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Topic: OT - Weird History

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Cincydawg

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #798 on: July 01, 2022, 09:40:50 AM »
502 years ago today in 1520, Hernán Cortés and around 1000 Spanish soldiers are driven out of the Aztec capital of Tenochtitlan, barely escaping and losing 2/3rds of their men in an event known as La Noche Triste (The Sad Night).
Cortés landed in Mexico in 1519 without permission from his superiors in search of gold and glory. Fortunately for him, the Aztec’s brutal rule over the land allowed him to receive crucial support from 10,000’s of native peoples. The Aztec ruler Montezuma II first tried to buy off the Spanish with gold. He then brought Cortés and his soldiers to the capital where the Spaniards lived as his guests for several months until they made the Aztec leader a prisoner in his own palace. Montezuma continued to govern his empire with Spanish influence greatly upsetting his people.
In early June, Cortés left the city to deal with a Spanish force that came to arrest him. He was able to surprise and kill its leader. Cortés then told the defeated soldiers about the riches of Tenochtitlan and they agreed to join him reinforcing his total strength. Along with this reinforcement of fresh European troops, a larger number of Native allies would join Cortés on his return to Tenochtitlan.  While he was gone, the Spanish garrison with Montezuma obtained information that the Aztecs were about to attack them and carried out preemptive slaughter of Aztec nobles and priests celebrating a festival in the city's main temple. The Aztecs laid siege to the palace and when Cortés returned, he forced Montezuma to address his people and tell them to let the Spanish leave in peace. But the Aztecs threw rocks at him and elected a new leader, and continuous fighting would occur exhausting the Spanish supplies.
After promising a ceasefire and to return the treasure, on the night of July 1st the Spanish carrying as much loot as they could quietly began to leave the city on an unguarded bridge/causeway. But they were noticed and the alarm sounded, 50,000 Aztecs swarmed on the Spanish and their native allies. During the Spaniards’ retreat, they lost 2/3rds of their European soldiers, including their skilled ship builder. But two weeks later the Spaniards managed to defeat a larger Aztec army at the battle of Otumba and were able to link up with native Tlaxcaltec allies. Almost a year later in May 1521, Cortés returned to Tenochtitlan and placed it under siege for 3 months until it was captured.  After the fall of their capital Tenochtitlan and execution of their emperor, the Aztec empire faded, and Cortés became the ruler of the vast Mexican empire soon called New Spain.


FearlessF

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #799 on: July 01, 2022, 09:54:32 AM »
THIS DAY IN HISTORY: 

Battle of Gettysburg Begins (1863)
The Battle of Gettysburg was the bloodiest battle of the American Civil War, resulting in some 50,000 casualties in three days. It took place in and around the town of Gettysburg, Pennsylvania, and signaled a turning of the tide in favor of the Union. The site is now a national cemetery, at whose dedication on November 19, 1863, President Abraham Lincoln delivered the Gettysburg Address. Seamstress Ginnie Wade was the only documented civilian casualty of the battle.
"Courage; Generosity; Fairness; Honor; In these are the true awards of manly sport."

Cincydawg

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #800 on: July 01, 2022, 10:10:35 AM »
It reminds me in some ways of the battle of Kursk in 1943.  Neither the Germans nor the Confederates were able to mount much of an offensive after that, Battle of the Bulge arguably excepted.  And Vicksburg also fell which cut the latter in half.  That was also a major event, and put Grant in charge eventually.


MrNubbz

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #801 on: July 01, 2022, 11:51:10 AM »
Suburbia:Where they tear out the trees & then name streets after them.

medinabuckeye1

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #802 on: July 01, 2022, 12:02:47 PM »
THIS DAY IN HISTORY:

Battle of Gettysburg Begins (1863)
The Battle of Gettysburg was the bloodiest battle of the American Civil War, resulting in some 50,000 casualties in three days. It took place in and around the town of Gettysburg, Pennsylvania, and signaled a turning of the tide in favor of the Union. The site is now a national cemetery, at whose dedication on November 19, 1863, President Abraham Lincoln delivered the Gettysburg Address. Seamstress Ginnie Wade was the only documented civilian casualty of the battle.
The site is worth a visit and if you want to combine it with a football trip, it isn't far from the University of Maryland. Civil War battlefields, however, are best viewed at the same time of year as the battle, you get a better feel for it that way.

