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Topic: OT - Weird History

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Cincydawg

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #4746 on: May 06, 2025, 11:58:47 AM »
His name is rarely remembered — yet without him, there would be no algebra, no algorithms.  (Someone else would have come up with it of course.)
In the bustling 9th century, amidst the golden sands of the Abbasid Caliphate, a Persian scholar named al-Khwārizmī quietly laid the foundation for the modern world.
Drawing from Greek and Indian knowledge, al-Khwārizmī went further.
In one of his groundbreaking treatises, he taught how to solve real-world problems — inheritance, trade, land disputes.
No cryptic symbols. No intimidating equations.
Just clear, simple language that anyone could understand.

From that text came a word: al-jabr, meaning “restoration” or “reunion.”
Centuries later, that word would evolve into something we all know today: algebra.

But his impact didn’t stop there.
In another revolutionary work, he explained the Indian decimal system — a concept that would eventually replace Roman numerals and become the numerical foundation of the modern world.
When his writings reached Europe, his name was Latinized.
Al-Khwārizmī became Algorithmi.

And just like that, the word algorithm was born.
A humble Persian scholar planted a seed that centuries later would blossom into mathematics, computer science — and even the very social media platforms we scroll today.
Sometimes the pillars of the future are quietly built…
by hands that history barely whispers.




medinabuckeye1

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #4747 on: May 06, 2025, 12:05:10 PM »
One thing Guderian points out that I think is likely true is that the Germans tanks had worn out their treads (and their engines were about shot) by August 1941.  Tanks aren't usually meant to traverse such distances on their own, they are meant to travel on rail cars.  So, they aren't designed to operate on "Russian distances".  This is true with modern tanks as well.

So, by August, with great weather, the German Panzer units were highly depleted of usable tanks.  I think the ToE for a Panzer division was 400 tanks (panzers) and most were under 100 by then that were operable.  That's another form of logistics they didn't seem to consider.
So imagine you are the guy in charge of supply:

Barbarossa starts with ~3.8 MILLION troops.  

Just for discussion, ignore the actual war part of it for a minute.  Simply feeding 3.8 Million men most of whom are young with the high metabolism that young guys have.  Remember how much food you ate at 18-22?  Now remember that these guys are walking and fighting then multiply it by 3.8 Million.  

Just feeding the guys is a staggering task.  

Then, for every mile that the front line advances into Russia the Railroad Round Trip necessary to deliver the food increases by two miles.  

Now add fuel then more fuel in winter due to the need to keep vehicles running to prevent the oil from freezing.  

Now add ammunition.  

Now add replacement tank treads.  

Now add replacement tank engines.  

Now add other random tank and other vehicle parts.  

Now add winter clothing.  

Then remember that by early December of 1941 the Germans were in the Crimea, they were at the gates of Moscow, and they had Leningrad surrounded.  This line is hundreds of miles from where they started and even farther from Germany itself.  Every train carrying supplies to the troops at this line has to make that trip both ways for each delivery.  

They simply couldn't do it.  

Cincydawg

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #4748 on: May 06, 2025, 12:07:57 PM »
It's astonishing they did as well as they did.

Just to send however many millions of humans that far in a few months even without any fighting ... just keeping them fed.

Not all of them were on the front lines of course.  But take a million humans and figure they each need 20 pounds of stuff a day ...


Cincydawg

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #4749 on: May 06, 2025, 12:09:09 PM »


Kind of pertinent to the Germans attacking Russia in a way.

MikeDeTiger

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #4750 on: May 06, 2025, 12:12:19 PM »
Then remember that by early December of 1941 the Germans were in the Crimea, they were at the gates of Moscow, and they had Leningrad surrounded.  This line is hundreds of miles from where they started and even farther from Germany itself.  Every train carrying supplies to the troops at this line has to make that trip both ways for each delivery. 

They simply couldn't do it. 

Sounds like the Germans were Bobby Fischer and the Russians were Garry Kasparov.  The latter of which is fitting, I guess.  

