 42, 44
WWH: 1952, 54, 55, 57, 58, 60, 61, 62, 63, 65, 67, 68, 70, 72, 74, 75
1979, 81, 82, 84, 87, 94, 98
2001, 02, 04, 05, 06, 07, 08, 09, 10, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19

medinabuckeye1

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Re: P5 Alignment - post NCAA Membership
« Reply #190 on: March 21, 2018, 03:42:13 PM »
playing 6 instead of 7 teams each year would be OK
so why not simply put six in a group?  16 or 14 divided by 6 doesn't work
Exactly, the math doesn't work.  Additionally, the groups are overlapping.  Way upthread I posted this Pod/Group alignment:
Pod/Group   Group1  Group2  Group3  Group4
North Pod    Mich      MSU      PU         NU
East Pod      PSU       UMD     UVA       UNC
West Pod     UNL      Iowa      Wisc      Minny
South Pod    tOSU     RU        IU         IL
  • For Michigan fans, it would "feel like" they were in a conference with MSU, PU, NU, PSU, UNL, and tOSU.  
  • For Michigan State fans, it would "feel like" they were in a conference with M, PU, NU, UMD, IA, and RU.  
  • For PSU fans, it would "feel like" they were in a conference with UMD, UVA, UNC, M, UNL, and tOSU.  

Note the overlap:
  • Michigan "shares" PU and NU with MSU but they do not "share" their group rivals with MSU.  
  • Michigan "shares" UNL and tOSU with PSU but they do not "share" their pod rivals with PSU.  
Things that this accomplishes:
  • Competitive balance:  Each temporary division will have two "helmets" (NE will have M and PSU, NW will have M and UNL, NS will have M and tOSU, SE will have PSU and tOSU, EW will have PSU and UNL, SW will have UNL and tOSU).  
  • Scheduling/ticket sales for all:  Each team will play two "helmets" every year.  They will play the "helmet" in their pod annually and they will also always be paired with another helmet in their temporary division.  It would probably also be possible to arrange it such that each team hosted one "helmet" every year.  Ie, MSU will play Michigan annually so they will host them every other year.  Assuming that MSU continues to host Michigan in even-numbered years then I think you could set it up such that they hosted either PSU, UNL, or tOSU in odd numbered years.  The same would be true for all of the Group 2, 3, and 4 teams.  
  • No team gets placed in an impossibly difficult situation.  In one example above MSU was in a pod with Michigan, Ohio State, and Penn State.  That would make it extremely difficult to ever win a division.  
  • No team gets placed in a ridiculously easy situation, at least not for long.  Last season @ELA  referred to the B1G Championship as the "Badger Invitational".  I know it irked @847badgerfan but the reality is that everybody knew even before the season started that Wisconsin would have to absolutely tank to somehow miss the B1GCG.  Based on this grouping the weakest potential division last year would probably have been SW with 0-9 Illinois, 2-7 MN and IU, 3-6 RU and UNL, and 4-5 IA.  That is bad with six sub .500 teams but that division would also have included 9-0 Wisconsin and 8-1 Ohio State so it would have had a bona-fide championship race and a strong champion (either way).  Ignoring UVA and UNC, the other Division, the NE, would have had a great Championship race between 7-2 PSU, MSU, and NU along with 5-4 contender Michigan.  

Note for @TyphonInc  :
I know you hate this and I understand why but I disagree about getting "saddled with" Indiana.  Indiana hasn't typically been very good but they are a border state and the games in Bloomington are easy for Ohio State fans to get to.  IMHO, the only every-year opponent for Ohio State that I wouldn't be happy about is Rutgers.  The others:
  • Michigan:  THE GAME, no more needs to be said.  
  • Penn State:  Border state, traditional "helmet", this is great, IMHO.  
  • Nebraska:  Lincoln is FAR away (I know, I drove it) and obviously the Cornhuskers are not a historic rival but they are a historic "helmet" and I like this rivalry.  
  • Illinois:  The Illibuck trophy.  Nobody outside Columbus cares but up until a few years ago Illinois was Ohio State's longest-running annual series.  Illinois is Ohio State's second most frequent opponent and the only team other than Michigan that the Buckeyes have played more than 100 times.  
  • Indiana:  Border State, easy to get to away games (the nickname "Horseshoe West" is apt when Ohio State visits Indiana.  

None of us are going to get everything we want so I'd be thrilled with five out of six of Ohio State's annual rivals making geographic, competitive, or historic sense.  

Honestly, I think the two schools that get screwed the most in this hypothetical set-up are MSU and Iowa.  They get stuck with two eastern schools (RU and UMD) in their group.  Everybody else only has one.  