I think that Gettysburg may be somewhat overhyped as a "turning point" in that I don't think it turned the tide so much as it reflected that the tide had been turned by Northern advantages in population and industrial capacity. 

That said, Gettysburg was the last real chance that the Confederacy had to achieve independence on the battlefield. 

MrNubbz

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #803 on: July 01, 2022, 12:17:44 PM »
That A-Hole Dan Sickles  almost singlehandedly got himself killed and and II Corp wiped out and and almost lost the battle on the 2nd day as he moved his men out of the Peach Orchard exposing union flanks.The real crime is he went back to Washington,sans his leg and told Lincoln and anyone else that would listen how Meade faffed things up and he saved the day.When in fact the exact opposite was true.George Gordon Meade never got the credit that he deserved. Six months earlier at Fredricksburg on the Union's far left he for a time took some small units and actually was rolling up Stonewall Jackson Brigade but Burnside was getting his troops destroyed repeatedly on the other side going up marye's Heights.Had Burnside supported Meade who was a topographical engineer who knows how things would have went.Had either Burnside or Sickles both been killed in '62 the war could have ended sooner - they were both that bad
Suburbia:Where they tear out the trees & then name streets after them.

Cincydawg

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #804 on: July 01, 2022, 12:25:07 PM »
That said, Gettysburg was the last real chance that the Confederacy had to achieve independence on the battlefield.
I think this is true.  In my alternate history, I had Jackson present on Day One and he managed to take the heights above the town, but Meade just put everyone at Pipe Creek, which was a very defensible position.  Jackson's corps was too beat up to follow quickly.

The North had a lot of poor generals, the south had some but not as bad and not in as critical positions usually.

Lincoln aged greatly.

medinabuckeye1

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #805 on: July 01, 2022, 01:48:52 PM »
I think this is true.  In my alternate history, I had Jackson present on Day One and he managed to take the heights above the town, but Meade just put everyone at Pipe Creek, which was a very defensible position.  Jackson's corps was too beat up to follow quickly.

The North had a lot of poor generals, the south had some but not as bad and not in as critical positions usually.

Lincoln aged greatly.
Lee's decision to launch Pickett's Charge has been roundly criticized ever since the battle starting with his subordinate Generals pretty much unanimously opposing the idea. From a tactical perspective these criticisms are and Lee's subordinates were right, it was a terrible mistake for which the Confederacy paid a horrific price.

That said, I think that Lee was right to send the Charge on a strategic level. At that point in the war the Union was gaining strength while the Confederacy was loosing strength. Thus, there was simply never going to be a better opportunity for the Confederates. The odds of Pickett's Charge succeeding were long but the odds of success in later campaigns would necessarily be longer. Ie, their chances weren't good but they were getting worse every month.

Pickett himself was strongly opposed to the Charge which is ironic since it has been known ever since by his name.

Cincydawg

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #806 on: July 01, 2022, 01:51:28 PM »
Longstreet apparently advocated for a flanking move.  I think Lee, missing Jackson, was unsure of that approach now.  He liked to use Longstreet as the anvil but he had no Jackson.  I think it was lost on the first day, not the third.  The third just made it official.

Then Meade as usual was very slow to follow up when Lee finally pulled out (it was raining).


medinabuckeye1

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #807 on: July 01, 2022, 02:47:16 PM »
Then Meade as usual was very slow to follow up when Lee finally pulled out (it was raining).
For years I wanted to know more about this.

Background for those unfamiliar (of which I understand that you, @Cincydawg are not one):

At Gettysburg the Union line was actually South of the Confederate line because the Union Army had come up (North) from DC to contest Lee's invasion.

Thus, once the battle ended it would have been theoretically possible for Meade and the Union Army to trap the Confederate Army of Northern Virginia in Pennsylvania and disconnected from their supply lines. Had this been successfully accomplished the Army of Northern Virginia could have been destroyed (nearly everyone either killed or captured) and the war may well have ended in 1862.