Cincydawg

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #4751 on: May 06, 2025, 12:27:46 PM »

Gigem

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #4752 on: May 06, 2025, 01:23:22 PM »
I always found it ....weird...that the Germans were "unprepared" for the cold of Russia.  As if Germany was some sort of tropical paradise itself.  As a fairly untraveled American imagine my surprise one day when I was looking at a projection of the globe and compared the latitudes of most of Europe with that of America.  Spain and Italy being the southernmost country.  Germany is basically equivalent to Canada, I guess Russia would be equivalent to very northern Canada.  Being a southern Texas guy, it's easy to just brush off the differences in cold, because it so rarely gets very cold here, it all seems the same.  


Cincydawg

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #4753 on: May 06, 2025, 01:32:21 PM »
I always found it ....weird...that the Germans were "unprepared" for the cold of Russia.  
They were unprepared because they thought the war would be over before winter.  And as discussed above, it was a major hurdle to gets beans and bullets to front line troops.

The German motorized and Panzer divisions needed a lot of oil and gas to keep them "mobile", and their engines weren't designed for -40°C weather.

Quite a bit of German supplies were delivered using horses.

Gigem

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #4754 on: May 06, 2025, 01:35:20 PM »
They were unprepared because they thought the war would be over before winter.  And as discussed above, it was a major hurdle to gets beans and bullets to front line troops.

The German motorized and Panzer divisions needed a lot of oil and gas to keep them "mobile", and their engines weren't designed for -40°C weather.

Quite a bit of German supplies were delivered using horses.
You missed my point entirely.  My point being that to me, Germany is basically at the same Latitude as Canada.  It would be like saying that someone from S Texas was unprepared for the heat and humidity, when I've lived here my whole life.  

It seems more appropriate to me to say that the Germans didn't plan on the battle going into winter (despite needing to occupy that area indefinitely) so they just didn't pack anything for it.  Which is I guess pretty much the same thing.  

Gigem

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #4755 on: May 06, 2025, 02:44:08 PM »
The "V2" doesn't stand for version 2 rocket, it is "Vengeance Weapon 2".  Vengeance Weapon 1 was a jet powered missile. 

The V1 was fast but the allies had fighters fast enough that they could and sometimes did shoot them down in flight.  Literally it's ONLY defense was speed.  It didn't evade at all because it wasn't piloted so if you could get into the right place to intercept it, it could be shot down.  The main counter argument to this is that it really made no difference.  Once the USSR survived the initial onslaught and the US got involved, the Germans simply had no chance.  If you look at production figures the British more-or-less matched German production.  Soviet production was substantially higher than German/British and US Production dwarfed all of that.  Nothing the Germans could have done would have been enough to dig them out of that hole.  Blitzkreig didn't stop working.  Essentially it is modern mechanized warfare as it is still practiced today.  The problem for the Germans wasn't that it stopped working it was two things:
  • Everybody else caught up, and
  • Scale. 

The scale issue is the most fascinating thing about WWII to me.  When Germany invaded France in 1940 they had ~2,500 tanks.  Three years later they had ~3,000 tanks at the Battle of Kursk and that was just one battle on the Eastern Front and they were easily outnumbered by superior Soviet Tanks.  Two years after that the Soviets hit Berlin with more than 6,000 tanks.  Ie, the Soviets had more tanks facing just the City of Berlin in 1945 than the Germans had facing the entire nation of France five years earlier. 

The Germans simply couldn't keep up with the expansion in scale. 


One thing about the German army of WWII that most people don't realize is that it wasn't all that mechanized.  They had highly mechanized units at the tip of the spear but the vast majority of the German troops that went into the Soviet Union walked and most of their gear was carried by wagons pulled by animals.  In the US, UK, and USSR armies of 1945 not only was the tip of the spear mechanized, the entire army was mechanized with Studebaker Trucks (including for the Soviets) handling the logistics. 
I forgot it was called Vengeance weapon, but my point stands.  V2 rocket was the first one, it was the precursor to modern ICBM's.  It was mentioned how the range was limited by only being a single stage, there was no launch tower like modern rockets have and you'd need all that infrastructure to fuel and load a rocket of larger size.  

V1 was basically a cruise missile, they called it the buzz bomb.  


Agree on Blitzkreig, it's not that it stopped working, it's that the rest of the world figured out how to defend it.  
Agree on everything else, it's just interesting the way it worked out.  