847badgerfan

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Re: P5 Alignment - post NCAA Membership
« Reply #191 on: March 21, 2018, 06:38:37 PM »
I want UW to play OSU, UNL, UM, MSU, Iowa, Minnie, IL, IN, PU and IU every year in conference, and I want PSU OOC every other year.
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TyphonInc

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Re: P5 Alignment - post NCAA Membership
« Reply #192 on: March 21, 2018, 08:11:12 PM »
Note for @TyphonInc  :
I know you hate this and I understand why but I disagree about getting "saddled with" Indiana.  Indiana hasn't typically been very good but they are a border state and the games in Bloomington are easy for Ohio State fans to get to.  IMHO, the only every-year opponent for Ohio State that I wouldn't be happy about is Rutgers.  The others:
  • Michigan:  THE GAME, no more needs to be said.  
  • Penn State:  Border state, traditional "helmet", this is great, IMHO.  
  • Nebraska:  Lincoln is FAR away (I know, I drove it) and obviously the Cornhuskers are not a historic rival but they are a historic "helmet" and I like this rivalry.  
  • Illinois:  The Illibuck trophy.  Nobody outside Columbus cares but up until a few years ago Illinois was Ohio State's longest-running annual series.  Illinois is Ohio State's second most frequent opponent and the only team other than Michigan that the Buckeyes have played more than 100 times.  
  • Indiana:  Border State, easy to get to away games (the nickname "Horseshoe West" is apt when Ohio State visits Indiana.  

None of us are going to get everything we want so I'd be thrilled with five out of six of Ohio State's annual rivals making geographic, competitive, or historic sense.  

Honestly, I think the two schools that get screwed the most in this hypothetical set-up are MSU and Iowa.  They get stuck with two eastern schools (RU and UMD) in their group.  Everybody else only has one.  
@medinabuckeye1
I don't "hate" getting saddled with IU, (even in my geographic pod scenario, I had IU and Ill in OSU's Pod.)

But, I don't like having 3 cup cakes as OSU permanent Pod mates.

And, I don't like adding a 5th East Coast team, causing a non-geographic displacement to become a Pod Member.

Also, I’m not anti Virginia, they would be a great addition to the conference, but I don’t see much of a difference between them and Virginia Tech. Virginia is a top 5 undergrad university, but the B1G has shown a fondness towards Graduate Research and Athletics over undergrad performance; and in those 2 categories I would argue that Tech is the same (Research) or better (Football.) I also think it’s easier to sway a school who has only been in a conference 14 years to change than one who has been there 65. If I’m on the board looking for potential new conference affiliates I’m taking the one that meets academic requirements and has a passionate Football fan Base (ie. Tech.) Both both are wonderful Institutions and the B1G would benefit from their addition.

Can we drop Rutgers?

Question: Do the groups you propose ever change or is this Group/Pod set up permanent? I’m going to assert that you can’t have 4 continuous Kings in a conference. We will have the Tennessee effect, they got stuck playing Alabama every year and has Alabama has become a Titan (Something bigger than a King) Tennessee has fallen, big time. If we force the Historical Kings to keep playing each other one or more will fall from grace.

In my setup you have 3 geographic pods, and 3 performance pods. If One or Two of them they fall from grace, they don’t continue to be OSU’s (or whoever’s) punching bag. In my Performance Pod that resets every 6 years, you take the actual best performing teams and have them playing each other. I think that is what America would rather see that (or learn to) than to see a washed up helmet clinging to glory while getting pounded on the field week in and week out (a la Tennessee.)



FearlessF

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Re: P5 Alignment - post NCAA Membership
« Reply #193 on: March 22, 2018, 09:42:21 AM »
Exactly, the math doesn't work.  Additionally, the groups are overlapping.  Way upthread I posted this Pod/Group alignment:
so, bear with my lack of comprehension
do 6 teams play each other annually?
I understand the significance of "the game" and other traditional rivalries being "protected", but I'm all for as many teams as possible playing annually to continue rivalries and develop new rivalries.
If playing 9 conference games, a ten team conference would be best.  All teams every season.
Ten conference games would be better.
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medinabuckeye1

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Re: P5 Alignment - post NCAA Membership
« Reply #194 on: March 22, 2018, 10:13:02 AM »
@medinabuckeye1
I don't "hate" getting saddled with IU, (even in my geographic pod scenario, I had IU and Ill in OSU's Pod.)

But, I don't like having 3 cup cakes as OSU permanent Pod mates.
I get this, but I think that having M, PSU, and UNL as "group-mates" makes up for having RU, IU, and IL as "pod-mates".  

medinabuckeye1

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Re: P5 Alignment - post NCAA Membership
« Reply #195 on: March 22, 2018, 10:15:14 AM »
And, I don't like adding a 5th East Coast team, causing a non-geographic displacement to become a Pod Member.
FWIW:  This isn't so much my preference as it is my theory of what Big Jim wants.  If you look west the obvious addition would be Mizzou and when they practically begged for an invite Big Jim gave them the cold shoulder.  With the possible exception of OU/TX no team west of us makes more sense than Mizzou so my thinking is that if Big Jim didn't want Mizzou he doesn't want any western additions.  

 

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