Meade has been criticized ever since for failing to grasp this strategic opportunity. The criticism started immediately with President Lincoln supposedly saying that "He (Meade) had the Confederate Army in the palm of his hand and failed to grasp it." Later, political opponents of Meade in Congress latched on and historians even today frequently advance some form of the same basic arguments.

I always wanted to know more because it is frequently presented as such an obvious opportunity that one has to wonder how Meade could possibly have failed to see it.

Several years ago I read Retreat from Gettysburg: Lee, Logistics, and the Pennsylvania Campaign by Kent Masterson Brown. Link: 
https://www.amazon.com/Retreat-Gettysburg-Logistics-Pennsylvania-Campaign/dp/0807872091

I warn all that this is a tedious read.

The gist of what I learned was this:
  • Lee had done a good deal of preparation for the possibility of being forced to retreat so his lines of communication and retreat were reasonably well protected.
  • There were a few skirmishes along these lines that are nearly unknown to history in which relatively small groups of well armed and entrenched Confederates were able to maintain Confederate control of some key mountain passes. While these are largely forgotten and seemingly minor, if their results had been reversed that outcome could have been catastrophic for the Army of Northern Virginia.
  • While the Confederates had suffered grievously the Federals had taken plenty of casualties as well and while the Confederates were critically low on ammunition and other supplies the Union had supply issues of their own.
  • To be fair to Meade, he was acutely aware of his own problems but could only guess at Lee's. In retrospect nearly any signifigant Union attack on July 4th or shortly thereafter would have been successful because the Confederates would have exhausted their ammunition against the first wave then been relegated to a bayonette line. I know that 160 years later but Meade didn't know that then.
  • Lee's orders for the retreat were quick and were executed very well. Lee and his subordinate Generals knew that they needed to GTFO and they did so quite competently.
  • Meade was understandably and to some extent justifiably cautious. He knew that he had won an important victory and he didn't want to spoil that by getting overextended chasing Lee and losing an equally important battle.


Cincydawg

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #808 on: July 01, 2022, 03:33:37 PM »
The Potomac was also at flood stage, and it was raining.

Lee Escapes from Gettysburg | HistoryNet

This is a pretty good summary I think.  I'm reminded a bit of the first battle of Bull Run when the Union army was fleeing, and the rebels were so disorganized they couldn't follow.


medinabuckeye1

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #809 on: July 01, 2022, 04:01:18 PM »
The Potomac was also at flood stage, and it was raining.

Lee Escapes from Gettysburg | HistoryNet

This is a pretty good summary I think.  I'm reminded a bit of the first battle of Bull Run when the Union army was fleeing, and the rebels were so disorganized they couldn't follow.
That was a pretty good and fair assessment. It mentions many of Meade's issues. The book I linked above is, more-or-less, a book-length version of that article. 

FearlessF

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #810 on: July 02, 2022, 08:59:19 AM »
Masada is a mountaintop fortress in Israel. According to the ancient historian Josephus, it was fortified by Herod the Great in the 1st century BCE. In 66 CE, at the beginning of the Jewish uprising against the Romans, a group of rebels captured Masada. They retained control of the fortress until 73 CE, when, besieged by the Romans, they committed mass suicide rather than surrender. Excavated in the 1950s and 60s, Masada is now a major tourist attraction.
"Courage; Generosity; Fairness; Honor; In these are the true awards of manly sport."

FearlessF

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #811 on: July 02, 2022, 09:00:38 AM »
THIS DAY IN HISTORY: 

Revolt Aboard the Amistad (1839)
In 1839, 53 African slaves being transported on the Spanish merchant ship La Amistad revolted against their captors. Having gained control of the ship, they demanded that the navigator set a course for Africa. However, he deceived them and sailed the ship northward until it was intercepted by the US Navy off the coast of New York. After a widely publicized court battle, the Supreme Court ruled that the Africans were not legally slaves and ordered them freed.
"Courage; Generosity; Fairness; Honor; In these are the true awards of manly sport."

 

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