One more thing, the Russians/Soviets can and did sacrifice millions more soldiers than any other Army willingly would.  They basically used their soldiers as sacrificial lambs, there is a video somewhere that drastically illustrates the losses the Red Army endured.  Off memory, the US suffered something like 200,000 casualties in WWII (I may be thinking total casualties, not deaths).  Germans were like 2 million, Britain 500,000.  It's been awhile, so forgive me if I'm misremembering.  
Soviets lost like 30,000,000.  Many, many more times the number.  

Gigem

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #4756 on: May 06, 2025, 02:49:11 PM »
This is actually fascinating to me so I'll expand on it:
The allies (almost all British) didn't actually shoot the V1's down so much as literally tip them over.  The problem was that the V1 had a very large warhead and if you shot at the missile you could detonate the warhead which could result in the destruction of your aircraft (and perhaps even your death) because in order to shoot at it effectively you had to be behind it and flying towards it so when it blew up, you unavoidably flew right through the blast. 

They somehow figured out that the V1's guidance system couldn't self-correct from a rollover.  Thus, the preferred method to take them out was to put your wing under the V1 wing which would increase the lift on that side and then basically "flip" it over.  At that point it's guidance system failed and it crashed. 
When you say "somehow figured out" you have to imagine that some aviator just watched another plane get swallowed up in the explosion from shooting one down and said "eff that" and then decided to try something new.  Maybe he saw one get tipped over on another flight or something, but someone had to be the first to nudge it with their wing.  Imagine the balls on that guy to try that.  

Cincydawg

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #4757 on: May 06, 2025, 02:52:25 PM »
The average low T in Berlin in january is 30°F or so, in Moscow it's 15°F.  It was unusually cold in early 1942 near Moscow.

The 1941-1942 winter in Moscow was exceptionally cold, known as the coldest European winter of the 20th century. Minimum temperatures in the Moscow area during late 1941 were reported as -8.2°C (17°F) in October, -17.3°C (1°F) in November, and -28.8°C (-20°F) in December. General Fedor von Bock reported a temperature of -45°C (-49°F) on November 30, 1941, according to Wikipedia. The winter was characterized by below-average temperatures from early January to late March 1942. 

Cincydawg

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #4758 on: May 06, 2025, 02:58:00 PM »
The Germans didn't use the term "blitzkrieg" to describe their tactics, which we now term "combined arms warfare", just basic coordination between air, artillery, armor, and mobile forces.  Some prewar Brits like Fuller had pushed the concept and some younger German generals paid attention.  Part of the concept also was simply going around any strong points and letting slower less mobile infantry units deal with them later when they were not supplied as well.  

Stalingrad of course is a case in point as to when you use your mobile forces up in urban combat situations where mobility is of little tactical value.  The Russians were not at all prepared for the attack in the south in 1942 and the Germans rolled up a lot of mileage with virtually no resistance and were close to securing the oil fields which would have probably been "it".  They could have walled off Stalingrad and secured their flanks and pushed hard into Maikop etc.

The Russians basically later countered "blitzkrieg" with just massive force.

medinabuckeye1

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #4759 on: May 06, 2025, 03:12:30 PM »
I always found it ....weird...that the Germans were "unprepared" for the cold of Russia.  As if Germany was some sort of tropical paradise itself.  As a fairly untraveled American imagine my surprise one day when I was looking at a projection of the globe and compared the latitudes of most of Europe with that of America.  Spain and Italy being the southernmost country.  Germany is basically equivalent to Canada, I guess Russia would be equivalent to very northern Canada.  Being a southern Texas guy, it's easy to just brush off the differences in cold, because it so rarely gets very cold here, it all seems the same. 
[img width=500 height=257.997]https://i.imgur.com/On4Pi4k.png[/img]
The Gulf Stream coming from the newly renamed Gulf of America causes temperatures in Western Europe to be considerably warmer than temperatures at the same Latitude in Eastern North America.  I'm just eyeballing here but Berlin appears to be at roughly the same Latitude as Saskatoon, Alberta.  But if you look at Wiki's climate section (I just did three months here):
January mean daily high (F):
  • 37.8 Berlin
  • 14.9 Saskatoon
May mean daily high:
  • 67.3 Berlin
  • 65.3 Saskatoon

September mean daily high:
  • 67.6 Berlin
  • 66.9 Saskatoon
The all-time record low in Berlin is -13.5.  The record in Saskatoon . . .-51.  


 

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